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Author Topic: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)  (Read 55878 times)

Hywel

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2015, 09:46:53 am »

The new Phase looks like it has some interesting innovations.

I like the "wait until the vibrations have calmed down, then fire the leaf shutter" release mode, for example, and the ability to specify allowable ranges of shutter speed, aperture and ISO in auto modes would be useful for me.

The Profoto flash integration would be super-useful if I'd invested in Profoto flash instead of Hensel!

The touch screen interface I'm not so convinced by, I like clicky things I can feel with the camera to my eye, but without playing with the camera I don't know if the design would work for me or not.

Personally I'm so used to focus-and-recompose that I'm fine with just one focus point. Does it do the Hasselblad trick of compensating for the recompose using the gyro info to keep focus where it should be?

Faster leaf shutters are always good, and I'm sure the lenses will be kick-ass.

I like that the camera looks like it'll be more tightly integrated, more of a dSLR shooting experience- that's why I went the Hasselblad route when I took the plunge into MF.

So all in all, I'll certainly consider the Phase if and when my Hasselblad doesn't cut the mustard any more, which I'm sure it won't in a few years.

BUT. But. But. The price differential between the Phase (and current Hasselblad and Leica offerings) and the Pentax 645Z just can't be ignored...

I do use the leaf shutter plus flash to overpower daylight, and it is a powerful feature... but even for me I'm not sure it would be worth the factor of 3+ in price.

Put another way, the Pentax I could get on a one-year loan/lease and be confident of paying it off comfortably, with business I'm pretty sure I'm going to get.

The Phase would be a three year. That's a hell of a commitment in uncertain times.

Or, given the choice between Phase outfit or Pentax outfit AND complete Canon 5DS outfit with pretty much any lenses your heart desires, plus a new car to drive them all around in thrown in for good measure... I'd be really struggling to pick the Phase.

We won't know until there are some out in the wild, but it looks like Phase have produced a nice camera. What it isn't (for me at least) is any sort of revolution. It's a few nice things added but a hell of a price, so when I do upgrade my MF kit I'll look at it but the value proposition may not be there for my particular business. YMMV of course!

Hywel


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Paul2660

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2015, 10:00:12 am »

Auto iso on CMOS is fine, auto iso on CCD, to me not so fine.  Any CCD back from Phase is pretty much base iso plus 1 stop, so on a 260/360 for example this would be 50 to 100.  If the camera picks say 400 or even 800, then you will be more than likely disappointed as there is just no enough range in the CCD to get there.  Sure if you go to sensor plus you can get a pretty nice shot, but I don't think the camera is going to ask, "do you want to go to sensor plus for this", it would be a nice feature if it did.  So to the auto iso is great feature for the 350 and the 250 if the feature works on the older 250.  Here you can safely push to even iso 1600 without a massive loss in image quality.

I refer to outdoor work, in studio with lighting, you may work fine with iso 400 from a CCD back, personally by 400 I am seeing way too much noise and considerable loss in color fidelity especially if the back is warm.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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Doug Peterson

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2015, 10:58:50 am »

Auto ISO can be easily limited. You could hard limit it to 200 or even 100 max.

Just tap on ISO and turn the dial next to the "max ISO" number.

On most cameras this would be several menus deep.

Doug Peterson

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2015, 11:20:41 am »

The Profoto flash integration would be super-useful if I'd invested in Profoto flash instead of Hensel!

Stick a Profoto Air receiver on your Hensel and now you're integrated :).

Weldon Brewster

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2015, 11:43:44 am »

My only feedback is some type of carbon fiber vertical grip the integrates the second release button on the body.  Also, the explanation I heard on the new auto focus system is very different than the assumptions made by members of this forum.  Perhaps someone smarter than me can fully explain it to the public.

That's great to hear Weldon! We are very proud and excited about the new camera and appreciate any feedback!

BR

Yair
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Paul2660

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2015, 11:46:59 am »

Auto ISO can be easily limited. You could hard limit it to 200 or even 100 max.

Just tap on ISO and turn the dial next to the "max ISO" number.

On most cameras this would be several menus deep.

I assumed it could be limited, but for a 50 to 100 limit on CCD not worth too much as you can recover that in post.  Where it plays I believe is with the 350, and hopefully the users of 250's can gain this also.  IMO bigger deal for CMOS.

Paul
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synn

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2015, 12:45:17 pm »

BC,

Thanks for being the devil's advocate.  :)

Those are definitely valid points, but there are some reasons why I am strongly considering the upgrade.

 - I am moving more towards fine art work than portraiture these days. This sort of work benefits greatly from a waist level finder. I am not ready yet to move to a tech camera platform (And certainly not to pay Rodenstock tax) and this is the next best solution.

- I don't put much stock into the "Only one point" pessimist argument here. First of all, they mention a "Focus area", not a "Focus point". It seems to be a different type of AF tech that is best judged after first hand use (And yes, if it doesn't offer a big advantage over the current AF system, I might rethink the purchase strongly. The next thing is that my D800 has 51 AF points and not once have I taken full advantage of it. I prefer to move a small cluster of AF points around. There are people who want and need that, my style just doesnt demand it.

- My only serious complaint about the DF+ is the insipid way in which menus are implemented. I can't remember the custom functions EVER and need to refer the manual each time. The dial rotates by accident often and one realizes this only after a few shots. The XF brings with it a very intuitive UI and that matters a LOT in daily use, more than specs on paper. (Again, need to use to know first hand, but seems positive, judging from the current reports). Also, simple things like the same battery working for the body and back counts for less frustrations in daily use. May not matter to all, it does to me.

Lastly, I am not paying five figures for the upgrade as you suggest in your post. It's a body to body upgrade, while keeping my current back. That's hardly RED money (Incidentally, as much as I know how much you love your RED, I have less than zero interest in video and thus, don't measure the perceived value of a stills camera system by comparing it to video systems). Also, the price is pretty comparable to the Hasselblad body with the prism, not a 2k difference as you suggest.

P.S. It is not a Contax without a right angle grip. For one, it is not a dead system and I don't need to keep a second one in the dry cabinet just in case this one kicks the bucket and there are no more copies out in the wild or spare parts for the repairs.  ;)
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Hywel

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2015, 01:02:47 pm »

Stick a Profoto Air receiver on your Hensel and now you're integrated :).

Will that emulate the channels and the ability to change power settings remotely? Coz if it is just triggering the flash, any old Chinese eBay POC will do that... Unfortunately most of my Hensel kit is a few years old, before they added Profoto compatibility so it probably doesn't help me. Shame, it would have been a significant plus for the Phase system, but I don't think it'll work with my older units.

  Cheers, Hywel
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 01:05:38 pm by Hywel »
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ciccio

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2015, 01:21:00 pm »

+ 3


this is the real world...


best.

nobody will put all this $$$$

phase one is a not a status brand like leica...
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ciccio

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2015, 01:24:50 pm »

and for the allready obsolete iq 3 .....
everybody waiting the full frame cmos !
wrong subject ????
nobody buy an old tech for that $$$
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ciccio

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2015, 01:32:40 pm »

not true
they wil rent it ! ;)
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AreBee

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2015, 02:00:01 pm »

bcooter,

Quote
...new DF or DX  (what is it called?)

XF.
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Weldon Brewster

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2015, 04:00:22 pm »

Dude, go use the camera instead hypothesizing what it is or isn't.  Maybe it works for you maybe it doesn't.  I've had my Contax for almost 10 years and I love it but it's just a tool with a lot of miles on it.  In relation to other professions, cameras are actually quite cheap compared to heavy equipment or vehicles.  I understand your argument but just because Ford comes out with a new F150 every year doesn't mean you have to go buy one.  Just a little perspective.


XF?   What does that stand for?   

I'm sincere about my comments. 

At what point do us, the buyers say enough is enough, because what I have is working, or for the price it should have been working?

OK new camera great, ok it is lego I'm sorry Scandinavian design great I guess, ok the current backs won't fully or completely work with it, not so great. 

OK, we all guess that Phase is just clearing out all of their CCD stock until they go completely cmos, less than not so great.

I finally read Kevin's piece and it's semi fair and balanced but it's still tuned for the camera maker, not the photographer.   

From Kevin's article my pick up was it's great because it doesn't suck like the previous camera.

Where's the hard questions that I listed above?  To be fair most other sites and periodicals run the same stuff, I guess because they need access to the camera makers for whatever reason.

But just once I'd love to see something like a real hard questioning of why so long, why such a high price and why not the features found on lowly $1200 prosumer cameras. 

In body or back stabilization that will shoot a razor sharp image at 1/8th of a second?   Why not a fully articulating screen since your building a new back anyway?

And why not a Leica S solution of being able to adapt other lenses to the body with complete and full focus functionality?

Or a DNG file so we don't have to keep upgrading systems, cameras and computers, or just drop a file into any system and software we chose and off we go?

Even if you never use or like video, the low priced Pentax kind of does video with one of the same sensors, so why not?

You can always use video for scouting locations, or your kids party.

Will the IQ4 have the features listed above or do we find creative ways for some extra coin to pay up again?





IMO

BC

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AreBee

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2015, 04:37:55 pm »

bcooter,

Quote
XF?   What does that stand for?

With X as a character I doubt XF is an acronym.

Quote
I'm sincere about my comments.

I know.

Quote
At what point do us, the buyers say enough is enough...

In principle when our sense of value is exceeded, the measure of which will evolve according to the life experience and personal circumstances of each individual.
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BJL

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The hidden meaning of the evolution from 645AF to XF
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2015, 05:13:50 pm »

XF?   What does that stand for?  
Want some historic semiotic analysis of this product name?

Once upon a time there was "645AF", where of course AF meant Auto-Focus and 65 was a film format size.

Then the "A" became a "D", for Digital.

Now the "645" is gone, because that film format is no longer supported and it is no long accurate given the various sensor sizes, and there is the possibility that in the impending all-CMOS future, sensors will never again be close to full 645 size.

The "D" is gone, because it now goes without saying that it is digital; Phase One has left film compatibility and comparisons behind.

The "D" is replaced by an "X" because of an EU mandate that all new product must have that letter in their name or else be taxed at a higher rate.  Or for neXt generation, or eXtreme.

So XF = "next generation autofocus system in a camera of ambiguous format size and extreme pricing".
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 05:17:15 pm by BJL »
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alatreille

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2015, 05:33:34 pm »

Wow BJL that is good...
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Theodoros

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2015, 05:35:38 pm »

It looks to me like Phase One is turning to "closed" system with the XF, while Hasselblad is back to "open" system with the H5X? ....That's strange!
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EricWHiss

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2015, 06:20:45 pm »

I think the best thing about the XF is the promise of doing some real neat DAC such as the camera shake blur reduction in post that Brian alluded to in another thread. Probably they have other intelligent things for it to do on their road map.  Phase's strength seems to be software so I'd expect a lot more of that.   That's why I joked this will be the self driving car of cameras.    I'm very curious to handle the camera.  Probably they have a XF2 in the wings already without a mirror and with an EVF finder just waiting for new FF CMOS sensors.  If they don't they should have.  

Weldon, how often did you have to pull the camera away from what you were shooting and look at it to change a setting?  From the surface it sure looks like you can't adjust any settings by feel and will need to stop and look at it, but maybe I'm wrong?  

I've been to a lot of workshops and group shoots these last two years where guys had the DF+ camera and said stuff like, "yeah, I've put almost 100k shots through the DF+…. and hated (the body) on every frame."  or "I only took this camera because I got it free with the back."      So for those guys, this new camera will really probably look like a great leap forward.  

Anyone know if there will be a film back option for the XF?  It's really surprising how many customers with the Hy6 are shooting film instead of digital or in addition to digital.  It also seems that fewer and fewer pros are using their MFDB's as their main camera anymore.   It also seems like the real target audience for these cameras is no longer working pro's (maybe it never was?) so it does make sense to create self driving camera.
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Weldon Brewster

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2015, 08:09:54 pm »

Eric, you can customize the hard buttons to be anything you want so you don't have to look up.  From both the camera and C1 you can change any of the buttons/dials.


Bcooter, uber respect for your work and I was not trying to be harsh.  You're right, where does it end?  That's a philosophical debate for all areas of modern society.  Ever at Lucky Baldwin's in Pasadena I buy ya a beer.

I think the best thing about the XF is the promise of doing some real neat DAC such as the camera shake blur reduction in post that Brian alluded to in another thread. Probably they have other intelligent things for it to do on their road map.  Phase's strength seems to be software so I'd expect a lot more of that.   That's why I joked this will be the self driving car of cameras.    I'm very curious to handle the camera.  Probably they have a XF2 in the wings already without a mirror and with an EVF finder just waiting for new FF CMOS sensors.  If they don't they should have.  

Weldon, how often did you have to pull the camera away from what you were shooting and look at it to change a setting?  From the surface it sure looks like you can't adjust any settings by feel and will need to stop and look at it, but maybe I'm wrong?  

I've been to a lot of workshops and group shoots these last two years where guys had the DF+ camera and said stuff like, "yeah, I've put almost 100k shots through the DF+…. and hated (the body) on every frame."  or "I only took this camera because I got it free with the back."      So for those guys, this new camera will really probably look like a great leap forward.  

Anyone know if there will be a film back option for the XF?  It's really surprising how many customers with the Hy6 are shooting film instead of digital or in addition to digital.  It also seems that fewer and fewer pros are using their MFDB's as their main camera anymore.   It also seems like the real target audience for these cameras is no longer working pro's (maybe it never was?) so it does make sense to create self driving camera.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: My thoughts on the new PhaseOne XF (what are yours?)
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2015, 09:18:00 pm »

Hi,

From Brian's article:

"Update: Seismographic mode can be used with all lenses, however it will be most effective with leaf shutter lenses, given the vibration reduction inherent in not using the focal plane shutter.

Also, we should be very excited about the possibilities of the accelerometer, at the time of my initial writing I was not aware of this, however a US Patent #US6747690 B2 entitled Digital camera with integrated accelerometers filed by PhaseOne a number of years ago suggests in its abstract that “Data relating to static and dynamic accelerations are stored with recorded image data for further processing, such as for correcting image data for roll, pitch and vibrations … Data may also be used on-the-fly for smear suppression caused by vibrations.” There are other  PhaseOne patents that deal with the accelerometer, but this one would suggest that what I alluded to above could very much be on the menu in the not too distant future, and would certainly be a modern feature!"


This is interesting stuff. Ideally, the camera should be stable during exposure, but there are cases where vibration is hard to avoid, like shooting in windy conditions. If camera motion is recorded during exposure, that data may be using to deconvolve the image.

Best regards
Erik
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