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Author Topic: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature  (Read 31545 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2015, 10:24:09 am »

Correct, I'm not lumping you into that category.
Just the Adobe apologists who know they are Adobe apologists by your definition?
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ButchM

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2015, 06:13:17 pm »

Here (attached) are some examples from already available DeHazing solutions. I used the landscape image from Kolor's Neutralhazer plugin as comparison, under the fair use / review assumption. The Topaz Labs Clarity plugin is not specifically designed to dehaze, but it can still do a pretty decent job if one uses specific settings to address the haze.
The Photoline Dehaze function that was added to version 19 also looks promising, but I need to get a bit more familiar with Photoline to create a representative sample of its capabilities.

When the Adobe Dehaze feature is available, it would be nice if an example from the same image can be added to this comparison.

Cheers,
Bart


The one distinct advantage Lr/ACR (I'm assuming the tool will be in ACR as well) will have with the Dehaze tool is it is applied as a parametric setting to the RAW file. If I am not mistaken, the other options you mention, a derivative tiff or psd file would need to be created to apply the adjustment.

I'm not apologizing for Adobe, but I am a very big fan of any solution I can apply to the RAW file and not have to churn out a mountain of derivative files over the course of a year. I quite often shoot sports in heavy rain, fog and humidity and a simple solution like this will be a nice option in the toolbox.

While I wouldn't run out and buy Lr just for the Dehaze adjustment ... a single slider solution is looking real good and just put a notch in the plus column for me with CC ... and if you go back, I wasn't always a fan of CC.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2015, 07:56:42 pm »

Just the Adobe apologists who know they are Adobe apologists by your definition?

No, just whom ever the shoe fits.

They may know it themselves (if not then it's hopeless anyway), I do not have to point them out.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2015, 08:09:27 pm »

The one distinct advantage Lr/ACR (I'm assuming the tool will be in ACR as well) will have with the Dehaze tool is it is applied as a parametric setting to the RAW file. If I am not mistaken, the other options you mention, a derivative tiff or psd file would need to be created to apply the adjustment.

That's correct. It's nice to have a one slider solution (and parametric as well), although I prefer to tweak things like this more carefully (with layers or smart objects) to avoid killing the 'atmosphere' of the image (pun intended), and still be able to adjust after more edits are done.

As the Neutralhazer example shows, saturation can go totally wrong. In the TL Clarity example I even added saturation (with the same plugin) because the TL IntelliColor technology tied to avoid saturation changes too much for my taste. It will be interesting to see how LR Dehaze will handle that.

Cheers,
Bart
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ButchM

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2015, 09:17:53 pm »

That's correct. It's nice to have a one slider solution (and parametric as well), although I prefer to tweak things like this more carefully (with layers or smart objects) to avoid killing the 'atmosphere' of the image (pun intended), and still be able to adjust after more edits are done.

That's all rather lofty and presumptuous ... wouldn't you actually have to try the new Dehaze tool to determine if "tweaking" a single slider instead of many would actually kill the atmosphere or is a less "careful" process?

Post processing need not be any more complicated than necessary. Otherwise, why worry about software at all? I have been removing haze in my digital workflow since Ps v2 ... I would hope software engineers could improve upon that task by now without sacrificing final image quality.

Take the Clarity slider for example ... remember all the adjustment layers and "tweaking" we had to use on Ps back in the day to achieve what we can do now in a rather simplified manner? Yes, if you abuse that one slider it can cause unwanted results, however, with judicious application it does a great job that used to be a mundane task.

I invest in software to reduce the quality time I must be in front of a monitor and streamline my workflow to make it easier to serve my clients ... the finished quality of the images I export shouldn't necessarily be a factor of the the quantity of sliders invoked to reach the end result. My time is far too valuable, which is why I expect my tools to ease that burden so as to invest more time in other areas that will reap higher rewards.

Multiple sliders or one, it still doesn't remove the user's careful attention to exactly how far to adjust the tool.
Though, I'll wait until I actually use the tool to determines it's value in my workflow.
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digitaldog

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2015, 09:42:00 pm »

No, just whom ever the shoe fits.
Again, by your definition.
Hopeless. And pointless.
Quote
It's nice to have a one slider solution (and parametric as well), although I prefer to tweak things like this more carefully (with layers or smart objects) to avoid killing the 'atmosphere' of the image (pun intended), and still be able to adjust after more edits are done.
It's got nothing to do with a single and simple slider although that's great (KISS), it's about the data the edit is applied upon and that it is parametric, an advantage.
The new dehaze slider is pretty ground breaking for reasons some of us might explain to you when the product is released.
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kirkt

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2015, 08:42:10 pm »

DXO has this feature in their raw converter - called "ClearView."  One slider - example attached.

kirk
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2015, 05:00:06 am »

That's all rather lofty and presumptuous ... wouldn't you actually have to try the new Dehaze tool to determine if "tweaking" a single slider instead of many would actually kill the atmosphere or is a less "careful" process?

No Butch, it is not meant as presumptuous but more philosophical/creative, and based on experience with e.g. what happened with HDR tonemapping. Other than a number of pathological haze scenarios (e.g. aerial photography, abundant smog/aerosols obscuring important details), people seem to have difficulty in keeping measure when using these kind of tools.

Removing haze in a scene will alter the 'atmosphere' of a scene, maybe from justifiably hazy/romantic/mysterious and adding atmospheric depth perspective, to harsh and clinical (and everything in between). Few will know how to keep measure, and many won't even grasp that one can also add atmosphere instead of killing it.

Quote
Take the Clarity slider for example ... remember all the adjustment layers and "tweaking" we had to use on Ps back in the day to achieve what we can do now in a rather simplified manner? Yes, if you abuse that one slider it can cause unwanted results, however, with judicious application it does a great job that used to be a mundane task.

Correct, and I love improvements that speed up the workflow. But the point is that there are different implementations of a 'Clarity' control possible. I happen to prefer more control than a single slider can offer, however good it may turn out to be. I'm probably spoiled by Topaz Labs' implementation of Clarity which is so incredibly more powerful and tweakable than a  mainly mid tone contrast adjustment.

Quote
I invest in software to reduce the quality time I must be in front of a monitor and streamline my workflow to make it easier to serve my clients ... the finished quality of the images I export shouldn't necessarily be a factor of the the quantity of sliders invoked to reach the end result. My time is far too valuable, which is why I expect my tools to ease that burden so as to invest more time in other areas that will reap higher rewards.

As always, there are (at least) two sides to the coin (there's also an edge, which makes three). One is productivity, which can also be achieved with presets (which I use a lot when speed is of the esssence), and another is ultimate quality (which is a more subjective/creative approach (trying to get a feeling/sensation across), and (much) slower). I prefer tools that offer both, and I use both approaches with TL Clarity.

Quote
Multiple sliders or one, it still doesn't remove the user's careful attention to exactly how far to adjust the tool.
Though, I'll wait until I actually use the tool to determines it's value in my workflow.

Exactly, that's my concern as well (as explained with the earlier reference to HDR tonemapping). It's less about the tool's effectiveness in removing haze (I expect it to do what it should), it's about what it will do to the actual image due to people abusing it.  People tend to lose the subtle approach and gyrate toward cheesy Instagram effects, heck some made a business model out of that ADHD type of impatient need to score fast effect for the sake of it, taste doesn't seem to matter anymore. We see the same with the ACR Process 2012 defaults, they severely crush the life out of highlights, unless one moves the highlights slider towards -100. Most people have no idea what they are losing, and just love that their highlights seem to no longer blow out (which by itself is useful if you got your exposure wrong). That's why I prefer control (like that Highlight slider).

Cheers,
Bart
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Jim-St

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2015, 06:23:15 am »

If the new tool does anything like the job the Haze Cuuter in PKS has done for me these last ten years or so, and does it parametrically, it'll be a most welcome addition.

And one nice thing about subscribing is it's nice, on a morning like this, to come downstairs and find a nice new "free" (that's kinda how it feels) upgrade to my favourite photo apps awaiting to download...

LR CC (2015) downloading as I write...

Don't wanna sound smug or anything  ;D

Jim
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2015, 07:00:21 am »

If the new tool does anything like the job the Haze Cuuter in PKS has done for me these last ten years or so, and does it parametrically, it'll be a most welcome addition.

And one nice thing about subscribing is it's nice, on a morning like this, to come downstairs and find a nice new "free" (that's kinda how it feels) upgrade to my favourite photo apps awaiting to download...

LR CC (2015) downloading as I write...

Don't wanna sound smug or anything  ;D

Hi Jim,

Enjoy! If you or someone else could post an example, e.g. the NeutralHazer 'original' example above for comparison, then that would be helpful for others as well. Does it work on JPEG source images, or does it require Raws? What happens if you (as a test) push it too far (does it result in artifacts or just a (un)natural look)?

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 04:18:10 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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Chris Kern

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2015, 03:38:14 pm »

The new dehaze slider is pretty ground breaking for reasons some of us might explain to you when the product is released.

Well, I'm favorably impressed after an initial test, although I can't figure out how it works.  (A lot of blue-channel shifting?)

I just reprocessed a shot I made through an airliner window last month with an oldish compact camera (a Canon S90) during the initial climb-out from Denver International Airport.  As we were taking off, a rather impressive late-afternoon storm was brewing on the other side of the airport.  Since I was shooting perpendicularly to the direction the airplane was moving, I had to crank up the ISO setting to get an acceptably fast shutter speed.  The limited dynamic range of the camera, the less than pellucid airplane window, and the actual atmospheric haze from shooting horizontally toward the horizon at low altitude all conspired against me.  My best effort at processing the file with the initial LR 6 release was way too flat and my skills with Lightroom's tone controls were inadequate to the task of fixing that: I found I either had to relinquish shadow detail or settle for a blah result.  (I didn't try any other software.)

Today, I reprocessed the shot with a healthy dose of LR "dehaze."  Much better.  In addition to making the clouds appear as full and ominous as they looked at the time, the individual rain cells that were silhouetted against the sunset are now considerably more visible.  Before-and-after images attached.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 03:49:01 pm by Chris Kern »
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Cem

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2015, 04:40:52 am »

Here (attached) are some examples from already available DeHazing solutions. I used the landscape image from Kolor's Neutralhazer plugin as comparison, under the fair use / review assumption. The Topaz Labs Clarity plugin is not specifically designed to dehaze, but it can still do a pretty decent job if one uses specific settings to address the haze.
The Photoline Dehaze function that was added to version 19 also looks promising, but I need to get a bit more familiar with Photoline to create a representative sample of its capabilities.

When the Adobe Dehaze feature is available, it would be nice if an example from the same image can be added to this comparison.

Cheers,
Bart


Hi Bart,

Here are the dehazed images from Adobe LR. The first one is the original, the second one is dehaze @ 75% in LR and the third one is white balanced first (manually) before applying 75% dehaze in LR.

EDIT:
I have added a fourth image: DxO 10 dehazing (Clearview) at 85%.


« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 07:02:48 am by Cem »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2015, 04:59:40 am »

Hi Bart,

Here are the dehazed images from Adobe LR. The first one is the original, the second one is dehaze @ 75% in LR and the third one is white balanced first (manually) before applying 75% dehaze in LR.

Hi Cem,

Thanks for the comparison. Apparently Dehaze can also be used on JPEGs, which is nice to know.

As also suggested by Julianne Kost, first adjusting the White balance does have a positive influence on the DeHaze result. But it does seem sensitive to boosting the saturation (which is what a dehazing does) if not used with moderation, so an additional saturation adjustment may still be needed to keep things from getting out of hand.

Cheers,
Bart
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Ellis Vener

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2015, 09:44:10 am »

One thing about De-haze that I am surprised by: It hasn't been added to the Adjustment Brush menu, so for right now it only works globally.
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Arlen

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2015, 09:52:06 am »

One thing about De-haze that I am surprised by: It hasn't been added to the Adjustment Brush menu, so for right now it only works globally.

I'm a little surprised by that, too. There are many images that need de-hazing only in certain (distant) areas.
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kers

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2015, 09:58:59 am »

I'm a little surprised by that, too. There are many images that need de-hazing only in certain (distant) areas.
I agree, but it works on only specific parts...
As you can see in the examples : it finds the areas with low contrast and boosts only those.
... of course often things may go automatically wrong..
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Ellis Vener

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2015, 10:29:07 am »


As you can see in the examples : it finds the areas with low contrast and boosts only those.


My experience over the past few days with a wide variety of images: portraits, still life, architecture, and a wide variety of lighting conditions - flat to contrasty -   tells me it is being applied globally, not only to low contrast areas.
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bernie west

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2015, 07:14:07 am »

I'm finding it is resulting in too blue colour after application.  Which I find strange, given most(?) hazy images have a blue cast to begin with.

Oh, and I want it in a brush as well.  Often distant mountains are hazy, but foreground is clear.  But it is affecting the foreground too.  I don't need it in the foreground, though.  I hope they add it as an adjustment brush at some point soon.

But overall, I find it quite an impressive tool (after I readjust the white balance and saturation after application).  Does with one slider what it used to take multiple sliders to do.
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Chris Kern

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2015, 09:01:26 am »

I'm finding it is resulting in too blue colour after application.  Which I find strange, given most(?) hazy images have a blue cast to begin with. . . .

But overall, I find it quite an impressive tool (after I readjust the white balance and saturation after application).

I've also found it tends to accentuate any existing blue color cast.  Adobe recommends adjusting the white balance before you use the Dehaze adjustment.  I don't think the final image quality suffers if you reverse that sequence, but changing the color temperature after applying Dehaze seems to cause a lot of processing churn as Lightroom re-evaluates the image pixel-by-pixel, as discussed in this thread.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sneak Peak "Dehaze" LR CC Feature
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2015, 09:28:40 am »

I've also found it tends to accentuate any existing blue color cast.  Adobe recommends adjusting the white balance before you use the Dehaze adjustment.  I don't think the final image quality suffers if you reverse that sequence, but changing the color temperature after applying Dehaze seems to cause a lot of processing churn as Lightroom re-evaluates the image pixel-by-pixel, as discussed in this thread.

Indeed. In a parametric workflow it won't make any difference to the end result (the sequence in which the processing steps are done is hardwired), but it also means that the later steps (like adding the DeHaze effect) will need to be recalculated if the parameters of an earlier step (like for Whitebalance) are changed.

Cheers,
Bart
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