P40+ Moiré

[Kim Bentsen]

A japanese web site has some full size images from the P40+ in a recent review.

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/...208_334045.html

If you click the first image of the skyline you will get a 32MB jpeg file, with a lot of moiré and color artifacts in the metal grids and fences on the buildings.

Is this due to bad image processing settings by the reviewer or is this a realistic result of what can be expected?

[JoeKitchen]

A japanese web site has some full size images from the P40+ in a recent review.

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/...208_334045.html

If you click the first image of the skyline you will get a 32MB jpeg file, with a lot of moiré and color artifacts in the metal grids and fences on the buildings.

Is this due to bad image processing settings by the reviewer or is this a realistic result of what can be expected?

From what I have heard, since MF makers dont put AA filters over their sensors because they do not want any compromise in sharpness, MF backs are just much more susceptible to moire.  

With this being said, I have seen some great results from using caprock moire reduction filters (placed in front of the lens) in getting ride of some of the worse moire.  Also take away the christmas tree light effect.

[Kirk Gittings]

From what I have heard, since MF makers dont put AA filters over their sensors because they do not want any compromise in sharpness, MF backs are just much more susceptible to moire.  

With this being said, I have seen some great results from using caprock moire reduction filters (placed in front of the lens) in getting ride of some of the worse moire.  Also take away the christmas tree light effect.

Can anyone using these filters comment? Wouldn't using a filter such as the Caprock cancel out the MF advantage of not having an AA filter? In terms of architectural photography where moire problems would be common, wouldn't that just contribute further to closing the gap between high end DSLR and MF?

[rainer_v]

i cant see why there would be moiree in the sky. no reason for it.
i have the caprock filters and never use them, they soften the image too much or arent effective, botth depends on which filter you take. i didnt got very satisfying results in any case with hi resolution sensors. the worked fine with lower resolution cameras and backs.
moiree in architecture  is a rare issue with sensors over 30mp and if you are used to see it you usually see it on location or on display. stopping down to f22 is a solution than and to layer the shotsand use the non moiree zones from the f22 or the whole frame. if you find small zones in post you usually can postpro them easy either by desaturaing or blurring the colors or even the L channel. never i got a ruined image for moiree in the last years.

[CBarrett]

I have seen noise like that in the sky of an image from a P45+.  The sharpening settings and noise reduction in C1P have a huge impact on this.  It's not moire, as there are no patterns in the sky.  Likely, the user had their sharpening settings too high, maybe combined with excessive noise?

[ASSEMBLY]

I believe there is also a substantial difference between the x0 backs (e.g. P40+) and the x5 backs (e.g. P45+) resulting from the use of microlenses or the lack thereof. When I was on the market for a digital back I ended up going the x5 route due to the lack of microlenses which resulted in less moire and the ability to use shorter focal lengths.

[bcooter]

Moire is like a hard drive crash.  Anybody that says it hasn't happened to them is really saying it hasn't happened yet.

The very best way to limit pattern moire is to hand hold, because your not in the same exact position every frame, so on difficult subjects some will some won't, and hopefully your client will select the one that won't.

I don't shoot buildings, I shoot people and some things I would think would moire like crazy, (spandex) sometimes won't, other garments that I never would think would moire like a smooth blue shell top will pattern moire like crazy, so if it's blue I check it on a computer.

In order of the cameras I've use(d) Aptus 22 lots of moire, P40+ some moire, P21+ never, Leica M8 never, but of the list of these ccd sensor cameras the Aptus I used the most, the Leica the least so it's probably just a matter of the amount of images I've shot and the luck of the draw.

The one camera I've shot a billion frames with the 1ds III i've never seen moire, but like a hard drive crash I can only say I've haven't seen it "yet".

BC

[asf]

I've yet to see moire in any of the 1000's of frames I've shot on the 5d2. Hoping that streak lasts a while longer.

On aptus backs I have seen moire many times, usually easily fixable if caught while shooting, but I had to learn to look for it.

[rainer_v]

I've yet to see moire in any of the 1000's of frames I've shot on the 5d2. Hoping that streak lasts a while longer.

On aptus backs I have seen moire many times, usually easily fixable if caught while shooting, but I had to learn to look for it.

the 35mm cams with their aa filters have clearly the nose ahead. that i say it never ruined a shot does not mean that it never happens. with architecture its way simpler than with textils and stuff like that, if you shoot a structure which results in strong moiree i usually see it on the lcd and can change at least my aperture. if you can see it in time without beeing tethered depends on the lcd quality too, of course. which isnt bad and nicely bright on the newer e75 backs, although not 35mm level.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

This makes sense. Microlenses increase the fill factor and reduce aliasing effects. Microlenses also reduce resolution. One way to see it is that increasing the fill factor increases the probability that a single point is affecting more than one pixel. The result is a smoother image.

Erik

I believe there is also a substantial difference between the x0 backs (e.g. P40+) and the x5 backs (e.g. P45+) resulting from the use of microlenses or the lack thereof. When I was on the market for a digital back I ended up going the x5 route due to the lack of microlenses which resulted in less moire and the ability to use shorter focal lengths.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Moiré occiurs when the pitch of the structure in the subject is similar to the pitch of the sensor and the lens outresolves the sensor, so it is very much dependent on the distance from the subject and also on focusing and aperture.

Best regards
Erik

Moire is like a hard drive crash.  Anybody that says it hasn't happened to them is really saying it hasn't happened yet.

The very best way to limit pattern moire is to hand hold, because your not in the same exact position every frame, so on difficult subjects some will some won't, and hopefully your client will select the one that won't.

I don't shoot buildings, I shoot people and some things I would think would moire like crazy, (spandex) sometimes won't, other garments that I never would think would moire like a smooth blue shell top will pattern moire like crazy, so if it's blue I check it on a computer.

In order of the cameras I've use(d) Aptus 22 lots of moire, P40+ some moire, P21+ never, Leica M8 never, but of the list of these ccd sensor cameras the Aptus I used the most, the Leica the least so it's probably just a matter of the amount of images I've shot and the luck of the draw.

The one camera I've shot a billion frames with the 1ds III i've never seen moire, but like a hard drive crash I can only say I've haven't seen it "yet".

BC

[JoeKitchen]

Can anyone using these filters comment? Wouldn't using a filter such as the Caprock cancel out the MF advantage of not having an AA filter? In terms of architectural photography where moire problems would be common, wouldn't that just contribute further to closing the gap between high end DSLR and MF?

Very good point made.  

I have never used these filters, so I am speaking from just what I have read, heard and examples I have seen.  Caprock makes these filters with different intensities and the amount of decrease in sharpness is not noticeable unless you go to the stronger filters.  Also, these filters can be applied and taken off depending on the situation, while the aa filter is there to stay.

[BernardLanguillier]

A japanese web site has some full size images from the P40+ in a recent review.

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/...208_334045.html

If you click the first image of the skyline you will get a 32MB jpeg file, with a lot of moiré and color artifacts in the metal grids and fences on the buildings.

Is this due to bad image processing settings by the reviewer or is this a realistic result of what can be expected?

It isn't that bad, is it? You will just need to overlay one image with C1 moire reduction on top of the normal conversion and spend 5 mins creating a mask. Of course I wouldn't want to do it for production work, but for fine art images this is probably not a deal breaker.

I am more surprised by the amount of noise in the sky, which indicates that a significant amount of sharpening was applied to these images to reach this level of apparent pixel sharpness.

Cheers,
Bernard