EOS 1D Mark IV Announced

[Paul Sumi]

"Canon has revealed the details of its next 1-series digital SLR, the EOS-1D Mark IV. The new model is an evolution of the EOS-1D Mark III and features a 16.06 million image pixel, 1.3x crop sensor, top ISO of 102,400, 1080p video with external stereo mic jack, a revamped 45-point AF system and a wider-gamut, 920,000-dot rear LCD. All of this is inside a body that's essentially identical in appearance and control layout to the camera it replaces."

Full article on Rob Galbraith:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_pag...d=7-10044-10310

Paul

[pcunite]

Interesting times. New cameras coming out at an aggressive pace. I am eager to see the 1Ds Mark IV. It is interesting to note that button placements have not been developed or changed for video modes on this new camera. This is good I feel and shows that Canon is most likely still testing this and their real RED killer will be a body ergonomically designed for the purpose. It always took me as a bit of a hack having video in a DSLR body but what do I know about it really. With medium format digital prices falling fast in 22mp backs Canon must know their 1Ds is in the crosshairs of starving MFD companies.

[Josh-H]

Its already on Canon Australia's website Canon

[JBM]

Vincent Laforet got his hands on a prototype 1D Mark IV and posted his "Nocturne" video on his blog tonight. See
http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2009/10/19/...-camera-action/

"The ISO stayed locked in the 6400 ASA range - with a very few shots hovering 1 stop above and one or two set to 3200 ASA because we had TOO MUCH depth of field…(on the bridge.)  At one point I found myself shooting at 12,800 ASA by mistake - and I didn’t even notice any noise on the rear LCD in the skies… 6400 ASA is the new 1600 ASA - maybe even the new 800 ASA.  Stop to ponder that for a second  - and what it can mean to the way you approach your craft."

[dwdallam]

I have the feeling that the 1DS MKIV will not be eclipsed almost immediately, this time, by a 5DIII. This time, all the latest technology gets to go into the new flagship, including the new lower noise pixel technology.

The reason I ask is because before I upgrade, I'd like to see at least 27MPs with the above improvements. If I can get that from Canon, then this will be the last upgrade I make for a long time. Plenty of MPs for cropping and plenty of IQ for a long time, at least six months!!  Just joking about the six months. Seriously though, if I could get the above, I think that camera would be good with me and with my DSKIII as a back up for a long, long, long time.

The new 1DS MKIV that would allow me to NOT spend 8, 000US again for years upon years would be something like this:

1. 27+ MPs
2. Lower noise at higher ISO than the DSMKIII (I'd be happy with a true 12800)
3. Auto-focus improvement
4. Auto-focus low light improvement

Things I could live w/o but that would REALLY make my day:
1. New Ergonomic design that "feels" better in the hand.
2. All of the buttons that are now on the right top moved over to the left top.
3. 15+ RAW buffer
4. 2 CF slots for C-FAST cards--WTH is Canon thinking with SD slots?
5. Emotion sensor that tells me when models want to get together after the shoot.
6. Canon wireless credit card with 3K a year complimentary limit on new Canon products for the first year.
7. Paid time share in France.

And even with all that I'd be hard pressed to part with 8K again. Really hard pressed.

What would be cause for you to upgrade?

[Josh-H]

1. New Ergonomic design that "feels" better in the hand.

Cant agree with this (were you being serious?)- the current 1D ergonomics are gorgeous. I love everything about the 1D series, from the way they sit in the hand, to the way buttons fall naturally under my finger locations. I hope they never change.

1. 27+ MPs

The rumour is for 36 MP for the new 1DS MK IV 1DS MK IV Rumours

+1 for the time share in France  

[BernardLanguillier]

Good news. It is fascinating to witness how technology manages every time to outdo the predictions of some of our forum physics experts.

Cheers,
Bernard

[dwdallam]

Cant agree with this (were you being serious?)- the current 1D ergonomics are gorgeous.

Have you held the Nikon? The Nikon feels "thicker" in the hand grip for me, and I like that more full feeling. I would be FLATTENED if it has 36MP. I'd be extremely impressed if it had 32, and very, very impressed at 29, given that the noise is lower than the current DS3.

36? Given that all over things are improved and not riding second for the sake of pixels, such as max shots and FPS + noise, that would get my money.

My guess is somewhere between 29-32.

[Christopher]

Have you held the Nikon? The Nikon feels "thicker" in the hand grip for me, and I like that more full feeling. I would be FLATTENED if it has 36MP. I'd be extremely impressed if it had 32, and very, very impressed at 29, given that the noise is lower than the current DS3.

36? Given that all over things are improved and not riding second for the sake of pixels, such as max shots and FPS + noise, that would get my money.

My guess is somewhere between 29-32.

Well it depends on the person. I for one love the feeling of the 1 series and neither Nikon nor Sony feel even close. Others have different hands and needs. Even though possible it won't happen. We will NOT see 37Mp. When the 1DsMk3 came out the possible maximum of current sensor designs was around 27Mp and the camera had 21. My guess is PMA 2009 28Mp and so on. However there is ONE big IF. IF canon waits the full three years till Photokina then we could actually see something around 32-34Mp. The 1Ds doesn't need FPS ... 3 would be enough for that type of camera.

What we have to think on is that there could be a 3D like camera. Something before the 1DsMk3 around PMA.

[PierreVandevenne]

Good news. It is fascinating to witness how technology manages every time to outdo the predictions of some of our forum physics experts.

Well, not in terms of pixels and resolution, which was I believe the subject of the last discussion. As far as low light sensitivity is concerned, this is mostly a QE efficiency issue (raw, and effective) and there is still a lot of room for improvement. DR is a mix of many factors with QE and read noise being major factors. Relatively cheap amateur astronomy CCD cameras still beat the DSLRs by a wide margin, at the cost of ease of use of course. Also, while there are incremental improvements on all the component of the chain (micro lenses geometry, transparency, read noise, etc...) there is also a huge amount of in-camera processing that has essentially moved a lot of the post processing work to the pre-processing stage. The same in-camera processing that give (or gave until now) Nikon cameras the advantage in low light makes them less than optimal for astrophotography, where maximum actual SNR is sought through optimal post-processing. Regardless, this if of course great news for photographers.

One interesting bit of data I couldn't find is the well capacity in e- of these sensors. If it is in the 16000 e- range, no one is ever going to get more that 14 bits of DR out of them.

[ejmartin]

One interesting bit of data I couldn't find is the well capacity in e- of these sensors. If it is in the 16000 e- range, no one is ever going to get more that 14 bits of DR out of them.

What are "these sensors"?  Please mention model number(s).  If you're referring to the 1D4, we won't know until a copy is available for testing.  However, saturation density of photosites in Canon cameras hasn't changed dramatically from model to model; the 40D, which has the same size pixels as the 1D4, saturates at 43000 electrons.  More data available at http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dig...index.html#data

But yes, Canon DSLR's have never had more than 12 bits per pixel of DR.  The extra two bits are marketing fluff.

[BJL]

It is fascinating to witness how technology manages every time to outdo the predictions of some of our forum physics experts.

How does this contradict what the "forum physics experts" have said? I suppose you are referring to the signal from those new, smaller photosites (5.7 micron spacing) being put through ISO gain amplification that "goes up to 11" (The maximum ISO speed of 102,400 is 11 stops above the minimum of 50.) The physics of amplification itself is easy, especially when the last three stops are "HI" settings and so are probably bit-shifting in the digital domain ... the harder part is controlling the noise levels in the result!

Us physicists would be surprised only if those "ISO 102K" images look good printed at 200 to 300PPI and closely scrutinized, or viewed at 100% pixels on screen. I expect instead that they will do fine for images of dimly lit sports action and such when displayed at modest size on web-sites and in newspapers, which is probably the target.

Of course, real-world comparisons to what a lower resolution sensor does at equally high exposure index and equally small image display size will be interesting. I propose 1DMkIV images (with its "1.3x crop format") vs 1.3x crops of images from the new D3S: 16MP vs 9.5MP.

[PierreVandevenne]

What are "these sensors"?  Please mention model number(s).  If you're referring to the 1D4, we won't know until a copy is available for testing.  However, saturation density of photosites in Canon cameras hasn't changed dramatically from model to model; the 40D, which has the same size pixels as the 1D4, saturates at 43000 electrons.  More data available at http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dig...index.html#data
But yes, Canon DSLR's have never had more than 12 bits per pixel of DR.  The extra two bits are marketing fluff.

Thanks for the pointer, Emil. I forgot to check Clark's most excellent site and my guesstimate was off. The potential to improve DR is really there, then, we'll have to wait and see what they did to the read noise.

[Pierre le Suisse]

Specs look pretty good to me but the price seems outrageous.
Pete

[BJL]

Specs look pretty good to me but the price seems outrageous.

A few days ago, Nikon was taking heat in forums for adding $200 to the D3 price for the D3S upgrade offering "just inadequate 720p video and a bit less noise". I wonder how the far bigger Mark IV price jump will be weighed against its quite extensive complete HD video options and "cramming more pixels into a slightly smaller sensor, instead of going FF". I have a gut feeling that Canon knows very well what it is doing, as it usually does, but await test results.

[ChrisJR]

Specs look pretty good to me but the price seems outrageous.
Pete

The price is ridiculous in the UK. I bought a 1d3 just after it came out and paid £3000 cash for it but the new model is available pre-order for £4499 or more. As much as I love my 1d3 and want/need to buy a new model, I can't help but feel the D3s, which is £300 cheaper, is the better option as it has practically the same ISO capability, same shutter speed but importantly for me full-frame. Just wish I could get on with the ergonomics of the Nikons.

[erick.boileau]

What would be cause for you to upgrade?

25 or 50 real ISO  to 1600
no AA filter
21 or 24 MP are enough for me
better Dynamic Range
better Colors
clean shaddows
a 1Ds without Grip,  the size of the 5D
the feeling to buy a Camera for 10 years ... but it will certainly never come from Canon
5000 €  maximum

[BernardLanguillier]

I wonder how the far bigger Mark IV price jump will be weighed against its quite extensive complete HD video options and "cramming more pixels into a slightly smaller sensor, instead of going FF".

As far as the pixel size goes, it would be stupid to criticize Canon based on the specs of the camera, but it will make sense if the quality of the output does not meet the expectations of the target user population.

I believe that a x1.3 sensor makes a lot of sensor for sports, especially knowing that the Canon shooters who have been using the 1d3 have already adapted their shooting and lens selection to this format.

The only remaining question is whether it was a good choice to target a 16mp resolution as opposed to 12 for instance.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Josh-H]

I ordered one today to compliment my 1DSMK3 with the specific task of shooting kids portraits in low light without flash. Also.. seeing as this video thing is going to happen wether or not I get on board I might as well shoot some video and sell that with the prints!  

Edit - I see little need for a dedicated MLU button on the 1D series (note - that does not include the 'S' models); since its primarily aimed at sports and wildlife shooters who are almost always handholding or using a monopod. My 1DSMK3 however... now that SHOULD have a dedicated MLU button and I hope Canon include one on the 1DSMKIV.

[achrisproduction]

Have you held the Nikon? The Nikon feels "thicker" in the hand grip for me, and I like that more full feeling. I would be FLATTENED if it has 36MP. I'd be extremely impressed if it had 32, and very, very impressed at 29, given that the noise is lower than the current DS3.

36? Given that all over things are improved and not riding second for the sake of pixels, such as max shots and FPS + noise, that would get my money.

My guess is somewhere between 29-32.

It really depends on the size of your hands.  For me the 5D II feels better than the D700 and the 1Ds III feels better than D3 or D3x series.