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reissme

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misleading comparison in Dpreview Nikon D3x review
« on: February 20, 2009, 04:01:41 am »

Dpreview "in depth review" for Mikon D3x is misleading the viewers about Nikon D3x sharpness compare to Canon 1Ds Mark III in "25. Compared to (JPEG)". The Canon 1Ds Mark III looks less sharp at most of the points Dpreview choose to show us.
 When looking closely at the 100% enelarged pictures, one can see clearly that Dpreview made a mistake in choosing the exect focusing points, mesleading the viewers to belive that the Canon 1Ds Mark III is much less sharp than the Nikon D3x.
When looking in other places of the pictures in photoshop, side by side, one can see that the Nikon was focused on the labels of the bottles, while the Canon 1Ds Mark III was focused on the front Leica camera, (a little front focus for the Canon).
 Is it a professional comparison attitude, using different focus points and show the results side by side?

Regards

Menachem Reiss,  www.reiss.co.il
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Professional

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misleading comparison in Dpreview Nikon D3x review
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2009, 07:57:06 am »

To be honest, i am so happy with my 1Ds MarkIII, i don't need to upgrade or buy 5D MarkII and i don't need to convert to Nikon just because their Newest camera is slightly sharper.
I bought H3D instead, and i can be sure that this camera will kick xxx of Canon and Nikon DSLRs, i did a test with this beast against 1DsIII and it was the winner no doubt, so i am happy to use my 1DsIII and H3D and i don't think that Nikon D3x will add more to my photography gear or skill.

Good luck for all people who keep changing and converting from one brand to another because of one camera is sharper and another better ISO and the third one has video and and.....etc.
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inissila

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misleading comparison in Dpreview Nikon D3x review
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2009, 08:14:46 am »

Quote from: reissme
When looking in other places of the pictures in photoshop, side by side, one can see that the Nikon was focused on the labels of the bottles, while the Canon 1Ds Mark III was focused on the front Leica camera, (a little front focus for the Canon).
 Is it a professional comparison attitude, using different focus points and show the results side by side?

This seems to be a problem with dpreview reviews; many of the differences seen can be attributed to differences in focus. This is quite peculiar as most modern DSLRs can be focused accurately using Live view. With a little effort and this feature, the reviewers could eliminate focus errors from their tests.
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Ray

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misleading comparison in Dpreview Nikon D3x review
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2009, 08:36:22 am »

Quote from: reissme
Dpreview "in depth review" for Mikon D3x is misleading the viewers about Nikon D3x sharpness compare to Canon 1Ds Mark III in "25. Compared to (JPEG)". The Canon 1Ds Mark III looks less sharp at most of the points Dpreview choose to show us.
 When looking closely at the 100% enelarged pictures, one can see clearly that Dpreview made a mistake in choosing the exect focusing points, mesleading the viewers to belive that the Canon 1Ds Mark III is much less sharp than the Nikon D3x.
When looking in other places of the pictures in photoshop, side by side, one can see that the Nikon was focused on the labels of the bottles, while the Canon 1Ds Mark III was focused on the front Leica camera, (a little front focus for the Canon).
 Is it a professional comparison attitude, using different focus points and show the results side by side?

Regards

Menachem Reiss,  www.reiss.co.il

You're absolutely right. The focussing is different in comparison #25. That's very slack of Dpreview. I'd never be so sloppy if I were conducting such tests   .

Resolution tests require the utmost accuracy of focussing. (But seriously, we all make mistakes sometimes.)
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bjanes

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misleading comparison in Dpreview Nikon D3x review
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2009, 09:57:06 am »

Quote from: Ray
You're absolutely right. The focussing is different in comparison #25. That's very slack of Dpreview. I'd never be so sloppy if I were conducting such tests   .

The focusing inconsistency is not the only fault in DPReview's testing scheme. Using JPEG at defaults leads to many problems since the default tone curve and sharpening parameters may be quite different for different cameras and this will affect the results. Besides, most critical users do not use JPEG with its limited color gamut (restricted to aRGB on Nikon cameras), 8 bit depth, and relatively unsophisticated sharpening. Bruce Fraser would roll over in his grave.

Use of raw files is more appropriate, but most cameras do not have pure raw output with no processing. The choice of ACR for a raw converter is reasonable, but the ACR algorithms may work better for some cameras than others, and ACR does apply noise reduction in the demosaicing process even if NR is set to zero. They use the same sharpening parameters for their ACR tests, but this gives an advantage to the camera with a weaker blur filter. The D3x apparently has a relatively weak blur filter and I don't know how it compares to that of the 1DsMIII. A strong blur filter requires more sharpening with a small radius as Bruce explained in his sharpening book.  It is increasingly common for some lens aberrations (e.g. chromatic aberration) to be corrected in software. For example the Nikon D3 series has an algorithm for automatically correcting lateral chromatic aberration; this correction is applied by the in camera JPEG engine and by Nikon Capture NX using metatdata written to the raw file. In ACR the chromatic aberration correction must be applied manually.

Their resolution tests are relatively useless as they measure resolution at extinction, at which point resolution vanishes. It makes more sense to measure resolution where there is resolution. Without even looking at their test results, you can predict that the resolution will be about 75% of Nyquist. MTF at 50% contrast would be more useful, but this value is markedly affected by sharpening.

In their dynamic range tests, they talk about highlight and shadow "headroom", but this is dependent on the tone curve in use. Raw files are linear and there is no inflection point to indicate mid range values. For the limiting shadow noise used in determining DR they use an unspecified standard deviation, but a standard deviation does not adequately quantify noise, since perceived noise depends on the noise spectrum. As explained on the DXO site, high resolution sensors may have a higher standard deviation for noise, but the perceived noise may be less because it has a higher frequency. Also, noise reduction can have a dramatic effect on DR--you could have a high DR but no resolution.

In summary, the DPReview tests reports are useful for giving a detailed list of camera features and specifications, but they are relatively useless for determining how a camera will perform in the field with a given work flow used by sophisticated photographers.

Quote from: Ray
Resolution tests require the utmost accuracy of focussing. (But seriously, we all make mistakes sometimes.)

Yes, but when you set up yourself as an expert authority, mistakes are more glaring and less forgivable.
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misleading comparison in Dpreview Nikon D3x review
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2009, 10:00:05 am »

If i can find anyone of my friends who has D3x i will ask him to do a test with my 1DsIII in our studio lab in the club and see the results, in addition i know one new friend who has 5DmarkII, so we can test 3 cameras and see the results.
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Dennishh

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misleading comparison in Dpreview Nikon D3x review
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2009, 01:50:57 pm »

I couldn't figure out why the paper clips looked so much sharper for the 1DsMk3 than the D3X, thanks for looking closer! This kind of mistake is inexcusable for a site that is supposed to be so respected.  
It will be great to see an actual one on one test done by a professional that knows how to focus a camera.
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Slough

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misleading comparison in Dpreview Nikon D3x review
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2009, 06:22:34 pm »

Quote from: reissme
Is it a professional comparison attitude, using different focus points and show the results side by side?

Of course not. But I suspect that dpreview is run by photogeeks who excel in technoballs and not people with experience of earning money from a camera.
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Ray

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misleading comparison in Dpreview Nikon D3x review
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2009, 01:41:25 am »

Quote from: bjanes
The focusing inconsistency is not the only fault in DPReview's testing scheme. Using JPEG at defaults leads to many problems since the default tone curve and sharpening parameters may be quite different for different cameras and this will affect the results. Besides, most critical users do not use JPEG with its limited color gamut (restricted to aRGB on Nikon cameras), 8 bit depth, and relatively unsophisticated sharpening. Bruce Fraser would roll over in his grave.

Bill,
The focussing inconsistency is the only fault which is inexcusable. The other 'faults' in methodology, to which you allude, may cause Bruce Fraser to turn in his grave, but they are deliberate faults and therefore cannot really be described as faults; more like policy.

As long as Dpreview inform the reader that certain comparisons are the default jpegs of the cameras under comparison, then that's fine by me. There are apparently lots of folks who use their DSLR in jpeg mode. The first glowing review of the Nikon D3 on this website, by James Russell, featured only jpeg shots straight out of the camera.

Increasingly, it seems, Dpreview are using RAW files for comparison. Their DR results from RAW images might be suspect if ACR employs a certain amount of noise reduction which cannot be switched off, but again this procedure is not necessarily faulty but rather a matter of policy. Lots of people use ACR and accept that in-built noise reduction as a desirable feature.

However, if Dpreview start comparing resolution of RAW images with different focussing, then that's clearly a fault or mistake. Inadequate information is one thing. Incorrect and misleading information is something else.
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