Hahnemuehle Photo Rag 308gsm - trimmimg for mounting to dibond

[NeilPrintArt]

Hello !
I have just printed a series of images for a client on Hahnemuehle Photo Rag 308gsm

The prints went off to the framer, who is mounting them to dibond sheets. Prints are getting trimmed to the image edge - i.e no paper margin or bleed

He (the framer) is reporting major issues in trying to trim the prints. Particularly in the darker/heavily inked areas, he is reporting that the surface is flaking off and revealing the paper white underneath. Framer is claiming this is less of an issue with other papers.

I was wondering if anyone else has ever had issues with trimming (without flaking) printed surface of Photo Rag 308?

Strictly speaking it is not my problem, but I recommended the paper to the client and now framer is saying that the paper is the cause of the problems he is experiencing which makes me look bad.

Any advice or comments or experience of trimming Photo Rag 308 (or other cotton rags) on the inked areas gratefully received

Thanks
Neil


   

[arobinson7547]

I would add bleed (so that the image is 1/8 to 1/4 larger than the Dibond), mount and place face down and trim with a new blade.

If you trim an image you have printed with a new blade (test print) and notice that all is well (you get a clean cut thru the image area), then you are good.

[deanwork]

Photorag 308 has been a known flaker since it first came out over 20 years ago. William Turner was worse but 308 pretty bad.

You don’t normally notice it unless a lot of ink , especially black, is laid down.

Later they came out with Photorag Ultra-Smooth which has a harder surface coating, but also contains what I consider an unacceptable amount of dye brighteners.

I used to have issues with Photorag 308 scuffing in portfolios so I had to spray the prints if handled. Then I switched to Hah. Museum Etching which has a very nice more durable coating, but it does have a lot more texture and is thicker and more expensive.

All of this flaking of 308 lead me to switch to Canson when it came out and it has been the sharpest and most durable matte rag I’ve ever used. They are now offered as an Epson clones as well (legacy series) . I’m referring to Canson Rag Photographique and Edition Etching. These papers have a deep hard coating. Many times I’ve had a drop of ink or splatter in the border of a print as was able to use a matte knife to scrape it off with Canson. Many times. With 308 it’s far more difficult if not impossible as it shows as scuffing, and with UltraSmooth forget it, the coating is so thin and brittle it tears apart.

Anyway like he said you need to be very careful while trimming 308 for mounting. A lot of times these guys are not using very sharp blades to trim the dibond which can cause frayed edges even on the best media. If the paper surface is soft with a lot of ink on the surface it can easily flake away. The only thing you can do is spray the print first with a solvent uv spray to try to minimize that . That’s far from a perfect solution, which is why I don’t use 308.

John

Hello !
I have just printed a series of images for a client on Hahnemuehle Photo Rag 308gsm

The prints went off to the framer, who is mounting them to dibond sheets. Prints are getting trimmed to the image edge - i.e no paper margin or bleed

He (the framer) is reporting major issues in trying to trim the prints. Particularly in the darker/heavily inked areas, he is reporting that the surface is flaking off and revealing the paper white underneath. Framer is claiming this is less of an issue with other papers.

I was wondering if anyone else has ever had issues with trimming (without flaking) printed surface of Photo Rag 308?

Strictly speaking it is not my problem, but I recommended the paper to the client and now framer is saying that the paper is the cause of the problems he is experiencing which makes me look bad.

Any advice or comments or experience of trimming Photo Rag 308 (or other cotton rags) on the inked areas gratefully received

Thanks
Neil


 

[mcrepsej]

I also have good experiences with Canson Edition Etching Rag and Mediajet Museum Natural Velvet (probably the same paper from Felix Schoeller) mounted on Dibond.
The knife which trims the edge should of course be a new leaf and turns along the way if there are many to be trimmed.

[dgberg]

We do many of these mounts(But not with that paper)
Mount print to dibond and with at least an 1/8" bleed around all four edges. Flip over and with a new razor trim the waste away using the tip of the razor at a slight angle.
One of the most important parts of the trimming process is to have a very flat very hard surface to do your trimming on. Hold the dibond down firmly adjacent to your cut.
New razor for every mount. It has to be sharp and sliding along the edge of dibond destroys that pretty quick.

[JRSmit]

Use Sharp knives, if using a break away knive, my preference, do break after a meter of cutting. I use HPR308 a lot.

[Richard.Wills]

All of the above - Canson Rag Photographique is the least likely to chip, that I've found so far.

I have a couple of 3x4' cutting matts on an 8x4 table. Tissue paper on the cutting matt, then mounted print with bleed face down, fresh corner of razor for each edge. The tissue helps with handling.
Dibond cut on the SteelTrak has a slight roll to the edge, and isn't an option I offer with rag papers. If the client insists on this combination, I'll buy in cut sheets and charge a premium.

Hate doing photo rag full bleed on DiBond / aluminium, and strongly discourage it as a combination (24 pieces 40x60" mostly black on 2mm aluminium, many years ago, has left me mentally scarred, though the work did look great hung in the gallery)

[Ernst Dinkla]

In summary of the replies; the difference between the Sihl coating process for Hahnemühle and the Felix Schoeller coating process for the other companies?

Nevertheless I laminate German Etching,  Photorag, Innova IFA11, to 2mm DiBond and 2mm polystyrene sheets. First cut the already adhesive made sheets 15-20mm larger than needed by clamping a metal L profile at the edge of a metal table then cutting the first alu layer of the DiBond along that profile and then fold it at that line three times to break the fold. Same for polystyrene. Both pieces do not show any warp if you do it with an extra hands clamped profile/brett on the piece to fold.  Print keeps 3-5mm paper around + Qimage Ultimate corner marks + 0.5mm QU extra white border but falls within the DiBond sheet size, leaving an adhesive border of about 3-5mm around where a thin protection paper adheres over the total area. QU cutting marks still a bit visible through that paper. 5-7mm edges cut off on a heavy board cutter just within the corner marks or just within the image edges when the image runs off the edges. Both in laminating and in the cutting process + handling after that the protection paper does its job. It is easier to get close to the edge of the image that way or I can add some extra image with my canvas wrap actions. The thin strip that is cut off takes all the energy of the cut so no warp in the product. The edges made that way still are easy to damage but I am able to glue a thicker expanded PVC sheet of a smaller size at the rear to get a stiffer product. Polyurethane one component glue, vacuum table. It could be done with the usual alu U profiles as well. These days if I laminate it is mainly to 2mm polystyrene for floating frames, with or without glass, framer does the rest.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

https://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

[mearussi]

Do you spray the surface before handling? I find the surface pf 308 so delicate that I don't like handling it without first spraying it.

[deanwork]

I’ve never had work mounted to polystyrene sheets. Is it safe from chemical contamination over the long term?

Which is the best adhesive to use for that ?

John

In summary of the replies; the difference between the Sihl coating process for Hahnemühle and the Felix Schoeller coating process for the other companies?

Nevertheless I laminate German Etching,  Photorag, Innova IFA11, to 2mm DiBond and 2mm polystyrene sheets. First cut the already adhesive made sheets 15-20mm larger than needed by clamping a metal L profile at the edge of a metal table then cutting the first alu layer of the DiBond along that profile and then fold it at that line three times to break the fold. Same for polystyrene. Both pieces do not show any warp if you do it with an extra hands clamped profile/brett on the piece to fold.  Print keeps 3-5mm paper around + Qimage Ultimate corner marks + 0.5mm QU extra white border but falls within the DiBond sheet size, leaving an adhesive border of about 3-5mm around where a thin protection paper adheres over the total area. QU cutting marks still a bit visible through that paper. 5-7mm edges cut off on a heavy board cutter just within the corner marks or just within the image edges when the image runs off the edges. Both in laminating and in the cutting process + handling after that the protection paper does its job. It is easier to get close to the edge of the image that way or I can add some extra image with my canvas wrap actions. The thin strip that is cut off takes all the energy of the cut so no warp in the product. The edges made that way still are easy to damage but I am able to glue a thicker expanded PVC sheet of a smaller size at the rear to get a stiffer product. Polyurethane one component glue, vacuum table. It could be done with the usual alu U profiles as well. These days if I laminate it is mainly to 2mm polystyrene for floating frames, with or without glass, framer does the rest.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

https://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

[Ernst Dinkla]

I’ve never had work mounted to polystyrene sheets. Is it safe from chemical contamination over the long term?

Which is the best adhesive to use for that ?

John

Polystyrene edges will yellow over time, the older ABS type more prone to that, the polystyrene HIPS quality in this case at least does not yellow that fast and will not emit chloride, like (expanded) PVC will. It is less inert and archival proof as PET, PC, PMMA will be but for this function alright. It needs a support at the rear for larger prints, simply the structure is not rigid enough, though 3mm Forex will not be better and that is PVC based. I use it as the framer had difficulty to glue DiBond properly within frames while the HIPS bonded well and was lighter.

The thicker double sided Zenith Cold Mounting film meant for rough surfaces. However the HIPS is not rough but the German Etching rear is. For smoother papers the normal Zenith version. Both have no solvents and are PH neutral, good aging properties.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

https://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

[deanwork]

Zenith brand , interesting, I don’t know if we have that in the states.

Why don’t you just mount on plexi-glass? Polystyrene is lighter and cuts easier and cheaper ?

I have large things mounted to dibond but is so damn heavy.

John

Polystyrene edges will yellow over time, the older ABS type more prone to that, the polystyrene HIPS quality in this case at least does not yellow that fast and will not emit chloride, like (expanded) PVC will. It is less inert and archival proof as PET, PC, PMMA will be but for this function alright. It needs a support at the rear for larger prints, simply the structure is not rigid enough, though 3mm Forex will not be better and that is PVC based. I use it as the framer had difficulty to glue DiBond properly within frames while the HIPS bonded well and was lighter.

The thicker double sided Zenith Cold Mounting film meant for rough surfaces. However the HIPS is not rough but the German Etching rear is. For smoother papers the normal Zenith version. Both have no solvents and are PH neutral, good aging properties.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

https://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

[mearussi]

Zenith brand , interesting, I don’t know if we have that in the states.

Why don’t you just mount on plexi-glass? Polystyrene is lighter and cuts easier and cheaper ?

I have large things mounted to dibond but is so damn heavy.

John

When I mount I also prefer clear acrylic as I don't like the edges to be noticeable.

[Ernst Dinkla]

Zenith brand , interesting, I don’t know if we have that in the states.

Why don’t you just mount on plexi-glass? Polystyrene is lighter and cuts easier and cheaper ?

I have large things mounted to dibond but is so damn heavy.

John

You can not cut the acrylic + mounted print in a similar way, too brittle for that. The whole process I use does not produce dust. I get the sheets at 305x102 cm, laminate the Zenith to the sheets and stock them to be cut to the sizes needed.

For real "archival" framing there is no substitute than framing in a traditional way behind glass with a matte and acid free museum board etc. The method that is reversible so the print can be separated from the boards used.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

https://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

[deanwork]

Right, makes sense. Cutting plexi and the print together would be a very problematic situation even with the best cutting equipment.

The way Sugimoto mounts his silver prints is to drymount to museum board and then mount that to
Dibond. They  look spectacular floated in a shadowbox frame. But as Mark at Aardenburg  has discovered, heat is not good for the inkjet receptor coatings. Not good at all.

Personally for  prints 30x40 inches and smaller I usually recommend traditional matting. They look great.  For prints 40x60 ish we have them mounted directly to dibond and framed with a spacer to keep separated from the glass.

People around here mount to Sentra a lot but I don’t deal with that stuff. It’s full of chemicals I don’t like.

You can not cut the acrylic + mounted print in a similar way, too brittle for that. The whole process I use does not produce dust. I get the sheets at 305x102 cm, laminate the Zenith to the sheets and stock them to be cut to the sizes needed.

For real "archival" framing there is no substitute than framing in a traditional way behind glass with a matte and acid free museum board etc. The method that is reversible so the print can be separated from the boards used.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

https://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken