Shocking resale experience on P1 gear. Very disappointed!

[Paul2660]

As a user of  both the AFDIII P45+ and IQ160, then the DF, (which was offered as a upgrade when I purchased my P45+ kit), the AF was the same, no improvement, still 3 hits basically to really get a good AF hit. 

The other issues the DF inherited from the AFDIII, were the lockup issues, bad battery life and communication unless Li-On AA's were used (which I did not do to cost and availability in the field locations I shot at the time).  Lockups were standard and common, most times required a total power off, and sometimes required a battery pack pull.  The firmware could only be upgraded with the Grip installed as it had the USB port. 

Many folks still don't realize most of the modern Mamiya AF lenses require firmware, from the 105-210 generation on up.  The firmware needs to be current with the camera and can be a mess at times and that also caused lockups, (at least on my Mamiya 28mm non LS).

The DF+ came out, with a improved AF and the ability to microadjust the AF (only one lens could be done and none were stored as I recall), but the AF was much better, and more reliable.  The battery pack was changed to the LI-ON back, and for most the lockups went away.  Not for all as there have been reports even with the XF doing this type of lockup. 

The real take away from all of this, you really need to work with a dealer on these issues.  It's next to impossible to talk to Phase One directly, (in NY) and if you open a tech case online they are not going to authorize a replacement of hardware.  This equipment can be finicky and firmware updates can create bigger issues.  Once you have one, it's not all that easy to get back.  The latest Phase Firmware currently for the XF and IQ123 backs, has created a bricked back in several situations.  Yet Phase has not reported this or pulled the firmware, but you can find several reported cases of this on different forums.  So again, main take away is find a dealer and work with them, or you might need to consider a different purchase.  Phase One gear IMO still requires more hands on support than other types of camera gear. 

Paul C

[sbernthal]

Feel free to post comparisons and results!

Afaik they _all_ have the absolut exact same optical design and differ only in software and aperture/shutter design - and perhaps coatings. But the resulting differences should be close to 0.

I won't post results, since I am no longer in possession the older lenses, and I'm not sure if I even kept the test results since they were done just for my own benefit.
I've spent many thousands of dollars on these lenses, and with every generation I've made the comparison to determine if I need the upgrade or not.

However - what you say - "as far as you know" - doesn't match reality.
All the 120s are not "absolutely", nor even remotely identical.
The only two generations that were identical optically, as I've said, where AF and LS.
The optical design changed several times along the way, and the QC changed very significantly.
Comparing the first and last as equals would be quite preposterous.

You can insist on your "gut" truth, even though you clearly didn't really research to in any sort of depth. ("...differences should be...").
I know you are not supposed to say that here, but that kind of reminds me of someone who is very popular right now...

[Theodoros]

As a user of  both the AFDIII P45+ and IQ160, then the DF, (which was offered as a upgrade when I purchased my P45+ kit), the AF was the same, no improvement, still 3 hits basically to really get a good AF hit. 

The other issues the DF inherited from the AFDIII, were the lockup issues, bad battery life and communication unless Li-On AA's were used (which I did not do to cost and availability in the field locations I shot at the time).  Lockups were standard and common, most times required a total power off, and sometimes required a battery pack pull.  The firmware could only be upgraded with the Grip installed as it had the USB port. 

Many folks still don't realize most of the modern Mamiya AF lenses require firmware, from the 105-210 generation on up.  The firmware needs to be current with the camera and can be a mess at times and that also caused lockups, (at least on my Mamiya 28mm non LS).

The DF+ came out, with a improved AF and the ability to microadjust the AF (only one lens could be done and none were stored as I recall), but the AF was much better, and more reliable.  The battery pack was changed to the LI-ON back, and for most the lockups went away.  Not for all as there have been reports even with the XF doing this type of lockup. 

The real take away from all of this, you really need to work with a dealer on these issues.  It's next to impossible to talk to Phase One directly, (in NY) and if you open a tech case online they are not going to authorize a replacement of hardware.  This equipment can be finicky and firmware updates can create bigger issues.  Once you have one, it's not all that easy to get back.  The latest Phase Firmware currently for the XF and IQ123 backs, has created a bricked back in several situations.  Yet Phase has not reported this or pulled the firmware, but you can find several reported cases of this on different forums.  So again, main take away is find a dealer and work with them, or you might need to consider a different purchase.  Phase One gear IMO still requires more hands on support than other types of camera gear. 

Paul C

Paul's comment sounds as a confirmation for me, that I did right when I choose to invest on the (dead) Contax 645 platform, rather on investing on the M645 platform back in 2005.... Strangely, my main criteria to make the choice at the days was the simplicity of the camera as well as the modularity of it (interchangeable finders - WLF)... the lens quality (at the days) was second. I never trusted equipment that is promoting complex interface as to include more (useless) features than I need.... The only function of the C645 I would wish to be improved is its AF speed and accuracy (i.e. a more sensitive sensor in it than the old one that exists)... Other than that, the C645 is as modern as any other camera and surely the most reliable camera out there, with the best of ergonomics too...

[Christoph B.]

However - what you say - "as far as you know" - doesn't match reality.

Your perception of reality: as far as you know.

I did a lot of research, rented gear and talked to other users - so without any proof its your word against mine. A standoff.
Please refrain from using the argument from authority by inserting yourself as an authority, that doesn't work and never did and never will. That's why I asked your for images, comparison shots - I'm willing to change my position but I need more than the word of someone I don't know and who has 0 proof.

Right now I can only tell you what I've experienced and learned and you can tell me what you've experienced and learned. Without photos there's nothing more we can do.

[Theodoros]

Your perception of reality: as far as you know.

I did a lot of research, rented gear and talked to other users - so without any proof its your word against mine. A standoff.
Please refrain from using the argument from authority by inserting yourself as an authority, that doesn't work and never did and never will. That's why I asked your for images, comparison shots - I'm willing to change my position but I need more than the word of someone I don't know and who has 0 proof.

Right now I can only tell you what I've experienced and learned and you can tell me what you've experienced and learned. Without photos there's nothing more we can do.

The fact that P+ back owners of m645 mount (like the O/P) find it hard to find a customer for their back, although other mount P+ backs are far easier to sell, is a proof though... I agree with sbernthal that there is little between lenses... but there little between CCD backs too...

[sbernthal]

The fact that P+ back owners of m645 mount (like the O/P) find it hard to find a customer for their back, although other mount P+ backs are far easier to sell, is a proof though... I agree with sbernthal that there is little between lenses... but there little between CCD backs too...

Totally true. Many people say "back X is exactly identical to back Y", when in fact there is always some difference.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I don't like that dealer model. There may be great dealers, but all dealers may not be great, and all dealers cost money. If you cannot connect to vendor service directly it is a shame. If you have a choice to go over a dealer it is just fine, but you should always have the option to work with vendors directly.

That said, I have the impression that dealers like Steve Hendrix of Capture Integration are really good and honest guys whom you always can trust.

To put this into perspective:

I bought my P45+ used from a great guy in Poland. I have been told that my sample is a very good one, but it came without finder masks. So I contacted Scandinavian Photo, something like BH PhotoVideo who are dealers for P1. So I got a call back on the phone. What is a viewfinder mask? Shouldn't you order that from Hasselblad? But they finally deferred me to D3Image who have been extremely helpful.

But, now-days all links at Phase One Partners go to Scandinavian Photo, the guys who were very kind but didn't have the slightest idea. Some months ago, Phase One was also listed by Goecker.se, but it seems that Goecker dropped P1 in favour of Hasselblad only.

Best regards
Erik

As a user of  both the AFDIII P45+ and IQ160, then the DF, (which was offered as a upgrade when I purchased my P45+ kit), the AF was the same, no improvement, still 3 hits basically to really get a good AF hit. 

The other issues the DF inherited from the AFDIII, were the lockup issues, bad battery life and communication unless Li-On AA's were used (which I did not do to cost and availability in the field locations I shot at the time).  Lockups were standard and common, most times required a total power off, and sometimes required a battery pack pull.  The firmware could only be upgraded with the Grip installed as it had the USB port. 

Many folks still don't realize most of the modern Mamiya AF lenses require firmware, from the 105-210 generation on up.  The firmware needs to be current with the camera and can be a mess at times and that also caused lockups, (at least on my Mamiya 28mm non LS).

The DF+ came out, with a improved AF and the ability to microadjust the AF (only one lens could be done and none were stored as I recall), but the AF was much better, and more reliable.  The battery pack was changed to the LI-ON back, and for most the lockups went away.  Not for all as there have been reports even with the XF doing this type of lockup. 

The real take away from all of this, you really need to work with a dealer on these issues.  It's next to impossible to talk to Phase One directly, (in NY) and if you open a tech case online they are not going to authorize a replacement of hardware.  This equipment can be finicky and firmware updates can create bigger issues.  Once you have one, it's not all that easy to get back.  The latest Phase Firmware currently for the XF and IQ123 backs, has created a bricked back in several situations.  Yet Phase has not reported this or pulled the firmware, but you can find several reported cases of this on different forums.  So again, main take away is find a dealer and work with them, or you might need to consider a different purchase.  Phase One gear IMO still requires more hands on support than other types of camera gear. 

Paul C