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Author Topic: Pentax 645Z review  (Read 15778 times)

leeonmaui

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2014, 05:03:01 pm »

Aloha,

I tend to shot the 645 35mm FA on my 645D
At f11-f16 the files are so rich, even when
Slightly off there seems to be tons of detail and sharpness.
I believe these are the apertures that lens is optimized for.
I could be mistaken though.

Paying a little bit/or a lot of attention to what is important
In the composition goes a long way to getting desired result.

Diffraction is an issue real world with the 35mm I can easily see it.
For what I do, I tend to avoid stopping down past f16 but sometimes I will click a few shots really stopped down just to compare the results later.
I guess focus stacking is an option if you are not shooting  dynamic scenes.

Michael have you had the opportunity to  shoot in bulb, with exposures over thirty seconds?
The 645D does a black screen noise reduction for shots over thrifty seconds which is pretty neat.
I guess in the Z you can turn that option on or off.

Also which cpl filters do you prefer for the camera?
 
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bjanes

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #61 on: September 08, 2014, 06:32:42 pm »

Hi,

I don't think that tone in these postings were bad.

Regarding the ISO thing I feel that it is good that we have a high ISO capable sensor that still leaves reasonable DR when 6 stops underexposed, weather or not it is achieved with manipulation of raw data.

Regarding diffraction I am pretty sure that the stuff Bart, Bill, Hans and I discuss is for real, but it is also possible that stopping down to far is not the ethernal sin we may pretend. Tim Parkin has posted an article discussing this and indicating that f/22 is still a decent aperture, when used with adequate sharpening.

On the other hand, I am in doubt if a Pentax 645Z used at f/22 and 12800 ISO will yield superior results to an A7r ord D810 at f/16 and ISO 6400. So shooting small aperture and high ISO may negate the benefits of the larger format.

Best regards
Erik

Ps. Tim's article is here: http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2012/07/diffraction-limited/

He is quite critical of this article published here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/pages.php/tutorials/resolution.shtml

Erik,

I did take a look at Tim's article and found it provocative in a helpful way. He maintains that humans can resolve 117 cy/mm (lp/mm) rather than the usually quoted 73 cy/mm as the criterion for the diffraction limit. In the old days, lens testers used the USAF line bars in determining the resolution of lenses, but more modern thinking is that one must take the contrast into account as well as the resolution figure. When interpreting lens tests reported as MTF, contrast at lower resolutions is given more weight than high resolution at low MTF. This is taken into account by SQF (subjective quality analysis). Bob Atkins gives a simplified explanation of SQF. He notes that human perception peaks at about 6 cy/degree, which corresponds to about 1 cy/mm on a print viewed at 34 cm (about 13.5 inches). With these facts in mind, 117 cy/mm at 2-5% contrast may not contribute that much to perceived sharpness and we should place more emphasis on resolution at 50% contrast (MTF of 50%). Indeed, Norman Koren points out that it does not make sense to measure resolution where it is extinguished (at low MTF).

Our MTF 50 results at f/22 do indicate a severe loss of resolution.

Bill
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2014, 06:00:12 am »

Erik,

I did take a look at Tim's article and found it provocative in a helpful way. He maintains that humans can resolve 117 cy/mm (lp/mm) rather than the usually quoted 73 cy/mm as the criterion for the diffraction limit. In the old days, lens testers used the USAF line bars in determining the resolution of lenses, but more modern thinking is that one must take the contrast into account as well as the resolution figure. When interpreting lens tests reported as MTF, contrast at lower resolutions is given more weight than high resolution at low MTF.

Hi Bill,

While true, one needs to recognize that these MTFs are usually measured before (!) sharpening. As illustrated by your sharpened versions from shots of my test target, the higher spatial frequencies get boosted to levels that approach those of lower spatial frequencies. The bi-tonal USAF target and similar, are un-fit (due to aliasing and ringing artifacts from sharp edges that may fall in alignment with the pixel grid, or not, i.e. phase errors) for discrete sampling systems like our sensors (but then they were designed for film, and are perfectly suitable for that).

Quote
This is taken into account by SQF (subjective quality analysis). Bob Atkins gives a simplified explanation of SQF. He notes that human perception peaks at about 6 cy/degree, which corresponds to about 1 cy/mm on a print viewed at 34 cm (about 13.5 inches). With these facts in mind, 117 cy/mm at 2-5% contrast may not contribute that much to perceived sharpness and we should place more emphasis on resolution at 50% contrast (MTF of 50%). Indeed, Norman Koren points out that it does not make sense to measure resolution where it is extinguished (at low MTF).

Before sharpening. This is where additional tools like Topaz Labs Detail make a difference. They additionally address these lower spatial frequencies and can apply more or less contrast (even guided by luminance of color contrast) by changing the amplitude of that detail level, assuming it is there is sufficient quality to begin with. Deconvolution sharpening of the highest spatial frequencies also boosts lower frequency quality to a certain degree.

Quote
Our MTF 50 results at f/22 do indicate a severe loss of resolution.

And the spatial frequencies for those MTF50 scores are already pretty low, especially when enlarged for output.

Perceived resolution is a complex psycho-physical process, and therefore Michael's impressions based on shots of subject matter that's familiar to him, are interesting (although hard to quantify). And he is of course right that there is more to a successful image than resolution alone. It will take some objective testing to see where the perceived resolution is coming from. Based on objective facts, it's going to be easier to make balanced decisions between DOF (how much is enough, e.g. f/16 or f/22, in some situations) and resolution (how much do we limit magnification potential by our choices).

My DOF planning tool attempts to address several of these issues, and also reports if diffraction affects the desired COC limits. Section 4 of my Slanted Edge tool web page, allows to independently (does not require the prior 3 steps but will use them if available) play with different scenarios, such as that diffraction adjusted COC limit. It reports the estimated MTF50 spatial frequency for adjustable sensel pitches and allows to copy and (e.g. with Excel) plot estimated MTF curves for diffraction combined with different levels of COC blur.

Cheers,
Bart
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laughingbear

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2014, 08:05:28 am »


My DOF planning tool attempts to address several of these issues, and also reports if diffraction affects the desired COC limits.

Wow! Just had a look at this Bart, perhaps it might be an economically beneficial idea to make an APP of this tool?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2014, 09:33:47 am »

Wow! Just had a look at this Bart, perhaps it might be an economically beneficial idea to make an APP of this tool?

Hi Georg,

I know, it has been suggested here as well. If only I had more resources ...

It's not perfect (yet) as it is, but most of it works as intended, and obviously the Pentax 645Z (and siblings) is available as a pre-coded choice (as are most modern exchangeable lens cameras and backs). Of course an App would require (and be able to) use a different GUI, but might also require a slight compromise in one or two calculations. As it is, it doesn't require a connection after loading the webpage, so one could run it on it's own browser tab in the field without connection. But it's mostly a planning tool.

Cheers,
Bart
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Manoli

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2014, 11:23:45 am »

As it is, it doesn't require a connection after loading the webpage, so one could run it on it's own browser tab in the field without connection.

I have it added as an icon to the home screen on both iPhone and iPad - no loss of functionality, immediately accessible. Thanks (again), Bart.
M
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 12:06:43 pm by Manoli »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #66 on: September 09, 2014, 02:34:57 pm »

I have it added as an icon to the home screen on both iPhone and iPad - no loss of functionality, immediately accessible.

Hi M,

That's why I designed it as a single webpage. An App could use Tabs and be less verbose with info icons and a how to use page or pages. Of course other optimizations could also be made, for smaller displays.

Quote
Thanks (again), Bart.

You're welcome. Enjoy it.

Back to the 645Z ... ;)

Cheers,
Bart
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leeonmaui

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2014, 02:42:16 am »

Aloha,

I was wondering if you had a chance to shoot in bulb more,
over thirty seconds, and if you liked the in camera
Black screen noise reduction that is a feature of the longer exposures?

Also

What brand of circular polarizer  do you like?

Thanks, lee
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michael

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2014, 07:49:05 am »

Aloha,

I was wondering if you had a chance to shoot in bulb more,
over thirty seconds, and if you liked the in camera
Black screen noise reduction that is a feature of the longer exposures?

Also

What brand of circular polarizer  do you like?

Thanks, lee

The longest I've shot with the 645z so far is about 5 seconds. I've seen some by others at 30 minutes. Very clean.

I use B+W polarizers mostly. Also Heliopan and Hoya. Many others are good, but you get what you pay for. Good ones have brass rings and won't bind. Cheep ones are aluminium and can stick.

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LKaven

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #69 on: September 10, 2014, 11:52:53 pm »

The longest I've shot with the 645z so far is about 5 seconds. I've seen some by others at 30 minutes. Very clean.

Michael, the IS250 does a mandatory and automatic dark frame subtraction on every frame.  Does the 645Z do this as well?  Or is this optional?

The thing that concerns me is that at handheld shutter speeds and high gain settings, I'd expect to find abundant thermal noise.  I'm curious to know if the Z can do dark frame subtraction on those settings, or whether one will have to do it manually. 

michael

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2014, 02:37:15 am »

The 645z has two settings for dark frame noise reduction...

1: For high ISO. This can be turned off if you like. When set to on it activates automatically depending on thermal conditions and whether it feels like it.

2: Long exposure dark frame noise reduction can not be turned off. It has an On and an Auto position. On will always do one (not sure when it cuts in) while on Auto it will do it when the length of time, temperature and who knows what else warrants it. I have mine set to ON and Auto, but I don't have enough long exposure experience yet to really understand its behaviour.

I am playing with multiple exposure star stacking, but without any guidance, and so I limit my shots to under 5 seconds to avoid trails, and under ISO 25,000, and have not noticed any DF delays.

Michael
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LKaven

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2014, 03:34:15 am »

The 645z has two settings for dark frame noise reduction...

1: For high ISO. This can be turned off if you like. When set to on it activates automatically depending on thermal conditions and whether it feels like it.

2: Long exposure dark frame noise reduction can not be turned off. It has an On and an Auto position. On will always do one (not sure when it cuts in) while on Auto it will do it when the length of time, temperature and who knows what else warrants it. I have mine set to ON and Auto, but I don't have enough long exposure experience yet to really understand its behaviour.

I am playing with multiple exposure star stacking, but without any guidance, and so I limit my shots to under 5 seconds to avoid trails, and under ISO 25,000, and have not noticed any DF delays.

Thanks for the informative reply! 

In the IQ-250, the camera maintains a library of recent dark frames.  It may re-use or re-generate them as it deems necessary.  When the camera is using a stored dark frame, you would not experience delays.

I would guess that at ISO 25600 and anywhere under 1/40th, you will see the heat signature in the bluish-magenta cast in cases where DFNR is disabled completely.  I'd also guess that the noise would be much worse after extensive use of live view.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2014, 04:50:05 am »

Thanks for the informative reply!  

In the IQ-250, the camera maintains a library of recent dark frames.  It may re-use or re-generate them as it deems necessary.  When the camera is using a stored dark frame, you would not experience delays.

Hi Luke,

While that is efficient, it may also result in unpredictable shooting intervals when the back decides that a new darkframe is required.

I was also wondering if the Pentax could switch it off, instead of deciding for itself. Maybe if Rawconverters would offer more support for dark-frame subtraction (like RawTherapee does), the camera manufacturers would reconsider their firmware options.

A benefit of CMOS is that it doesn't require as much power as CCDs, and thus can stay cooler in long exposure/sequence scenarios. If the supporting electronics are designed well enough they will have minimal effect on the heat transfer to the sensor.

There usually is a temperature field in the EXIF info that allows to check whether temperatures vary a lot, although it's not defined where that temperature is measured, and if every manufacturer populates that field. Anyway, it's often the exposure time that leads to 'dark current' build-up, i.e. temporal noise. Overall noise levels stay relatively constant with constant temperature.

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. The articulated LCD may provide better de-coupling of heat transfer from the LCD in case of prolonged use of Live-View.

P.P.S. According to Ming Thein, the 645Z rarely inserts a black frame exposure with exposure times below 4-5 minutes.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 01:39:37 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2014, 06:04:40 am »

I noted the dig on the CCD v CMOS argument, from a technical point as recent CCD's have not been made (least not for most cameras) one wonders how they might stack up given equal tech in the modern era.
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LKaven

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Re: Pentax 645Z review
« Reply #74 on: September 11, 2014, 01:23:07 pm »

Hi Luke,

While that is efficient, it may also result in unpredictable shooting intervals when the back decides that a new Blackframe is required.

I was also wondering if the Pentax could switch it off, instead of deciding for itself. Maybe if Rawconverters would offer more support for black-frame subtraction (like RawTherapee does), the camera manufacturers would reconsider their firmware options.

A benefit of CMOS is that it doesn't require as much power as CCDs, and thus can stay cooler in long exposure/sequence scenarios. If the supporting electronics are designed well enough they will have minimal effect on the heat transfer to the sensor.

There usually is a temperature field in the EXIF info that allows to check whether temperatures vary a lot, although it's not defined where that temperature is measured, and if every manufacturer populates that field. Anyway, it's often the exposure time that leads to 'dark current' build-up, i.e. temporal noise. Overall noise levels stay relatively constant with constant temperature.

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. The articulated LCD may provide better de-coupling of heat transfer from the LCD in case of prolonged use of Live-View.

P.P.S. According to Ming Thein, the 645Z rarely inserts a black frame exposure with exposure times below 4-5 minutes.

Ola Bart!

I agree, the shooting intervals will become unpredictable.

What I got from my experience with the D800 in very high gain situations (> ISO 6400) at handheld shutter speeds, is that the extensive use of active electronics in a dense package produces prodigious thermal noise, as one can see from inspecting a dark frame. 

I supposed that these characteristics would be similar in the MF Exmor.  I am curious to see in more controlled tests how much this bears out.

It is hard to tell how accurate Ming Thein is about when his camera does or does not use DF noise reduction.  If he is judging on the basis of delays, then he might not be taking the dark frame library into account.

As far as noise contribution from live view, I suspect that most of the noise comes from the heat generated by the continuous activation of the sensor and readout at many frames per second, and less from heat generated by the LCD itself.
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