Photographing at Art Fairs

[Isaac]

The really creepy thing is…

Unfortunately there are other nightmares.

[Wayne Fox]

Some context:

-- Stealing Intellectual Property at the Art Fairs

I didn’t read the second article, but thought it somewhat amusing that an article intended for artists in Art Festivals about those copying their work is pretty ironic, since painters at this level frequently copy a photograph they didn’t take.

[zippski]

 Yes.  For the record, that is *exactly* what he was hoping for.   He was suffering financially because of the copycat conterfeitting, he felt the police we useless, so he exactly wanted something like that to happen so he could go the media with it all. You see, one small part of the problem is the police could never find the guy, so if that guy laid criminal charges for assault, he in turn would of been right there for the police to arrest and for the summons servers to serve him the papers for a civil lawsuit too.

   Hell of  a system we live in, isn't it?

Man.  There is so much fail in your friend's reasoning process in that scenario, I am not sure where to begin.

Let's just say that your friend would have likely have gained a criminal record, paid a lawyer several $1000s and the photos still would have been copied.

Then, he could plan on spending $20-$50K on the civil lawsuit (cash on the way through, no contingency fees here, I'm afraid)

Maybe, just maybe, he might win a likely uncollectable judgment...assuming he doesn't lose and is forced pay the other side's legal costs.  Oh, and perhaps the defendants win on their counterclaim/setoff for the assault.

Leigh
zippski       

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

There is a new twist in the debate. A guy posted this (emphasis mine):

You can also post a small sign stating that there is a fee to photograph your work with your permission. This then makes it a criminal matter and the police can arrest them. It is called theft of services. Copyright is civil and that is why you won't get help from security or police. Theft of services is a criminal complaint and the police have no choice but to issue a citation with your complaint.

Hmmm...

[PeterAit]

With all due respect, I have a modest proposal - seeing that this thread has reached an astonishing level of silliness, with all sorts of people carrying on about legal matters they are completely ignorant of, perhaps the thread should die a (long overdue) natural death. Really. Go take some photographs!

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... Go take some photographs!

Or feel free to stop reading this thread if you have no interest. I do.

Such is the nature of internet threads. Some people might post something silly, which then prompts other people to respond in a reasoned manner, advancing everyone's knowledge.

[louoates]

I can't imagine the police taking action as a result of such a complaint
I agree to the demise of this topic before the issue of capital punishment is raised.

[Isaac]

There is a new twist in the debate.

Presumably you asked if they had been involved in a successful prosecution on that basis?

[Isaac]

…since painters at this level frequently copy a photograph they didn’t take.

It's strange but we all seem more concerned with our rights than the rights of others.

[Gulag]

In Issue #17 of Elephant magazine, there is a piece on how some leading fine art photographers today are using others' images to make their own art and they use so-called "found" images in the exact context that Marcel Duchamp used ready-made objects, which reminds me of  "The bad artists imitate, the great artists steal" - the most famous quote of Picasso.

[joneil]

Man.  There is so much fail in your friend's reasoning process in that scenario, I am not sure where to begin.
Leigh
zippski       

-snip-

   For record, I am not saying I agree with the logic, nor even being an apologist for it, only pointing out some of what is going on out there.   
 
  Look, we live in a time when the economy is in terrible shape for many people.  I know business people, not just photographers, we are having troubles just paying the basic expenses and bills.  I am somewhat surprised how little attention that gets here.  For example, it is estimated that 20% of all Americans are on food stamps.   Does the poor economy not affect anyone where or is everybody posting on this forum in the 1%.   I am serious, not saying that to be a troll or a jerk, I am quite honest. 

   so my point is this - the logic is flawed, perhaps even surreal, but the desperation is honest and real out there.   Does it make sense?  Do I like it?  No.  But on the flip side, another friend/business associate of mine recently committed suicide.  Maybe I am wandering too far off topic, apologies if I do, but I have friends who life long photographers, professional artists, etc, who are just having a hard time making ends meet.   That is all I am trying to point out.

  And in these times, when factories and companies overseas are copying and counterfeiting every darned thing they can lay their hand on and ripping off artists and photographers here in North America right, left and centre, why is anyone surprised at the reaction they get shooting photographs at an art fair?

   Let me go back to that Key West art fair.   People are vetted to get in, and i have personally talked to some people who have travelled not just hundreds, but thousands of miles to get there.  One guy as litterally a two thousand mile journey, round trip, there and back, to setup at that art fair.

  Say any of you guys did something like that, took your prints down to that or some similar art fair, only to find out a few weeks later somebody copied your photographs and is now mass producing them out of a factory overseas and not paying you a penny, how would you feel?  How would you really feel if you lost money on that art fair, you did it mostly for the exposure and the prestige and the advertising, and you found out all your potential sales went down the toilet because of that guy who copied your work?

  then a month later, there is no money to pay the bills?  How does a person respond then?  Logic or desperation?   Do you see where i am comming fomr now?

thanks for the soapbox and rant mode time

 

[Colorado David]

My brother-in-law is a fine craftsman.  For many years he made antique reproduction furniture that was sold in several large catalogs and show-room furniture dealers.  While the inspiration for the pieces were antique designs available to anyone, he had made some design and feature enhancements and his furniture sold well for years.  Then the orders suddenly stopped.  Overnight all of his orders just screeched to a halt.  The funny thing was the furniture continued to be offered in the catalogs.  His work had been reverse engineered and was manufactured in China.  He sent letters and the replies said; Fine. Fight us in court if you think you can afford the legal fees.

[Gulag]

Visiting my local art show last weekend, I talked to a few exhibiting photogs there. Almost all of them told me the market for matted prints - small and inexpensive prints -  has been in decline since 2008 while the market for more expensive large framed prints hasn't been affected at all. I remember one famously said there are only two classes in any society - the rich and the poor. If you market your "art" to the poor, well, in an economic setup in which the stock market performance has divorced itself from the economic reality, you get the message. 

[louoates]

Small prints don't command a good price at most art fairs because the apparent value just isn't there. That's because folks are used to 25 cent prints from Costco, etc. They also know that decent framing is extremely expensive, even for small prints. Add to that most art customers are also phone camera shooters with zero expenses, and if they like the shot they get a 25 cent copy printed anywhere. The cheap Costco type prints are also used by very many art show exhibitors, and that leads to them being able to further reduce the selling price in a sometimes misguided attempt to boost their sales.

Getting back to this topic's topic...I believe that the folks snapping art with their cell phone are just doing what the Kodak Brownie crowd did last century, snapping left and right simply to record an experience. The present generation can then just forward the image to friends with a few thumb jabs. I don't see much of any other motive. I think there's more damage done to the photographer by thieves who buy a small print at the art show, and steal the image that way via a good scan later.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Small prints don't command a good price at most art fairs because the apparent value just isn't there....

How small is "small"? Would you consider, say, a 13x19 print, a small one? At, say, $125 (matted and bagged, but no frame)?
 
At the last show, I had only 20x30 canvases. For the next one, I was thinking of adding 13x19 inkjets, and a few, selected, larger canvases, framed in hefty wooden (golden) frames and priced probably double (than the 20x30 ones, that is).

You seem to be suggesting that the inkjet strategy might be wrong, if for no other reason, than for buyers scanning it and making their own larger prints, i.e., cannibalizing my larger pieces?

[louoates]

You seem to be suggesting that the inkjet strategy might be wrong, if for no other reason, than for buyers scanning it and making their own larger prints, i.e., cannibalizing my larger pieces?

No, I'd never worry about the theft via a purchased print and scan. It's simply too small a risk to be concerned about. I do like selling inkjet prints at all sizes, paper and canvas.

I have had artists scan my prints that I made for them from my photographs of THEIR art for resale. They made copies at Costco for resale. Sure, it's a violation of my copyright, but other than not photographing and printing for them any longer, there's no way I'd bother with a complaint, civil or otherwise.

[Gulag]

There is nothing new under the sun. In essence, there are only the rich and the poor in any society. Of course, lots of the poor got led to believe they're in the middle.

Today's Wall Street Journal reports "The contemporary art is on fire."  

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304081804579560911179047616?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304081804579560911179047616.html

Here are some highlights:

The contemporary art market is on fire. Christie's in New York made auction history Tuesday when it sold $745 million worth of contemporary art in less time than it takes to watch a basketball game.
 
The auction house's total surpassed its $691.6 million landmark sale last November and reset records for artists like Alexander Calder and Barnett Newman, whose black-and-tan abstract, "Black Fire I," sold for $84.2 million.
 

 
Christie's total easily exceeded its own $500 million expectations, with collectors, fashion designers and dealers in chunky eyeglasses chasing nearly everything on offer—and whistling and shaking their heads in amazement on occasion.
 
...
 
Among the usual roster of international collectors, mainland Chinese collectors bidding over the telephone stood out, taking home a gallery's worth of works.
 
...
 
All night long, auction regulars like New York dealers Larry Gagosian and Dominique Levy found themselves competing with Asian telephone bidders for the sale's art trophies—with each taking spoils in turn.
 
...
 
"You have to be disciplined and not reckless in this market," Mr. Cejas added, "but if you like something, you stretch for it. And this is the one I wanted."
 
...
 
"The art market is hot across the board—Pop is selling, Ab-Ex is selling, New Wave is selling, it's all selling."