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Author Topic: Super Resolution and Denoise  (Read 6924 times)

Jonathan Cross

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Super Resolution and Denoise
« on: June 15, 2025, 09:29:58 am »

I have been in Scotland photographing wildlife.  Birds were often quite a long way off and I was using a 100-400 lens on a Fuji X-T5, so the lens was like a 150-600 full frame lens.  Even so significant cropping was often needed, even to print at 9"x6" at 300dpi.  I was also having to use 1/1000 sec (with IS off as I have always been told at that shutter speed). The meant the iSO was often high.

I find super resolution and denoise fine for my purposes, but then have to choose which to use as I cannot use both (LR Classic 14.3.1).  In the end when I need both, I am using super resolution and then manually using noise reduction.  I am not sure I can do as good a job as denoise.

How I would love Adobe to issue a firmware update to be able to use both.  Am I the only one in this position or has any one got a better work round.? I am reluctant to buy Gigapixel, probably too penny pinching!

Jonathan
   
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mcbroomf

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Re: Super Resolution and Denoise
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2025, 10:55:45 am »

This is a workaround though of course he's using SR on a tiff not a raw after Denoise.  I have not used it but I recall the 1st YT video he produced and refers to, which I tested it but never did any hard comparisons (eg Adobe Denoise and Gigapixel for enlarging which would be the obvious one for me as I own Gigapixel).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwsff6dkoRM

Let us know how it goes if you test it out.
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digitaldog

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Re: Super Resolution and Denoise
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2025, 11:15:36 am »

https://blog.thomasfitzgeraldphotography.com/blog/2025/5/denoise-and-superresolution-on-the-same-image-adobe-broke-my-old-trick-to-do-this-heres-a-new-method
Denoise and SuperResolution on the same image - Adobe Broke my old trick to do this - Here’s a New Method!
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Jonathan Cross

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Re: Super Resolution and Denoise
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2025, 01:18:46 pm »

Thanks Mike and Andrew.  I like the idea of avoiding using Photoshop and keeping it all in LR.  I have exported a super resolution file of 2700x1800 pixels that will print as 9"x6". I did as instructed in your link, Andrew, and the resulting file is about 20MB.  I keep all the original photos from the recent months on my internal 1TB iMac M1 drive and then move them in LR to an external HD so LR keeps track of their location.  I have already backed them up. 

I have quite a lot of images for which I want to do this, so at 20MB a time GBs will result needing HD or SSD space.  External storage is relatively cheap, but I do not want to add too much to my iMac which is our main computer, not just for image processing.  I would rather avoid generating another file for each image.  I do not normally generate a TIFF as I print directly from LR or use the Canon Print and Layout plug-in.

I know I am being fussy! You have given me a solution, so I will balance out the pros and cons and decide what to do until such time that Adobe changes its mind.

Thanks to both of you.

Jonathan


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PeterAit

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Re: Super Resolution and Denoise
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2025, 01:30:20 pm »

I have been in Scotland photographing wildlife.  Birds were often quite a long way off and I was using a 100-400 lens on a Fuji X-T5, so the lens was like a 150-600 full frame lens.  Even so significant cropping was often needed, even to print at 9"x6" at 300dpi.  I was also having to use 1/1000 sec (with IS off as I have always been told at that shutter speed). The meant the iSO was often high.

I find super resolution and denoise fine for my purposes, but then have to choose which to use as I cannot use both (LR Classic 14.3.1).  In the end when I need both, I am using super resolution and then manually using noise reduction.  I am not sure I can do as good a job as denoise.

How I would love Adobe to issue a firmware update to be able to use both.  Am I the only one in this position or has any one got a better work round.? I am reluctant to buy Gigapixel, probably too penny pinching!

Jonathan

Just a note based on my experience. I find LR's denoise to be excellent and I use it all the time, given that I usually have my ISO set to auto so comer home with a lot of high-ISO shots. But super-resolution is not very good compared with the Topaz product. Photo-AI includes Gigapixel and some excellent sharpening tools as well. Very much worth the $$ me thinks.
 
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Chris Kern

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Re: Super Resolution and Denoise
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2025, 02:34:14 pm »

Given that one of the best attributes of Lightroom's Develop module is the ability to apply edits to a raw file, the most desirable approach would be to be able to maintain that nondestructive workflow when using features based on machine-learning like denoise, fine details, and super resolution.  In other words, for those functions to perform their magic without demosaicing the raw image and emitting a linear DNG.

I don't know whether that is a feasible objective.  I suspect nobody external to Adobe does.  But I often find I want to do some additional tweaking to the derivative file either because the enhancement process has affected my prior edits or because I simply have changed my mind about one or more of the earlier parameters.  So it's either necessary to start over or to wind up with two independent sets of edits: one for the raw file and one for the linear DNG.

Having said that, I don't think it is inherently impossible for the current machine-learning denoise process to work on a demosaiced file.  If I demosaic a file with DxO Pure Raw, I can apply Lightroom denoise to DxO's linear DNG.  Since the DxO product provides its own noise reduction, I have doubts about how useful it is to subsequently invoke Lightroom's denoise.  However, the fact that it's possible at least suggests that denoise is not confined to operating on raw image data.

For now, when I need both denoise and increased resolution, I use Lightroom's "Edit in" dialog to launch Topaz Gigapixel.  For most images, my experience has been that Gigapixel produces enlargements that are roughly of the same quality as those produced with Lightroom's super resolution.  Viewed at 1:1, sometimes one approach or the other seems marginally better—but for most purposes the differences can be ignored.

digitaldog

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Re: Super Resolution and Denoise
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2025, 02:57:28 pm »

However, the fact that it's possible at least suggests that denoise is not confined to operating on raw image data.
Denoise is currently only confined to operating on raw image data.  ;)
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Chris Kern

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Re: Super Resolution and Denoise
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2025, 03:11:56 pm »

Denoise is currently only confined to operating on raw image data.  ;)

I offered a counterexample:

If I demosaic a file with DxO Pure Raw, I can apply Lightroom denoise to DxO's linear DNG.  Since the DxO product provides its own noise reduction, I have doubts about how useful it is to subsequently invoke Lightroom's denoise.  However, the fact that it's possible at least suggests that denoise is not confined to operating on raw image data.

The output produced by DxO Pure Raw when it is applied to a raw file is a scene-referred linear DNG.  It is possible to apply Lightroom's denoise to this file (the machine-learning version, not the manual noise reduction).  I've tested this with Fuji and Leica raw files.

Again, I have doubts about how useful it is to stack Lightroom's denoise on top of DxO's own noise reduction, but at least it's possible to run the process.

digitaldog

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Re: Super Resolution and Denoise
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2025, 03:38:01 pm »

I offered a counterexample:
I know, plus I provided a link. However, let's talk again about this in a few days.... ;)
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Chris Kern

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Re: Super Resolution and Denoise
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2025, 04:23:09 pm »

. . . let's talk again about this in a few days.... ;)

Hmm.  I guess we are just about due for a June update, aren't we?

Chris Kern

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Re: Super Resolution and Denoise
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2025, 11:59:52 am »

Given that one of the best attributes of Lightroom's Develop module is the ability to apply edits to a raw file, the most desirable approach would be to be able to maintain that nondestructive workflow when using features based on machine-learning like denoise, fine details, and super resolution.  In other words, for those functions to perform their magic without demosaicing the raw image and emitting a linear DNG.

However, let's talk again about this in a few days.... ;)

Hmm.  I guess we are just about due for a June update, aren't we?

Well, the June update of Lightroom is now available and it does indeed provide the functionality I was hoping for—although it is implemented in a way I wouldn't have anticipated.  It turns out the Enhance features (denoise, fine details, super resolution) still require that the file be demosaiced, but Adobe has cleverly preserved the raw workflow by storing the resulting pixels in the .lrcat-data file associated with the catalog rather than creating a new linear DNG.

As usual, Victoria Bampton offers an excellent summery of the new features.  With respect to the implementation of the machine-learning tools, she writes:

Quote
Although it no longer creates a separate DNG file, the amount of space the Enhance tools use remains approximately the same. Because it generates pixel data, it differs from a normal slider or checkbox. For example, when we tested them on a 24 MB raw file, applying Super Resolution created approximately 48 MB of extra data, while applying only Raw Details generated around 18 MB of extra data. Denoise had the lowest impact, creating only about 5 MB of extra data.

In Lightroom Classic, the new pixel data is stored in the .lrcat-data file alongside the catalog. In Lightroom Desktop Cloud mode, it’s saved to the cloud database. If you write to XMP in Lightroom Classic, or you use Lightroom Desktop in Local mode, it also creates an enormous .xmp sidecar file for proprietary raw files, or writes to the header of other file types, increasing their file size. If you accidentally apply one of these edits to all your photos, your catalog could quickly grow enormous, so exercise caution when syncing edits or creating presets.

This makes it even more important that you store your Lightroom catalog on a medium with the fastest possible access time—i.e., a solid-state drive.  (I've never detected any performance penalty from storing the image files themselves on spinning disks.)

mcbroomf

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Re: Super Resolution and Denoise
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2025, 08:05:16 pm »

Unfortunately Denoise and Super Rez are still not available at the same time on the Raw.
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Rand47

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Re: Super Resolution and Denoise
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2025, 09:30:42 am »

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