Impact of more inks on in-gamut colors?

[gkroeger]

I have an Epson P800 and now plan to purchase a 24" printer, either a P6000 or P7000. I am well aware of the larger gamut volume with the addition of the green and orange inks, but I am curious if there will be differences on less saturated in-gamut colors. For example, will the presence of green ink improve tonal values in prints with foliage... i.e. does the green ink allow improved dot patterns for either smoother tones, or better tonal separation, or are the only improvements on highly saturated colors. Same with orange ink and sunsets?

Glenn

[Mark D Segal]

It depends very much on the specific colours in the photo. If the file contains colour values that exceed the P800 gamut but fall within the P7000 gamut, you will see the added brilliance and colour separation of those colours. Otherwise the remainder of the colours look very much the same - from all that I have observed comparing P800, P5000, Canon Pro-1000, Canon Pro-2000 over the past couple of years.

[gkroeger]

Thanks Mark. 

[Doug Gray]

I have an Epson P800 and now plan to purchase a 24" printer, either a P6000 or P7000. I am well aware of the larger gamut volume with the addition of the green and orange inks, but I am curious if there will be differences on less saturated in-gamut colors. For example, will the presence of green ink improve tonal values in prints with foliage... i.e. does the green ink allow improved dot patterns for either smoother tones, or better tonal separation, or are the only improvements on highly saturated colors. Same with orange ink and sunsets?

Glenn

Hi Glenn,

In addition to Mark's points, which I completely agree with, there is a technique that can be used to see how a possible printer you are thinking about will perform. Find a supplier of papers you are thinking of using and download the profiles for each printer/paper you wish to look at. Install the profiles. Now just examine images with the colors you are most concerned about printing and enable soft proofing. Select, say, your current printer's profile to start. Click OK

Now that you are viewing the soft proof for your current printer just move to one of the profiles you are considering purchasing. Then toggle the preview box on and off to see any difference.

While profiles won't tell you anything about the color dot distribution, these should not be visible without really good eyes viewing inches away or a magnifying glass. I have a Canon 9500II and Epson 9800 and, with custom profiles cannot see any difference in prints I make on either unless the color is in an area where the gamuts differ in covering that particular color. The Canon has Red and Green inks While the Epson doesn't but the Epson has a better DMax and, surprisingly, larger gamut areas in many of the darker colors such as the darker greens. OTOH, the Canon can print brighter and more saturated greens, oranges and reds. Proof viewing is one way to tell what the printer is capable of and whether it's an issue with your images.

Still, there are printable colors on all printers that even wide gamut monitors can't display. If you encounter or suspect this, a workaround of sorts is to decrease the color monitor saturation 20 to 30% in Photoshop's "Settings." While the proofs will be less saturated than an actual print, this will extend the monitor's response so one can view differences in how a printer will handle colors normally outside the monitor's gamut via the above technique.

[mearussi]

Hi Glenn,

In addition to Mark's points, which I completely agree with, there is a technique that can be used to see how a possible printer you are thinking about will perform. Find a supplier of papers you are thinking of using and download the profiles for each printer/paper you wish to look at. Install the profiles. Now just examine images with the colors you are most concerned about printing and enable soft proofing. Select, say, your current printer's profile to start. Click OK

Now that you are viewing the soft proof for your current printer just move to one of the profiles you are considering purchasing. Then toggle the preview box on and off to see any difference.

While profiles won't tell you anything about the color dot distribution, these should not be visible without really good eyes viewing inches away or a magnifying glass. I have a Canon 9500II and Epson 9800 and, with custom profiles cannot see any difference in prints I make on either unless the color is in an area where the gamuts differ in covering that particular color. The Canon has Red and Green inks While the Epson doesn't but the Epson has a better DMax and, surprisingly, larger gamut areas in many of the darker colors such as the darker greens. OTOH, the Canon can print brighter and more saturated greens, oranges and reds. Proof viewing is one way to tell what the printer is capable of and whether it's an issue with your images.

Still, there are printable colors on all printers that even wide gamut monitors can't display. If you encounter or suspect this, a workaround of sorts is to decrease the color monitor saturation 20 to 30% in Photoshop's "Settings." While the proofs will be less saturated than an actual print, this will extend the monitor's response so one can view differences in how a printer will handle colors normally outside the monitor's gamut via the above technique.

Would be nice it if were actually that easy. But for your suggestion to work you'd need a monitor that can perfectly duplicate the full gamut of a given paper/ink combination. At the present time no such monitor exists. The present paper/ink gamut exceeds every monitor on the market. The only way to accurately check is to do a print comparison.

[Doug Gray]

Would be nice it if were actually that easy. But for your suggestion to work you'd need a monitor that can perfectly duplicate the full gamut of a given paper/ink combination. At the present time no such monitor exists. The present paper/ink gamut exceeds every monitor on the market. The only way to accurately check is to do a print comparison.

How do you propose someone looking to purchase a printer do anything other than guess whether any given printer they don't have will be able to print "accurately" any given image they have?

As for monitor's being unable to show all colors a printer is capable of, this is often stated and can be misleading without pointing out the rest.

Even a lowly standard monitor with a display limited to sRGB (after profiling) displays roughly as many unprintable colors as there are printable colors that will be clipped and cannot be accurately displayed. Hence soft proofing adds value even for these.

A wide gamut monitor displays about 10 times more colors than printers can print compared to the much smaller number of printable colors that can't be displayed.

However, if one is specifically interested in whether an image can be printed with better color due to increased, specialized inks, the technique I use works quite well. It enlarges the monitor's response gamut by desaturating all colors. It is similar to the desaturation that occurs when viewing a luster print in diffuse ambient light. Comparing soft proofs by this technique is just as useful, gamut wise, as comparing physical prints side by side in diffuse light rather than strong lighting at 45 degrees in an otherwise darkened environment*. The prints will be somewhat desaturated and inaccurate  but differences are visible.

But the larger issue that makes for different looking prints are those from texture, bronzing, lighting not sufficiently close to D50, amongst others. And those (aside from lighting which can be addressed by special profiles) are outside the scope of profile technology and monitor's generally. A theoretical gamut larger than a printer doesn't address those. They remain and only physical print comparisons resolves differences.

So physically comparing prints is highly desirable, but infrequently because of monitor gamut limitations.

* The 45 degrees lighting is necessary when viewing prints for "accurate" color since that is how profile targets are measured with a spectrophotometer.

[mearussi]

How do you propose someone looking to purchase a printer do anything other than guess whether any given printer they don't have will be able to print "accurately" any given image they have?

As for monitor's being unable to show all colors a printer is capable of, this is often stated and can be misleading without pointing out the rest.

Even a lowly standard monitor with a display limited to sRGB (after profiling) displays roughly as many unprintable colors as there are printable colors that will be clipped and cannot be accurately displayed. Hence soft proofing adds value even for these.

A wide gamut monitor displays about 10 times more colors than printers can print compared to the much smaller number of printable colors that can't be displayed.

However, if one is specifically interested in whether an image can be printed with better color due to increased, specialized inks, the technique I use works quite well. It enlarges the monitor's response gamut by desaturating all colors. It is similar to the desaturation that occurs when viewing a luster print in diffuse ambient light. Comparing soft proofs by this technique is just as useful, gamut wise, as comparing physical prints side by side in diffuse light rather than strong lighting at 45 degrees in an otherwise darkened environment*. The prints will be somewhat desaturated and inaccurate  but differences are visible.

But the larger issue that makes for different looking prints are those from texture, bronzing, lighting not sufficiently close to D50, amongst others. And those (aside from lighting which can be addressed by special profiles) are outside the scope of profile technology and monitor's generally. A theoretical gamut larger than a printer doesn't address those. They remain and only physical print comparisons resolves differences.

So physically comparing prints is highly desirable, but infrequently because of monitor gamut limitations.

* The 45 degrees lighting is necessary when viewing prints for "accurate" color since that is how profile targets are measured with a spectrophotometer.

For gross differences you are correct, but the OP was specifically asking about fine (subtle) differences in the ProPhoto RGB gamut range, which no monitor can show.

[Doug Gray]

For gross differences you are correct, but the OP was specifically asking about fine (subtle) differences in the ProPhoto RGB gamut range, which no monitor can show.

I haven't run into any issues involving subtle differences on either or my printers when printing colors within the printer's gamut and using Rel. Col. Intent. Perceptual is a different story because the gamut mapping is smooshed well inside the gamut edges so occasionally are some differences due to how the two printer's profiles compress in areas where one gamut varies significantly from the other.

Do you have any specifics that might shed a light on what specifically the OP is concerned about? Hard to tell exactly what the issue is if not behavior near gamut edges and that's all I've encountered.

BTW, I think this is potentially a real issue though I haven't seen it personally nor seen reviews referencing it specifically, but suspect it is an issue on occasion. Perhaps showing up on an image with a smooth gradient that exhibits perceivable bumps when printed but is well inside the printable gamut. Perhaps caused by abrupt change in ink distribution.

[Ernst Dinkla]

I have an Epson P800 and now plan to purchase a 24" printer, either a P6000 or P7000. I am well aware of the larger gamut volume with the addition of the green and orange inks, but I am curious if there will be differences on less saturated in-gamut colors. For example, will the presence of green ink improve tonal values in prints with foliage... i.e. does the green ink allow improved dot patterns for either smoother tones, or better tonal separation, or are the only improvements on highly saturated colors. Same with orange ink and sunsets?

Glenn

N-color mixing. Depends on the way the CMY ink mixes are substituted by Grey inks (up to the neutral spine of the gamut) or by Extra ink hues in saturated areas.  There have been threads on the subject, like this one;
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=60271.0

So it depends on how the Epson wider ink set is used in the media preset descriptions, if the extra ink hues are only called within a certain hue angle and above a certain saturation there should not be a difference to a smaller ink set Epson, on the condition both are within the gamut of the last. I have no idea whether that is the case. In the past, in general, Epsons had less color ink removal, UCR/GCR, than similar HP models. Partly due to Epson grey inks that were not neutral by themselves. There were other ink mixing tricks used if a certain ink was more prone to a color shift in time it could be compensated by shifting the color mix right away that over time the print remained more constant in color.

A microscope and two prints of a color target tell more where what is laid down. The prints may not show a visual color difference within the gamut of the P800 for both prints but the check can tell what the cause is when a difference is visible.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[deanwork]

The gamut differences are certainly a consideration but for me even more important is how the print heads hold up over time. From all reports I've heard in that 5 years or so regarding the previous Epson series, with 8 inks, such as 9890 and 7890, they had less head pressure and total head failure issues and major service calls than the 10 ink versions ( 9900 and 7900 ) that were notorious for fatal nozzle drops.

It seems like all the new Epsons in the 24 and 44 inch size are an improvement with less complaints, and may very well last longer and create much less headaches. And there may be no significant long term difference in the way 8 and 10 channel models hold up but .........we don't know yet. They all seem to have less clogging problems so far, in general.

But I do know a guy who replaced his 9900 that had a lot of major head issues, with a P 9000 and the new printer already had to have the head replaced. That wasn't a good sign for me. He was very lucky in that he was still barely within the warranty period. Of course you can't make a judgement on one story. I guess we will start hearing about differences between the 8 channel and 10 channel models fairly soon, as well as the differences with them compared to the p10k and 20k models with quite different ( and more robust? ) head design. it would be nice to know what Epson's repair reports have discovered from all the sales so far.

John









 may not be a difference in performance





quote author=gkroeger link=topic=123122.msg1026359#msg1026359 date=1518141276]
I have an Epson P800 and now plan to purchase a 24" printer, either a P6000 or P7000. I am well aware of the larger gamut volume with the addition of the green and orange inks, but I am curious if there will be differences on less saturated in-gamut colors. For example, will the presence of green ink improve tonal values in prints with foliage... i.e. does the green ink allow improved dot patterns for either smoother tones, or better tonal separation, or are the only improvements on highly saturated colors. Same with orange ink and sunsets?

Glenn
[/quote]

[mearussi]

I haven't run into any issues involving subtle differences on either or my printers when printing colors within the printer's gamut and using Rel. Col. Intent. Perceptual is a different story because the gamut mapping is smooshed well inside the gamut edges so occasionally are some differences due to how the two printer's profiles compress in areas where one gamut varies significantly from the other.

Do you have any specifics that might shed a light on what specifically the OP is concerned about? Hard to tell exactly what the issue is if not behavior near gamut edges and that's all I've encountered.

BTW, I think this is potentially a real issue though I haven't seen it personally nor seen reviews referencing it specifically, but suspect it is an issue on occasion. Perhaps showing up on an image with a smooth gradient that exhibits perceivable bumps when printed but is well inside the printable gamut. Perhaps caused by abrupt change in ink distribution.

The best example, of course, is from my own experiment in testing the difference between Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB. I have a sRGB monitor and when comparing the two different color spaces (created individually from the original raw file and then one saved as a tiff to Adobe RGB and another one to ProPhoto RGB) I couldn't see any difference on my monitor but when I printed both files out the ProPhoto RGB file had greater saturation in the red. That's why I don't completely trust what I see on my monitor because the monitor can't duplicate fully what the printer is capable of printing.

[Doug Gray]

The best example, of course, is from my own experiment in testing the difference between Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB. I have a sRGB monitor and when comparing the two different color spaces (created individually from the original raw file and then one saved as a tiff to Adobe RGB and another one to ProPhoto RGB) I couldn't see any difference on my monitor but when I printed both files out the ProPhoto RGB file had greater saturation in the red. That's why I don't completely trust what I see on my monitor because the monitor can't duplicate fully what the printer is capable of printing.

Well then I suspect you will find the attached image in ProPhoto RGB of a single hue interesting.

It will appear very differently on wide and narrow gamut monitors and, when printed, even more different!

If you download and view it in Photoshop with a color managed monitor:

1. It will appear as a light blue/cyan rectangle on most narrow monitors.
2. On a wide gamut monitor, it will appear to be a much more highly saturated on the left than on the right.
3. If you print the image, using either Perceptual or Relative it will be darker because the printer can't print these colors. Using view proof can be very effective at showing what will be printed and decreasing color saturation in the settings can provide an even better match between a print and soft proof for this particular color.

To do this, go into settings and desaturate colors 25%. You will suddenly see a large difference from the left to the right even though these colors exceed narrow gamut displays. It may give you a better soft proof match to a print as well.

[Doug Gray]

The point of all this is simply to show that just because you may not see color changes on a monitor but get them when printing in a fully color managed environment, it doesn't indicate the printer is defective at printing in gamut colors.

Here's another example of colors looking different - or the same - depending on viewing colorspace. These also print very differently from how they appear. If at least 1 of the three blue text lines are not clearly visible and you have a wide gamut monitor and your web browser is converting everything to sRGB. Download and view in Photoshop.

Things to do:

1. View on wide gamut monitor or, if only a narrow gamut monitor view with colors desaturated in the color settings dialog.
2. When all three text lines are clearly visible soft proof against Adobe RGB and sRGB to see the stark differences
3. Soft proof against a printer profile to see the really large differences between a monitor image and what is printable.
4. Print it and compare against the printer soft proof.

[digitaldog]

Would be nice it if were actually that easy. But for your suggestion to work you'd need a monitor that can perfectly duplicate the full gamut of a given paper/ink combination.

Not possible. The display is the issue here for one. Using tools that plot the gamut of scenes (measured or rendered) over the gamut plots of color spaces let us do this but it's not cheap in terms of the software tools (ColorThink Pro). for example:

Everything you thought you wanted to know about color gamut
A pretty exhaustive 37 minute video examining the color gamut of RGB working spaces, images and output color spaces. All plotted in 2D and 3D to illustrate color gamut.

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorGamut.mov
Low Res (YouTube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0bxSD-Xx-Q