Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Brian Hirschfeld on April 16, 2015, 06:33:20 pm
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Hello everybody,
As some of you may have noticed my presence on the forums has greatly decreased lately, because I have been working very hard on a new medium format digital back company that I have created. We received an initial round of funding and have begun the prototyping process. Currently we are looking to raise a second round of funding, as part of that we have created a survey to help us create the best possible product that will appeal to as many people as possible. If you could please take my survey, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
You can take the Survey here at http://www.squarecameras.com (http://www.squarecameras.com)
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Best wishes Brian!
It's always good to see more activity in the medium format digital space!
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What camera brands do you currently shoot? *
dont forget the contax users ;)
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Good luck with this Brian!
However I stumbled on the question "What features are most important to you in a digital back?" as I wanted all those options listed..... :-\
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Hello everybody,
As some of you may have noticed my presence on the forums has greatly decreased lately, because I have been working very hard on a new medium format digital back company that I have created. We received an initial round of funding and have begun the prototyping process. Currently we are looking to raise a second round of funding, as part of that we have created a survey to help us create the best possible product that will appeal to as many people as possible. If you could please take my survey, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
You can take the Survey here at http://www.squarecameras.com (http://www.squarecameras.com)
Good luck! Would love to see some prototype shots, but I'm assuming that's coming through with a marketing campaign.
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Thanks for the support and taking the Survey guys! results have been great thus far.
Thanks Doug for your support as always.
Yes, the Survey has a few flaws in it. @drevil One of them being the lack of Contax related questions, In my mind I was more surveying existing camera brands, but that was certainly an oversight since the Contax community is in fact still vibrant and the cameras are popular (deservedly so since they are excellent) even though the cameras are no longer made. @gazwas yes that was also a slight oversight in the construction of the survey, there should've been a limited number that you could choose (though you were free to select all of them) it made for a relatively weak survey question, but the results have been very interesting hearing from the community about what they want (even if it is all of those things ;) )
@Chris Valites, correct prototypes are being kept very much under wraps at the moment. :)
Thanks again for your support everyone.
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Brian, other than complently forgetting the Contax users, you also forgot multishot in you Q about MFDB features... Also, Fuji GX680 users are excluded... So I guess, a good part of the market is unable to participate... Best of luck with your project.
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Yes that is true, though even though it is an oversight, again the survey was more focused on existing cameras.
I can assure you that they are in the pipeline given their lack of meaningful coverage by existing digital backs.
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over at getdpi we talked about that lately and doug reported that p1 sales with contax mount are still going strong, i would be very sad if "we" would be left out ;)
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Used Contax 645 prices have never been so high. Very high demand.
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Used Contax 645 prices have never been so high. Very high demand.
Driven in large part I suspect by the "wedding in film" movement who are very keen on the system.
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Driven in large part I suspect by the "wedding in film" movement who are very keen on the system.
They are... aren't they? ..but I believe saying "wedding in film" restricts things a bit... It's the fast lenses, the body's superb yet modern ergonomics and the quality of glass all combined that keeps the system surprising strong... It just happens that the combination of the above suits wedding photographers too...
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It just happens that the combination of the above suits wedding photographers too...
Indeed, but a small number of those are very "vocal" and without that push, good though the system is, the demand would be much less I suspect. But then that's all guesswork and conjecture on my part and if the backs are selling well that's enough of a push not to leave them out of a solution.
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Indeed, but a small number of those are very "vocal" and without that push, good though the system is, the demand would be much less I suspect. But then that's all guesswork and conjecture on my part and if the backs are selling well that's enough of a push not to leave them out of a solution.
As is obvious from my previous answer, I mostly agree... but this has to do with the camera's demand and prices rising all the time, OTOH, as you said, wedding photographers mostly use film with it while Doug suggested that MFDB sales for Contax are still strong... So my guess is that demand would still be strong if the camera wouldn't become so popular among wedding photographers... only the prices would be (a bit) lower... Still, it's all guesswork I suppose. ::)
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There is so much "noise" around the Contax 645 lately that it wouldn't surprise me if the C645 gets resurrected from its ashes... Dealers seem to love it for a trade... All Ebay offerings disappear and prices keep rising surprisingly high for a now old system... MFDBs for Contax are on very high demand (the same back costs more if it is for C645)... Leica made an adapter for the lenses (I guess to compete with new backs demand for the system)... and there are adapters (like JAS) for Canon, Nikon & Sony A that make possible for one to use the lenses on both MF & DSLR...
I guess if Contax would be resurrected, a new camera body wouldn't be more than double the price of a (now) very old S/H body... It looks like perfect ground... lets see... (fingers crossed). :o
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Never used a Contax so these are just Sunday evening rumblings but is the popularity/nostalgia/admiration/notoriety of the Contax system pretty much down to the fact that they don't make it any more much like the Xpan, Mamiya 7, HY6 etc, etc? New sales of the time couldn't support their continued manufacture hence why they stopped being made. If they stopped making the Phamiya DF tomorrow, would in a few years we be all praising this wonderful forward thinking camera with its excellent range of Schneider lenses rather than rubbish is as we do today?
Sorry for being OT Brian.
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New sales of the time couldn't support their continued manufacture hence why they stopped being made.
The Contax system wasn't stopped because there wasn't enough demand... it was stopped because there was a disagreement between the two parties involved... (Zeiss & Kyocera).
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Hi,
Mostly because Kyocera left the photography business.
Best regards
Erik
The Contax system wasn't stopped because there wasn't enough demand... it was stopped because there was a disagreement between the two parties involved... (Zeiss & Kyocera).
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Best wishes, Brian. More choice is always good.
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I've jumped on the Pentax ship since I didn't really need a back-style camera for tech cam use, but a friend of mine does, and we both agree on many features for a potential future back.
I'll list the points here since a survey likely won't convey this information.
- sensor as close to full 645 size as possible, but more than 50mp is overkill for most things, work on shallow incident light performance for tech users instead.
- definitely CMOS, because of real-time liveview magnification, it's what kept me from getting into digital backs years past.
- tilt or maybe even a swivel screen, I didn't know how much I needed one until recently. phone/tablet tethering isn't a solution.
- it would be cool if the back had a HD-SDI or HDMI port to allow users to connect their own HD monitors to the back.
- low-latency performance. Waiting an eternity for image preview to show up on the 645D is why I never bought into the system before.
- open source software platform to allow for custom firmware, additions and tweaks by the community - think Magic Lantern for the Canon cameras but as the official driver.
- a big battery.
If this theoretical back were available mid last year and cost less than $10K, I may have not have had the 645Z right now.
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@gazwas certainly discussing what people want and use and why they want and use it is not off topic! And as @synn says and its something that I happen to believe is that more options are what we need. Its something that we had (well I guess still have) with film cameras, and have largely lost due to the "one camera must do everything" convergence. I think that in many situations this convergence is important and democratizing, but I also think that as the survey results have shown, people love specialized cameras like their film cameras, but want the convince of digital.
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With all due respect, Brian, I cannot help but think you are climbing an uphill battle or falling into a rabbit hole. I cannot imagine a profitable business model for a MFD start up ... perhaps I lack imagination. Do you have a release date set? Is there a beta version? There are a lot of interesting open source solutions out there--ranging from Phase/Mamiya to Hasselblad to Contax. The Pentax 645Z is a nice standalone package, Phase has great backs, and Hasselblad has two excellent open source bodies ... lest we forget to mention tech cameras, such as that nifty little Cambo Actus.
Another 800-pound gorilla in the room is Olympus's implementation of sensor-shift technology and Ricoh/Pentax's plan to develop a 35mm sensor-shift camera.
I wish you success and sincerely hope you and your angels are able to develop an innovative and competitive product. We are all watching with baited breath.
Final note: Have you thought about distribution channels? It's one thing to have a product, but it's as important, if not more, to have a network of dealers--VARs. As a former marketing consultant, I suggest you gather market intelligence to identify whether or not you will have buy-in from dealers.
I don't want to discourage your endeavor. However, I have seen a lot of businesses go belly up before product ever reached market. I witnessed a lot of carnage when the tech bubble popped.
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With all due respect, Brian, I cannot help but think you are climbing an uphill battle or falling into a rabbit hole. I cannot imagine a profitable business model for a MFD start up ... perhaps I lack imagination. Do you have a release date set? Is there a beta version? There are a lot of interesting open source solutions out there--ranging from Phase/Mamiya to Hasselblad to Contax. The Pentax 645Z is a nice standalone package, Phase has great backs, and Hasselblad has two excellent open source bodies ... lest we forget to mention tech cameras, such as that nifty little Cambo Actus.
Another 800-pound gorilla in the room is Olympus's implementation of sensor-shift technology and Ricoh/Pentax's plan to develop a 35mm sensor-shift camera.
I wish you success and sincerely hope you and your angels are able to develop an innovative and competitive product. We are all watching with baited breath.
Final note: Have you thought about distribution channels? It's one thing to have a product, but it's as important, if not more, to have a network of dealers--VARs. As a former marketing consultant, I suggest you gather market intelligence to identify whether or not you will have buy-in from dealers.
I don't want to discourage your endeavor. However, I have seen a lot of businesses go belly up before product ever reached market. I witnessed a lot of carnage when the tech bubble popped.
Yes, using open source camera systems is the way to go, that is what my product is going to be for. I feel that there is room for another MFDB player on the market because there are products that people want that do not exist. From all reports the Pentax 645z seems to be a great camera, however its biggest weakness is that it is not a removable MFDB.
My personal opinion on smaller formats is (obviously they are great, we all use them depending on the application) that they will never be able to replace physically lager (medium format) sensors and cameras.
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I wonder what numbers do you think that a new "open system" camera body may be able to achieve... My impression is that "open system" stand alone MF DSLR bodies (i.e. Phamiya & Hasselblad H) sold annually as new, are not that many...
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Sorry, there seems to be a bit of confusion. My company is making a medium format digital back and not a medium format camera body. My Previous comment was meant to express that we are going to use existing "open" camera mounts like Contax etc.
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Sorry, there seems to be a bit of confusion. My company is making a medium format digital back and not a medium format camera body. My Previous comment was meant to express that we are going to use existing "open" camera mounts like Contax etc.
Oh... Sorry Brian, my bad! I thought it was a camera + back combo... Well, I may as well tell you what I consider the best possible back for me would be...
My "dream" back would be the Dalsa 33mp chip, expanded to 54 x 40.5mm size for 41.5mp and able to shoot 16x multishot for 166mp in true colour but in a self contained version for single shot... Alternatively, if it was for CMOS, I would like the (same pixel pitch) Nikon 16.5mp FF sensor expended to the same size/resolution and (again) with a 16X multishot ability on it... Since these are not offered, I now settle on the closest alternative which is the Hassy CF-39MS for my Contax and have the Sinarback 54H for when 16x is needed.
P.S. Interchangeable mount plates is a very nice thing to have rather than having to change the back if one decides to change platform...
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i also think that a business model might work well, which phase etc. are totally ignoring.......low MP entrance backs.
i think it would be still be very nice to have 20-40mp backs for quite a affordable price. i think much more people are interested to buy into MF than most think.
even now, with 50mp FF 35mm cameras appearing i think people would be still drawn to MF.
just my 2 cents
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i also think that a business model might work well, which phase etc. are totally ignoring.......low MP entrance backs.
i think it would be still be very nice to have 20-40mp backs for quite a affordable price. i think much more people are interested to buy into MF than most think.
even now, with 50mp FF 35mm cameras appearing i think people would be still drawn to MF.
just my 2 cents
+1
An affordable, 40Mpix 645 full frame CMOS back with all the advantages of the current Sony chips (live view, DR, good ISO range) that is a truly open platform would be much more desirable system than anything else currently on the 35mm or MFD market IMO.
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Realistically, I would probably try to undercut the competition by cutting features down to the bare minimum, while also focusing on high-end performance. A really nice sensor, a screen at least as good as on a recent DSLR, and snappy software with Raw histogram, all put in a cheap box. Since the 645Z is a fully featured camera, I feel a similarly-specced back should be much cheaper.
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+1
An affordable, 40Mpix 645 full frame CMOS back with all the advantages of the current Sony chips (live view, DR, good ISO range) that is a truly open platform would be much more desirable system than anything else currently on the 35mm or MFD market IMO.
+2 from my daughter and myself.
P.S. My daughter shoots weddings and some other stuff with a film Contax 654 and the Nikons. She adapted my old Sinar eMotion 22 for her Contax and is looking for a Contax mount PhaseOne back because she hates the Sinar's software and loves the CaptureOne and PhaseOne look.
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Yes... This is absolutely right. This is my opinion too!!!
+1
An affordable, 40Mpix 645 full frame CMOS back with all the advantages of the current Sony chips (live view, DR, good ISO range) that is a truly open platform would be much more desirable system than anything else currently on the 35mm or MFD market IMO.
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A 54x40,5mm CMOS back with 41.5mp... Double DF's low light abilities, Double DF's IQ, fast enough for sports, dream back for view & tech cameras, I believe it sweeps the cards off the table. If followed be an MS version... game over!
What is missing? hmmm... a C645 resurrection! :D
I believe if one looks on peoples responses, he should come down to the following conclusions (on that order):
1. What matters most for the majority of people is sensor size over resolution.
2. High quality LV performance is a crucial factor for investing on an MFDB.
3. Ability to use the back with extreme movements on view/tech cameras is required additionally to performance on DSLR bodies.
4. Considerable improvement on higher ISO quality is required.
5. Anything else that differentiates the back from competition and makes an additional purchase obsolete is welcomed (multishot ability, long exposures, video ability, interchangeable mount plates... etc).
6. Price
If a maker comes with such a back, I believe he will crush the market (and will give a new boost to MF). IMO, I can see no other (out of the current) maker able to come with such a back than Sinar... I believe that if Leica's new sensor (for the S007) technology, will pass on to new Sinarbacks (which is very possible since Sinar is a "family" company now) and thus, a back that will combine all the above is very possible indeed.
I don't say this to provoke Brian's plans, I only suggest that another company entering the MF digital market must consider not only current offerings, but future possibilities of offerings in addition.
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I've always wanted to see a big square sensor myself. Brian I wish you luck!
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I've always wanted to see a big square sensor myself. Brian I wish you luck!
why? ...there are no more 6x6 camera bodies made out there! A back for old systems only? ...who would invest on loosing money?
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Thanks for the responses everyone, without giving too much away of what is to come, All I can say is that I think most of you will be very pleased with our initial product and I can definitely say that your input here and on the survey has helped to determine what (hopefully) our future roadmap will be in the future.
Responses to the survey have been absolutely fantastic and exceeded my personal expectations, both in terms of the quality and the quantity of responses. Because of the large number of responses I raised my personal goal for the number of responses, so if you haven't please take the survey! Thank you all again.
Best,
BH
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why? ...there are no more 6x6 camera bodies made out there! A back for old systems only? ...who would invest on loosing money?
I have never seen an estimate of the number of "V" bodies produced in total but selling to a tiny fraction of that installed base should turn a profit. In fact Hasselblad seem to think so as well selling the CMOS back in that mount and even more amazing actually promoting it.
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I have never seen an estimate of the number of "V" bodies produced in total but selling to a tiny fraction of that installed base should turn a profit. In fact Hasselblad seem to think so as well selling the CMOS back in that mount and even more amazing actually promoting it.
Interesting POV... I wonder what is the percentage of backs sold for V bodies annually.... what was it last year?
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Just filled out for you -
Very interested to see what you may be developing.
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Interesting POV... I wonder what is the percentage of backs sold for V bodies annually.... what was it last year?
I think the more interesting number is the number of new IQ backs with V mounts being sold. Hass knows there is a market for the V back, otherwise Phase would end their support as well.
The base information that DT/CI have as to sales numbers breakdowns would be fun to work with. H/V/Contax numbers compared to Mamiya numbers, plus trending over upgrades across a decade.
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I think the more interesting number is the number of new IQ backs with V mounts being sold. Hass knows there is a market for the V back, otherwise Phase would end their support as well.
The base information that DT/CI have as to sales numbers breakdowns would be fun to work with. H/V/Contax numbers compared to Mamiya numbers, plus trending over upgrades across a decade.
There is no doubt that you are right, I absolutely agree with you. My reply on which you quoted wasn't to suggest that there aren't enough V mount backs made, but rather to question the future of a big sensor square back that would only be able to be used on 6x6 or larger image area cameras that others suggested... I believe that such a decision for a new company would be a financial disaster, since there would be (most probably cheaper) competition for only a much smaller section of the whole MFDB possible market which is based on 6x4.5 cameras.
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Hello guys,
My Info is: the same management has ended the V series like the build of the tuned Sony cameras stellar.... Now it is no question for me the the end of production of the V-series is a other mistake too...
But this is my opinion.
My question to the new digital back is the sensor. In my opinion it is impossible to build and design a sensor for a small company. Brian has to use a sensor from the existing sensor.
If we want CMOS and full frame 645 this is impossible. Because this sensor does not exist...
If Brian use the Sony CMOS he have to pay the same price like Hassi or zzz P1. The price of the new back would be very similar to the competitor's prices.
If we want a cheaper back we have to make some allowances to Brian.
My dream back is a 30-40 mpix back with a good LCD monitor to check 100%. One very good goodie would be life view to use it on a technical camera without ground glass.
One other possibility is to mod a Sony 7r to use it with wide angle lenses from Schneider or Rodie Because if the focal flange distance. With a smaller chip but cheaper..
Cyron
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I'd expect the 50MP Sony CMOS sensors to cost around $800 in small batches.
The sensors used by Leica won't be available without Leica's approval.
Edmund
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I'd expect the 50MP Sony CMOS sensors to cost around $800 in small batches.
The sensors used by Leica won't be available without Leica's approval.
Edmund
My question to the new digital back is the sensor. In my opinion it is impossible to build and design a sensor for a small company. Brian has to use a sensor from the existing sensor.
If we want CMOS and full frame 645 this is impossible. Because this sensor does not exist...
If Brian use the Sony CMOS he have to pay the same price like Hassi or zzz P1. The price of the new back would be very similar to the competitor's prices.
If we want a cheaper back we have to make some allowances to Brian.
My dream back is a 30-40 mpix back with a good LCD monitor to check 100%. One very good goodie would be life view to use it on a technical camera without ground glass.
One other possibility is to mod a Sony 7r to use it with wide angle lenses from Schneider or Rodie Because if the focal flange distance. With a smaller chip but cheaper..
Cyron
My dream back is actually not a back but a A7R like medium format camera and a bunch of adapters so I can use basically any lens made. Cost? About $5k.
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The sensors used by Leica won't be available without Leica's approval.
I'm not sure that anyone would want to use them, sensor tech is not Leica's strong suit and they've always had to compensate with immaculate camera and lens design. Unless their "new" sensor blows the doors off on everyone's expectations, it would have been better to just go with the herd and commission Sony.
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I'm not sure that anyone would want to use them, sensor tech is not Leica's strong suit and they've always had to compensate with immaculate camera and lens design. Unless their "new" sensor blows the doors off on everyone's expectations, it would have been better to just go with the herd and commission Sony.
It is a bit early to say that, isn't it... Nobody has seen any output yet from the new S007 sensor.
I was looking at some sample images yesterday from the new Monochrome at ISO 12, 500 and they look very good IMO. Also not a Sony sensor...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/leicarumors/sets/72157652274585121/
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Hello guys,
One more question:
Is it possible to use a Mamiya or a Hasselblad H or V interface? I think about rights patents that are at their companies...
Without a permission to build a Mamiya interface back for example from phase one. This is a problem. In my opinion those permissions could be very very high..
Cyron
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The other thing is: Brian only want to build a back for technical cameras... With this he need only the geometry not the electrical contacts and their protocol.
My 2cent...
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It is a bit early to say that, isn't it... Nobody has seen any output yet from the new S007 sensor.
I'd have been more optimistic if the S was more reasonably priced, Phase and Hass can charge the prices they do because tech cam users have no other choice - yet. The Sony sensor is a real heavy-hitter that doesn't compromise in resolution, DR nor high-ISO performance, so Leica has some proving to do if they wish to charge $25K for something other than brand name.
I was looking at some sample images yesterday from the new Monochrome at ISO 12, 500 and they look very good IMO. Also not a Sony sensor...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/leicarumors/sets/72157652274585121/
Any sensor without a bayer filter over it is going to perform significantly better than with. The old monochrome punched well above its weight just because of that. I'm sure a monochrome 645Z would have immensely high sensitivity levels.
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The Sony sensor is a real heavy-hitter that doesn't compromise in resolution, DR nor high-ISO performance, so Leica has some proving to do if they wish to charge $25K for something other than brand name.
I am sure the Sony sensor is very good but for a lot of people other things like the photographic experience are just as important.
I have never used a Pentax 645Z, so I can't comment on that one, but in the 35mm and APS-C world the choice between Leica and Sony is, at least for me, an easy one, despite the sensor edge of Sony.
As always your mileage may vary.
Any sensor without a bayer filter over it is going to perform significantly better than with. The old monochrome punched well above its weight just because of that. I'm sure a monochrome 645Z would have immensely high sensitivity levels.
Again I am sure you are probably right but Leica did have the balls to release such a camera and most others up till now didn't... Credits to Phase One also for their Achromatic.
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I am sure the Sony sensor is very good but for a lot of people other things like the photographic experience are just as important.
I have never used a Pentax 645Z, so I can't comment on that one, but in the 35mm and APS-C world the choice between Leica and Sony is, at least for me, an easy one, despite the sensor edge of Sony.
Well, photographic experience is part of why I'm being so critical, I really wanted to own an S or CMOS-based successor, but I also do lots of technical photography where every bit of resolution and DR matters, which also made me consider an IQ180 in the past. Kind of a work vs. play moment. The 645Z is fun to use but it's also an inexpensive sensor-in-a-box for work.
Given the medium format camera prices, I doubt many buy these cameras for an experience unless they have lots of disposable income or their business is large enough that neither a $10K or $30K camera would significantly matter against other expenditures like hiring artists, transportation, lighting, studio rent and what have you.
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Interesting! I hope it will go well, but it's tough out there.
I think one of the best markets would be a fairly economical tech cam back, great enthusiast potential in a market where digibacks are unproportionally expensive compared to the rest of the hardware. I think lower cost backs could make several now shooting 35mm step up to MF. And there's no complex communication with body. Live view, color cast, sensor size are difficult technical challenges though which really can't be overcome by a small player, one must use the sensors that exist.
CCD is dying, so the Sony CMOS is the natural choice, but it's not the best for tech cameras due to color cast and crosstalk, but it sort of works anyway, maybe good enough? Look at how the CFV-50 is going.
Maybe there's a niche for something crazy like a 6x6 CCDs without rear screen that V-mount and Hy6 users would use. Custom-sized CCDs seems to be quite easy to get, but the price will be entirely different then.
I think the most realistic product would be something like the CFV-50 at say $7000. If it's a product similar to anything existing it must be cheaper I think, because it will be difficult to be better. Working live view is then a must since that is the reason why tech cam people can live with the color cast.
Megapixel will be important. It will be hard to sell a product that has lower pixel count than high res 35mm, regardless of quality of pixels or glass. I've just seen how hard the Canon 5Ds has hit the second hand MFDB market in the lower segments, and it's not even delivered yet.
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I've just seen how hard the Canon 5Ds has hit the second hand MFDB market in the lower segments, and it's not even delivered yet.
a few examples being ... ?
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You know...I have to say, I get way, way better color out of my CCD back then my D4/D810. At 200 ISO and below it's not even close. And above 400 ISO, I typically need faster frame rates than MF can provide anyway. To me, how I work, higher ISO w/o a faster (3-4fps min.) frame rate isn't worth a ton.
-Doug
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I'd have been more optimistic if the S was more reasonably priced, Phase and Hass can charge the prices they do because tech cam users have no other choice - yet. The Sony sensor is a real heavy-hitter that doesn't compromise in resolution, DR nor high-ISO performance, so Leica has some proving to do if they wish to charge $25K for something other than brand name.
I believe that it is wrong to look at Leica S as an alternative to MF products only... IMO, S-007 is the only large sensor product that will appeal to FF DSLR users too... Surely the "like DSLR" design was already present at previous S-cameras, but S-007 adds to that characteristics that DSLRs are famous for (LL performance, fast frame rate, video etc...), if one adds that to the body design and takes the aspect ratio into account, there you are... Surely the price is not one to rave for, but again... Out of the millions of FF DSLR possible customers only a very small segment is enough to raise sales on what is unimaginable for the other MF makers...
I bet you that it will be a major success among the better of Wedding Pros all over the world... Especially since too many of them use Contax 645 with film for a good part of their work... It will allow them to share their lenses and reject their DSLRs altogether, yet improving further their prestige... Leica doesn't (obviously) care much for compatibility with tech or view cameras, they have Sinar now to do that... In fact it won't surprise me if they invest onto resurrect Contax as to "bridge" the two systems with common lenses, or if alternatively they buy Hasselblad to do the same...
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a few examples being ... ?
The sales section... both here and in the local market in Sweden which I also monitor. Sales of sub 50MP backs are a bit slower now than they used to be. Could be some other reason, maybe simply that more people are selling. I'm selling a back at a good price, been out for a few months without finding a buyer yet. It's a small market so it's usually slow and I'm in no real hurry, but a year ago I'm quite sure it was not this slow. In the local Swedish market it's most Hasselblads that's selling, very good prices still out for a long time. I got my own Hassy on such a deal, so I enjoyed being in a buyers market. Now I'm experiencing from the other side when selling my other back.
To be really sure you need to file statistics and watch trends etc, which I really haven't done, so it could be my imagination I guess. I do think though that those that don't think there has been any change to the market during the last 12 months have greater imagination than mine.
However, I'm open for the suggestion that the Sony MF CMOS is the real culprit here rather than competition from the smaller formats (although I think it's a combination). I've seen many upgrade within Hassy to H5D-50c for example. The CMOS feature set is hard to resist. Few seem to talk about the "CCD look" any longer.
For this new digital back company these type of trends is something he need to be aware of and come to their own conclusions what the state is. Wishful thinking won't help.
Although I think a 6x6 CCD 40MP back withour rear display would be sellable, you couldn't sell in any large numbers, maybe 10 - 20 worldwide. To sell in large numbers and that way come down in price you need a fairly broad product. I think not using the Sony CMOS would be a great risk... but on the other hand it's difficult with the tech lenses which otherwise would be a key market... unfortunately I think there's currently technical borders in the way to make the optimal back. To me the old CCD CFV-50 with a focus checkable screen would be the current best, and I got a H4D-50 as an alternative (a little bit better screen). In all my discussions about this I've realized that I'm one of very few that appreciate this feature set. People think the CCD is too noisy, no live view and they make great sacrifices on movement flexibility to get that CMOS feature set.
So if I would have a digital back company I would want to make a back much like the CCD CFV-50 as that is what I would buy myself, but realize to sell it would have to look like the CMOS CFV-50c.
I think that Brian may be too early with his company, waiting a few years for the next CMOS generation may be better timing. If the next will work well with tech wide angles it's a no-brainer. For an economical back with no integration with modern MFD bodies (Hassy H and Phamiya) tech cameras must be a key market, and I think it's a good market because it has great enthusiast potential which I think is held back today with the unproportionally expensive digital backs.
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I do think though that those that don't think there has been any change to the market during the last 12 months have greater imagination than mine.
I think it's a good market because it has great enthusiast potential which I think is held back today with the un-proportionally expensive digital backs.
Certainly the UK market is "sticky" in particular for Hasselblad, far fewer Phase backs appear on the market, I suppose it's the usual trade up and disappear scenario. The same camera stick around at the same prices until the owner has to sell then the price tumbles. I am not sad enough, as I am not in the trade, to collect hard data, but a genuine auction realises prices well below 12 moths ago for H3DII and H4 all backs included. A poster here listed a D450 at successively lower prices until it sold, so genuine sale easily checked.
On your second point I begin to wonder about that market, is it as big as we, me included, think? The prices now available are in the Leica M240 range, comfortably, but the rush to buy isn't there. Causes? Less disposable income, "good enough" syndrome ( we are talking an enthusiast, non commercial, market) the rise of the DSLR pixel count and iso usability must be in the mix. In film days the MF advantage was clear, even at small sizes, in quality today in small sizes you would be pushed to guess 50/50, don' tell me MF sold on speed and handling ;)
There is a market for those who don't want to be in the herd, including the wedding niche and the pros who really need a camera that the client doesn't own (often overlooked IMHO it's one of those factors we don't talk about much) after all Leica brought out the M-A all manual no meter, Ok so no commercial risk and development costs but it still needs stock space and cost as well as their monochromes, all niche products where the competition is practically zero. For me that's the market, niche products. Would a realistic in price MFDB monochrome run? Yes Phase did it but at a price where the market largely said "lovely idea" and moved swiftly on. The market I see getting the attention and growing, is as Torger and others note, the technical cameras, another niche. I don't think bottom fishing will give the returns many think is there targeting the niches is the answer, but then I've no money at risk and I'm sitting in my armchair waiting for the rain to ease off so I can drag my P20 off to the bluebells.
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I may be romantic, but I'm thinking about those enthusiasts that shoot 4x5" view cameras for landscape photography. There seems to be a whole lot of them in the UK.
I asked a dealer in the UK which does view cameras and digital systems and my suspicion that enthusiast customer segment is growing was true there, an ever-increasing percentage of the customers are enthusiasts. I didn't ask if it meant that professionals are leaving or if the total market is growing. And yes economy was a strong factor among many customers, but not all. Some enthusiasts have the money to buy "the best", some may come looking for a digital tech cam system and end up using 4x5" film due to the high digital back cost.
Tech cams have movements and the large format style you can derive from that, that is what I would like to be the selling point and I think it is for a few. Unfortunately I see over and over again that the main selling point is not movements, it's resolving power and to be realistic that is what needs to be what the product provides. Equal(ish) resolving power plus movements probably won't sell enough.
Say a camera like Cambo Actus, plus live view digital back plus tech cam wides lenses without color cast issues could be a winner I'm sure, but sensor technology is not fully there yet. In Europe there's been some deals with CFV-50c + view camera + reasonable-wide package deals with lower price than seen before and now live view, if I was Brian I would try to look into how those are selling. CFV-50c on V-mount cameras I've heard is selling pretty well too, I have no idea which is the larger market. My guess is that on V-mount it's more about nostalgia than resolving power, and there the main CMOS win is that you can shoot hand-held in low light.
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Torger ( and Chris Livsey),
Thanks for your appraisal of the MFDb market - always interested to hear other views and perceptions of where we're heading. I agree that the immediate outlook is governed by the SONY 50mp CMOS sensor but suspect that by the end of this year we'll see what the Canon and expected SONY FF cams deliver in terms of IQ.
Less than a year ago I was certain that I'd be moving (back) to MF, now it's anything but a certainty. There are pros on this forum who've already expressed the intention of moving from IQ260 to an all SONY A7r setup. What was initially viewed as a 'toy' camera is suddenly serious competition - and I say that knowing full well all the drawbacks of the A7r.
Bottom line is that MFDB can't fight the tide of ever decreasing pricing coupled with increasing IQ indefinitely. The move to 5x4 and 10x8 doesn't surprise me - it's there that the quality differential still exists ( overlooking the 'snob' value of shooting with such a cam).
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Hi,
The survey may have indicated that Brian plans to have a quite affordable price point on the new back. Obviously, a back can be made at a decent cost. The Pentax 645Z is almost affordable and it also includes an advanced MF camera.
A larger sensor will always offer some benefits. More photons collected and higher resolution.
Regarding the new high resolution 135 bodies, we have to wait and see. I would guess that the Canon 5Ds with excellent lenses will outperform 50 MP MFDs with not so good lenses. High end MFD with 80 MP and HR lenses will outperform anything 135 for sure.
The new Zeiss lenses for the Sony are very promising.
I guess that the competitive landscape got more complex.
I enclose a couple of actual pixel crops shot with my Sony Alpha 99 (24 MP) and a 25 year old Minolta Macro and my P45+ using a Hasselblad Macro Planar 120/4. Same image pair, different crops.
Best regards
Erik
Torger ( and Chris Livsey),
Thanks for your appraisal of the MFDb market - always interested to hear other views and perceptions of where we're heading. I agree that the immediate outlook is governed by the SONY 50mp CMOS sensor but suspect that by the end of this year we'll see what the Canon and expected SONY FF cams deliver in terms of IQ.
Less than a year ago I was certain that I'd be moving (back) to MF, now it's anything but a certainty. There are pros on this forum who've already expressed the intention of moving from IQ260 to an all SONY A7r setup. What was initially viewed as a 'toy' camera is suddenly serious competition - and I say that knowing full well all the drawbacks of the A7r.
Bottom line is that MFDB can't fight the tide of ever decreasing pricing coupled with increasing IQ indefinitely. The move to 5x4 and 10x8 doesn't surprise me - it's there that the quality differential still exists ( overlooking the 'snob' value of shooting with such a cam).
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Torger ( and Chris Livsey),
Thanks for your appraisal of the MFDb market - always interested to hear other views and perceptions of where we're heading. I agree that the immediate outlook is governed by the SONY 50mp CMOS sensor but suspect that by the end of this year we'll see what the Canon and expected SONY FF cams deliver in terms of IQ.
Less than a year ago I was certain that I'd be moving (back) to MF, now it's anything but a certainty. There are pros on this forum who've already expressed the intention of moving from IQ260 to an all SONY A7r setup. What was initially viewed as a 'toy' camera is suddenly serious competition - and I say that knowing full well all the drawbacks of the A7r.
Bottom line is that MFDB can't fight the tide of ever decreasing pricing coupled with increasing IQ indefinitely. The move to 5x4 and 10x8 doesn't surprise me - it's there that the quality differential still exists ( overlooking the 'snob' value of shooting with such a cam).
Agree... LV is most important for pros to maximise their work (especially with view or tech cameras), comparing resolution or AOV is not as important to pros as having the job done efficiently. If MFDBs are to survive, the key words aren't resolution or sharpness, it is rather LV quality and to do what a smaller sensor can't do with it... That said, I would never have invested on my two MFDBs if they didn't offer multishot "true colour" ability... To me, having better "quality" than my D800E for single shot, is both useless and needless.... It doesn't improve on the photograph a bit... If a FF mirrorless will ever appear on the market with "true colour ability (either multishot or other), I'll buy it on the spot, fit it on a Cambo Actus and get rid of all my MF gear.
I didn't take Brian's survey, it was a decision of me to ...help (!!!) him. I believe that the survey is wrong, it rather asks what current consumers prefer than asking what possible users miss, IMO, a new product should target what people miss... The answer is there if one looks at the makers and their products... P1/Leaf & Sony backs offer nothing but better image over a FF sensor, Hassy offers multishot & LV via the same Sony sensor but only if one gets "married" to them... and Sinarbacks are unable to work untethered... So I guess the answer is there, but since I feel that a starter company will have great difficulties to start with a multishot back, I can see no space left that wouldn't provide an only temporary market appeal if one combines the rest of the individual advantages into one...
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HelloXbox is theft something new about the new digital back??
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... but I'm thinking about those enthusiasts that shoot 4x5" view cameras for landscape photography. There seems to be a whole lot of them in the UK.
I asked a dealer in the UK which does view cameras and digital systems and my suspicion that enthusiast customer segment is growing was true there, an ever-increasing percentage of the customers are enthusiasts. I didn't ask if it meant that professionals are leaving or if the total market is growing. And yes economy was a strong factor among many customers, but not all. Some enthusiasts have the money to buy "the best", some may come looking for a digital tech cam system and end up using 4x5" film due to the high digital back cost.
Tech cams have movements and the large format style you can derive from that, that is what I would like to be the selling point and I think it is for a few. Unfortunately I see over and over again that the main selling point is not movements, it's resolving power and to be realistic that is what needs to be what the product provides. Equal(ish) resolving power plus movements probably won't sell enough.
Say a camera like Cambo Actus, plus live view digital back plus tech cam wides lenses without color cast issues could be a winner I'm sure, but sensor technology is not fully there yet. In Europe there's been some deals with CFV-50c + view camera + reasonable-wide package deals with lower price than seen before and now live view, if I was Brian I would try to look into how those are selling. CFV-50c on V-mount cameras I've heard is selling pretty well too, I have no idea which is the larger market. My guess is that on V-mount it's more about nostalgia than resolving power, and there the main CMOS win is that you can shoot hand-held in low light.
I'm one of those "enthusiasts" (in the U.S.) watching the latest developments in MFD with great interest. I shoot landscape B&W with a 4x5 camera on film, develop my own negatives, then do drum scans. My end product is high-quality fine art prints. I know that my cache of TMAX Readyloads will not last forever, so I am definitely interested in my future options.
Several posters in this thread have captured what is important for me as I look at the possibilities for moving to MFD: Live View, ability to use on tech camera with some movements, decent resolution (50 MP would be my starting point), flexibility in lens choice, and of course a reasonable price. The Actus tech cam with a Sony A7rII seems like it could be my answer in the near term, but I can't help but feel there might be some advantages with a MFD back if it had all the right features and decent price. For one thing, I like the 4x5 aspect MUCH more than 2:3 and the MFD backs come closer to that. But right now there aren't any backs out there in my price range, though I know CI is offering a nice package on the Actus DB camera with Credo 50MP back (though the back has the V mount, maybe that is why it is such a nice price). But still, $20K is just too much. For now, I'm waiting until we have some hard data on the Sony A7rII to see if I want to make a move in this direction.
Dave
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Though I know CI is offering a nice package on the Actus DB camera with Credo 50MP back (though the back has the V mount, maybe that is why it is such a nice price).
For clarity the [Credo 50 + Actus] promotion is available from any Team Phase One dealer.
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second try
is this project still alive and kicking?