Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: LesPalenik on April 10, 2015, 05:35:32 am
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LuLa will be starting a forum topic on iPhone and Mobile Photography.
It's a wise decision, and hopefully, we'll see there some sharp images.
And while you are at it, you may as well add a UAV / Aerial Photography forum category. That field is also exploding, and the new class of copters coupled with advances in ultralight cameras will create fascinating imagery.
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Just about everywhere online is covered with hipstermatic instagramed iphone images, I'm not sure we really need it here too.
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Mark, more the reason we do need it here. The forum is open for those that are interested. Based on the latest camera manufacture numbers we would be ignoring a huge part of the market that is showing giant growth. While I will always shoot with my other cameras I am amazed at how often I am using the iPhone. And, if I am going to use it I want to make the best of it.
Kevin Raber
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Julian Calverley published a book from his iPhone images: http://www.juliancalverley.com/books/iphoneonly/
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Arguably smaller formats are the correct direction for traditional landscape photograph (assuming you can get the level of detail you want).
Great DoF is easier, building a superb lens that covers a tiny sensor is trivial, and so on.
The only reason for large format is the level of detail, really.
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Mark, more the reason we do need it here. The forum is open for those that are interested. Based on the latest camera manufacture numbers we would be ignoring a huge part of the market that is showing giant growth. While I will always shoot with my other cameras I am amazed at how often I am using the iPhone. And, if I am going to use it I want to make the best of it.
Kevin Raber
I never really seen LL as being about covering every area of photography or appealing to the largest markets especially the hipstermatic iphone area which I would see as a better fit for deviantart. Clearly you do feel it somehow fits with the LL brand or the market size is too big to ignore for business reasons.
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I never really seen LL as being about covering every area of photography or appealing to the largest markets especially the hipstermatic iphone area which I would see as a better fit for deviantart. Clearly you do feel it somehow fits with the LL brand or the market size is too big to ignore for business reasons.
It's a major trend with young people. Read this article from the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3026064/Photographer-Kevin-Rus-train-hops-American-Southwest-iPhone.html) about a guy documenting the train hoppers in the southwest. I've met several fine art photographers doing amazing things with iPhone art including Dan Burkholder who often uses an iPhone to capture what he finally prints in platinum over gold leaf (http://www.danburkholder.com/Pages/misc_pages/Portfolios/Platinum_Over_Gold_Leaf.html).
If you think it's all about hipstermatic iphone area you need to get out more :~)
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Actually, I forgot Dan has a hole section on iPhone art (http://www.danburkholder.com/Pages/misc_pages/Portfolios/iPhone_Artistry.html). He also offers iPhone art workshops. Of course, he also uses other cameras too :~)
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Julian Calverley published a book from his iPhone images: http://www.juliancalverley.com/books/iphoneonly/
That the book is sold on being "shot with an iphone" to me rather seems to suggest why we get a lot of press about pros using them. That is that its not that the phone camera itself is actually the best tool for the job but rather than theres a certain appeal to work shot with the "tools of the people".
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I'm not as big a fan of smartphone photography as Kevin. I find the almost infinite DOF quite limiting, and also the phone-as-camera an unsatisfactory tool.
But to ignore phone photography is to ignore a major future trend. If we want to stay relevant to the variety of styles photography and tools that people are currently pursuing would be to do a disservice to readers.
I have now gone back to shooting film for the first time in about a dozen years, and processing my own B&W film. I'll be writing about it on these pages soon.
Will anyone care? Probably, some. A Few. But that's not the point. This site has never been about pandering to the masses. It's about what I found interesting in photography (and now Kevin as well).
There no commercial advantage for us to be covering either phones or B&W film or many other non-mainstream aspects of photography. For the profile of the readership that we have, these are peripheral interests. But we do it because we can and because we find all aspects of photography of interest, and think that many of our readers do as well, even if they are not practitioners themselves.
My video tutorial on how to process CMS 20 II in Adotech II developer will be along soon. Hope it doesn't deter you from visiting us here.
Michael
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I find the almost infinite DOF quite limiting, and also the phone-as-camera an unsatisfactory tool.
But what this new trend has already done is put the fun, with a big 'F' back into photography. It's not an either/or choice unless you want it to be. For serious photographers it can be a welcome limitation - 'gear heads' need not apply!
In apps, don't overlook a new release, for stills, named 'Enlight'. The latest release of Snapseed also adds to the post_p options. Filmic Pro likewise for motion. Imminent release of tools such as Beastgrip Pro (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/107650693/beastgrip-pro-the-worlds-best-camera-rig-for-smart) ..
(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/003/272/123/73296a95bad356df9336df18ac21ff59_original.jpg?v=1423707667&w=700&h=&fit=max&auto=format&q=92&s=c1d0e6f8fddf8c6d0ae37c41bd01b1bf)
just adds to the options available and if Bentley used it for one of their ads (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyYhM0XIIwU), it wasn't 'cos the Arri's and Reds are history. (*)
Novelty factor ? - sure, but not without some merit. At least it's stimulating the creative side and that has to be a positive.
Edit:
(*) BTS is at 3:25 on ...
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This is the best iPhone photography of the landscape genre being done in America. Interestingly, the photographer's own lifestyle is a macrocosm of the freedom from stuff that the phone represents vis-a-vis camera gear.
https://vimeo.com/56803464
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But what this new trend has already done is put the fun, with a big 'F' back into photography.
Haha, I was just about to say that I've just started doing instagram (and regular phone photography) and I'm finding it a lot of fun. It's so easy to pull your phone out and snap a pic. In general, I find the stuff I shoot with my phone is different to the stuff I shoot with my Fuji x100 or nikon dslr. I see different things with my phone.
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This is the best iPhone photography of the landscape genre being done in America. Interestingly, the photographer's own lifestyle is a macrocosm of the freedom from stuff that the phone represents vis-a-vis camera gear.
https://vimeo.com/56803464
Great stuff! Must admit, he seemed to be getting pretty good resolution in some of those images. Are they all iPhone shots?
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While it is interesting how different tools work out in the field all too often it seems synonymous with laziness or an excuse for mediocre or sloppy work. Somehow a picture is meant to be raised to a higher standard because it was ‘only’ shot on an iphone (or even these days, shot on film) which is why people seem compelled to mention what was used.
Trendy or not, I’d rather see results by people that work hard to produce high quality work not use a crippled tool for an easy life or worse, as a get out of jail card for substandard results.
Anyway, for the 'iphone art' crowd here is a great shot of the O2 in fog from an iphone: http://www.kantryla.net/blog
If you think it's all about hipstermatic iphone area you need to get out more :~)
My reference to that was more directed at the article posted here and if that was a harbinger of things to come
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The college where I work has a new student photography club, and the first event was along the lines of "how to do more wih Instagram". My first curmudgeonly thought was that this is frivolous, but then I decided that "camera phones plus software" is a major way that kids are getting enthusiastic about doing more with photography, and will lead some of them to explore more options -- maybe even "cameras that can use special lenses for doing stuff that even Instagram cannot". So I expect that playing with these popular technologies will revitalize the hobby.
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While it is interesting how different tools work out in the field all too often it seems synonymous with laziness or an excuse for mediocre or sloppy work. Somehow a picture is meant to be raised to a higher standard because it was ‘only’ shot on an iphone (or even these days, shot on film) which is why people seem compelled to mention what was used.
Trendy or not, I’d rather see results by people that work hard to produce high quality work not use a crippled tool for an easy life or worse, as a get out of jail card for substandard results.
To me, photography is about conveying something in an image to the viewers of that image. Phone photography clearly does convey something to some people. That makes it legit, in my book. The tools used to capture something are immaterial.
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If you're not doing wet plate then you are gratuitously sacrificing resolution out of pure laziness!
Color, you say? Color separations, I reply.
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:D
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I think what Mark was trying to say is, does Lula wish to continue to stand out as something special and cherished by its users, or is it happy to be swallowed up by the current trends sweeping across the internet?
Yes Jeff, I too have looked at Dan Burkholder’s work and it is truly outstanding, as I am sure some people will also think about Trey Ratcliff’s HDR work, but if Lula wants to continue to stand out as something different and above the instagram crowd, then doing exactly the same thing as the rest of the crowd, is probably not the way to achieve it.
Personally I am not against iPhone and iPad photography, or any other form of image capture, but I do also understand what Mark is trying to say and the old curmudgeon in me wants to agree with him.
I have thought for some time now, that the type of the imagery shown on the home page of this site, is also an advert to the type of photography one can expect to find within the site, which in turn will attract people who shoot that type of work to migrate towards this site and those that do not, to migrate towards other sites that do cater for what they like to shoot – fairly obvious really.
Lula is never going to be able to satisfy everybody all of the time, and so it’s up to you guys to choose who are the majority of people, that you do want to satisfy most of the time. ;)
Dave
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I think what Mark was trying to say is, does Lula wish to continue to stand out as something special and cherished by its users, or is it happy to be swallowed up by the current trend sweeping across the internet?
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Lula is never going to be able to satisfy everybody all of the time, and so it’s up to you guys to choose who are the majority of people, that you do want to satisfy most of the time.
And ...
since when does it need to be mutually exclusive ?
since when does a separate sub-forum contaminate the site any more than CSC, FF and large format sub-forums do?
The whole argument seems somewhat blinkered and unnecessarily elitist,
IMO.
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And ...
The whole argument seems somewhat blinkered and unnecessarily elitist,
IMO.
Only if you think that remaining different from the rest of the crowd is the same as being elitist.
Dave
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We cover all things photographic here at Luminous-Landscape. Just about everyone shooting with a camera has an iPhone and shoots with it. I run workshops all over the world and I see everyday photographers with big technical cameras and a Phase One taking the iPhone out and shooting with it. Quite frankly some of the work being done with the iphone is quite amazing. So, if you don't like iPhone photography then don't frequent this topic. If we publsih an article on iPhone Photography and you don't like it then don't read it. We are working hard to expand the coverage we give the craft of photography and we may venture where some may not think we should. Photography is our passion and we will explore and share what we feel is revelant and of interest.
I shared my story of what I was able to do with my iPhone and I was quite pleased. Another camera in my arsenal and the cool part is it is always with me. I am all about trying new things, challenging myself, getting out of the comfort zone and more than anything else having fun taking pictures.
Kevin Raber
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Only if you think that remaining different from the rest of the crowd is the same as being elitist.
Which I do, if the answer to the " does it need to be mutually exclusive ?" (which you conveniently ignored, yet imply) is 'YES".
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Which I do, if the answer to the " does it need to be mutually exclusive ?" (which you conveniently ignored, yet imply) is 'YES".
No I didn't ignore it, because I have never implied it. I was simply making an observation about the direction of travel, rather than suggesting we should confine ourselves to a single route - as you seem to be reading it.
We cover all things photographic here at Luminous-Landscape. Just about everyone shooting with a camera has an iPhone and shoots with it. I run workshops all over the world and I see everyday photographers with big technical cameras and a Phase One taking the iPhone out and shooting with it. Quite frankly some of the work being done with the iphone is quite amazing. So, if you don't like iPhone photography then don't frequent this topic. If we publsih an article on iPhone Photography and you don't like it then don't read it. We are working hard to expand the coverage we give the craft of photography and we may venture where some may not think we should. Photography is our passion and we will explore and share what we feel is revelant and of interest.
I shared my story of what I was able to do with my iPhone and I was quite pleased. Another camera in my arsenal and the cool part is it is always with me. I am all about trying new things, challenging myself, getting out of the comfort zone and more than anything else having fun taking pictures.
Kevin Raber
I totally agree with you Kevin and I am not arguing against that, I am simply stating that your clientele will reflect the direction that you choose to take them.
Dave
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I think what Mark was trying to say is, does Lula wish to continue to stand out as something special and cherished by its users, or is it happy to be swallowed up by the current trends sweeping across the internet?
Yes Jeff, I too have looked at Dan Burkholder’s work and it is truly outstanding, as I am sure some people will also think about Trey Ratcliff’s HDR work, but if Lula wants to continue to stand out as something different and above the instagram crowd, then doing exactly the same thing as the rest of the crowd, is probably not the way to achieve it.
Personally I am not against iPhone and iPad photography, or any other form of image capture, but I do also understand what Mark is trying to say and the old curmudgeon in me wants to agree with him.
I have thought for some time now, that the type of the imagery shown on the home page of this site, is also an advert to the type of photography one can expect to find within the site, which in turn will attract people who shoot that type of work to migrate towards this site and those that do not, to migrate towards other sites that do cater for what they like to shoot – fairly obvious really.
Lula is never going to be able to satisfy everybody all of the time, and so it’s up to you guys to choose who are the majority of people, that you do want to satisfy most of the time. ;)
Dave
Very well said.
Lets put this discussion in perspective by remembering that no one buys an iPhone because they are looking for a camera.
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It's the image that is important, not the 'thing' that made it! I was rather surprised by the high quality reproduction I saw on the back of 'The Week', full page 8x11 of the eiffel tower. It's not necessarily a stellar image but difficult to believe it was from an iPhone 6. This site is about photography, I don't see the need to be prejudiced by the object that made the photo.
Having a pretty decent quality camera that's always in my pocket is fantastic, an image shot by one is far better than an missed opportunity lost because my 5DMII isn't on my shoulder.
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Lets put this discussion in perspective by remembering that no one buys an iPhone because they are looking for a camera.
Let us indeed, remember.
Except that I did - and not one ... but two.
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More recently when I visit I often wonder how the content of this site all hangs together: who the audience is, what the vision for it is or what LL’s core identity is now. I’ve never seen it as jumping in on the latest trends or trying to cover a large gamut of photography just as highly technical in depth reviews, lighting, sports, weddings/event, fashion and many other areas have never really been covered and are well covered elsewhere.
Sorts of content where LL excels and previously the ‘core’ content:
- Hands on reviews by actual photographers who are knowledgeable and experienced and cover cameras 'in-use’ (ie. not trying for dpreview sorts of reviews)
- Technical overviews on advanced techniques like landscape astrophotography, detailed look at stitching etc.
- Educated thoughts/interviews on the direction of the industry and future of camera tech from people who actually have links with camera manufacturers
- Articles on all aspects of photographing in interesting places around the world
Content that makes me go !?:
- Occasional but very skant/lightweight forays into video which leave me wondering who they are written for
- Sporadic oddly written philosophical topics
- Phone photography with pseudo vintage filters not as a one off interest article but promises of covering this new segment in detail in the future
I will continue to visit here and will of course read what I find useful but I worry it is starting to become a bit like generic photography magazine trying to all segments of the market and doing none of them in any real depth or particularly well. At the very least if so many different areas are to be covered by different people I think the site needs to be structured in a way that properly supports this.
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IMO *anything* that takes a photo is worthy of consideration here and anywhere else claiming to be devoted to photography. Sitting on my desk right now is a new Fuji Instax 90 instant film camera. Just got it, plan to give it a workout this coming week. Should be fun!
Coverage of one new thing doesn't equate to neglect of other things. This ain't no Zero Sum Game.
-Dave-
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Well, I like to say thanks for including IPhone Photography.
I use it for some years now next to other techniques: Scanning film, a range of Nikons, some very new and one of the latest Fujis.
So what? IPhones (or Android Phones) are simply part of all the practical tools we are lucky enough to be able to use today.
Photography is about expression, capture the moment with whatever technology is right for the task.
And, contrary to some previous assumptions: I did indeed buy an I Phone because of the photo apps available.
Best
Angela
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Thank you for this link, it is the most beautiful work.
Best
Angela
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I'll not get intp a debte about deliberately going out on a photographic e cursion with on.y a phpne-camera, but i am enthusiastic about to ability to seize unexpected opportunities. I do not carry my "big camera" with me when I go to work on rainy days, so I am glad that I got to record this intriguing road-side site.
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Very well said.
Lets put this discussion in perspective by remembering that no one buys an iPhone because they are looking for a camera.
To be honest, last night I was thinking that the next phone I get I will focus on its camera specs. No doubt, I'm a minority, not least because I hate phones and only have a smart phone because it came as a deal with my internet package. Although, since using the smart features of it (most notably google maps and the internet) I am enjoying the benefits of it. The one benefit a phone has over a small compact camera is that it is a phone and you tend to carry it with you everywhere, even if there aren't any pictures to be taken. Honestly, I wouldn't want to carry a small compact around absolutely everywhere AND a phone as well. May as well combine the two as best you can and then you have a camera absolutely everywhere with you. And as I mentioned in regards to myself, I see different photo's with my phone. In fact, it's annoying me, as I get some decent shots with my phone, but they can't be blown up to any decent sizes. I'm going to start training myself to look for the same shots with my dslr so that I can take advantage of the better resolution and quality.
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Cell phone attributes
1. Very handy
2. For the very small sensor, the pictures are good
3. Hard to use. I have seen many cell phones with cracked displays from being dropped. Cell phone photography increases the chance of dropping a pricey phone.
Attached picture made while on an exercise walk.
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But to ignore phone photography is to ignore a major future trend. If we want to stay relevant to the variety of styles photography and tools that people are currently pursuing would be to do a disservice to readers.
Michael
I think that sums it up well. I don't dislike phone photos, but like Michael, kind of don't see the point unless you shoot something that the phone camera made better.
I thought that Apple Ridley Scott remote directed commercial was pretty cool until I saw the behind the scenes with chapman cranes and about a gazillion dollars worth of production values, then you realize, ok, I can make an I pad look good, but if the crane weighs 2500 lbs, why am I using an I pad in the first place?
But I still think a phone photo section is a good idea . . . then again maybe not because I don't do the instigram and I don't do the facebook. I do like tumbler but just for quick fun.
IMO
BC
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... like Michael, kind of don't see the point unless you shoot something that the phone camera made better.
Fair enough, and I see just a couple of main cases where that might happen:
- the phone-camera makes the photo better by making it exist, because it makes little sense to be carrying a bigger "dedicated" camera at the time.
- hand-held panoramas: in-camera processing technology makes the continuous sweep panorama mode of my iPhone work better than the successive frames panorama mode of my EM5, and being able to do that image processing on the fly as the sweep is being done seems to have inherent advantages over the "record now, fix later" approach. The key here is that some phones contain [or _are_] far more powerful computers than most cameras, so can do a few useful tricks with that.
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I don't dislike phone photos, but like Michael, kind of don't see the point unless you shoot something that the phone camera made better.
Images I shot with my iPhone when I didn’t have my DSLR are better than the image I didn’t get with that DSLR. ;)
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Photography has more meaning, and has more impact on the daily lives of more people than ever before....especially young people. Call them millennials, or whatever label suits you: Photography is how they connect with one another, and it means something very important to them. Maybe less as 'art' and more as a way to communicate with one another and a way to express themselves...both socially and artistically.
The phone (and the attendant apps and social photo sites) made this possible. Content, feeling, capturing the moment, telling a story are all, and adherence to rules and convention are nothing.
Are we going to argue about our own subjective perspectives on concepts like 'legitimacy', or are we going to try to really understand how and why photography has blossomed into more meaning for a greater proportion of the human population than ever before?
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Maybe less as 'art' and more as a way to communicate with one another and a way to express themselves...both socially and artistically.
I don't disagree, but to me photography (considering photography is my profession and a major part of my life) , to me photography is more than showing what I had for breakfast.
Once again I don't disagree with anyone on this except I think we're not talking the same language.
Comparing most of the instigram and the facebook snaps and saying it's photography is like sending out a tweet and calling it a book.
Yes personal photos are how we communicate, I guess always did, but looking at most facebook pages I get the same feeling when someone use to pull out their photo album of their wedding, or my grandad made us look at his slide collection.
I'll politely look, but I'd rather be doing something else.
Now in regards to having a camera in my pocket is better than no camera at all, sometimes that's true but in my case that would rarely rarely make any sense.
Today I called a friend. He said he can't talk but sent me a succession of twenty text messages. I finally just texted him and said I'm bored with typing on a phone.
Call me. it's more fun.
IMO
BC
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I don't disagree, but to me photography (considering photography is my profession and a major part of my life) , to me photography is more than showing what I had for breakfast.
Once again I don't disagree with anyone on this except I think we're not talking the same language.
Comparing most of the instigram and the facebook snaps and saying it's photography is like sending out a tweet and calling it a book.
Yes personal photos are how we communicate, I guess always did, but looking at most facebook pages I get the same feeling when someone use to pull out their photo album of their wedding, or my grandad made us look at his slide collection.
I'll politely look, but I'd rather be doing something else.
Now in regards to having a camera in my pocket is better than no camera at all, sometimes that's true but in my case that would rarely rarely make any sense.
Today I called a friend. He said he can't talk but sent me a succession of twenty text messages. I finally just texted him and said I'm bored with typing on a phone.
Call me. it's more fun.
IMO
BC
Well, given your life, livelihood (and prodigious talent) I completely understand your perspective. I'll just add that now that my youngest is 20 (not 16) he's no longer snapping his breakfast, but has graduated to more significant content, and has a Sony NEX 5. The phone remains his primary tool, and he's learning rapidly.
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We cover all things photographic here at Luminous-Landscape. Just about everyone shooting with a camera has an iPhone and shoots with it. I run workshops all over the world and I see everyday photographers with big technical cameras and a Phase One taking the iPhone out and shooting with it. Quite frankly some of the work being done with the iphone is quite amazing. So, if you don't like iPhone photography then don't frequent this topic. If we publsih an article on iPhone Photography and you don't like it then don't read it. We are working hard to expand the coverage we give the craft of photography and we may venture where some may not think we should. Photography is our passion and we will explore and share what we feel is revelant and of interest.
I shared my story of what I was able to do with my iPhone and I was quite pleased. Another camera in my arsenal and the cool part is it is always with me. I am all about trying new things, challenging myself, getting out of the comfort zone and more than anything else having fun taking pictures.
Kevin Raber
I'm in favor of the iPhone forum. You wanna do it, it's fine with me. I personally only use my iPhone for taking notes, but, to each his/her own.
However:
You really haven't covered everything photographic in the past. If you had, you might have called it Luminous Everythingscape. Landscapes (and related forms) tend to emphasize certain photographic characteristics not found in iPhones, such as the highest possible resolution and detail, the ability to print large for close-up examination, etc. (Don't tell me about iPhone billboards. Ever looked at one from two feet?)
Some of the work done with iPhones certainly is amazing, and most often, it would be even more amazing if it were shot with a really good camera. The most amazing iPhone shots you see are usually news or event shots, where the iPhone was the the only camera, and therefore the best camera, there. It's like the Rodney King video, or the video of the Boston Marathon bombing. The video in both cases was crappy, but was essential as the best available film witnesses to important events.
I think one of the earlier posters here (MarkL?) was trying to make the point that when a website's mission becomes too diffuse, then the coverage (by a limited number of people) tends to become thinner, and the most dedicated (serious, technical) readers might tend to drift away. I'm more than happy to read Kevin Raber on MF photography, because he seems to know the subject inside out, but does he really know iPhone photography inside out? Or is this just a fad he picked up? If he has to write on iPhones, will he dedicate as much time and effort to the MF stuff that he does really well, and that many people here are interested in?
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Comparing most of the instigram and the facebook snaps and saying it's photography is like sending out a tweet and calling it a book.
Equating smartphone photography to instagram and facebook snaps is akin to relating a fine pasta with the Heinz canned variety. One does not beget the other. If you want or need to live in the present - tweet , if you want to leave something for posterity - write a book.
Remember the Polaroid SX-70 (http://www.samhaskinsblog.com/?tag=sx-70) ?
(http://www.samhaskinsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/polaroid-project-sam-haskins.jpg)
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Not surprisingly, there is polarization of opinions here about this subject. I am not particularly interested in photography made with mobile phones, but I can understand that a lot of people use their phone to take photos, and actually get interesting results.
I have been following this website for many years, and never saw a forum dedicated to the equivalent of the mobile phone photography then: the compact camera. Millions of people 10 years ago used compact cameras, and Lula never had a forum about those, why? Millions of people use their mobile phones (which are indeed compact cameras) to take photos, it is a growing trend, and now there will be a forum about that.
The difference is the Apps?
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The difference is the Apps?
Not necessarily.
Today, you can adjust WB, ISO (gain), shutter speed, focus. The only control item missing is aperture – which is hardly surprising as its a fixed aperture cam. You can't save files in RAW (thank the manufacturers for that - it's part of their planned obsolescence program) but you can save uncompressed TIFF's which can then be post_p'd in Lightroom , Photoshop etc …
It is just another cam, not as good as a DSLR but then, often, a DSLR isn't a match for a PhaseOne IQxxx.
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I just researched this, and there's a couple offering raw (Nexus), and hopefully more in the future (now that the latest Android OS can access them if the manufacturers make them available via firmware).
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Not necessarily.
Today, you can adjust WB, ISO (gain), shutter speed, focus. The only control item missing is aperture – which is hardly surprising as its a fixed aperture cam. You can't save files in RAW (thank the manufacturers for that - it's part of their planned obsolescence program) but you can save uncompressed TIFF's which can then be post_p'd in Lightroom , Photoshop etc …
It is just another cam, not as good as a DSLR but then, often, a DSLR isn't a match for a PhaseOne IQxxx.
My Lumia 930 saves RAW, I am sure others too.
What I was trying to say is, compact cameras even today, make for much better always with you, portable image devices, compared to phones. What happened is that new people (and now older ones too) adopted easily the mobile phones as their cameras, due to the presence of two things: connectivity and apps.
If, in the past, camera makers had introduced these things in their compact cameras, maybe today things would be different? Now it's too late.
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I am all for the new forum, I don't do a lot of phone photography but like some people here I think it is a creative outlet and a supplemental one. I have seen some very creative works done on a smart phone. Luckily we have a diverse talent and interest here and we can pick and choose what we read and where we decide to participate. Looking forward to seeing what people here can do with the phones, and I am experimenting more and more with the phone but it will not be my main camera. It will be what I have with me, when I don't carry my camera.
Alan
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We had some incredible weather here this winter. One day after completing a shoot we stopped by a local coffee shop. Everybody in there was sharing their day on their phones. There was no conversation - no sharing about which roads were still unplowed - not even sharing their photos with table mates. We tried to strike up a conversation but people would smile politely and go back to typing. Every head was bent towards their screen. I guess we could have texted them.
I hate that.
I don't mind a phone forum but I do mind the phones.
Is it similar to a time when many people could be seen in public spaces with a newspaper in front of their faces? Maybe, but it seems worse now with nearly everyone staring at the phone. :(
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I do think that it all goes together - the thread about photoshop ruining landscape photography and the idea of using phones as cameras. It's all about getting immediate gratification.
Polaroid.
It's no longer about how your work might really move others and all about getting "likes" which makes you feel good for about 3 seconds.
I'd guess that the kind-of people who would have been concerned about how their work might really move others still will be; and the others never would have been.
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Too clever for me.
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I don't have a Facebook page, I don't do Twitter, or Instagram, or any other social media like those. However, my business depends on my phone. I am dependent on my email, texts and calendar. A few years ago I was at a big national trade show, having dinner with the man who owns the stock agency that represents some of my work. There were several other of the agency's photographers at dinner as well. Everyone was sharing galleries on their iPhones. I am a member of a handful of professional associations and get email press releases from corporate partners who have access to our association's email list. I probably throw away a hundred emails a day. But I also get requests for proposals and critical updates on current projects.
I was on a shoot for a client last September and was flying into Orlando just as the sun was setting. It was a very beautiful sunset from our approach altitude with a chain of lakes in the foreground. My cameras were in a backpack in the overhead bin across the isle. I was in the window seat. There was no practical way of getting the big camera. I shot several carefully framed images of the sunset and foreground that I would have missed completely without my iPhone. When I opened them in Photoshop, I was really amazed at the quality of the images.
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We had some incredible weather here this winter. One day after completing a shoot we stopped by a local coffee shop. Everybody in there was sharing their day on their phones. There was no conversation - no sharing about which roads were still unplowed - not even sharing their photos with table mates. We tried to strike up a conversation but people would smile politely and go back to typing. Every head was bent towards their screen. I guess we could have texted them.
I hate that.
I don't mind a phone forum but I do mind the phones.
I realize that was a totally off-topic rant. :-)
I do think that it all goes together - the thread about photoshop ruining landscape photography and the idea of using phones as cameras. It's all about getting immediate gratification. It's no longer about how your work might really move others and all about getting "likes" which makes you feel good for about 3 seconds.
You know what Sharon, that may not be off topic at all, because it might just be a dislike of what mobiles have done to undermine our once verbally interactive society (we used to talk to each other in other words), into a texting society, which is something that is a lot more insular, annoying and even down right rude at times. So it could be the baggage they bring with them that is the problem, if indeed there is a problem.
I was in New York a few years ago, crossing the street and this tall power dressed lady was striding purposefully towards me in the opposite direction, and as she drew close to me, she said in a loud American drawl, "Hi, How ya dooin?" I stopped and said in my best surprised squeaky English voice, uh oh, well I suppose I am doing fine thank you.. She looked at me as though I was some kind of a rapist or something, because little did I know, she was using one of those ear phones and talking/shouting to a client..!
Dave
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Funny. Several years ago, well before hands-free devices, I saw a guy walking along having a conversation with an imaginary person. He would stop and struggle with the imaginary person and then he (they?) would continue along. He was obviously hallucinating. You can't make that assumption now.
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To me the downside of the phones is the texting, I have a long commute to work and I constantly see dozens of younger drivers texting while driving, and this is every day. You can always tell in stop and go traffic, they are the ones that just sit there for short time before moving forward, and then constantly bob their head up and down while trying to look at the screen.
So with anything good, like the instant camera, the bad can also follow. Like anything it is how the tool is used that determines whether or not it is a bane or benefit.
Alan
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I'm sitting a waiting room, I'm the only one here, waiting for an appointment. I'm sure glad I've got my iPhone.
Sharon, I think you must have looked at Soutwest Kansas Dawn on my website. I just happened to check activity and saw a view from Nantucket.
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Is it similar to a time when many people could be seen in public spaces with a newspaper in front of their faces? Maybe, but it seems worse now with nearly everyone staring at the phone. :(
Yep, how the times have changed. Oh wait... ;)
(http://also.kottke.org/misc/images/kubrick-subway-newspapers.jpg)
By Stanley Kubrick, New York. 1950's or thereabouts.
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I was in New York a few years ago, crossing the street and this tall power dressed lady was striding purposefully towards me in the opposite direction, and as she drew close to me, she said in a loud American drawl, "Hi, How ya dooin?" I stopped and said in my best surprised squeaky English voice, uh oh, well I suppose I am doing fine thank you.. She looked at me as though I was some kind of a rapist or something, because little did I know, she was using one of those ear phones and talking/shouting to a client..!
Dave
Haha! :) I was just in India and the local touts (and just some friendly locals as well) like to shout out "Hello!" as you walk past their vicinity. And you get used to just responding kind of automatically to them (either positively or negatively, depending on your mood that day). But there's a new feature of Indian society that wasn't there last time I visited 20 years ago - the mobile phone. And Indian's ALL answer their mobile phone now with a shouted "Hello!". The shouting is kind of funny, as I don't think a lot of them have quite grasped how phones work. Some of them literally think they need to send their voice over the kilometres... :). But you feel like a right fool when you turn and shout back "How are you, my friend!?" to a shouted "Hello!" into a phone from across the street... :D
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Thank you for the compliment, Sharon. I have started a Photoshelter site; http://davidjdrewphotog.photoshelter.com/#!/index
I have more commercial images there. I still am not able to show a lot of my aviation images since they are mostly covered by non-disclosure agreements. My iPhone aerial sunset shot is on this site. It is in the Water gallery. The domain name is the one photo shelter assigned to me. I will eventually use another domain name I have to point it.
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Yep, how the times have changed. Oh wait... ;)
(http://also.kottke.org/misc/images/kubrick-subway-newspapers.jpg)
By Stanley Kubrick, New York. 1950's or thereabouts.
;)
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Why are those men all seated when there are women standing? Isn't there a gentleman in the bunch?
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I'm more than happy to read Kevin Raber on MF photography, because he seems to know the subject inside out, but does he really know iPhone photography inside out? Or is this just a fad he picked up? If he has to write on iPhones, will he dedicate as much time and effort to the MF stuff that he does really well, and that many people here are interested in?
I suspect you don't know Kevin personally? I do...Kevin knows MF, DSLR, mirrorless and iPhone about equally...Kevin is all about capturing IMAGES...he really cares less about the technology than the image. Some of Kev's best images have come smaller format/iPhone cameras.
I'm really a bit shocked by the arrogance exhibited by some in this thread...image making is about image making. Who really cares about the equipment?
Those people who are insecure about their process...I went to RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology). As a school they were very, VERY slow to adopt digital photography. Why?
Their tenured professors were scared to death by new technology. And I mean SCARED TO DEATH! When faced with new technology, all their private, personal processes went out the window...kinda like old'sters facing an iPhone and Hipstamatic approach to image making.
Chill out old'sters...the old style landscape photography will continue for a while. It's the younger crowd that is migrating to iPhones & social media for consumption of images. You see the dichotomy between Kev & Michael...Kev is into it (he wrote the article) and Mike is less enthused...it represents the LuLa crowd pretty well.
Note, I still get a kick out of giving Kevin crap for shooting images with his iPhone instead of a "real camera" when out shooting with him. But hey, that's just me!
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The whole thread reminds me of similar discussions around the internet post-2000 about the introduction of these new-fangled digital cameras and how they'd never achieve the quality of a good film camera, they weren't photographs they were just numbers, etc.
Anthony
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Photography isn't solely about "work"...
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I am thrilled with the iphone6+ and amazed at the quality. But not for serious landscape work.
Which brings us back full circle to ' it doesn't need to be mutually exclusive '.
Or, to put it another way, would you use a sushi knife to carve roast beef ?
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Which brings us back full circle to ' it doesn't need to be mutually exclusive '.
Or, to put it another way, would you use a sushi knife to carve roast beef ?
Agreed. Or "would you pull out and set up the food processor to squeeze the juice of one lemon, and have to disassemble and wash it up afterwards?" For some "personal documentation and unexpected opportunity photography", it makes sense to use the smallest, quickest, lightest tool -- maybe even when you also have a real(TM) camera in your back pack. And so it makes sense for us to exchange tips and ideas on how best to use this new option -- and on when not to fall into that temptation!
I see little reason to fear that adding one new sub-forum to the thirty-three others at LuLa will sap the energy from all those others, and lead many of us into the temptation of using our phones when other gear is more appropriate.
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Too late... I just threw my DSLR in the bin.
:P
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You won't need a DSLR soon, allegedly..
http://petapixel.com/2015/04/14/apple-acquires-linx-a-camera-maker-that-promises-dslr-performance-in-phones/
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You won't need a DSLR soon, allegedly..
http://petapixel.com/2015/04/14/apple-acquires-linx-a-camera-maker-that-promises-dslr-performance-in-phones/
That sounds like wild exaggeration, but if the rumors are right about zoom lenses coming to phone-cameras, that will take another huge bite out of the low-end compact camera market, squeezing it ever more towards super-zooms and big sensor models (1" and up?).
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I'm really a bit shocked by the arrogance exhibited by some in this thread...image making is about image making. Who really cares about the equipment?
Oh, bullshit, Jeff. Are you really trying to sell the idea that you don't care about equipment? Or that Kevin doesn't? Then why did I read those serious in-depth Schewe books about how to squeeze the last drop of quality out of a printer? I might be mis-remembering, but didn't you say in one book or another that you have four or five printers in house? Didn't Kevin used to post fairly frequently about the superiority of the most expensive possible MF cameras? What were all those Michael/Schewe videos about?
Further, I don't think there was a lot of arrogance here...mostly just a equation of why the forum is going in this particular direction when, as somebody noted, there was never a P&S forum back when millions of people were shooting P&S digitals. And I think some of the concerns are valid. And, as a lot of people noted, including me, most of us don't care what the forum does. More a matter of bemusement than opposition.
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Oh, bullshit, Jeff. Are you really trying to sell the idea that you don't care about equipment? Or that Kevin doesn't?
Actually, I care far less about the cameras and printers (yes I have several) than I do caring about the image and the print. I do have a lot of cameras...both Canon, Sony, Panasonic and now Nikon. But I also shoot a lot with my iPhone too. My last two trips to Italy, I only took my Sony RX100 (the original one) instead of any of my bigger cameras. I got a lot of really nice shots with the little point and shoot I could carry in a shirt pocket. Oh, I also took my iPhone and got a bunch of really nice panos with it (something the iPhone 6 is really good at). I've made prints from both cameras...BTW, if you are interested in why, it's because I'm married (42 years) and my wife appreciated that I didn't take a lot of cameras & lenses :~)
Look, I'm an image maker...I enjoy making images regardless of the camera. I'm positive that Kev feels the same. But I really don't obsess over over cameras and lenses ya know? They're just tools to make an image. So I shoot with anything I have handy :~)
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People keep mentioning “who cares about the equipment” in this thread but then argue in favor of phones being specifically covered and having a separate forum section for them. If it didn’t matter to them, why mention pictures where shot on a phone in the first place?
The entire premise of this site's existance was discussion of equipment.
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People keep mentioning “who cares about the equipment” in this thread but then argue in favor of phones being specifically covered and having a separate forum section for them. If it didn’t matter to them, why mention pictures where shot on a phone in the first place?
The entire premise of this site's existance was discussion of equipment.
This sites existence was never the topic of "discussion of equipment". It has always been about everything photographic. The sharing of knowledge. We have recently added a tag line to our logo "The Photographers Knowledge Resource". That clearly defines what we want to accomplish here.
This new topic is here for those that want it. Like other topics it is here to help people that want to learn something in regards to the topic.
Yesterday morning I came down to meet Michael and Chris for breakfast. We were at a lodge in the Columbia River Gorge. The sun was just coming over the mountains with low hanging clouds and my cameras were in the room. No problem I stepped outside used my iPhone and took a picture using Pro HDR X and ended up with a lovely image. Maybe I'll share it maybe I won't. It was all about taking the picture though. I shared the image at breakfast and Michael and a friend with us downloaded the app and took similar images on their iPhones.
During breakfast we discussed the image, how to share images and printing of images and a dozen other things photographic because that is what we do.
Kevin Raber
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We are getting into the familiar false dichotomy "equipment matters/does not matter". It seem obvious that differences in equipment can make big differences in the results in some cases, such as landscape scenes with high subject brightness range and lots of interesting details, or animals that must be photographed from a distance and at high shutter speeds; no pocketable camera will ever do as well with those scenes as a suitable "big camera". But every camera/lens combination has a "gamut"; a range of situations and subject matter where its results are fine, to the point that a bigger sensor or lens, or faster AF, or whatever, will not make a significant difference to the appearance of the final displayed image (except to pixel peepers and print sniffers.)
Clearly, phone-cameras have a far smaller photographic gamut than any modern ILC system, but plenty of everyday subjects fall within that gamut, and then the omnipresent phone-camera (or pocketable compact) can be a good choice of gear.
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Well said Kevin. It is all about the image. :) If you really want to piss off everyone, put a "like" button for posts..... ;D That should create many pages of nattering on the forum.
Alan
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We are getting into the familiar false dichotomy "equipment matters/does not matter".
I don’t believe anyone here feels that is true. But the equipment isn’t necessary to know about from the viewers perspective, it’s the qualities of the image.
If you see a lovely image, that’s what’s critical, not whether it was shot on a $40K system or an iPhone.
IF all that mattered was the equipment, all the amazing images that were captured over the life of photography’s history could be dismissed because today, we have ‘better’ equipment.
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I used to use my iPhone camera until I got an RX100.
Seriously, is it so much work to carry around an RX100 in your pocket?
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Create a place where readers could upload photos, and the rest of us could try to guess what camera was used.
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IF all that mattered was the equipment, all the amazing images that were captured over the life of photography’s history could be dismissed because today, we have ‘better’ equipment.
Not long ago I read an interview with Art Wolfe about his recent "retrospective" photo book. It turns out he revisited a number of places and even groups of people he'd photographed years & decades ago, making new photos with his current gear because he was unhappy with the technical quality of the older photos. I'm personally unsure what to make of this. There's a whiff of postcard photography about it—find relatively static & eye-pleasing locales, take eye-pleasing pics—that suggests a rather mechanical, non-spontaneous approach. OTOH…much of the pic-taking I do personally has less to do with photos per se than about being somewhere with the heightened awareness that seeing through a viewfinder can bring on. I often take pics of places & people & things I've photographed before. My 2014 Grand Canyon photos are certainly of higher technical quality than those from 1994. So maybe I can also understand why Wolfe took the approach he did. Yet the gorgeous stormy sunsets of November 1994 happened only then. That I captured them on 35mm Provia 100, with its particular color palette and ~5 stops of dynamic range, rather than the far more capable Olympus E-M1 I used last year…that's just the way it is. And those Provia pics are the ones I'd put in a book, technical superiority be damned.
-Dave-
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We are getting into the familiar false dichotomy "equipment matters/does not matter".
I don’t believe anyone here feels that is true.
Of course nobody believes that the equipment is irrelevant, or the opposite extreme that using the best possible gear is critical to all "serious" photography, but this common sense sometimes gets lost in forum debates, where some of the rhetoric degenerates into those simplistic extremes; one side with versions of the populist cliché that "it's the photographer that matters, not the gear", perhaps in over-reaction to perceived elitism like "cameras below some threshold are mere toys, unworthy of any serious photographer" on the other side.
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The common logical problem that occurs is conflating these two statements:
"It is possible to take excellent photographs with a cell phone"
and
"Every excellent photograph can be made with a cell phone"
People tend to unconsciously assume a universal quantifier is present when in fact only an existential one it. Or people simply can't be bothered to distinguish between the two, overwhelmed by the urge to do battle.
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If equipment had ever been an issue on this forum, then for those of us who post images here, we would feel compelled to list in detail what equipment was used for every image we post, which we don’t do and never have done, even though it is the norm on most other photography forums, but not this one, so equipment or equipment snobbery is simply not the issue here.
So it must be something else and I think it must boil down to a question of how serious the photographer is about what they create and the effort and skill they are willing to put into creating it and I just don’t see it with iPhone photography, when done with the ubiquitous one click instagram(esque) type processing so prevalent today. I am not saying it can’t be a good done like this, but what I am saying is that it can never be individually and creatively good, done like this.
As Jeff pointed out by referencing some of Dan Burkholder’s work produced through an iPhone, it is amazing, but it has also been achieved through a huge amount of effort for each and every piece he creates. Thumbing an app to make every shot into some sort of instantaneous production line ‘art’, just isn’t.
It’s like trying to compare gourmet restaurant food to a TV dinner IMO.
So yes great work really can be done with iPhone, but the keyword here I think is ‘work’ which cannot be achieved to any meaningful level using shortcuts and by effortlessly pushing a Jpg through a one click app, that 100 million other people are also doing with their Jpg’s at the same time and using the exact same app, there just isn’t enough personal creativity in it for me.
Dave
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So yes great work really can be done with iPhone, but the keyword here I think is ‘work’ which cannot be achieved to any meaningful level using shortcuts and by effortlessly pushing a Jpg through a one click app, that 100 million other people are also doing with their Jpg’s at the same time and using the exact same app, there just isn’t enough personal creativity in it for me.
I agree...but the other aspect is the context in which you want to use the image. If you need a 5x6 image reproduced in a book, which would be the best choice to use, an iPhone 5 or a P1 IQ180...could you tell the differences between those cameras at that size? Well, if it were well shot and lit, I suspect not. To prove that for my Digital Neg book I did just that.
The top image was shot with an iPhone 5 in studio lighting. The next image with an IQ 180. You can't tell the difference until you look at the detail shots zoomed in. The 3rd image is clearly inferior to the 4th image.
I could make a print from both small and they would both look good...but if I wanted a 17x22 print, the IQ180 would be vastly better without the jpeg artifacts and clear resolution.
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I used to use my iPhone camera until I got an RX100.
Seriously, is it so much work to carry around an RX100 in your pocket?
Everywhere you go? With a phone as well? Yes.
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If equipment had ever been an issue on this forum, then for those of us who post images here, we would feel compelled to list in detail what equipment was used for every image we post, which we don’t do and never have done, even though it is the norm on most other photography forums, but not this one, so equipment or equipment snobbery is simply not the issue here.
So it must be something else and I think it must boil down to a question of how serious the photographer is about what they create and the effort and skill they are willing to put into creating it and I just don’t see it with iPhone photography, when done with the ubiquitous one click instagram(esque) type processing so prevalent today. I am not saying it can’t be a good done like this, but what I am saying is that it can never be individually and creatively good, done like this.
As Jeff pointed out by referencing some of Dan Burkholder’s work produced through an iPhone, it is amazing, but it has also been achieved through a huge amount of effort for each and every piece he creates. Thumbing an app to make every shot into some sort of instantaneous production line ‘art’, just isn’t.
It’s like trying to compare gourmet restaurant food to a TV dinner IMO.
So yes great work really can be done with iPhone, but the keyword here I think is ‘work’ which cannot be achieved to any meaningful level using shortcuts and by effortlessly pushing a Jpg through a one click app, that 100 million other people are also doing with their Jpg’s at the same time and using the exact same app, there just isn’t enough personal creativity in it for me.
Dave
The assumption implicit here is that a lot of the 'superficially nicer' phone shots must have been done with a one click app. How do you know this is true? As I mentioned earlier, I'm just starting to get into phone photography and most of my newer images would appear just the same as your assumption - that is, they could look like they were done with one click filter. But most of my newer ones I have used a filter and then gone into the individual settings: shadows, exposure, contrast, saturation, brightness, color balance etc to give the image the look I want. Sure, it's still easier than making masks in photoshop or drawing curves, but so is Lightroom. So is Nik. So are a lot of other serious software products we use to produce our DSLR images now.
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Should we give this thread a pause or rest?
There are now the grand total of 2 posts on the "iphone and mobile photography" forum. Perhaps this discussion can continue there, in order to boost that new forum?
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Everywhere you go?
Everywhere out of my house, yes.
I'm a photographer, I capture unique moments in time with photographic equipment for the purpose of creating art.
If I don't have the capture device on me, I miss many, many opportunities.
An RX100 meets my requirements for image capture much better than my iPhone 5/6+.
Of course, a dSLR, CSC etc can do even better, particularly for UWA or long lens needs, but it's far too big to carry everywhere. The RX100 is small enough to fit in a pocket of anything I wear. I don't think carrying an RX100 with me everywhere is too much of a burden.
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Should we give this thread a pause or rest?
There are now the grand total of 2 posts on the "iphone and mobile photography" forum. Perhaps this discussion can continue there, in order to boost that new forum?
Yes why not, but before we all go our merry ways, I thought I would leave the thread with a couple of interesting links for you to peruse.
Here is a link to Dan Burkholder (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax8NJ6Boa6E) discussing his work over the many years, right back to his early crayon drawings as a child, to the modern day and how he thinks that everything he does links together, through to showcasing some of his better known work and discussing the skill and effort he puts into each piece of work he makes, no matter what medium he chooses to use, including iPhones - a highly recommended and entertaining hour for you to watch.
The second link found here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3033523/Influential-Instagrammers-capture-Isle-Skye-never-seen-before.html), is to a recent newspaper report of work, that has been produced by the top eight most influential Instagrammers on the internet. The images were shot in Scotland and also some on Skye, although the report has half the locations and distances between them wrong, but hey, that's newspaper reporters for you ;D
Dave