Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: Paul2660 on March 27, 2015, 04:46:54 pm

Title: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Paul2660 on March 27, 2015, 04:46:54 pm
Ever since I watched this video by Wayne Fox on the LR Auto mask, I have to say so far I have not been so impressed with a selection tool ever.  The video is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LypUUCT7XFQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LypUUCT7XFQ)

I have to say, I missed auto mask all together when 5.7 came out and only just started using it about 2 months ago, but it's just an excellent tool.  I have never used a selection tool in CC or prior versions of Photoshop that can come close to the accuracy you can get with Auto mask in LR.  I would love to see such a tool implemented in CC, for a copy and paste, it would be a dream. 

This tool can mask a blue sky against a green line of tree limbs better than anything I have used before, dead on, each time and once you use it, you will find yourself using it more and more.  It also will copy and paste easily to a similar image and adjust itself to the new image. 

I am sure the experts have long ago discovered this, but I wanted to pass this video on to the rest and say Kudos to Adobe for this great tool, Please add it to CC, in a future release.   

Paul
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Rory on March 27, 2015, 07:31:37 pm
Wayne made a great video to illustrate a neat way to use the adjustment brush.  However, I have to challenge your assertion that "This tool can mask a blue sky against a green line of tree limbs better than anything I have used before, dead on, each time".  For me, the adjustment brush has always produced ugly halos when it encounters high contrast boundaries like the sky/trees scenario you describe.  You can mitigate this a little bit by masking without the automask, making sure to go over the boundaries and then use the negative brush with automask to get rid of the mask in the overlap areas. 

Can you show us an example, at 100%, where you have been successful?
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: fdisilvestro on March 27, 2015, 11:06:40 pm
Hi,

Paul, thanks for the link, that technique is great!

Rory, In my experience the issues with the masks with complex structures such as foliage are due to CA and Purple fringing, which makes the edges fuzzy, creating a problem for the mask.

Here is the technique that I use:

I will mask the sky in the following picture:

(http://www.frankdisilvestro.com.au/img/s6/v138/p1080485397-4.jpg)

To create the mask, I will perform some edits that will be reversed at the end, so it is good to take note of white balance and contrast

Step 1: Increase contrast to 100%

Step 2: Change to Black and White

Here a 100% crop of the upper right part after those steps

(http://www.frankdisilvestro.com.au/img/s9/v93/p1080488120-4.jpg)

Play with the B/W controls until you get the accentuated borders. In this specific case I reduced the Blue control to -67 obtaining the following image:

(http://www.frankdisilvestro.com.au/img/s6/v150/p1080488152-4.jpg)

Now change the White Balance until you get sharp edges (it works as if it was eliminating the CA). In this case I had to increase the Color temperature up to 11560, obtaining the following result

(http://www.frankdisilvestro.com.au/img/s6/v142/p1080488159-4.jpg)

Now go back to colour and apply the technique described in Wayne's video, and you  start getting the mask as shown in the next image

(http://www.frankdisilvestro.com.au/img/s3/v7/p1080488163-4.jpg)

However, if we apply an extreme edit, we can see that there are like "dust specs" around the image as shown here:

(http://www.frankdisilvestro.com.au/img/s7/v169/p1080488208-4.jpg)

Well, just click a few more times in areas similar to original and the mask keeps getting better

(http://www.frankdisilvestro.com.au/img/s9/v93/p1080488215-4.jpg)

Now you can continue building the mask. In complex images may be necessary to repeat the steps of going back to B/W and adjust the color temperature.

When the mask is ready, reverse the original image white balance and contrast and apply the desired adjustments to the brushed area. In this case I desaturated and lightened the sky

(http://www.frankdisilvestro.com.au/img/s6/v139/p1080488281-4.jpg)

Here a 100% crop with the adjusted sky

(http://www.frankdisilvestro.com.au/img/s5/v122/p1080488288-4.jpg)

And here a 100% crop of the original image in the same area (brush off)

(http://www.frankdisilvestro.com.au/img/s12/v185/p1080488317-4.jpg)
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Paul2660 on March 27, 2015, 11:11:00 pm
Rory, 

I will try to get to an example tomorrow, but Francisco's is pretty close.  The trick, is keeping the feather at 0 and size at 100%, then you can just keep clicking in a spot until it hits.  With sky and trees, it's the best I have seen, it just won't miss.  It will take a bit of testing around to get it but I find to get the best demarcation, you have to zoom to 100% and then click around the areas that are still showing the effect of the sky. 

It's a very accurate tool, when used the way Wayne describes it.  I would have never thought of trying this way.

Paul
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Schewe on March 27, 2015, 11:47:02 pm
Ever since I watched this video by Wayne Fox on the LR Auto mask, I have to say so far I have not been so impressed with a selection tool ever.


The key to understanding how to use Auto Mask is knowing how the tool actually works...and while Wayne's video really helps (not sure he didn't learn some of that stuff from me–just kidding Wayne) to understand how the Auto Mask works it's really useful to know it works based on the Background Erasure from Photoshop (Mark Hamburg created both).

I'm not sure what the range or fuzzieness that Auto Mask uses when deciding in/out masking (maybe I should ask Mark) but Wayne is correct that the mask is based upon what is under the cursor and using a larger brush and simply single clicking is a technique I use a lot.

But here's a mind screwing thought...rather than using Auto Mask for positive masking (the way Wayne is using it) try to wrap you head around an alternative...painting in a mask without Auto Mask clicked then use the Erasure tool with Auto Mask selected as an option. In this approach you are free-handing the areas of adjustment then subtracting the masked areas using the erase brush.

It take some time to understand and become practiced doing this, but the key to this technique is to be loose with the addition of the mask and select with the subtraction of the mask.

I do both about equally...some of it depends on the range of the adjustments (Auto isn't great for really strong movements) and some of it depends on how easily it is to isolate the areas of adjustment.

However, I will agree that Auto Mask is a really powerful tool if you know how to use it. Good vid tut Wayne!
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Rory on March 27, 2015, 11:47:25 pm
Rory, 

I will try to get to an example tomorrow, but Francisco's is pretty close.  The trick, is keeping the feather at 0 and size at 100%, then you can just keep clicking in a spot until it hits.  With sky and trees, it's the best I have seen, it just won't miss.  It will take a bit of testing around to get it but I find to get the best demarcation, you have to zoom to 100% and then click around the areas that are still showing the effect of the sky. 

It's a very accurate tool, when used the way Wayne describes it.  I would have never thought of trying this way.

Paul


Well I'll be jiggered!  I'm impressed.  I'll have to give this a serious try.  Thanks very much indeed!
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on March 28, 2015, 12:00:25 am
Francisco,

That is an excellent demo. Thanks for sharing it.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Wayne Fox on March 28, 2015, 12:12:50 am
The key to understanding how to use Auto Mask is knowing how the tool actually works...and while Wayne's video really helps (not sure he didn't learn some of that stuff from me–just kidding Wayne) to understand how the Auto Mask works it's really useful to know it works based on the Background Erasure from Photoshop (Mark Hamburg created both).

I'm not sure what the range or fuzzieness that Auto Mask uses when deciding in/out masking (maybe I should ask Mark) but Wayne is correct that the mask is based upon what is under the cursor and using a larger brush and simply single clicking is a technique I use a lot.

But here's a mind screwing thought...rather than using Auto Mask for positive masking (the way Wayne is using it) try to wrap you head around an alternative...painting in a mask without Auto Mask clicked then use the Erasure tool with Auto Mask selected as an option. In this approach you are free-handing the areas of adjustment then subtracting the masked areas using the erase brush.

It take some time to understand and become practiced doing this, but the key to this technique is to be loose with the addition of the mask and select with the subtraction of the mask.

I do both about equally...some of it depends on the range of the adjustments (Auto isn't great for really strong movements) and some of it depends on how easily it is to isolate the areas of adjustment.

However, I will agree that Auto Mask is a really powerful tool if you know how to use it. Good vid tut Wayne!
Appreciate the kudos, both from Jeff and Paul. And there is no doubt that something I've seen Jeff do or demonstrate led me to begin playing with this. What really attracted me to this technique was more about gaining better control on elements than the TAT tool seemed to offer with the HSL panel.

As far as negative selection as mentioned by jeff, such a good point.  Often it is very effective to paint a selection with no mask, then use the mask feature to erase back .. I do this all the time as well.  Often i can use the same idea I showed in the video, a really big brush with no feather to erase the portions.

As I mentioned one thing I like about this technique is gaining much more control over adjustments than often can be obtained with the TAT tool in the HSL panel.  When I use the TAT tool, I"m not 100% sure what is going to be affected and how much.  I also sometimes want to affect more than just whats under the tool.  If I just slide the green saturation slider int he TAT tool, I don't have as much control as selecting all the greens at 100% and using a local adjustment. But with this technique, I can continue clicking on areas of green until I include all of them and then tweak them with more than just luminance and saturation ... I now have all the options of the adjustment brush to work with. And despite the fact the "feather" is set to 0, LR doesn't not make a hard line - there is some logic in blending those edges at the mask line in a pleasing way (thank you Mark Hamburg)

Additionally I find myself using the adjustment brush at 100% far more often and then controlling the adjustment with the sliders even without automask.  I sort of tried this because it's how Capture One's adjustment brushes seem to work, and sometimes it is very helpful.   So instead of trying to build an adjustment, you select an area at 100% then control the amounts with the sliders.

And yes, thanks for the ideas Fransisco ... they look great. Have to try them.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 28, 2015, 06:07:09 am
Thanks!

I have always been fond of the auto masking feature of LR, but this thread gave a lot of insight in making better use of it!

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Idololab on March 28, 2015, 10:48:28 am
Thank you so much, all of you!!!
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: AFairley on March 28, 2015, 12:53:36 pm
Thanks all!  Posts like this make me realize just how much more I have to learn about LR. Not to mention freaking out over the prodigious amount of time I have wasted laboriously painting in area masks by hand.  ::)
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: JeanMichel on March 28, 2015, 03:55:35 pm
Add me to the thanks for this thread. I often use the 'reverse masking' but never thought of the 100% at maximum size technique. Thanks.
Jean-Michel
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: mvsoske on March 28, 2015, 09:08:38 pm
Thoroughly enjoyed this post; the technique is a revelation Wayne - thank you!

Mark
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Anthony.Ralph on March 30, 2015, 06:24:10 am
To save having to reverse the settings after creating the mask, I tried making a virtual copy of an image and making all the adjustments to create a mask as described on that copy. Then I synched the mask back onto the original. This 'seemed' to work, but it would be interesting to hear comments and if I have missed something.

Anthony.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: SanderKikkert on March 30, 2015, 06:41:28 am
Thanks all!  Posts like this make me realize just how much more I have to learn about LR. Not to mention freaking out over the prodigious amount of time I have wasted laboriously painting in area masks by hand.  ::)

+1! Thanks guys. Best Regards, Sander
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: fdisilvestro on March 30, 2015, 06:56:37 am
To save having to reverse the settings after creating the mask, I tried making a virtual copy of an image and making all the adjustments to create a mask as described on that copy. Then I synched the mask back onto the original. This 'seemed' to work, but it would be interesting to hear comments and if I have missed something.

Anthony.

Yes, that should work well too.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: davidedric on March 31, 2015, 08:57:55 am
Just wanted to add my thanks,too.

I've also shared the link to Wayne's video in a couple of other forums - to universal surprise and delight.

Dave
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: John Caldwell on March 31, 2015, 12:59:30 pm
Was it not the case in a prior LR version that Automask sampled the canvas when the brush first touched down, and that the sample was not "updated" as you dragged into areas with differing content?
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Simon Garrett on March 31, 2015, 01:17:48 pm
Was it not the case in a prior LR version that Automask sampled the canvas when the brush first touched down, and that the sample was not "updated" as you dragged into areas with differing content?

That's what I used to think, but if it ever did that, it doesn't now!
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Schewe on March 31, 2015, 02:53:47 pm
Was it not the case in a prior LR version that Automask sampled the canvas when the brush first touched down, and that the sample was not "updated" as you dragged into areas with differing content?

Nope...it always sampled the area in the exact center of the brush (at the cursor) and updated the selected color as you moved the brush–which could lead to unwanted results if the cursor went over the wrong color.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: kirkt on March 31, 2015, 03:16:39 pm
This exercise brings up a question regarding how auto-mask works - is the auto-mask brush sampling an RGB conversion of the raw data to determine the selection of the mask?  If so, couldn't the RGB channels from which auto-mask is drawing color information just be exposed to the user so that the color channel itself could be used as the mask, obviating the need to brush at all?  For example, the aspen grove image, and Francisco's image of the sky versus foliage - the blue channel would give you the mask you are looking for (you could alter the contrast, invert the channel, make a garbage matte to limit the mask, etc.) without having to brush and select the tree trunks or the sky.  

If the auto-mask tool is working on some proxy RGB channels, then it would be cool to see LR make those channels accessible to the user for precisely this kind of adjustment.  The mask pixel intensity would also be based, presumably, on channel luminosity, making the mask vary in intensity instead of a uniform selection of all pixels that meet the auto mask criteria - this would preserve the natural contrast of the mask - presumably this could be overridden with a brush stroke to uniformly select the pixels in the mask.

Just a thought - i realize this is treading the tightrope between LR and PS pixel editing, but I'd be interested to hear how LR creates the auto mask in this context.

kirk
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: John Caldwell on March 31, 2015, 05:01:26 pm
 A few LR versions ago, the Auto Mask sampling behavior was different, as the teaching of the time was the center of the brush at the time of touchdown defined the sample. I used Auto Mask more in those days, and liked this aspect of the sampling. I learned to exploit that aspect from Jeff Schewe's post in 2010, from this thread "Problems With Auto Mask". I still remember the thread because I benefited from it.  http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=49575.0

"Actually, it's a bit more sophisticated...it's the CENTER of where your brush first hits and that point remains for the duration of that stroke. Next stroke it's again the center of THAT stroke. So the better strategy is to be very accurate where you start a stroke and while the mouse is held down you can really go anywhere and that first sample will be the mask tone/color."



It would be interesting to know why the new mask sampling behavior is different. To me it seems that more often than not, we would not want the sample to be continuously updated as we drag into differing content. No? Wayne video is certainly excellent, and he shows a good way to get around the ever-evolving sample, but why is it designed this way?

John-

Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Gulag on March 31, 2015, 05:27:02 pm

 I have never used a selection tool in CC or prior versions of Photoshop that can come close to the accuracy you can get with Auto mask in LR.  I would love to see such a tool implemented in CC, for a copy and paste, it would be a dream.  



That simply says how little you know Photoshop and the selection tools available native to Photoshop. What the guy in the video tries to do can be easily done in Photoshop even in CS2 with much more sophisticated controls available to you. May I suggest you try Select Color Range tool?
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Wayne Fox on March 31, 2015, 05:34:35 pm
That simply says how little you know Photoshop and the selection tools available native to Photoshop. What the guy in the video tries to do can be easily done in Photoshop even in CS2 or CS3 by using the Color Selection Tool.
as the “guy in video”, I will agree with your comment to a point. I have used those tools for many years.  But for me the LR technique is simpler, I believe faster, very effective most of the time, and of course isn’t modifying any pixels or even requiring a secondary file.

there are certainly advantages to layers and masks many times, but with pretty much everything in Photoshop/LR there are many ways to accomplish the same thing, this is an alternative which might be appealing to many.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Gulag on March 31, 2015, 05:45:29 pm
as the “guy in video”, I will agree with your comment to a point. I have used those tools for many years.  But for me the LR technique is simpler, I believe faster, very effective most of the time, and of course isn’t modifying any pixels or even requiring a secondary file.

there are certainly advantages to layers and masks many times, but with pretty much everything in Photoshop/LR there are many ways to accomplish the same thing, this is an alternative which might be appealing to many.

I don't use LR because I use Photoshop CS2, which is a free download from Adobe. There is nothing wrong with your using LR to do what you need to do. But, for me,  CS2 is far better because I can do all I need to do there for free.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: jjj on April 01, 2015, 12:12:31 am
I don't use LR because I use Photoshop CS2, which is a free download from Adobe. There is nothing wrong with your using LR to do what you need to do. But, for me,  CS2 is far better because I can do all I need to do there for free.
Not worth the tiny saving in my view. Newer versions of PS are so much better when it comes to ease of use and in particularly raw conversion.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Tony Jay on April 01, 2015, 01:16:20 am
Not worth the tiny saving in my view. Newer versions of PS are so much better when it comes to ease of use and in particularly raw conversion.
Agreed!

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: jjj on April 01, 2015, 01:24:16 am
That simply says how little you know Photoshop and the selection tools available native to Photoshop. What the guy in the video tries to do can be easily done in Photoshop even in CS2 with much more sophisticated controls available to you. May I suggest you try Select Color Range tool?
I've done stuff in LR really quickly that would take a lot of tedious masking to do in PS and got a better result too. Not just talking auto mask here BTW. As a result I rarely use PS anymore for the sort of selections I used to have to do to grade an image.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Schewe on April 01, 2015, 01:24:59 am
I don't use LR because I use Photoshop CS2, which is a free download from Adobe.

It's only a "free download" if you already own a license...otherwise it's a pirated version. Adobe allowed owners of CS and CS2 to use a non-activated version because the activation server were shut down. So, do you have a legit license to CS2 or not?
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: jjj on April 01, 2015, 01:55:38 am
It's only a "free download" if you already own a license...otherwise it's a pirated version. Adobe allowed owners of CS and CS2 to use a non-activated version because the activation server were shut down. So, do you have a legit license to CS2 or not?
I wondered about that too. But dumbly forgot to mention it.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Simon Garrett on April 01, 2015, 06:25:46 am
It's only a "free download" if you already own a license...otherwise it's a pirated version. Adobe allowed owners of CS and CS2 to use a non-activated version because the activation server were shut down. So, do you have a legit license to CS2 or not?

I completely agree with that point.

However, Adobe appear to be making no attempt to enforce their copyright on CS2, and the existence of the unprotected version is widely known.  In many countries it might be difficult for Adobe to pursue infringers, as courts disapprove of what might be inferred as "ambush" tactics: making something (apparently) freely available, and then only later pursuing "infringers".  They might be able to get the courts to stop people using it, but might be unable to exact any licence fee from infringers. 
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on April 01, 2015, 01:07:43 pm
Well, Wayne Fox's posts always bring a sense of enlightenment to me, big or small :-)
Thanks for bringing it up OP.

I actually had come across this technique sometime back with a sky vs mountain horizon line, but when you don't use something often enough you tend to forget it in theback of your mind , well some of us do, at least... between C1,LR, PS, and other tools, I better use it or loose it :-)

And FranciscoDisilvestro, that was a great follow up in showing a added way of usage! 
And very true as Schewe mentioned the subtractive strength with Erasure.

Yes you can in PS, with color range and other options, but this is regarding Raw dev, and non destructive. There are also plenty masking plugins that try to make it easy. Now once LR or PS figure a way to read your mind and where you want the mask on tricky subjects with mixed backgrounds and it can distinguish between a light gray and a slightly darker gray...then we can have an easier time in editing life.

I will exercise this more often.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Gulag on April 01, 2015, 04:03:54 pm
Not worth the tiny saving in my view. Newer versions of PS are so much better when it comes to ease of use and in particularly raw conversion.

its a big savings in terms of computing power/weight and battery life, especially in the field. Of course,  if you have a team of porters, you can carry everything, including a generator or two. To me the savings are not tiny at all. On the other hand,  the advertising encourages you to use the CC.  So I guess most people will be following that advice. Of course, for many professional retouchers here, the CC will be far better because it now supports their need for more than 100K layers in one document. I guess that is a Progress. But, for shooters like myself, CS2 gives me everything that I ever need, such as color modes, channels, and tons of selection tools. If I need professional retouching work done, I hire professionals. Unlike many here perhaps, I hate spending my time on retouching.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on April 01, 2015, 05:50:33 pm
While this has gotten off topic a bit, but likely enough to fulfill the OP. Some of the responses do give me the opportunity to voice about CC, PS, etc...

 I will be avoiding CC as much as I can. I have CS2,  CS5 and CS6(different licenses).
There are other apps like Corel Paint(I also have up to x7), that I can change to if I have to, and even others if need be. I don't believe in a rental use basis for such a product.

I don't rent cars every 2-4 years to have the latest and greatest, and I don't want to be forced into doing it for the apps I use and pay into. I will resist as much as possible. If LR went cloud, I would surely use alternates. If CS6 stopped working, I would have a dedicated system without upgrades to keep it working, then switch if need be.

Any  company that moves towards rent and greed as the only means of use of their service or product(now a service) in this manner should not be supported in my opinion. If your opinion differes I have heard it, and understand your position and not interested in it and how you find it so great.
Cell phones, internet connections, power, water, gas, all these things we are already forced to pay on a monthly basis. Yet for a greedy software company as some others with greedy lawyers take on this business model, I don't want to be a part of it, and will call it out as GREED. Not only is the encouragementt of this business model hurtful to the mass public, but also very bad for overall economic health and environmentally to be abusing resources just to have them repurchased in such instances of "planned obsolescence".

JMHO
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Gulag on April 02, 2015, 12:53:31 pm
Essentially you're talking about the difference in mentality of those who want to be free and those who desire to be in bondage. But the truth is that the world is full of those who want to be slaves. And nothing you can do about it.

Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on April 02, 2015, 02:23:36 pm
Essentially you're talking about the difference in mentality of those who want to be free and those who desire to be in bondage. But the truth is that the world is full of those who want to be slaves. And nothing you can do about it.

It's full of people who run software for which they've not paid, too. I notice you haven't answered Jeff's question.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Gulag on April 02, 2015, 03:11:52 pm
It's full of people who run software for which they've not paid, too. I notice you haven't answered Jeff's question.

Jeremy

What I was saying is whatever the guy in the video was trying to accomplish in Lightroom can be easily done inside Photoshop,  even in version 7 or CS2. And that is a technical fact. So the op's claim it can only be done easily in Lightroom is technically incorrect. Do you have beef with my claim?

Now back to the question you parroted.  I understand most people don't think or don't need to think.  I tried not to point this out earlier because I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Since people like you keep bringing it up as if it was a great point to make.  

Look,  I'm sorry to say this, but that is a really stupid question.  And it basically reveals how stupid those who believe it's a great question to ask are. Do they really think people simply pirate the software that is a decade old and abandoned to save money?  If whatever the latest is the best,  according to brainwashing advertising, people would simply pirate the latest and many do. Since I don't give a crap, I hope they may Google to see whether or not the CC or CS6 pirate version exists?  

Let me share one of my favorite American poets with you here (and perhaps this quote might have certain relevance).

"There’s nothing to mourn about death any more than there is to mourn about the growing of a flower. What is terrible is not death but the lives people live or don’t live up until their death. They don’t honor their own lives, they piss on their lives. They shit them away. Dumb fuckers. They concentrate too much on fucking, movies, money, family, fucking. Their minds are full of cotton. They swallow God without thinking, they swallow country without thinking. Soon they forget how to think, they let others think for them. Their brains are stuffed with cotton. They look ugly, they talk ugly, they walk ugly. Play them the great music of the centuries and they can’t hear it. Most people’s deaths are a sham. There’s nothing left to die."

— Charles Bukowski
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Gulag on April 02, 2015, 03:27:59 pm
What I was saying is whatever the guy in the video was trying to accomplish in Lightroom can be easily done inside Photoshop,  even in version 7
3 or CS2. And that is a technical fact. So the op's claim it can only be done easily in Lightroom is technically incorrect. I understand people don't have time to learn how to the tools inside Photoshop well because they tend to want some automation to hold their hands. Do you have beef with my claim?

Now back to the question you parroted.  I understand most people don't think or don't need to think.  I tried not to point this out earlier because I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Since people like you keep bringing it up as if it was a great point to make.  

Look,  I'm sorry to say this, but that is a really stupid question.  And it basically reveals how stupid those who believe it's a great question to ask are. Do they really think people simply pirate the software that is a decade old and abandoned to save money?  If whatever the latest is the best,  according to brainwashing advertising, people would simply pirate the latest and many do. Since I don't give a crap, I hope they may Google to see whether or not the CC or CS6 pirate version exists?  

Let me share one of my favorite American poets with you here (and perhaps this quote might have certain relevance).

"There’s nothing to mourn about death any more than there is to mourn about the growing of a flower. What is terrible is not death but the lives people live or don’t live up until their death. They don’t honor their own lives, they piss on their lives. They shit them away. Dumb fuckers. They concentrate too much on fucking, movies, money, family, fucking. Their minds are full of cotton. They swallow God without thinking, they swallow country without thinking. Soon they forget how to think, they let others think for them. Their brains are stuffed with cotton. They look ugly, they talk ugly, they walk ugly. Play them the great music of the centuries and they can’t hear it. Most people’s deaths are a sham. There’s nothing left to die."

— Charles Bukowski
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: jjj on April 02, 2015, 03:30:39 pm
Essentially you're talking about the difference in mentality of those who want to be free and those who desire to be in bondage. But the truth is that the world is full of those who want to be slaves. And nothing you can do about it.
Utter nonsense. I don't like the rental model but I use CC simply because overall, it makes my life easier.  I could stay with CS6 or whatever version to prove a point, but why would I use use inferior/slower software when there is a better version available? I always used the latest version of PS and LR and every update has been significantly improved compared to previous versions, so paying the low monthly fee makes no difference to the cost for me.
And despite the extreme and ridiculous examples you used to say why later versions are not needed, you are convincing no-one but yourself. Recent versions of PS/LR are much faster/easier to use with vast improvements in quality of raw file rendering. I've gone back to old work and redone shots [much quicker too I might add], the quality is that much improved.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: jjj on April 02, 2015, 03:33:30 pm
What I was saying is whatever the guy in the video was trying to accomplish in Lightroom can be easily done inside Photoshop,  even in version 7 or CS2. And that is a technical fact. So the op's claim it can only be done easily in Lightroom is technically incorrect. Do you have beef with my claim?

Now back to the question you parroted.  I understand most people don't think or don't need to think.  I tried not to point this out earlier because I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Since people like you keep bringing it up as if it was a great point to make. 

Look,  I'm sorry to say this, but that is a really stupid question.  And it basically reveals how stupid those who believe it's a great question to ask are. Do they really think people simply pirate the software that is a decade old and abandoned to save money?  If whatever the latest is the best,  according to brainwashing advertising, people would simply pirate the latest and many do. Since I don't give a crap, I hope they may Google to see whether or not the CC or CS6 pirate version exists? 

Let me share one of my favorite American poets with you here (and perhaps this quote might have certain relevance).

"There’s nothing to mourn about death any more than there is to mourn about the growing of a flower. What is terrible is not death but the lives people live or don’t live up until their death. They don’t honor their own lives, they piss on their lives. They shit them away. Dumb fuckers. They concentrate too much on fucking, movies, money, family, fucking. Their minds are full of cotton. They swallow God without thinking, they swallow country without thinking. Soon they forget how to think, they let others think for them. Their brains are stuffed with cotton. They look ugly, they talk ugly, they walk ugly. Play them the great music of the centuries and they can’t hear it. Most people’s deaths are a sham. There’s nothing left to die."

— Charles Bukowski
So despite the very lengthy and not so slyly insulting reply to a simple question, you failed to answer it.
So are you using a legitimate version of PS or a pirated copy?
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Schewe on April 02, 2015, 04:37:01 pm
What I was saying is whatever the guy in the video was trying to accomplish in Lightroom can be easily done inside Photoshop,  even in version 7 or CS2. And that is a technical fact. So the op's claim it can only be done easily in Lightroom is technically incorrect. Do you have beef with my claim?

Yep...the Auto Mask tool in LR is a one step process that when used correctly makes parametric image adjustments in a manner you can't do in Photoshop. To do the same work in Photoshop would require multiple masks and adjustments. In LR, a single mask can be used to control all the adjustment channels available to the Adjustment Brush. I know Photoshop real well, I also know LR very well...knowing both I can pick and choose when and where I do my adjustments. The adjustments in the OP's videos are more easily done in LR. You could accomplish the same thing in Camera Raw, but not the version of camera raw that comes with CS2.

So, do you have a legit license to Photoshop CS2? It would be useful to know to determine the validity of your arguments :~)
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: James R on April 02, 2015, 07:33:49 pm
Gulag will not entertain questions from slaves.  A little history, Gulag was a Soviet government agency that administered its slave labor camps.  :)


Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Schewe on April 03, 2015, 01:44:26 am
Gulag will not entertain questions from slaves.

Huh? Total non sequitur...what's your point?
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on April 03, 2015, 04:07:18 am
So, do you have a legit license to Photoshop CS2? It would be useful to know to determine the validity of your arguments :~)

I think his non-answer makes it pretty plain, Jeff. There'd be no need for such pretentious drivel if the true answer were "yes".

Jeremy
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: James R on April 03, 2015, 04:10:16 am
Huh? Total non sequitur...what's your point?

Jeff, Just an apparent poor attempt at a little humor--his calling some slaves and his screen name.  Some times my mind moves in odd directions.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: emcguirk on April 03, 2015, 04:56:07 am
Getting back to the original posters topic. Wayne thank you for this insightful video. Yes, one can do much the same thing thing from within Photoshop, but it's nice to have the option to do it within the Lightroom environment without a trip to Photoshop.

Using the LR adjustment brush in the manner described in the video provides similar functionality to the Control Points within Nik software such as Color Efex or Viveza. I'm sure the mask it creates is a little different than the one generated by Nik's control points, but it allows one to get some "Control Point Like" functionality from within Lightroom.

Because Adobe presented it as an adjustment "brush", I've always used it like a brush. With your insight Wayne, I now also think of it like a control point and that opens up another powerful avenue for using this tool.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: pegelli on April 03, 2015, 06:24:15 am
Thanks Wayne, I've dabbled with auto masking, but never in the way you described. Very useful and I have being applied a lot more since I saw your video.

For me the big attraction of doing this in Lightroom is not only simplicity, doing it in there also makes sure no pixels are changed and I don't have to keep large files with multiple layers in case I want to change something at a later date.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: eliedinur on April 03, 2015, 09:46:22 am
For me the big attraction of doing this in Lightroom is not only simplicity, doing it in there also makes sure no pixels are changed and I don't have to keep large files with multiple layers in case I want to change something at a later date.

Very relevant point.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Paul2660 on April 03, 2015, 02:35:51 pm
I had not looked at this post in a while.  I guess I should have stated that for my use and experience level with Photoshop selection tools, I have not found anything that works this well.  As a landscape photographer, the use of the color selection process in CC I don't feel can come close.  CC can never differentiate between all the various levels of blue in the sky, net, I always find problems.  I am sure that others who are more experienced can do better.

I just find the LR implementation a lot more to my process flow.  You can just keep clicking on the sky until the auto mask gets everything.  No it's not perfect, as I still have some images where it just doesn't seem to work, but they are in the minority. 

I tend to pull my tif files back to LR to work on them anyway, doing less in CC than ever before unless I want to run a filter and need a layer to blend.  The toolset in LR including auto mask just work better for me, other examples, adjustment brush (without auto mask) ability to make WB adjustments in an adjustment mask (in LR) and selective color, and the gradient tool.  I also would love to be able to click on a color in an image to make a selective color adjustment as Capture One allows. 

I would love to see LR give you the ability to erase portion of the gradient mask like can be done in Capture one.  It's my understanding this is already implemented in the latest version of Camera raw, but we are still waiting on LR 6 for it. 

Paul
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: jjj on April 03, 2015, 07:16:21 pm
Jeff, Just an apparent poor attempt at a little humor--his calling some slaves and his screen name.  Some times my mind moves in odd directions.
I thought it was quite a good observation myself.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: jjj on April 03, 2015, 07:25:31 pm
I would love to see LR give you the ability to erase portion of the gradient mask like can be done in Capture one.  It's my understanding this is already implemented in the latest version of Camera raw, but we are still waiting on LR 6 for it. 
Most recent update was for new cameras. New features usually tend to come in full updates not point updates, but you can indeed edit a grad filter with a brush in ACR 8.8. Which also seems to completely lock up if I swap applications part way through using it.   :-\
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Glenn NK on April 03, 2015, 07:53:55 pm
Essentially you're talking about the difference in mentality of those who want to be free and those who desire to be in bondage. But the truth is that the world is full of those who want to be slaves. And nothing you can do about it.



I'll try to be polite.

Nonsense.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: eliedinur on April 04, 2015, 07:07:35 am
Quote
I'll try to be polite.

Nonsense.

Admirable restraint.
Puerile I would have called it.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: David Eichler on April 04, 2015, 04:38:05 pm
What books provide comprehensive and detailed guidance about the capabilities and advanced techniques for using the adjustment brush in the current version of LR, especially with regard to automasking?
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Glenn NK on April 05, 2015, 01:58:11 pm
What books provide comprehensive and detailed guidance about the capabilities and advanced techniques for using the adjustment brush in the current version of LR, especially with regard to automasking?

I don't know of one single reference that covers everything (although there may be one), but I GOOGLED "lightroom automasking" and found quite a few good videos by well known LR users.

Glenn
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: dreed on April 17, 2015, 02:23:44 pm
Yep...the Auto Mask tool in LR is a one step process that when used correctly makes parametric image adjustments in a manner you can't do in Photoshop. To do the same work in Photoshop would require multiple masks and adjustments. In LR, a single mask can be used to control all the adjustment channels available to the Adjustment Brush. I know Photoshop real well, I also know LR very well...knowing both I can pick and choose when and where I do my adjustments. The adjustments in the OP's videos are more easily done in LR.

Is there an easy way to get an inverse mask of a mask created with a brush and auto-mask in LR?

And speaking of which, it would be also nice to see the full per-colour channel adjustments for hue, saturation and luminosity available for brushes and gradients rather than just the top-level adjustments.

Who do I need to buy drinks for in order to convince them that this is a good idea? ;)

btw, in big cities and in a modern world, some of us don't own a car (or rent one from a bank) but rather get around by taxi (hi uber!) or use car sharing schemes.
Title: Re: Auto Mask in LR 5.7--excellent and amazing tool
Post by: Schewe on April 17, 2015, 06:17:25 pm
Who do I need to buy drinks for in order to convince them that this is a good idea? ;)

Eric Chan would be the guy. Known around here as MadManChan :~)

I know this is on his radar as we've talked about it already. Some many features, so little time is the problem.