Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Theodoros on March 26, 2015, 05:07:54 pm
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Leica has moved the production of S-007 for the second quarter of 2015.... http://us.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Leica-News/About-Leica-News/Global/The-New-Camera-System-Leica-S-Type-007. This can be up to three months later than the announcement on September 2014... What you think the reasons are? Where there any preorders filed? Is there a compensation for preorders?
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Hi,
I would think of two possibilities:
- Sensor production may be late for different reasons
- It may take longer than expected to make in camera firmware to work with the sensor
Best regards
Erik
Leica has moved the production of S-007 for the second quarter of 2015.... http://us.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Leica-News/About-Leica-News/Global/The-New-Camera-System-Leica-S-Type-007. This can be up to three months later than the announcement on September 2014... What you think the reasons are? Where there any preorders filed? Is there a compensation for preorders?
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Hi,
I would think of two possibilities:
- Sensor production may be late for different reasons
- It may take longer than expected to make in camera firmware to work with the sensor
Best regards
Erik
...or both.
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The validation test matrix of such cameras with completely new sub-systems is astonishingly complex and some of it depends on the actual manufacturing.
Just think of the flare issue with the D750 resulting of a slight misplacement of some parts in the mirrorbox. And consider that some 1Dx samples were found then to suffer from the same issue to an even worse degree although few people had raised the issue openly.
No insider info on the new S, but the odds of coming accross some issues late in the process (in actual field testing of near final prototypes) is significant.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Leica has moved the production of S-007 for the second quarter of 2015.... http://us.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Leica-News/About-Leica-News/Global/The-New-Camera-System-Leica-S-Type-007. This can be up to three months later than the announcement on September 2014... What you think the reasons are? Where there any preorders filed? Is there a compensation for preorders?
What is the news here? I thought is was scheduled for Q2 2015 since launch? I don't see any change in the note that you link to?
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Hmm, every article I can find from the initial announcement including Leica's Press Release last September all say Q2 2015! So it seems that would mean it is on schedule.
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Google is your friend....
"The launch of the Leica S (Type 007) is planned for spring 2015"
- from a press release at Photokina Sept 16 ,2014
http://www.ephotozine.com/article/leica-s--typ-007--and-s-e-announced-at-photokina-26192
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Because making a high-end digital camera that works is very, very hard.
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Because considering the relative specifications and cost of the system, any glaring production or firmware errors would be disasterous for the S system and Leica's reputation. It's the same for all these systems that cater for such a small niche market, be it Hasselblad, Leaf or Phase. And lets not forget about the M8 debacle – my personal experience with that ruined my trust of the the Leica brand and it took a long time for me to look fondly at them again. I hope that they get it right, as the 007 has some compelling features, even if price certainly isn't one of them.
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OMG, the usual suspect(s) creating FUD.
The new S has always been scheduled for second quarter of 2015, from the announcement at PK '14.
Theodorius, I suggest you be a man about it, admit your mistake and change the thread-title.
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OMG, the usual suspect(s) creating FUD.
The new S has always been scheduled for second quarter of 2015, from the announcement at PK '14.
Theodoros, I suggest you be a man about it, admit your mistake and change the thread-title.
If you didn't notice we ARE on spring 2015 for a week now.... It is usual practice from manufacturers to have preproduction samples available for testing and reviewing before regular production and availability on the stores starts.
Still, you completely misunderstood my approach. IMO, Leica can't afford to have a product that is second to none and I'm sure this Leica will aim to make a clear performance advantage on all different aspects of photography than the obvious competition that has dominated MF discussions during the past year and is based on Sony's CMOS sensor.
IMO, the choice of 6 microns pixel pitch on the new sensor, suggests that Leica is not only after a great sensor/processor to use on the (superb body) S-007, but they are designing a new larger sensor base, that will be integrated with larger resolution/image area on to the Sinarbacks, S-007's version will be a cropped version of it and the same sensor will be cropped down to 24x36mm/24mp size for use on the M-series...
My impression is that there is a delay (Leica's people in Photokina where saying that the camera would be available at late March), but this isn't due to "problems" they are facing, it is rather to maximize the camera to every different aspect of performance... That said, I expect a new series of Sinarbacks (based on 6-micron CMOS sensor) announced after the S-007 will start its market career.
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I hope that they get it right, as the 007 has some compelling features, even if price certainly isn't one of them.
I wonder why many people complain on the price... It is a lot of money alright, but given that it is priced much less than any direct competition for camera + MFDB (for same size sensor)... and given that one can have a great range of additional fully dedicated lenses on it of superb performance that are both widely available and attractively priced via an adapter that Leica makes, the price seems more than reasonable, especially if one considers that it bares the red dot on it and its video specs.
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Don't know anything about the s 007, don't know if many do, except Leica.
But these posts don't inform they just confuse and take value away from a forum that had so much potential to inform, rather than just harm a brand.
I do know about the first S, the S2 and just finished using it for a weeks project, tethered, with flash, and mixed light and available light and zero issues, extreme stable tethering using Leica Image Shuttle and Lightroom.
I don't sell cameras, I use them, but the S2 for our work performs in a simple elegant fashion, beautifully constructed and we have had zero issues while producing "in my view" gorgeous files and beautiful skin tones.
I would imagine the S is better and hope the 007 continues the theme.
This section of the forum has become so strange and I don't get it. I can understand if someone has a valid issue and wants to warn someone,but most of the other stuff here I just pass over.
I started to read that thread that Cheik was kind enough to show the Hasselblad file and the new Canon and as usual it moved off topic, all the way down to comparing the Pentax to the a 35mm camera, I don't know whch brand because I didn't pay much attention after that.
What I don't understand about any of this is until you use a camera in your style or workflow how anyone can comment, especially in the negative.
Before I bought my first RED 1, I read time and time again how unreliable the REDs are, how they were overpriced, not ready for serious work, etc. etc., but have lugged 2 R1's and one Scarlet around the world twice on many multiple projects and have NEVER had an issue.
The same with my S-2. If I believed in current forum talk it would be too slow, too expensive, have slow focusing, not enough megapixels, etc. etc. etc., but I've found the 100% exact opposite using it in serious production where every minute on set is expensive, pressure filled and important.
IMO
BC
P.S. In reading what I wrote I guess I didn't add anything to the forum either, so maybe it's contagious.
from an old leica m8, which I still use.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/old_m8_barcelona_studio.jpg)
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/rock_2.jpg)
Be honest, how many times have you written this exact same post over the years? ;D It starts with Leica pimping, usually about a shoot where the camera was tethered and everything worked great, and ends with REDs and an example file from Leica S.
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The MF forum on Lula used to be a gathering place for knowledgeable pros and serious amateurs to discuss real issues are MF photography. Now it's mostly the same people, having the same tedious conversation with themselves, over and over and over. It drives out the high-value people and diminishes the value to the general readership.
The 'S3' aka 007 will come out when it comes out. In the meantime, like my girl Taylor says, the pros are gonna shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot, and the wankers gonna wank wank wank wank wank and I'm just gonna shake shake shake shake shake....
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from an old leica m8, which I still use.
What firmware version is that ;D Mine doesn't take shots like that ??? Obviously it's the firmware ::) ::)
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The MF forum on Lula used to be a gathering place for knowledgeable pros and serious amateurs to discuss real issues are MF photography. Now it's mostly the same people, having the same tedious conversation with themselves, over and over and over. It drives out the high-value people and diminishes the value to the general readership.
The 'S3' aka 007 will come out when it comes out. In the meantime, like my girl Taylor says, the pros are gonna shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot, and the wankers gonna wank wank wank wank wank and I'm just gonna shake shake shake shake shake....
Indeed. Hypothesis, postulation and statements of authority seem to appear frequently, but all too often with no real information - more, ephemera. But like a reality show, it can make for a bit of entertainment when the inevitable offense is taken, or offered. ;)
Shooting'...... and shakin' here.
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What firmware version is that ;D Mine doesn't take shots like that ??? Obviously it's the firmware ::) ::)
I'm disappointed Chris. Surely you know better, and that it's the red dot ... ;)
Cheers,
Bart
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I'm disappointed Chris. Surely you know better, and that it's the red dot ... ;)
Cheers,
Bart
Can't be, I've got it taped up ;D
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Can't be, I've got it taped up ;D
That just enhances its powers...
Jim
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If you didn't notice we ARE on spring 2015 for a week now.... It is usual practice from manufacturers to have preproduction samples available for testing and reviewing before regular production and availability on the stores starts.
Spring doesn't end until June 21! Q2 doesn't end until June 31! So fears of a delay are premature!
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Spring doesn't end until June 21! Q2 doesn't end until June 31! So fears of a delay are premature!
June 31? Then we have a lot of time left.
Jim
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Might be a coding issue, issues with thE video portion....or they may surprise all of us and actually produce a camera with a 2015 sensor with 2015 capabilities.
But my guess it is related to third party issues that leica wants fixed before they release the new S, which IMHO is a more likely reality!
Fingers crossed.
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The MF forum on Lula used to be a gathering place for knowledgeable pros and serious amateurs to discuss real issues are MF photography. Now it's mostly the same people, having the same tedious conversation with themselves, over and over and over. It drives out the high-value people and diminishes the value to the general readership.
The 'S3' aka 007 will come out when it comes out. In the meantime, like my girl Taylor says, the pros are gonna shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot, and the wankers gonna wank wank wank wank wank and I'm just gonna shake shake shake shake shake....
Well said. This pretty much sums it up. It's a shame.
I for one am tired of seeing the same people have the same discussions over and over. It's pretty pathetic. Between the lines some good info is being said but its being lost in all the squabbles.
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The MF forum on Lula used to be a gathering place for knowledgeable pros and serious amateurs to discuss real issues are MF photography. Now it's mostly the same people, having the same tedious conversation with themselves, over and over and over. It drives out the high-value people and diminishes the value to the general readership.
The 'S3' aka 007 will come out when it comes out. In the meantime, like my girl Taylor says, the pros are gonna shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot, and the wankers gonna wank wank wank wank wank and I'm just gonna shake shake shake shake shake....
I agree. But the sad truth is : All known forums as changed.
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June 31? Then we have a lot of time left.
Jim
LOL, I knew when I was typing it that I should have counted it out on my knuckles - June 30 of course ;D
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I see that the OP has followed my advice - sort of - and has quietly changed the thread-title by adding a question mark. Well, it's a start.
Still, this thread is flawed and completely unnecessary since quarter 2 starts on april first and lasts until the 30th of june. After that, we'll see if the new S will be delayed or not. All this attention-seeking/stirring the pot just to hammer the same ideas over and over again is hurting this forum, I agree.
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Unless one is already heavily invested in, or just really likes the S lenses, is there any reason to be excited about this camera anymore?
Gonna play devil's advocate for a moment here, but the 645Z:
- is just as weather sealed
- actually has tethering now
- has higher resolution, proven dynamic range and noise qualities
- 4:3 aspect ratio
- tilt screen, 16x magnification
- almost as many shots per second
- batteries same as all Pentax cameras
- is 2.88x less expensive
- you can go out and buy or rent it right now
Both use Lightroom, so no difference on the software front. I'm sure I've missed a few less-important bullet points, but why would you pay almost three times the price for less features? I'm sure the S glass is amazing, but then you pay out the nose for those too, and you do also lose the adaptability of other system lenses, but is that privilege really worth 25k? Video is of course irrelevant on a camera like this.
Back when the choice was between 40mp CCD sensor cameras, like the 645D, S 006 and IQ140, I saw the Leica offering as a more compelling offer than the 645D, even with it's price premium.
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Unless one is already heavily invested in, or just really likes the S lenses, is there any reason to be excited about this camera anymore?
Gonna play devil's advocate for a moment here, but the 645Z:
- is just as weather sealed
- actually has tethering now
- has higher resolution, proven dynamic range and noise qualities
- 4:3 aspect ratio
- tilt screen, 16x magnification
- almost as many shots per second
- batteries same as all Pentax cameras
- is 2.88x less expensive
- you can go out and buy or rent it right now
Both use Lightroom, so no difference on the software front. I'm sure I've missed a few less-important bullet points, but why would you pay almost three times the price for less features? I'm sure the S glass is amazing, but then you pay out the nose for those too, and you do also lose the adaptability of other system lenses, but is that privilege really worth 25k? Video is of course irrelevant on a camera like this.
Back when the choice was between 40mp CCD sensor cameras, like the 645D, S 006 and IQ140, I saw the Leica offering as a more compelling offer than the 645D, even with it's price premium.
The 645z is not sexy, the Leica S is. ;D
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The 645z is not sexy, the Leica S is. ;D
Yeah, I have to agree. Money-no-object, I'd be all over it. Gorgeous tool.
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You buy one of these as an elective, something you want to use and I'll agree that the Pentax for the price is pretty cool, though there is a difference between the way the cameras feel in hand.
I've never held or seen a 645Z though tested the 645d and obviously the Leica S2.
I liked the Pentax but there is just a difference that is hard to quantify and at the time the 645d didn't tether well, but if it had, I still would have bought the Leica.
Sorry for the cliche, but to me the difference is Japanese efficiency vs. German craftsmanship or something like that.
There is probably no logical reason for either the Leica or the Pentax. Clients won't ask for the resolution, most won't know if there is any difference on set than a Nikon or a Canon and obviously what's in front of the lens is definitely more important than the camera.•
The real difference between the two is the lenses and not just leica glass. With the Pentax the newer glass is not necessarily cheap, or you have to search out a lot of used glass (and usually test them) to get where you want to be.
The Leica allows full functionality with Contax, Hasselblad H series and two versions of Leica glass, so with the H series and the Leica CS lenses you can have a central shutter or not, either economically or at nose bleed prices . . . your choice.
Though when it comes to price, neither are cheap, but then again different usually comes with a premium price in any product.
•The only still cameras we use that clients seem to notice is my older contax and phase backs, especially with a waist level finder. Honestly the last session I shot with the Contax the clients at first asked if I was shooting film.
It is interesting that either due to the form factor, maybe it's just my mindset, but with my Contax I tend to shot more static, with the Leica more fluid, though the final quality of the file from my p30 to the S-2 is virtually identical.
Both are ccd's and not to start a chart/dxo/moire crop war, I like the look of the ccd cameras I own better than the cmos cameras, so whenever the the 007 comes out, I'll probably be one of the last people to try it.
IMO
BC
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I'm sure the S glass is amazing, but then you pay out the nose for those too, and you do also lose the adaptability of other system lenses
Leica makes several adapters to use lenses from other medium-format systems on the S cameras. The Hasselblad H and Contax 645 adapters allow full control of aperture, AF, and central ("leaf") shutters, where applicable, on S cameras.
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Unless one is already heavily invested in, or just really likes the S lenses, is there any reason to be excited about this camera anymore?
Gonna play devil's advocate for a moment here, but the 645Z:
- is just as weather sealed
- actually has tethering now
- has higher resolution, proven dynamic range and noise qualities
- 4:3 aspect ratio
- tilt screen, 16x magnification
- almost as many shots per second
- batteries same as all Pentax cameras
- is 2.88x less expensive
- you can go out and buy or rent it right now
Both use Lightroom, so no difference on the software front. I'm sure I've missed a few less-important bullet points, but why would you pay almost three times the price for less features? I'm sure the S glass is amazing, but then you pay out the nose for those too, and you do also lose the adaptability of other system lenses, but is that privilege really worth 25k? Video is of course irrelevant on a camera like this.
Back when the choice was between 40mp CCD sensor cameras, like the 645D, S 006 and IQ140, I saw the Leica offering as a more compelling offer than the 645D, even with it's price premium.
What will happen to this camera once Phase One's 120 MP digital back comes out?
How much will that one cost?
Is it scheduled for this year?
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What will happen to this camera once Phase One's 120 MP digital back comes out?
How much will that one cost?
Is it scheduled for this year?
Buddy, I'm sure Phase One will look for 500mp as to improve on image quality... I'm also sure (and hope) that Leica will never will... ;)
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Are you sure or do you hope or are you kidding yourself?
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Ah, the mytical 120 mpx back. Do you think they'll release that with the new Phase One body? :o
Maybe... But I'll believe it when I see it. In the mean time, the Leica S is a lovely system for those that don't consider mpx everything.
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Ah, the mytical 120 mpx back.
;D Voidshatter isn't saying anything about it being mythical.
Do you think they'll release that with the new Phase One body? :o
Who cares? :D
Maybe... But I'll believe it when I see it. In the mean time, the Leica S is a lovely system for those that don't consider mpx everything.
So you do believe the myth, after all? ;D
I am so intrigued about how this camera will fare, with its monstrous price tag and obsolete features.
I'm still waiting for people, such as Theodoros and bcooter, to explain themselves about why they will buy this camera, and not with some romantic, vague, and impressionistic reasons, but something a lot more palpable.
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;D Voidshatter isn't saying anything about it being mythical.
Who cares?
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I'm still waiting for people, such as Theodoros and bcooter, to explain themselves about why they will buy this camera, and not with some romantic, vague, and impressionistic reasons, but something a lot more palpable.
Maybe, because of the lenses, the compact and solid body and because I would use both the leaf and focal plane shutter. ???
Maybe because I don't need the 10000 megabytes output for those humans I would be shooting with the camera ???
Maybe because I have a view camera and digiback if I decide to shoot a landscape or need the movements. ???
Maybe because I don't feel restricted by the older technology.
Maybe you are right and I am just a romantic.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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I'm still waiting for people, such as Theodoros and bcooter, to explain themselves about why they will buy this camera, and not with some romantic, vague, and impressionistic reasons, but something a lot more palpable.
It has been explained to you many times... but it seems difficult for you to understand.
1. It is really cheap, it costs much less than any P1/M645+back or H5-50...
2. It replaces and improves further all needs for a FF DSLR... for size, flexibility, low light performance or use.
3. It becomes even cheaper if one sells all his DSLR system...
4. I (and many others) already own the lenses from 35mm up to 210+extender=300mm...
5. I expect its image quality to exceed anything in the market
6. I (and many others) don't care about pixel count... In fact prefer the resolution as is and find it more than plenty.
So please.... don't ask again for things that have been explained already.
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It has been explained to you many times... but it seems difficult for you to understand.
1. It is really cheap, it costs much less than any P1/M645+back or H5-50...
2. It replaces and improves further all needs for a FF DSLR... for size, flexibility, low light performance or use.
3. It becomes even cheaper if one sells all his DSLR system...
4. I (and many others) already own the lenses from 35mm up to 210+extender=300mm...
5. I expect its image quality to exceed anything in the market
6. I (and many others) don't care about pixel count... In fact prefer the resolution as is and find it more than plenty.
So please.... don't ask again for things that have been explained already.
You will be held accountable once this camera sees the light of day. I stumbled upon one of your posts from a few months ago with some wild and inaccurate predictions, that should have been reality by now, but which aren't, so I'm waiting to see what happens with this.
Thankfully there are contributors such as bcooter who have the balls to post real name valued opinion and images.
At the other end of the spectrum are the spineless gobshites hiding behind pseudonyms who contribute nothing.
Do tell.
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Ι'm sure for some, the closest they'll ever be to 007... will be when they order vodka-martini (shaken not stirred) at the nearest pub. ;D
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This is the type of conversation I try to stay away from.
I'm not selling cameras or trying to move minds, I'm not paid for that and I'm definitely a pay for play person.
I also try not to damage brands based on rumor, or worship or well any reason other than to report a first hand issue.
That's just not important to me.
What I comment on, what I show, is based on what I use and my point is there is a lot of conjecture on this and other forums about what is "the best" based on nothing but reading the web, or someone else's review.
You know when the Nikon 800 came out the volume of "chatter" was so intense on this subsection and to me as big a turn off as the RED forums I tired to tune it out, which I've learned is impossible if your going to contribute.
I've rarely been moved by a forum post to buy something, but I'll admit the constant d800 noise really turned me off and though it didn't push me to buy a Leica, it didn't stop me either.
I could make a long list of why I bought a Leica, to most that's not important and that's cool.
To me it interesting that people think of Leica as only for the affluent. When I put it on paper, it was a good professional option.
it iss the only camera that gave full functionality, including autofocus, to two other brand's lenses, and offered a dng file that allow me to walk over to any of our computer stations and open the file.
I love that and conversely loathe having to buy new software every time I add a camera.
I mention the RED's because I spend a lot more of my time shooting with them than any still camera and the REDs were a complete revelation to our work. For the first time a company made a 35mm digital film camera that was affordable and gave close to the quality of 35mm film.
That was a huge leap that is difficult to quantify unless you work in motion imagery and more and more photographers have added or moved to some type of motion imagery, so I assume there is some relevance.
The strange thing is rarely does someone that doesn't use a certain camera care why someone else choses to use, or worse just flame the brand because they learned how to type and their bored.
Why I show Imagery is simple. That's what I spend most of my life working on.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/moscow_leica.jpg)
IMO
BC
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The more I use my IQ160 with the H1 (and C1pro) the more I love that combination for Studio work and even location work. I was really bored of the Canon/Lightroom look. I do not love the Nikon color either. Yes I know one can manipulate almost any file to look like anything but the Phase system is so dialed to what I like that it makes it a pleasure to work with.
My point is that after a while one starts looking for different things. In optics its the same thing. So it is great to have options to choose from.
I know a lot of you here do not really understand this, maybe because you are so focused and wrapped up on the technical aspects of photography that you scorn at any subjective appreciation of photo gear.
Looking forward to seeing images made with the Leica S-007. Whenever it comes out.
Il leave you with this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_PIqg449is
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Il leave you with this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_PIqg449is
For which I thank you profusely
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The more I use my IQ160 with the H1 (and C1pro) the more I love that combination for Studio work and even location work. I was really bored of the Canon/Lightroom look. I do not love the Nikon color either. Yes I know one can manipulate almost any file to look like anything but the Phase system is so dialed to what I like that it makes it a pleasure to work with.
My point is that after a while one starts looking for different things. In optics its the same thing. So it is great to have options to choose from.
I know a lot of you here do not really understand this, maybe because you are so focused and wrapped up on the technical aspects of photography that you scorn at any subjective appreciation of photo gear.
Looking forward to seeing images made with the Leica S-007. Whenever it comes out.
Il leave you with this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_PIqg449is
thanks for your video, Ken. btw, if you don't like the SLR Lightroom look, you can use in-camera jpegs ...
Edmund
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Il leave you with this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_PIqg449is
Thanks for sharing!!
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-lens quality
-smaller body with better ergonomics
-AF info on the chip-no need for AF fine tuning; no messing around with AF inconsistency
-central shutter for flash
-lens quality
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-lens quality
-smaller body with better ergonomics
-AF info on the chip-no need for AF fine tuning; no messing around with AF inconsistency
-central shutter for flash
-lens quality
+ no need for DSLR anymore.... One system to serve them all...
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+ no need for DSLR anymore.... One system to serve them all...
It can cover a lot, but the lack of very wide, fast primes and fast tele lenses means that you typically still need a DSLR anyway, right?
On the wide side you could stitch with a normal lens to compensate for the lack of wide lenses, but I don't see any way to replace a 200mm f2 or 400mm f2.8 and those are essential creative tools for many photographers.
Cheers,
Bernard
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It can cover a lot, but the lack of very wide, fast primes and fast tele lenses means that you typically still need a DSLR anyway, right?
On the wide side you could stitch with a normal lens to compensate for the lack of wide lenses, but I don't see any way to replace a 200mm f2 or 400mm f2.8 and those are essential creative tools for many photographers.
Cheers,
Bernard
Well.... maybe action photography is still not supported as well as with a DSLR, but one has to admit that with MF CMos sensors, the gap has narrowed significantly... I suppose that faster long lenses will start appearing as soon as future S models will be even more noise free at higher ISO and bodies will become even faster.
That said, I expect thousands of new customers for the S007 out of the world's better wedding/portrait photographers. Surely, they would like to (visually) differentiate themselves from the "mass" of "wedding/portrait photography" that is now offered to people, the new 100/2 lens seems to have exactly those in mind.... I also expect the second hand market prices for the Contax-Zeiss 140/2.8 & 210/4 to start rising considerably as long as the S007 appears in the market.
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Theodoros,
...I expect thousands of new customers for the S007 out of the world's better wedding/portrait photographers. Surely, they would like to (visually) differentiate themselves from the "mass" of "wedding/portrait photography" that is now offered to people...
I would have thought that the work of the world's better wedding/portrait photographers speaks for itself and that the photographers of it feel no need to visually differentiate themselves from the "mass".
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Theodoros,
I would have thought that the work of the world's better wedding/portrait photographers speaks for itself and that the photographers of it feel no need to visually differentiate themselves from the "mass".
1. The better ones always want to improve further on their work... 2. The customers of them (in too many cases) don't have the aesthetics to appreciate better photography, they pay better what they think justifies the cost... 3. Most photographers want to add prestige on their work, it shows to the customer that they pay attention to the detail.... 4. Many photographers would love to shoot through a large, bright viewfinder, it helps them to be more creative.... 5. The camera seems well specified for high quality video, for wedding photographers this ability is very important as they integrate their equipment for hybrid use having multiple solutions of maximum quality with minimum of equipment...
MO is that the S-007 will be the standard for hi-end wedding photography among the better (or the ones that will want to look as being among the best) photographers for all the above reasons. Let's not forget that there is a good number among the best wedding photographers that use MF film with Contax 645 camera for a part of their work... The S-007 looks perfect reason for them to sell all their DSLR stuff and integrate the S-007 (instead of an MFDB) in their existing stuff, with minimum cost (as selling the DSLR system can finance significantly the change), minimum of equipment of higher quality to be carried (very important for wedding photography), yet improving quality by a considerable margin.
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1. The better ones always want to improve further on their work... 2. The customers of them (in too many cases) don't have the aesthetics to appreciate better photography, they pay better what they think justifies the cost... 3. Most photographers want to add prestige on their work, it shows to the customer that they pay attention to the detail.... 4. Many photographers would love to shoot through a large, bright viewfinder, it helps them to be more creative.... 5. The camera seems well specified for high quality video, for wedding photographers this ability is very important as they integrate their equipment for hybrid use having multiple solutions of maximum quality with minimum of equipment...
MO is that the S-007 will be the standard for hi-end wedding photography among the better (or the ones that will want to look as being among the best) photographers for all the above reasons. Let's not forget that there is a good number among the best wedding photographers that use MF film with Contax 645 camera for a part of their work... The S-007 looks perfect reason for them to sell all their DSLR stuff and integrate the S-007 (instead of an MFDB) in their existing stuff, with minimum cost (as selling the DSLR system can finance significantly the change), minimum of equipment of higher quality to be carried (very important for wedding photography), yet improving quality by a considerable margin.
You are probably talking about less than 100 people worldwide...
As far as improving quality by a considerable margin, I am just curious what you base this on knowing that nobody has shot with the 007 and that excellent options such as the 5Ds will give access to a much wider array of lenses, including the Otus that lack AF but are probably at least as good as the S lenses?
Cheers,
Bernard
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You are probably talking about less than 100 people worldwide...
Weren't you?
I don't see any way to replace a 200mm f2 or 400mm f2.8 and those are essential creative tools for many photographers.
Anyway, constantly repeating this Otus on FF DSLR is the best/all you need and stitch story is beginning to sound like a broken record too.
pros and cons of Leica S lenses against the Zeiss Otus:
Cons:
-The Otus line offers faster lenses
Pros:
-Much more focal lengths in the Leica S lens line up available now. The Otus line only has 2 lenses available
-Leica S lenses offer weather sealing
-Leica S lenses offer auto focus
-Leica S lenses offer auto aperture (further up in this thread, Erik points out that the Otus lenses do have auto aperture on Canon and Nikon)
-Leica S lenses offer a larger image circle
I agree we'll have to wait and see what the new S brings.
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At this point I don't know what scares me worse -the shallow DR of the 5Ds, or the expense of the Leica 007- but I am afraid that I will have to pass on both because of a combination of demandingness and avarice. How sad!
Edmund
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Hi,
AFAIK the Otuses have auto aperture.
It is quite right that there are only two Otus lenses, but there are more very good Zeiss lenses that come to mind, like 135/2 APO. The 25/2 and the Macro 100/2.0 are no slouches either, except the 25/2 having weak corners and the 100/2.0 having a lot of axial chroma at large apertures.
I have only seen a single comparison between the 100/2 macro on Nikon D800E and the Leica S2 using their 120 mm macro, in that case the 100/2 on the D800E had better corners and the S2 was better in the center.
Again, from what I have seen, the Leica lenses are not fully corrected for axial chroma, that is they show fringing on out of focus areas while the two Otuses and the 135/2 APO don't have fringing.
So, right now, I may feel that a high MP DSLR may give better sharpness than the S2, specially as it has live view, while the Leica S is limited to viewfinder focusing. That may of course change when the S (type 007) arrives.
One additional advantage of DSLRs is that they have a selection of T&S lenses.
Personally I am speculating on a 50 MP Sony A (perhaps A9) coming this year. The A7R is not what the doctor ordinated for me. I would combine it with the Mirex T&S adapter and buy the Zeiss 135/2 APO Sonnar and the Canon 24/TS lenses. I would keep my existing bunch of Sony lenses as they can be used with adapters on the Sony A-series.
I have no doubt that the Leica S system is excellent, and with the S (type 007) they will even have decent DR. But, I am pretty certain that high MP DSLR/Mirrorless will offer more bang for the buck, and for greatest bang we need to go with Phase One or Leaf.
Best regards
Erik
Cons:
-The Otus line offers faster lenses
Pros:
-Much more focal lengths in the Leica S lens line up available now. The Otus line only has 2 lenses available
-Leica S lenses offer weather sealing
-Leica S lenses offer auto focus
-Leica S lenses offer auto aperture
-Leica S lenses offer a larger image circle
I agree we'll have to wait and see what the new S brings.
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You are probably talking about less than 100 people worldwide...
How many are really world's top wedding photographers is one thing... Possible customers (out of wedding photographers) is another...
As far as improving quality by a considerable margin, I am just curious what you base this on knowing that nobody has shot with the 007 and that excellent options such as the 5Ds will give access to a much wider array of lenses, including the Otus that lack AF but are probably at least as good as the S lenses?
Cheers,
Bernard
I don't see "top" wedding photographers choosing ...another Canon (or Nikon) for their work! In fact I don't see any wedding photographer choosing the 5ds for the job (or other DSLR of that high pixel density)... I don't see them choosing a MF only lens either!
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Anyway, constantly repeating this Otus on FF DSLR is the best/all you need and stitch story is beginning to sound like a broken record too.
pros and cons of Leica S lenses against the Zeiss Otus:
...
I agree we'll have to wait and see what the new S brings.
Ok, so in short you agree with the point I made that it's too early to claim that the 007 will be miles ahead of any existing camera from an image quality standpoint?
I share your view about the excellent S lenses line up (with a question mark on the image quality KPI relative to the Otus) and have never written anything else, only that the coversge was limited compared to existing options for top wedding photographers, that I did clearly not limit to the 2 Otus, since there many other excellent options, both technically and from a look standpoint.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8688/16409485323_cf69b504e9_o.jpg)
Cheers,
Bernard
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The S07 will be the Germanic version of the 645Z. IQ wise, only Leica lenses will have an Edge... till Pentax churn out more new HD lenses (only two for now like Otus line). So going into S007 will be for the lenses. So yes, Leica have a better lens panel and compatibility. But pentax is working on it :
¤ HD PENTAX-DA 645 28-45mm F4.5 ED AW SR
¤ HD D-FA 645 90mm f/2,8 ED AW SR
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Ok, so in short you agree with the point I made that it's too early to claim that the 007 will be miles ahead of any existing camera from an image quality standpoint?
Cheers,
Bernard
I suggest that you define (in your own terms) "image quality standpoint"... To me (and most) it is highly questionable what it means... From an artistic POV, best image quality is the one that achieves the photograph that has been visualized... for some others it means how sharp a picture is... for some more it means "have the job that pays done"... for others it means "how much detail can I see"? ...for more others it means "have fun"... for some more it means "lets have a subject to talk in forums"...
There is no such thing as "image quality standpoint" ...see? It's pure taste that has to do with the appearance of the printed thing on paper... at least this is what it is for photographers... see? It's photographers who believe that "fat pixel magic" of 9mμ CCD backs "have something", it's others that think 33mp Dalsa MFDBs have the most faithful and color accurate result, it's others that like to judge "photography" with how sharp the leafs (or the stones) are in a landscape, others that look on how much "weight" there is on the clouds and some that think of how much detail there's on the bride's dress... Then there others that look on how lighting works on their pictures, how communicative the subject is, how much drama is presented, how much meaning there is presented for the recipient to appreciate the work done...
Never the less there is no such thing as photography without a print... Why? ...Simply because a photograph is by definition the print and nothing but the print! Now Erick (or you or anybody) may think that MY D800E is better than MY CF-39MS and he may also think that cameras are competed by their pixel count... one may also think that lenses are compared with how sharp they are... but at the end, a photographer chooses what is important to him... and photographers do photography... which simply means create photographs... which means printed images on paper! ...see?
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"snip"
Yawn !
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I'm Napoleon !
I'm not sure that your doctor agrees, but since his suggestion is to answer "yes" to your symptoms, there is no other way but to agree... ;)
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Ok, so in short you agree with the point I made that it's too early to claim that the 007 will be miles ahead of any existing camera from an image quality standpoint?
Hi Bernard,
Yes I agree with you. I never made that claim you mention. We'll have to wait and see, is what I said. Though I see no reason to believe that the new S will disappoint.
I share your view about the excellent S lenses line up (with a question mark on the image quality KPI relative to the Otus) and have never written anything else, only that the coversge was limited compared to existing options for top wedding photographers, that I did clearly not limit to the 2 Otus, since there many other excellent options, both technically and from a look standpoint.
I absolutely agree that there are some excellent FF options out there. The probably soon upcoming Sony A9 and Canon 5Ds/sr will only make things better in FF-land for those who feel that FF is what/all they need. And Erik makes quite a few good points about the available lenses for 24x36. Indeed there are many good and useful lenses for that format, besides the two Otï.
Me, I'm happy with the results I get with my S2-P with S-glass. Yes, it's expensive compared to FF, and yes, a good 24x36 with a top dollar lenses can deliver images that are indistinguishable for most viewers.
Nevertheless, to me, the S system is worth it because in the past two years I can count on it to deliver, time and time again.
To each their own!
BTW, nice photo, thanks for sharing!
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AFAIK the Otuses have auto aperture.
Hi Erik, you're right of course. I'll correct my post, was thinking of Otus lenses on the Sony FE mount (spent too much time over at the FM alternative forum :) )
Again, from what I have seen, the Leica lenses are not fully corrected for axial chroma, that is they show fringing on out of focus areas while the two Otuses and the 135/2 APO don't have fringing.
I agree, especially the 70 mm can show some nasty axial chroma, especially wide open up to f5,6 in heavily back-lit tree branches and such. Luckily, most of it can be dealt with in Lr.
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Hi,
Thanks for sharing your comments!
I actually think the Otus would have automatic apertures on the A7x if used with a Metabones adapter, it even allows for AF. The Mirex adapter I am looking for allows T&S but has manual aperture, but it would work with my Hasselblad lenses.
Getting back to the Otuses I would believe that eliminating axial chroma is one of the main reason they are so expensive, the other reason is excellent performance at full aperture. Personally, I am interested in using something like 85 mm for short DoF type of work and an 85 mm lens with excellent performance at full aperture with no axial chroma is quite interesting.
The S (type 007) is not around yet, so I guess that we have nothing definitive about image quality. A qualified guess may be that it will be close to the S (type 006), but offer higher ISO and larger DR. Personally, I would prefer smaller pixels, as I am shooting at 3.8 microns on Sony Alpha 77 and I find that resolution a better match for the lenses I use than the 6 microns on my Sony Alpha 99 or the 6.8 microns on my P45+.
I think that the Leica S is a very fine camera, if one can afford it. But full frame 135 has some awesome sensor and some very good lenses matching those sensors at a much lower price. On the other hand, if perfection is sought and cost doesn't matter nothing beats MFD technical cameras with lenses designed for digital.
Now, cameras like the Leica S, Pentax 645Z and the Hasselblads may be good compromises, and a good compromise is not a bad thing.
I would assume that both Nikon and Sony follow Canon's lead into 50 MP pretty soon. To me those 50MP cameras paired with the best optics seem to be pretty competitive with the smaller MFD formats.
Best regards
Erik
Hi Erik, you're right of course. I'll correct my post, was thinking of Otus lenses on the Sony FE mount (spent too much time over at the FM alternative forum :) )
I agree, especially the 70 mm can show some nasty axial chroma, especially wide open up to f5,6 in heavily back-lit tree branches and such. Luckily, most of it can be dealt with in Lr.
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I don't think that the people in Leica consider pixel count as being an important factor for image quality, nor I believe that they consider DSLRs as threatening competition for the S-series. I don't think that possible customers will hesitate (or change their mind) to invest on the S-007 because of Canon's introduction.
In fact I believe that the 5Ds won't be a major success among professional photographers, I expect it to have some appeal on amateurs that think of pixel count as the most important feature on a camera, but one has to admit that highest available resolution for single shot cameras was "only" up to 39mp 7 years ago and photography hasn't improved at all since then...
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I don't think that the people in Leica consider pixel count as being an important factor for image quality, nor I believe that they consider DSLRs as threatening competition for the S-series. I don't think that possible customers will hesitate (or change their mind) to invest on the S-007 because of Canon's introduction.
In fact I believe that the 5Ds won't be a major success among professional photographers, I expect it to have some appeal on amateurs that think of pixel count as the most important feature on a camera, but one has to admit that highest available resolution for single shot cameras was "only" up to 39mp 7 years ago and photography hasn't improved at all since then...
Agreed and the same an be said about 22mp 10 years ago. In fact 22mp, 37 mp and 50mp for that matter, are not that different for real world applications. 150~ mp starts to reveal new things.
The quality of pixels, the tones that one can generate with them and the look of the image generated by the lens are clearly more important.
The S is definitely an appealing system mostly thanks to its lenses portfolio and the 007 should bring it on par with DSLR from a usability standpoint for landscape (live view). The availability of leaf shutter lenses is clearly a major plus for artificial light photography.
Now, for a bit less money I have just decided to buy a pretty nice car. I guess I'll have to make do with my pathetic DLSR a bit longer. ;)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7647/17029635065_805f890176_o.jpg)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Never the less there is no such thing as photography without a print... Why? ...Simply because a photograph is by definition the print and nothing but the print! ... photography... which simply means create photographs... which means printed images on paper!
Then it seems I have only produced half a dozen "photographs" in as many years, and the hundred of other images that I display on computer screens and share through other media are not photographs. What shall we call them then? "Photographics" perhaps?
I do agree that the end product of photography is something displayed, or at least which specifies with considerable precision what display should be produced from it: at a minimum, converted to a format like JPEG or TIFF with color space specified, or in a raw sensor output encoding format that is accompanied by a specification of how to convert for display, such a color specification and Bayer interpolation procedure.
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No referene to a photograph needing to be a print to be a defined as a photograph here , or in the OED. Personally, I hate looking at photographs on screen, but these days I'm in the minority.
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ΙΜΟ a digital file is a "captured (and processed) image" waiting to become a photo-graph... I believe that the word photo-graph it self, explains its meaning.... In consequence, I believe that photography is the art of creating photo-graphs...
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Hi Bernard,
That's an exceptionally nice image. Can you say how you took it?
Edmund
Agreed and the same an be said about 22mp 10 years ago. In fact 22mp, 37 mp and 50mp for that matter, are not that different for real world applications. 150~ mp starts to reveal new things.
The quality of pixels, the tones that one can generate with them and the look of the image generated by the lens are clearly more important.
The S is definitely an appealing system mostly thanks to its lenses portfolio and the 007 should bring it on par with DSLR from a usability standpoint for landscape (live view). The availability of leaf shutter lenses is clearly a major plus for artificial light photography.
Now, for a bit less money I have just decided to buy a pretty nice car. I guess I'll have to make do with my pathetic DLSR a bit longer. ;)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7647/17029635065_805f890176_o.jpg)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi Bernard,
That's an exceptionally nice image. Can you say how you took it?
Thanks Edmund, very kind of you.
The key component are of course luck (!!!), raw talent and vision (???), but if your question is about equipment, then it was shot in the field with a D750 and a manually focused 85mm f1.4 AF-S at f1.4 near its minimal focusing distance on an overcast day (the same lens your copy you didn't seem to like that much ;)). Conversion was done with C1 Pro 8.
Jokes aside, the key really is composition between focused and OoF areas in the image in terms of patterns, tones and colors. It's a bit hit and miss obviously because the lens with the sweetest bokeh will not be able to manage equally well all the frequencies of background/foreground objects depending on their size and distance. Here it works pretty well. A bit less well in the following images that are decent but probably lack some magic compared the first one IMHO:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7637/16822217707_1afbf60bc9_o.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7642/16409483343_5187451301_o.jpg)
I know this is nowhere near the quality a 007 would deliver...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard, yes, I agree the principal component seems to have been luck :) As they say it is better to be lucky than to be good.
Anyway, which 85/1.4 was it, the old or the new?
Edmund
Thanks Edmund, very kind of you.
The key component are of course luck (!!!), raw talent and vision (???), but if your question is about equipment, then it was shot in the field with a D750 and a manually focused 85mm f1.4 AF-S at f1.4 near its minimal focusing distance on an overcast day (the same lens your copy you didn't seem to like that much ;)). Conversion was done with C1 Pro 8.
Jokes aside, the key really is composition between focused and OoF areas in the image in terms of patterns, tones and colors. It's a bit hit and miss obviously because the lens with the sweetest bokeh will not be able to manage equally well all the frequencies of background/foreground objects depending on their size and distance. Here it works pretty well. A bit less well in the following images that are decent but probably lack some magic compared the first one IMHO:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7637/16822217707_1afbf60bc9_o.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7642/16409483343_5187451301_o.jpg)
I know this is nowhere near the quality a 007 would deliver...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard, yes, I agree the principal component seems to have been luck :) As they say it is better to be lucky than to be good.
Anyway, which 85/1.4 was it, the old or the new?
The new one, although I have had it for years now.
We should probably stop here before someone complains this isn't about the Leica. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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The new one, although I have had it for years now.
We should probably stop here before someone complains this isn't about the Leica. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
Yeah, a post that doesn't have Leica or Otus or D810 in it somewhere is not a real post ;)
BTW, why d'you own that low-rez body?
Edmund
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Why I show Imagery is simple. That's what I spend most of my life working on.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/moscow_leica.jpg)
IMO
BC
Unbelievable shots, especially the wide angle with piano. Just stunning....
Congrats.
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That later one with the girls and the piano is indeed a great image... Real art!
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Weren't you?
Anyway, constantly repeating this Otus on FF DSLR is the best/all you need and stitch story is beginning to sound like a broken record too.
pros and cons of Leica S lenses against the Zeiss Otus:
Cons:
-The Otus line offers faster lenses
Pros:
-Much more focal lengths in the Leica S lens line up available now. The Otus line only has 2 lenses available
-Leica S lenses offer weather sealing
-Leica S lenses offer auto focus
-Leica S lenses offer auto aperture (further up in this thread, Erik points out that the Otus lenses do have auto aperture on Canon and Nikon)
-Leica S lenses offer a larger image circle
I agree we'll have to wait and see what the new S brings.
Peter,don't forget the leaf shutters,which are a major bonus to anyone that shoots with flash,and two of the S lenses are APO,the 120 and 180!!
Rob
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You're absolutely right, Rob. I did mention that in two other threads about the subject, but forgot about it here. Two of my three S lenses have the CS. Being able to use 1/1000 with flash has saved me from motion blur very often, since I'm not very steady handholding the camera.
Cheers,
Peter