Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Bob_B on March 11, 2015, 11:22:44 am
-
I bought some 3/16" white self-adhesive gatorboard cut to 11x14 as an experiment, having never used this to mount prints. I noticed that these boards need some additional finishing to square them and finish the edges. (I'm not sure why the supplier didn't do this in the first place, but let's not go there.) Can I use a sanding block to finish the edges? What grit paper? At worst, there's maybe 1/16-1/8" of overhang that needs to be removed on a a few boards, and several boards have edges that I feel would benefit from better finishing to remove roughness.
Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. Thanks for your help!
Bob
-
often futzing with gatorboard edges takes one problem and makes it into another. a brand new blade and a single pas cut will be your best bet. I always try to get through gator on one swipe, it's the cleanest way. you can score and snap but there is always some weirdness left.
-
If you want a really clean even edge, better to oversize the print and include a white border of paper, mount and then trim to exact size cutting into the image area slightly. as mentioned a really sharp blade and good straight edge.
-
It's very easy to make clean cuts on prints adhesive mounted to Gator, as opposed to canvas on Gator which is much harder.
My best recommendation is to sacrifice a mounted scrap print and board to the cause of learning the trade. Just keep slicing. Education is always worth the price.
For medium to heavy weight papers, what works best for me is to rotate the knife very slightly in towards the print, make perhaps two gentle cuts to get through the paper, and then aggressively cut through the rest of the board. That should yield a smooth edge on both the foam and the back laminate. If you see fractures on the back laminate, take a few medium cuts instead of a single aggressive one.
The required skill is keeping the knife at the same angle for both gentle and aggressive cuts. It's all about knife control, and that's why one should practice. Virtuoso Gator cutters are known to practice several hours a day.
The purpose of the angle and the initial gentle cuts is to cut through the paper while generating the smallest possible burrs. The proper angle will place a large burr on the waste piece, and a relatively smaller burr on the print side. You can never quite lose a burr on the print side, but it can be gently burnished down by the smooth chrome rod of a screwdriver, smaller burrs are easier.
If thin, long shards of paper are generated from the cuts, it's because the knife position was changed for sequential cuts. That's the argument for a single aggressive cut, which will unfortunately generates a large burr on both sides of the cut and sometimes fractures the back edges of the Gator.
A cutting straight edge like this (http://www.cutting-mats.net/straightedges.html) is a must-have, IMHO. Those have wide, foam covered bases that can be safely placed over the most delicate prints. I've got two of those, and a table surface completely covered with an always present cutting matte that is a suitable surface for every type of the print and frame handling, and I laugh at rotary cutters.
-
.A cutting straight edge like this (http://www.cutting-mats.net/straightedges.html) is a must-have, IMHO. Those have wide, foam covered bases that can be safely placed over the most delicate prints. I've got two of those, and a table surface completely covered with an always present cutting matte that is a suitable surface for every type of the print and frame handling, and I laugh at rotary cutters.
Ahem to that, Brother Bill (lol). I accidentally sliced off part of my thumb last year (in a run-in with a kitchen mandoline), and since have great respect for anything that keeps my fingers (or other body parts) from blades. Also, thanks for your thoughts on rotary cutters. I had read a couple of articles that recommended them, but had some doubts. I'll stick to good ole cutting blades and change them often.
Bob
-
How about a matt cutter? I use my Logan to cut foamcore, but I've never cut gator with it.
How thick can you go with gator and still cut it nicely?
-
With a sharp blade supported rigidly as with matte cutters where the puck can not jump off the tracks, you can cleanly cut up to 1/2" Gator in a single swipe if the cutter is clamped to the table, and the table can not slide across the floor. Most wall mounted media cutters can do the same. There is, however, wisdom in taking at least 2 cuts for 1/2" Gator with a matte cutter, or 4+ cuts with a hand held knife.
Gator is basically a pussy cat except for its rigidity. If you can cut standard foam core you can cut Gator. OTOH, ragged cuts on Gator create razor sharp edges that like the taste of human blood. Have bandages ready when you cut your first sheets of Gator, and do not let those sheets slide while in your grip.
The problem with matte cutters as media slicers is that many can not take the 48" dimension of 48 x 96 sheet, so you need to rough cut with a knife and straightedge, or for the brave, free form knife scoring + snapping.
-
OTOH, ragged cuts on Gator create razor sharp edges that like the taste of human blood. Have bandages ready when you cut your first sheets of Gator, and do not let those sheets slide while in your grip.
I'll second that. The first time I cut Gator, I ran my fingers along that nice clean cut, just to see how clean it was. It is much worse than a paper cut.
Brian A
-
I'll 3rd on that one. I did the same as you to see if it was smooth...It was as smooth as my shaver. That thing can be made in to guillotine with little weight added.
-
A cutting straight edge like this is a must-have, IMHO. Those have wide, foam covered bases that can be safely placed over the most delicate prints.
Bill,
Nice find! Any idea what the "foam covered base" is made of? One of the things that is a continual challenge is to keep the ruler from slipping when cutting larger pieces.
-
Would something like this Logan 701-1 mat cutter be appropriate?
http://www.dickblick.com/products/logan-701-1-straight-cutter-elite/
If not, I'd appreciate some suggestions for mat cutters better suited to cutting gatorboard.
-
If you can, get a Fletcher 2k wall mount and be done with it. One of my fav tools. I had to make some changes in my workspace a couple years ago, and I sold mine, and now can surely use it again.
-
If you can, get a Fletcher 2k wall mount and be done with it. One of my fav tools. I had to make some changes in my workspace a couple years ago, and I sold mine, and now can surely use it again.
Nice idea, but way more than I need (or can afford) at the moment. Maybe someday...
-
Not really a solution here, but thought I'd mention.
I'm big on templates. I use them for cutting packaging materials, papers, foam, whatever. I use sheets of aluminum cut to whatever specific dimension, clamp it down on top of the material to be cut, somehow, and then just cut around the template.
-
Personally, I take more than one cut thru gatorboard. The harder you push to get thru it, the more likely you are to have the straight edge move.
The first cut should go thru the paper and the top layer of the GB. The next goes thru the foam and possibly thru the other side as well. A third cut can finish the other side if needed.
Here is what I use to smooth off the shards on the cut edge:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h216/framah/0267401_zpswnbwncdi.jpg) (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/framah/media/0267401_zpswnbwncdi.jpg.html)
A sheetrock sander.
-
After trying a variety of knife-based approaches, I now use a good table saw, followed by light application of a sanding block to feather the sharp edges.
It's a lot faster and more reliable than trying to use a knife on 1/2" gator.
-
Nice find! Any idea what the "foam covered base" is made of? One of the things that is a continual challenge is to keep the ruler from slipping when cutting larger pieces.
Dunno exactly, it's just black spongy foam about 2mm thick and it lasts for a really long time. Have not had to replace any in a few years. Less dense that weather stripping. The thickness makes it safe to place over prints, because even if there is some crud on the print or in the foam, it just pushes into the foam.
The wide base is big plus because you can safely clamp the straight edge over the art at the edge of the table with Irwin clamps (http://c.shld.net/rpx/i/s/i/spin/image/spin_prod_247615401?hei=624&wid=624&op_sharpen=1). Lowes has them 4 for $24 right now, in my local store. Very handy for those aggressive cuts, and also for fine trims. You can even use one of those Irwins to clamp a straightedge to a piece a piece of Gator hanging way off the end of the table, and make cuts just as good as if the Gator was supported from the back. We call those "air cuts" here, because that's what they are. I do that all the time to cut 8 foot pieces on my 6 foot work table. One learns to make do. Have never had issues with dents on the backside of the Gator, even with a fairly aggressive clamp pressure.
I use at least one Irwin clamp on almost every cut, clamping one end of the straightedge to the edge of the table, then letting the excess length of the straightedge overhang past the art on the other, held down by its own weight. Make the cut from the overhang end to the clamped end. Longer Irwin clamp posts make great spindles for wire reels.
-
I want to express my thanks and gratitude to everyone who responded with advice to my question. I learned a lot, and have a good idea on how to proceed. Thanks! - Bob
-
Dunno exactly, it's just black spongy foam about 2mm thick
Thanks, Bill. I’ve used some 4” C clamps to clamp the underside of the media (I use mighty core rather than gator) to a fairly rigid 12”x12” square underlayment that supports the media for the air cut you mentioned. I had problems with a slight crease developing under the 2” wide ruler unless the clamp was so light that it didn’t do bubkis to restrict the movement of the ruler. The Irwin clamps are a good buy but would not do any better than the C clamps in this instance. The wider straight edges you referenced above ( http://www.cutting-mats.net/straightedges.html ) could make a difference, but it’s also likely that the non-skid surface is the trick.
Anywho, because I’m thrifty by nature, I’ll find something to put on the underside of the ruler to give it some anti-skid results and see if that works. In the mean time I found that making a shorter cut of ~ 10” with my hand on the ruler right next to the area being cut, along with a substantial amount of downward force applied to the ruler produces excellent results. Most of the time. Naturally, this solution gets a bit tedious when cutting multiple long sections.
A little research shows there are a some adhesive tapes with good non-slip properties, with the 3M brand TB400 being what appears to be a good choice. I’m gonna snag a roll and see how it works
-
Bob, I may have accidentally stumbled into one solution to the gator board issue. I had to mount a show of 50+ images and since I do not like to see my own blood, and am a sucker for hype and promotional prices, I got a Logan T300 Total Trimmer, which I was promised would slice through gator board. Not. I sliced through a few pieces of 1/2" board and then stripped something in the cutting head and had to order a new cutting block from Logan. The details are here, with images:
http://www.amazon.com/Logan-T300-Total-Trimmer-40-Inch/dp/B003A00YUS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1426318717&sr=8-1&keywords=Logan+T300+Total+Trimmer
If the link does not function, search for the Logan T300 Total Trimmer on Amazon and look for my one-star review, with images of my modification, which cost me $100 at a local machine shop. The thing now slices through 1/2" gator like butter, with absolutely straight edges. If there were such a thing as one-inch gator, it would do fine.
I communicated with the support person at Logan to ask why they had not spent an extra $.10 per trimmer to make it function properly. He said he would pass my comments along to their development team.
-
The thing now slices through 1/2" gator like butter, with absolutely straight edges. If there were such a thing as one-inch gator, it would do fine.
Single pass?
-
Yes - single pass. The "like butter" comparison is bit of an exaggeration. I need to press the tension bar down with some force to hold the gator in place, and use some elbow grease to pull the blade across. I change blades fairly often. But the cuts are perfect - every time.
-
Jan;
Do you make the single pass cut with the print already mounted in top or below the gatorboard?
-
Iʻve been wary of denting the surface of the print, so I cut the gator board down to size first before adhering the print - usually 16X20, sometimes 16X40. I make the print slightly larger than the trimmed gator, stick it to the board (a whole other can of worms) and then turn the print and gator around so that only the excess paper is in the trimmer, print side up, and the gator abutting the side edge of the trimmer. As I mention in the Amazon review, it is necessary to put a strip of something along the edge, to account for the slight distance between edge and blade. I also put some gator scraps under the mounted print, to hold it even with the trimmer surface. No need to use the tension bar to hold down the paper - I just push hard against the gator to hold it steady while I am trimming off the paper. If you get the spacing just right, the trimmer takes off the excess paper exactly to the edge of the gator. I ruined some prints figuring this out, as you can imagine, but when it is set up correctly, it works well. Hope that is not all TMI.
Still working on various kinks that crop up in other parts of the process, like acrylic coating ...
-
FWIW, prints coated with solvent based coatings like Premier Art Print Shield and the Hahnemuehle spray, etc cut much cleaner and burnish down better than water acrylic coated prints. The same is true for prints that are adhesive mounted versus glue mounted. The solvent coatings are thinner and much better bonded to the print and each other.
Of course solvents sprays smell awful, annoy the neighbors/neighbours, and quickly reduce one's brain to an oozing mass of pink sludge.
I know somebody who loads up his car with prints, drives to a place downwind from the nearest houses, and sprays solvent there using a painter's easel for support if it's not windy. No that's not me. The good news is that with solvent coatings it's trivial to swipe off overpainted dirt between coats including the last one, and solvent dries in about 2 minutes per coat.
-
Came across this fairly new addition to the Fletcher-Terry line up which will cut up to 1/2” media
http://www.fletcherviscom.com/all-products/Table%20Top%20Cutters/F-60%20-%20Semi-rigid%20%7C%20Flexible%20Cutter
Cost is ~ $700 + ~ $225 for a wall mount kit, if desired.
-
Cost is ~ $700 + ~ $225 for a wall mount kit, if desired.
As it pertains to this thread, cutting gatorboard, there's consensus in changing the blade often to obtain acceptable cut quality. Any idea what a 10 pack of blades will cost? - Jim
-
Here's another interesting, cheap wall cutter. But no aluminum panel cutter, and if you watch the video it cuts PVC only in a roundabout way. But it seems suitable for classic framing chores. Uses standard utility knife blades. No, I don't own one. But I have seen one on the net. The
slightly more expensive Keencut wall cutters are probably a better choice for the likes of us.
http://framingsupplies.com/Onyx90/Onyx90WallMountedMediaCutter.htm
Don't watch the installation video if you are susceptible to hypnosis, it's weird.
-
and quickly reduce one's brain to an oozing mass of pink sludge.
Ah. That explains it. :) :) :)
-
^It's not really that big of a problem, as long as one remembers to put corks in one's ears and nostrils for a few hours after spraying.
-
As it pertains to this thread, cutting gatorboard, there's consensus in changing the blade often to obtain acceptable cut quality. Any idea what a 10 pack of blades will cost? - Jim
Do you mean blades for the wall cutter above? I dunno. Iirc F-T sells most of their utility blades in quantities of 100 per box for ~ $20-$40 depending on where you find them. Ebay is always a good first place to look. I bought a bunch of boxes several years ago for my 2 F-T cutters and haven’t had a need since.
On a related topic, the F-T 05-004 blade is a thinner and a little shorter than a typical Stanley issue utility blade, but fits most standard handles. It is a delight to use compared to standard blades. The thinner cross section permits it to cut much easier. Once you use one you’ll wonder what is wrong with standard blades. They also seem to last longer, but that may be because they have less drag and that is the detail i use as a telltale sign that its time to flip or replace the blade.
-
I just google "Foam tape" and the search returned a lot of hits, home depot has them, also many sizes and widts listed in the gringer catalog.
Looks like the soft side on self adhesive roll of wide velcro straps could be a good soft cover for the bottom of a cutting edge to be placed on a print surface.
-
Do you mean blades for the wall cutter above? I dunno. Iirc F-T sells most of their utility blades in quantities of 100 per box for ~ $20-$40 depending on where you find them. Ebay is always a good first place to look.
The link that you posted shows that the Fletcher F-60 cutter needs special blade cartridges that are sold in boxes of 10. To me they look specialized and expensive. That's why I asked if you knew the price. You did have pricing for the unit itself and also the wall mount accessory so I thought you might know about the blades, too. I checked eBay and they have that cutter but not it's blades. Thanks. - Jim
-
Quick update: I practiced cutting and trimming 3/16" gatorboard over the last couple of days. I don't have a wall-mounted mat cutter, and use a straight-edge ruler and mat cutters. The first thing I found was that the Logan 701 cutter (straight cuts, designed for their cutting systems) wouldn't cut a straight line when using a straight edge ruler; the blade wandered despite my best attempts. This may be due to my inexperience, but I just couldn't get satisfactory cuts on gatorboard (mat board was no problem). What worked pretty well was a simple mat cutter (I forget the model #, but just a good old fashion cutting knife and fresh blade). This required 3 or 4 cuts, but 95% resulted in a clean straight cut.
I had a couple of questions and problems. First one small problem: I am using gator with self-adhesive backing. I found that the backing comes off the gatorboard rather easily when I was trying to remove the paper covering the adhesive. Any thoughts on preventing this?
Second, a question: I am coating with Premier print spray for durability and UV protection, and spray _after_ mounting. In another thread, I got the impression most people spray prints before mounting. Is this correct?
Today, I am going to fool around with sanding some of the edges of prints mounted on gatorboard. (I noticed after the fact that a couple of my gatorboard edges show a bit more than I'd like, hence the additional work.)
Bob
-
The link that you posted shows that the Fletcher F-60 cutter needs special blade cartridges that are sold in boxes of 10. To me they look specialized and expensive. That's why I asked if you knew the price. You did have pricing for the unit itself and also the wall mount accessory so I thought you might know about the blades, too. I checked eBay and they have that cutter but not it's blades. Thanks. - Jim
After your message I went to the f-t site and found the blade is an assembly for this and it is their part # 05-235 at $28 per 10 pack. This is a departure from their typical approach for this kind of thing. In their way, they appear to be following the lead of inkjet printer manufacturers where the printer is a “socket” to which an endless number of ink carts are inserted.
-
I just google "Foam tape" and the search returned a lot of hits, home depot has them, also many sizes and widts listed in the gringer catalog.
Looks like the soft side on self adhesive roll of wide velcro straps could be a good soft cover for the bottom of a cutting edge to be placed on a print surface.
There are a lot of good prospects. If you search for “grippy tape roll” you will find even more.
I contacted U-line and they suggested a sample of foam tape they have with adhesive on one side. I said sure. They sent me 2 2” x 36 yard rolls of double sided foam tape strong enough to permanently stick a 747 to concrete by it’s tires and then hang it upside down. Impressively grippy, but not quite what I was after so I’ll see if they want them back.
-
Quick update: I practiced cutting and trimming 3/16" gatorboard over the last couple of days. I don't have a wall-mounted mat cutter, and use a straight-edge ruler and mat cutters. The first thing I found was that the Logan 701 cutter (straight cuts, designed for their cutting systems) wouldn't cut a straight line when using a straight edge ruler; the blade wandered despite my best attempts. This may be due to my inexperience, but I just couldn't get satisfactory cuts on gatorboard (mat board was no problem).
Possibly a flaw in the design or maybe too much pressure being applied during the cut?
What worked pretty well was a simple mat cutter (I forget the model #, but just a good old fashion cutting knife and fresh blade). This required 3 or 4 cuts, but 95% resulted in a clean straight cut.
^That is what most do eventually. A ~2" wide straight edge steel or aluminum ruler that's about 1/16" thick helps a lot. Watch where you place your thumb and fingers and remember rule #1 is to not bleed on the art work :)
I had a couple of questions and problems. First one small problem: I am using gator with self-adhesive backing. I found that the backing comes off the gatorboard rather easily when I was trying to remove the paper covering the adhesive. Any thoughts on preventing this?
That's a common problem for this kind of media. Try using the knife blade to get between the paper and adhesive to help lift it from the adhesive.
Second, a question: I am coating with Premier print spray for durability and UV protection, and spray _after_ mounting. In another thread, I got the impression most people spray prints before mounting. Is this correct?
Yes to spray before mounting.
Today, I am going to fool around with sanding some of the edges of prints mounted on gatorboard. (I noticed after the fact that a couple of my gatorboard edges show a bit more than I'd like, hence the additional work.)
Another option is to think about cutting a beveled edge for the matt board. Of course, you'll need a matt cutter or someone who has one, to do this with the most consistency.
Another possibility is to use some 8 ply matt paper. The edges of gator are not really designed for show purposes.
-
Follow-up --
So, I mounted four 11x14 prints on 11x14 gatorboard over the last week. Overall, I was pretty happy with the results. They weren't up to "gallery" standards, but were good enough to give as housewarming gifts that were appreciated. I found in this process that the 11x14 gatorboard required quite a bit of work to square it and remove rough and/or curved edges. As a consequence, my 11x14 prints shrank a bit; something I didn't want.
With this in mind, for future prints it seems that I should buy gatorboard at least a few inches larger than the print I wish to mount, and then cut the board to fit the print. Is this common practice? If not, please offer some alternatives.
Thank you for your replies.
Bob