Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Jeff Grant on February 18, 2015, 09:57:38 pm
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Over the years I have seen many images described as fine art. Lots of competitions have fine art categories, but that seems to equate to weird many times. There are also many people printing who call themselves fine art printers. Some claim to have special tools, others claim years of experience but I have never been able to see or read what it is that makes the 'fine art' tag applicable.
I'm not trying to start any sort of troll, I'm just interested in what is behind the tag.
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To quote Bierce: "DISCUSSION, n. A method of confirming others in their errors. "
Google "fine art definition" and you will get there faster than the above route.
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David,
I know what it is. I'd like to know how one can reach the position, and know that they have.
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It is really a 'fine art quality' printer. In other words a printer capable of printing fine art. In a similar way to fine art pigment oils or acrylics, it doesn't mean you are going to create fine art.
Brian A
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So it is a person who can produce an aesthetically pleasing print. Here's a Wiki definition: In Western European academic traditions, fine art is art developed primarily for aesthetics, distinguishing it from applied art that also has to serve some practical function.
Given the tools that are readily available today, so we can all produce excellent profiles on excellent papers and print with excellent printers. Is it someone who can make a better print? If so how would they do it, and how would they know? Maybe we are all fine art printers already.
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Fine art is what's left over when you have eliminated all the medium and coarse art.
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I sometimes describe myself as a fine art photographer, not because I want to claim that I am an Artist (with a capital "A"), but rather to indicate what I am not: wedding, sports, passport, forensic, etc. photographer. By the same token, I assume "fine art" printer means not business card, flyer, brochure, etc. printer. That's my pragmatic point of view. I have no doubts some will correct me with a loftier definition :)
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What defines a fine art printer?
Focus. Doing that and just that.
When someone says he is a fine art printer I expect the following:
1) He only prints art. No "express printing service", no banners, no advertisement pieces. Just art.
2) He does that for living, it's not a hobby.
3) He uses the best equipment, inks and paper to deliver the best image quality and the longevity expected when producing a piece of art.
4) He is versed in art and has the ability to understand the expectations of his clients and helps them to achieve their goals.
That is just the minimum to be called a fine art printer IMHO.
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I have a bad feeling about where this will head, but I'll attempt an opinion.
Slobodan's and Geraldo's answers are as good as any.
I began with a cheap Epson multi-function printer which I profiled for papers that interested me and used long sheets cut from rolls to overcome the A4 limitation. I'm still pleased with some of those prints, I just can't let sunlight get to them as the ink is fugitive.
If you live in a place that has good galleries you can look at prints from the inception of photography onwards, and create your own language to describe what you see and what is fine about the image. If you get stuck then collar a staff member, back them into a corner and ask them to explain.
Once you have your own words to describe what you see then ask if you have realised in print what was in your mind's eye. If you haven't got an idea of what you want to see then print more and visit more galleries. Form a small print group and meet once a month to discuss your prints or find a few people whose opinion you trust and show them your work regularly until you know.
I know some very good photographers who carefully profile their papers and have the best monitors and printers they can get (and KNOW HOW TO USE THEM) in order to make their workflow easier.
I know of others who say that while it's nice to know that the nozzles are working and so on, the idea that we are in control and can predict an outcome is totally counter to a creative process and that working artists have to figure stuff out, they need a visceral response to to things that are visual and work out how to realise it and screw the colour space and the profiles. To quote Renior: "Recipes are for slaves".
I don't think your question is clear. Are you wondering if your bits of ink on a piece of paper are as technically good as someone else's bits of ink on paper? Or are you wondering about the "art" bit? My suggestion to the former is put your work out into the world. And for the latter answer the question whether your motive has been made real or have you wobbled about.
David
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Slobodan and Geraldo, thanks. That helps me and ties in with the definition that I posted.
David, You are not alone. I wondered where it would go myself. I think that anyone printing who doesn't worry about nozzles has a hard road ahead. I'm not wondering whether my work is a good as anyone else's, and I do try to get my work seen by others. I'm happy with the prints that I make.
I really did ask the question in all innocence. I see many people describing themselves as fine art printers. I asked the question in the hope that I may get an understanding of what it really means. So far, I've got a good idea from the responses. Not surprisingly, if I go back and look at some of the claimants, I suspect that they may not qualify.
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I must say that I do f***ing like the f***ing idea of being a c*******ing, m*********ing coarse f***ing artist, you b******s!
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:D :D I see what you did there Bill... ::)
"Coarse"
adjective, coarser, coarsest.
1.composed of relatively large parts or particles:
The beach had rough, coarse sand.
2.lacking in fineness or delicacy of texture, structure, etc.:
The stiff, coarse fabric irritated her skin.
3.harsh; grating.
4.lacking delicacy, taste, or refinement; unpolished:
He had coarse manners but an absolutely first-rate mind.
5.of inferior or faulty quality; common; base.
6.vulgar; obscene; crude:
His coarse language angered us.
7.(of metals) unrefined.
8.(of a metal file) having the maximum commercial grade of coarseness.
Origin
1550-1560
1550-60; earlier cors(e), course, cowarce; of obscure origin
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I call myself a fine art printer and until someone can say "No you're not because..." then I'm sticking to it. When someone defines the "because..." then you'll have your answer. Or, like Bill T. said, you can refer to it like sandpaper. e.g. "I produce 100 to 120 grit art." ;D
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You don't make fine art prints unless your art gallery calls them "Giclee's" ;D
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Over the years I have seen many images described as fine art. Lots of competitions have fine art categories, but that seems to equate to weird many times. There are also many people printing who call themselves fine art printers. Some claim to have special tools, others claim years of experience but I have never been able to see or read what it is that makes the 'fine art' tag applicable.
Fine art printers wear berets.
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Fine art printers wear berets.
Oui!
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One of Andy Warhol's often repeated quotes is that "Art is whatever you can get away with."
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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I call myself an fine art printer. I use this to differentiate myself from other printing firms or printing studios. i go for the best possible quality prints, offer a large suite of papers, and flexibility to seamlessly connect with photogs and digital artists. Regarding the quality of prints i seek the maximum quality, of which sense of depth is a key one. Bottom line: a print must result in a " physical experience" of getting drawn into the image and get all kinds of associations .This is the connection with fine-art. As Fine-Art at the end of the day is about experiencing whatever the artist is aiming at.
As Fine Art printer i thus complement the artist in the last phase: from a digital master pice to a physical master piece, to achieve the "WOOW" from the customer.
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Over the years I have seen many images described as fine art. Lots of competitions have fine art categories, but that seems to equate to weird many times. There are also many people printing who call themselves fine art printers. Some claim to have special tools, others claim years of experience but I have never been able to see or read what it is that makes the 'fine art' tag applicable.
I'm not trying to start any sort of troll, I'm just interested in what is behind the tag.
It's marketing language to distinguish from other types of more commercial printing. Typically it is intended to convey that the printer (and customers) are interested in quality and uniqueness instead of quantity and price.
Since this is a photography forum, it is important to understand that photography has always been separated from art. Art was considered an act of creation from the mind while photography was technical capture from the real world. Even though 2 photographers could capture the same view and end up with very different looking prints, photographers were never really considered artists. This gave photographers an inferiority complex and so was born Fine Art Photography.
Some people will say that it has to do with the materials used (must use cotton rag matte paper), the techniques, the tools (must use the best equipment) etc. Some might even say it deals with the output quantity. Print an item once and it is fine art. Let the printer run and print 500 and it is commercial printing.
Slobadon was on to something when he says he is a fine art photographer. Most photography has a purpose: Wedding, journalism, advertising, etc. I consider fine art photography to be that photography which exists solely because of the artistic beauty it embodies. If we extend that to the printer, then a fine art printer is someone that makes printed pieces that exist merely for the purpose of expressing artistic vision.
I have two 12 x 20 images hanging in my house that are from the same raw file. One is a photographic representation and the other an HDR impression. While very different, they both have their own artistic qualities. Both have some of ME in them, but the HDR has more of ME. Is one Fine Art and the other not? Is neither Fine Art because of the material they are printed on or the printer that was used or the software tools employed? Does one need a credential from some organization to be considered a Fine Art Printer?
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It's marketing language to distinguish from other types of more commercial printing. Typically it is intended to convey that the printer (and customers) are interested in quality and uniqueness instead of quantity and price.
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Does one need a credential from some organization to be considered a Fine Art Printer?
I would agree it’s mostly a marketing term. Since there are no credentials, certification or licensing required, defining “fine art printer” is subjective and impossible. To label a person as a fine art printer means in some regard that person possess some specialized skill and knowledge as well as equipment and supplies to produce prints in a particular way that somehow meets the criteria of being fine art quality. But that level of expertise can be wildly varied. For example while I consider that I have those skills and can produce a very high quality print that possesses the qualities of a “fine art print”, I have observed and worked with others who I feel possess skills vastly superior to mine. A few that come to mind are Jeff Schewe, Dan Steinhardt, Mac Holbert, and Ctein.
Certainly many others have those skills, and many facilities are more than capable of producing multiple levels of quality which include this type of printing. The fact that I’m also considered by some to be an “expert” at high volume photographic production doesn’t preclude that I also have the knowledge, skills and facility to produce a print that has the qualities of a fine art print.
The question might be to define what is a “fine art print” ... once you define that I would assume a fine art printer is one capable of producing a print that meets that definition.
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"Fine art" is too ambiguous to be useful, except when making price tags and for wasting words. At an art opening somebody put gold star stickers on some of my price tags. That I can understand. I make Gold Star Art and here's exactly what that means. And BTW my prints are really good, but I hope it's the image you find attractive.
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Thanks one and all. It's hard to beat getting good information with a little comedy for free.
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Fine Art
What you see is what you get.
What you say is what you get.
Finally, what you do, is what you do.
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If your able to sell it, it's Fine Art.
If you can't sell it, it's Bad Art.
If you don't try to sell it, it's Your Art.
Ken
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^^^
Ha! Excellent!
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If your able to sell it, it's Fine Art.
If you can't sell it, it's Bad Art.
If you don't try to sell it, it's Your Art.
Ken
Really? (https://www.google.com/search?q=Vincent+Van+Gogh's+paintings&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=JF7nVKHmNcG1ggSSq4DoCA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1504&bih=1285)
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Really? (https://www.google.com/search?q=Vincent+Van+Gogh's+paintings&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=JF7nVKHmNcG1ggSSq4DoCA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1504&bih=1285)
Well, at least in the same historic moment. With the passage of time, Bad Art might turn into Fine Art, as your Van Gough example shows. Even Your Art might turn into Fine Art (e.g., Vivian Maier).
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... In short...
Really (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=97993.msg801505#msg801505)?
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The bad thing is that you need to cease to exist before the greatness of your work is acknowledged.
Best regards
Erik
Well, at least in the same historic moment. With the passage of time, Bad Art might turn into Fine Art, as your Van Gough example shows. Even Your Art might turn into Fine Art (e.g., Vivian Maier).
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The bad thing is that you need to cease to exist before the greatness of your work is acknowledged.
Best regards
Erik
That's what I'm counting on because the greatness of my work is currently only appreciated by me! ;D
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Besides owning a fine art capable printer, I would think a fine art printer, at least I expect a good one, to have sourced out some papers or media type that he/she has mastered with the set of inks used to a point that there is a noticeable improvement using the profiles and methods when compared to default output papers and methods. A printer that is not afraid to print over a few(after the thousands initially) times if the result is not that extra edge. Someone who has seen his standards in practice so much to a point that he/she can "read" the image colors and contrast to know what to push to give it that extra edge of difference.
Otherwise I think Andy Warhal is sadly right.
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Phil what you say is so true. Many can buy a good inkjet printer. Few go for the effort to maximise the printresult for each paper they offer.
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Hi, I could live with that definition…
Best regards
Erik
What defines a fine art printer?
Focus. Doing that and just that.
When someone says he is a fine art printer I expect the following:
1) He only prints art. No "express printing service", no banners, no advertisement pieces. Just art.
2) He does that for living, it's not a hobby.
3) He uses the best equipment, inks and paper to deliver the best image quality and the longevity expected when producing a piece of art.
4) He is versed in art and has the ability to understand the expectations of his clients and helps them to achieve their goals.
That is just the minimum to be called a fine art printer IMHO.
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What defines a fine art printer?
Focus. Doing that and just that.
When someone says he is a fine art printer I expect the following:
1) He only prints art. No "express printing service", no banners, no advertisement pieces. Just art.
2) He does that for living, it's not a hobby.
3) He uses the best equipment, inks and paper to deliver the best image quality and the longevity expected when producing a piece of art.
4) He is versed in art and has the ability to understand the expectations of his clients and helps them to achieve their goals.
That is just the minimum to be called a fine art printer IMHO.
I agree as it being the minimum requirement....
And I agree with at least two of the four on the list :-) I'm a little more giving on #1, and maybe #2.
This last bit is not in relation to what I personally do...Just to be clear for those wondering the perspective of the opinions given.
I don't consider myself a "consistent fine art printer", as I still make a good amount of mediocre prints I often end up trashing :-)
I still strive for that print that will get me outside and light up a cigar.
I can see a possible situation that contradicts my exception to Geraldo's #2....
If a photographer is doing the printing, it introduces a variable of the different images they work with.
This can force the printographer (my coined term: defined as someone who envisions a "great print" while taking the photograph) to select another image before seeing the potential of the first.
While a dedicated printer has only the client image. So the time the printer takes in that image maybe more dedication to one image over a very large pool of images.
This of course is not a set likelihood, but a possible situation worth mentioning to illustrate the difficulties involved in making a fine art print.
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What defines a fine art printer?
Focus. Doing that and just that.
When someone says he is a fine art printer I expect the following:
1) He only prints art. No "express printing service", no banners, no advertisement pieces. Just art.
2) He does that for living, it's not a hobby.
3) He uses the best equipment, inks and paper to deliver the best image quality and the longevity expected when producing a piece of art.
4) He is versed in art and has the ability to understand the expectations of his clients and helps them to achieve their goals.
That is just the minimum to be called a fine art printer IMHO.
Goddammit, I always knew I should stop printing all these lousy posters, roll-ups, wallpapers etc. on my mighty Canon iPF :D ;)
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Goddammit, I always knew I should stop printing all these lousy posters, roll-ups, wallpapers etc. on my mighty Canon iPF :D ;)
yeah, who cares about paying the rent ... ;)
I don’t think 1 and 2 factor in at all.
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Goddammit, I always knew I should stop printing all these lousy posters, roll-ups, wallpapers etc. on my mighty Canon iPF :D ;)
Guys,
Don't get me wrong. I never said an amateur printer or an artist who prints his own work or a general (mixed type) printer would not be able to print in a competent way. Actually if he is skilled he will probably make better prints than a fresh "fine art printer".
I just said that when I hear "fine art printer" I expect those four things. Same thing with other professions like, for instance, photographers. There are some excellent amateur photographers or out there, many producing much better images than some pros, but when someone says "photographer" I expect a professional photographer.
To my eye a printer is someone who does that for living. A fine art printer is someone who prints "fine art" for living. If it is a hobby the word "amateur" should come first. If printing art is only a small part of his job he should not name his craft after it. If he is an artist who only print his own work... well, if that is the case calling himself "printer" or "fine art printer" is a stupid understatement because he is producing his art from start to finish and that is way more relevant (and cooler) than being just a printer.
That is just how I see things.
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I'm glad that I didn't ask what defines a fine art photographer: http://petapixel.com/2015/02/22/photographer-peter-lik-has-sold-nearly-half-a-billion-dollars-in-prints/
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This has been one of the best threads I've read in a while. ;)
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What defines a fine art printer?
Focus. Doing that and just that.
When someone says he is a fine art printer I expect the following:
1) He only prints art. No "express printing service", no banners, no advertisement pieces. Just art.
2) He does that for living, it's not a hobby.
3) He uses the best equipment, inks and paper to deliver the best image quality and the longevity expected when producing a piece of art.
4) He is versed in art and has the ability to understand the expectations of his clients and helps them to achieve their goals.
That is just the minimum to be called a fine art printer IMHO.
Well so far that sounds a lot like me.
I would add that a fine art printmaker is capable of making a reproduction that is very difficult to differentiate from the original with respect to giclee.
He should also have some industry recognition and would have no problem seeing prints selling for thousands.
He would understand that there is no Swiss army knife printer as different medias require different approaches.
He would be the consummate ICC profile guru and profile tweeker.
He would be bald or greying from the hair ripping rite of passage.
He could make canvas, photo paper or art paper ROCK!
He would love dye ink.
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I am coming into this late but what are we talking about here? A "printer" being a machine that prints, or a "printer" being a person who operates a machine that prints. To me neither produces fine art. You give them a file, tell them the paper and profile (it is a given that they understand this or you have the wrong printer), and they produce a predictable output.
The "fine art" bit comes from the fine art photographer who puts the emotion into the "art".
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I am coming into this late but what are we talking about here? A "printer" being a machine that prints, or a "printer" being a person who operates a machine that prints. To me neither produces fine art. You give them a file, tell them the paper and profile (it is a given that they understand this or you have the wrong printer), and they produce a predictable output.
The "fine art" bit comes from the fine art photographer who puts the emotion into the "art".
You are clearly defining a mass market print shop.
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What helps sell one famous photographer's work is the tall, blond, Swedish female backpacker shop assistants.
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where can I get one?
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You are clearly defining a mass market print shop.
You are clearly not a fine art photographer.
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I am coming into this late but what are we talking about here? A "printer" being a machine that prints, or a "printer" being a person who operates a machine that prints. To me neither produces fine art. You give them a file, tell them the paper and profile (it is a given that they understand this or you have the wrong printer), and they produce a predictable output.
The "fine art" bit comes from the fine art photographer who puts the emotion into the "art".
Bob, your last statement " The "fine art" bit comes from the fine art photographer who puts the emotion into the "art". " is excactly where the role is of a Fine Art Printmaker (capable person using a printer (machine)) comes into play!
To make sure this "emotion" comes across in the print. In addition it adds this physical experience (total immersion ultimately) to the image (photog's art) inside the digital file. In other words a seamless extension to the art producing process of the photog (or graphics artist) from a digital masterpiece to a printed masterpiece. Bottom line: it is about the emotion being invoked.
That differentiates a fine art printing specialist, like i am, from printshops that just print.
Note that i am not disqualifying such printshops, nor that i am saying that all photo's or illustrations are art.
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Hi,
In my view, a fine art printer:
- Has a lot of exprience
- Has deep knowledge of substrates and inks
- Has properly adjusted process and uses correct profiles
- Can advice the customer and has feel for customer's needs
I don't think it is necessary that the printer just works on fine art.
I have great respect for printers who share their experience. Many posters here do it, Ernst Dinkla, Geraldo Garcia and Wayne Fox come to my mind…
Best regards
Erik
Bob, your last statement " The "fine art" bit comes from the fine art photographer who puts the emotion into the "art". " is excactly where the role is of a Fine Art Printmaker (capable person using a printer (machine)) comes into play!
To make sure this "emotion" comes across in the print. In addition it adds this physical experience (total immersion ultimately) to the image (photog's art) inside the digital file. In other words a seamless extension to the art producing process of the photog (or graphics artist) from a digital masterpiece to a printed masterpiece. Bottom line: it is about the emotion being invoked.
That differentiates a fine art printing specialist, like i am, from printshops that just print.
Note that i am not disqualifying such printshops, nor that i am saying that all photo's or illustrations are art.
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Bob, your last statement " The "fine art" bit comes from the fine art photographer who puts the emotion into the "art". " is excactly where the role is of a Fine Art Printmaker (capable person using a printer (machine)) comes into play!
The quality of the printer (human and machine) in the printing process, is not disputed. it is a science. As such it is predictable. The need to accurately convert a file given to them and print that file is however a process.
The making of that file was the art.
Some photographers give a printer person a less than perfect file and say to fix it. In that case the printer person is doing some of the art. That may be OK in a professional situation but the printer person is performing a different function to "printer person".
I photograph and print my own work.
The output of the fine art photography part is a file.
Any one could drag that file onto the RIP and select the custom made profile that I have for that SPECIFIC printer and paper and it would come out the same way. No art involved.
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The quality of the printer (human and machine) in the printing process, is not disputed. it is a science. As such it is predictable. The need to accurately convert a file given to them and print that file is however a process.
The making of that file was the art.
Some photographers give a printer person a less than perfect file and say to fix it. In that case the printer person is doing some of the art. That may be OK in a professional situation but the printer person is performing a different function to "printer person".
I photograph and print my own work.
The output of the fine art photography part is a file.
Any one could drag that file onto the RIP and select the custom made profile that I have for that SPECIFIC printer and paper and it would come out the same way. No art involved.
And that is why you are failing to understand. What you describe is what I call a "commercial printer". He may be an outstanding professional and extremely competent, but he simply prints the files he receives.
Unfortunately, as you surely knows, a file viewed on screen will never be exactly translated to a printed image. The differences may be negligible or monstrous and the causes are many (monitor/paper profiles, image gamut, paper/printer gamut, surface texture and glossiness and many other).
What you do not realize, probably because you do your own printing and everything is clearly under your responsibility, is that most artists (photographers, digital artists, painters...) have no way to know the characteristics and limitations of the printed outcome beforehand and it goes way deeper than simply downloading a profile performing a softproof. The "commercial fine art printer" is someone (at least in my book) who not only understands the technicalities of the printing process, but is versed in art and is able to understand the expectations of the clients and can give them some advice on how to better translate their expectations into reality. It may sound simple, but actually is extremely difficult and time consuming. Some artists may be extremely open and flexible while others are adamant on unrealistic demands. The (so called) "commercial fine art printer" must be part printer, part artist, part teacher and part psychoanalyst. :D
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What you do not realize, probably because you do your own printing and everything is clearly under your responsibility, is that most artists (photographers, digital artists, painters...) have no way to know the characteristics and limitations of the printed outcome beforehand and it goes way deeper than simply downloading a profile performing a softproof. The "commercial fine art printer" is someone (at least in my book) who not only understands the technicalities of the printing process, but is versed in art and is able to understand the expectations of the clients and can give them some advice on how to better translate their expectations into reality. It may sound simple, but actually is extremely difficult and time consuming. Some artists may be extremely open and flexible while others are adamant on unrealistic demands. The (so called) "commercial fine art printer" must be part printer, part artist, part teacher and part psychoanalyst. :D
I think we agree. Note that I said a "custom made profile for that SPECIFIC printer (machine)", so you do know the characteristics. If they can't or won't do that you then you can't expect consistent results.
If the printer in your case is doing art then it is no longer completely the photographer's art. The photographer needs to decide if they are happy for someone else to change the photographer's art that they may have worked a long time on into something else. Personally I want the 16bit TIFF I give them printed exactly the way it is.
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The photographer needs to decide if they are happy for someone else to change the photographer's art that they may have worked a long time on into something else. Personally I want the 16bit TIFF I give them printed exactly the way it is.
Well, that is a bit subjective. If you print your own images you may actually claim to be in control and say that every change was intentional, but we know it will not be entirely true. The printing process frequently imposes changes that you cannot avoid, leaving you only with the option of accepting it or tossing the print. Changes will occur in the process. On the other hand, predicting and counteracting/minimizing this changes when possible is part of the printer's job... so, if the printer is actively working to make your printed image represent more closely your digital file, can you say he is interfering with the artists view?
Note that on a proper "commercial fine art printing environment" nothing should happen automatically the artist is supposed to be present and the printer will show him the problems, suggest the possible alternatives and will only take actions with the artist's consent. Some artist will say "print as it is", some will say "do whatever you think is needed" and some will suggest different approaches. The key factor is: the so called "commercial fine art printer" acts as an advisor and may perform the adjustments, but the final decisions should always come from the artist.
That is why I always say the proper "commercial fine art printing workflow" must have the artist present. Obviously that is unnecessary on reprints and somehow less important when the artist has a "style" the printer is familiarized with. But even so, many artists choose the "do whatever you want" approach, leaving the printer in control. I understand your restrictions to this approach (I would never do it myself), but we may not forget that many famous photographers (actualy, MOST) did that. Ansel Adams was more an exception than an example of the majority.
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Geraldo,
Very true. Simple put it is impossible to print a 16 bit TIF (or any digital image) "the way it is".
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Changes will occur in the process.
Happy to learn. Please educate me. What changes?
This possibly may define the fine art printer.
I am in a regional area. If I need to print larger than the 3880 does then I need to send the file somewhere. I can't follow it.
I am aware of labs that just say to send the raw file and that may be great work, but it's not my work, and more importably it's not repeatable.
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Happy to learn. Please educate me. What changes?
This possibly may define the fine art printer.
I am in a regional area. If I need to print larger than the 3880 does then I need to send the file somewhere. I can't follow it.
I am aware of labs that just say to send the raw file and that may be great work, but it's not my work, and more importably it's not repeatable.
We can't control the artist's monitor. But our monitors are calibrated to our printers and viewing booths. So either the artist comes over and look on the proofs that we make before the final print is made, or we send the proofs to the artist who will check these before we print. Almost nothing is left unchanged from the file that we receive from the artist.
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Happy to learn. Please educate me. What changes?
This possibly may define the fine art printer.
Well, Bob...
If you really believe you are able to print an image that is absolute match from what you see on the screen with no change whatsoever... well, if that is truly the case I can only think of two scenarios to explain it:
1) You are God and you are just having fun with us.
2) You need to pay a visit to an ophthalmologist AND learn more about the printing process.
No matter which option you choose to believe, I will not be able to educate you out of this. But if you want to educate yourself I may suggest starting with the "from camera to print and screen" videos from Michel and Jeff, the "The Digital Print" book from Jeff and only then move to some deeper and more technical texts about the constitution of the printed image from various processes and how our eye/brain sees things. That is a good starting point but won't help you if you have problems seeing.
This is not a joke (Ok, except the (1) that is clearly a joke... I hope!). I incidentally helped many photographers and artists to discover they had eyesight problems exactly because they were unable to see some things I was pointing them. Lack of perception of out of focus areas is the most obvious problem, but there are other problems regarding color vision and contrast. People don't notice this problems more often than we would believe, so I am not joking. I am also not joking about the inevitability of change during the printing process, as I said the differences may be negligible or monstrous from case to case but they will be there even on the most perfect match you manage to print. If you can't see it... well, then nothing I could say would help you.
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What is "Fine art", firstly, and then we can see who does it as defined.
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Hi Geraldo.
I haven't read the book or seen the movie but I have spent two weeks in live in courses with Les Walkling, a world expert on fine art printing who consults to Epson and Canson, and Tony Hewett who was the immediate past Australian Professional Photographer of the Year, and picked up a few points on the things you seem to loosely describe.
The techniques of selective application of colour, sharpness, hardness, brightness etc to create the psychological illusion of three dimensions and emotion in the print along with the selection of the appropriate paper to achieve this are therefore sort of familiar. If these are not done by the photographer then many changes otherwise done by the photographer would have been a waste of time. I regard all changes to make the file as post production.
The output of all this on a correctly calibrated workflow is a file which is then printed in MiragePrint or similar using a custom profile made for that paper and printer. That is all I want from a print person. Some photographers will not want to do this and should just send the raw file to someone who can, who would then be performing the role of post production.
I have no idea what you are talking about by lack of perception of out of focus areas or "jocking" which must be a new photographic technique as you have used it several times.
But thanks and please keep doing what ever it is you are doing.
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... a world expert on fine art printing...
There you go! ;)
Expert on fine art printing = fine art printer
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Hi Geraldo.
I haven't read the book or seen the movie but I have spent two weeks in live in courses with Les Walkling, a world expert on fine art printing who consults to Epson and Canson...
That's funny because that's exactly what I've been doing all winter long is Less Walking! ;D :D :o
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Bob tell me is your end result a tif file?
If so i can understand your view i think that a print is just a paper copy.
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You guys are too funny!
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Bob tell me is your end result a tif file?
If so i can understand your view i think that a print is just a paper copy.
Yes, a 16bit AdobeRGB TIF. That goes in a folder called Final and every print comes from it.
As I say, always keen to learn.
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The output of all this on a correctly calibrated workflow is a file which is then printed in MiragePrint or similar using a custom profile made for that paper and printer. That is all I want from a print person. Some photographers will not want to do this and should just send the raw file to someone who can, who would then be performing the role of post production.
Ok, but you do realize that I was never talking about "send the raw file to someone who would then be performing the role of post production"? Nothing necessarily wrong with that for those who like, but even someone who actually makes their own post-production and produces "finished 16bit tiff files" may (actually should) do it on a output independent way. That means he/she should produce a final image that looks good on the screen but was not (yet) tailored for an specific output. When the output is decided the output file (adjusted for the output) will be created and here may lay the problem. From what you say you seems to be interested on understanding/taking control of this part, which is great, but most people don't know and don't want to know output specific details. They want someone with knowledge and experience on that specific output to act as a consultant and to alert them of possible problems and suggest solutions. Note that, as I said before, the artist should always be in charge and taking the decisions.
A quick example that just happened: A regular client that performs his own post production and sofproof brought a finished file that was pretty much ready for printing, but when we performed the final sofproof here he noticed an extremely saturated green on some leaves that he was unable to see on his calibrated display. Turns out that his (excellent) display has an sRGB gamut and the saturated greens of his ProPhotoRGB file was not visible (usually the systems perform a perceptual conversion to the monitor profile for exhibition). His reaction to the extremely saturated greens was something like "yikes", so I suggested a selective desaturation of the greens isolating that area. He agreed, it was done and the printed file was exactly how he wanted. It is completely different of someone sending the raw file.
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Good example of the service a fine art printer provides Geraldo.
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Yes, a 16bit AdobeRGB TIF. That goes in a folder called Final and every print comes from it.
As I say, always keen to learn.
Well Bob, i am also very keen to learn. Please elaborate how you get your files printed exactly as they are. You see if i just take a comparison between the color space of a typical printer paper combo versus a typical working color space of a image(processed, not raw), i cannot see how to get the file printed as it is. See attached image as an example:
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Turns out that his (excellent) display has an sRGB gamut and the saturated greens of his ProPhotoRGB file was not visible (usually the systems perform a perceptual conversion to the monitor profile for exhibition).
Ok, this is now getting useful. I would not consider a monitor that only covered sRGB to be an excellent display for what he is trying to achieve if he was working in ProPhotoRGB. I think most people at this point would be aware that saturated cyan will be beyond that.
I take it that you are referring to fine art printers role in adjusting the gamut to match the printer rather than doing selective adjustments to create emotion?
If using an AdobeRGB workflow then how would you ensure that the gamut was within range if you needed to send it to a third party?
(JRSmit, your diagram is unfortunately too small and unlabelled to be of any value in understanding your point. However again it purely seems to be a gamut issue.)
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If using an AdobeRGB workflow then how would you ensure that the gamut was within range if you needed to send it to a third party?
(JRSmit, your diagram is unfortunately too small and unlabelled to be of any value in understanding your point. However again it purely seems to be a gamut issue.)
That is a complex question with countless solutions however the most repeatable solution is to make sure colors are NOT clipping the Adobe RGB workspace.
If you clip gamut them the problems creep in and soft proofing falls short of its promise especially as you go wider in workspace gamut.
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My solution at this point is to put it into Mirage Print and select the paper and it tells me if it is out of gamut. However that only works for printers I have. if the ink set was different then it wouldn't work.
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I think sometimes we forget to take into account the difference between subtractive vs additive /reflective color(maybe my titles are not 100%, but).
This is something we know looks like what you expect on the screen things look fine, where light is inclusively creating white, and translating that to reflective medium gives the printer a chance to make a push and pull in contrast, color and other aspects that with experience and understanding can made a "more" exceptional print translation of the file. I have used a number of a good monitors and in good calibration, and aside from a CMYK output intention, in RGB there is more to it than soft proofing. Not often, but in some papers and combinations, I save the print file separate than the master file, as I had to tweak it a bit more than what looked correct on the screen. At least that's what I have come across on occasion, and often in my BW contrast needs.
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My solution at this point is to put it into Mirage Print and select the paper and it tells me if it is out of gamut. However that only works for printers I have. if the ink set was different then it wouldn't work.
It appears from research today that the answer to third party printers is to hard proof locally using The Absolute Colorimetric rendering intent.
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Ok, this is now getting useful. I would not consider a monitor that only covered sRGB to be an excellent display for what he is trying to achieve if he was working in ProPhotoRGB. I think most people at this point would be aware that saturated cyan will be beyond that.
Some Eizo ColorEdge display have sRGB gamut and they are excellent, but not wide gamut. Even the display with the widest gamut available on the market would not be able to display most of the prophoto space and not even some achievable colors of some paper/printer combination. It is perfectly possible to work like that when you know how to "fly by instruments", but it is also easier to make mistakes.
I take it that you are referring to fine art printers role in adjusting the gamut to match the printer rather than doing selective adjustments to create emotion?
Yes, things like that but not only that. Sometimes a client choses a paper that will never achieve his desired level of, lets say, D-max (and he doesn't even know what D-max means). He may need some advice on choosing another paper or, if the paper cannot be changed by some reason, be informed of the possible actions and outcomes. Sometimes the issue is the desired size versus level of detail and anyone who does not have everyday experience printing big images may make wrong assumptions on this matter. There are many, many ways a fine art printer may help an artist without interfering on creative process.
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So perhaps the definition of a fine art printer is a person who consults, colour manages and produces the output stage of a fine art print.
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Fine Art digital printer....Just considering, there other printing methods that take other skills not involving a inkjet printer.
Maybe... Someone who understands the tech and tools available today in the reproduction process of taking a digital file and making a print with an intentional end result.
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Is it possible that someone who calls themselves a fine art printer is guilty of being seen as smug and pretentious? :-\
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I can totally see that in some cases Stamper.
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Is it possible that someone who calls themselves a fine art printer is guilty of being seen as smug and pretentious? :-\
That is not a crime. If you don't think you are good then how do you expect anyone else to think you are good. If you can prove it then even better.
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I'm still waiting for adefinition of "fine art", other than "I'ts what the customer gives me".
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That is not a crime. If you don't think you are good then how do you expect anyone else to think you are good. If you can prove it then even better.
If you are a client of a "fine art printer" and you exude smugness and pretension then it could be off putting to potential clients. I have seen adverts from photographers who state they can undertake any kind of work including weddings. Another type to be wary of. Why not just declare ...photographer for hire? :-\
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I'm still waiting for adefinition of "fine art", other than "I'ts what the customer gives me".
I have printed for "artists" since approx 1975. Silkscreen printing in my own shop, some other techniques when I founded, with some other guys, a collective artist's printing facility in 1981 (Daglicht, Eindhoven) and inkjet printing since 1999 in my shop again. "Artists" as I do not believe you would expect them to be alike in all qualities, so you may not expect that Fine Art printers are all made from the same mold. My view on it my differ from the next guy. I have no disdain for the local T-shirt printer, what comes from his shop has a market too and when his customers are happy with the product he must have some skills. Fine Art is already a superlative I would not use and is less used over here as we say Art which covers a wider field with less pretentions.
What I find important in my work is to be able to understand the artist's goals or if I do not understand them, create a situation where it works for the artist, as long as my shop is not destroyed one way or another. Sometimes I have to warn them about possible problems but there has to be some flexibility like one adapts to the data and pieces they bring in. Wallet sizes differ too. I think my broad interests in technology helps but I know other art printers that are more practical in their approach and they have good solutions too. The other important thing is integrity in what you supply; in what the artists, galleries, musea, art buyers expect in print runs, media use, claims made. Yes, I have seen some cheating as well in that environment but I try to keep my end of the process clean as that lasts in time.
If you check the knowledge of people here that write in some forums like the color management forum then I see that printing knowledge can be found in both art printers and the broader range of the printing facilities. It is is a good thing if it is available in an art print shop but does not work well if the other criteria summed up are not met.
Some knowledge of art history, trends in art is convenient. An art printer will not appreciate all the art made in his shop but he should assist on all kinds of projects. In that sense his place is not different from a shoemaker repairing the customer's shoes of whatever fashion. If you want to be creative in art then do that in your own work and not by steering other artist's work in a direction you like. That said when asked by the artist which solution could be found for this or that expression of the work at hand you might suggest some ways with empathy, intelligence for the artist and the work. You should have experience in this technology that goes beyond that of the artist so there is a source. Suggest, not dictate. Give more than one solution.
YMMV
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Thanks, Ernst. That is so well expressed that not much more need be said.
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If you are a client of a "fine art printer" and you exude smugness and pretension then it could be off putting to potential clients. I have seen adverts from photographers who state they can undertake any kind of work including weddings. Another type to be wary of. Why not just declare ...photographer for hire? :-\
Being rude to a customer is never the way to sell anything. However a salesman may be wonderfully polite and know nothing. Knowledge and politeness are not necessarily linked. Personally I would much rather give my work to someone who was obviously talented and not great socially than someone who was charismatic and knew nothing.
As for photographers who can do anything, well some can. I know of a recent Landscape Professional Photographer of the Year who has also done about a thousand weddings. He now chooses not to do weddings, but would do one if requested. That does make them churn and burn.
How you advertise and market yourself is really not up to others in the same profession to question. Watch and learn.
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I said nothing about rudeness so why quote my post? ::)
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I decided to revive a two-month old post of mine in this forum, given that here we have a bunch of fine-arat printers to ask for advice. The post (end the ensuing discussion) is here: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=97161.msg794517#msg794517
But I will repeat the scenario for those who do not want to read old threads:
I was particularly interested in the color distribution of one particular image of mine that I expected to be difficult to print, as it has a lot of subtle blue variations, typically outside sRGB gamut that I am requested to send to a lab.
Here is the image:
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3947/15057449833_f1ec2c222e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oWznf2)
Aqua Blue II (https://flic.kr/p/oWznf2) by Slobodan Blagojevic (https://www.flickr.com/people/20843597@N05/), on Flickr
And here are the plots comparing sRGB and AdobeRGB agains the color distribution of the image. Adobe can hold just a smidgen more colors than sRGB (for this particular image), so the question is:
Which paper profile/printer/process combination would result in a max coverage (apart from ProPhotoRGB, the image's embedded profile, of course)?
The best comment I got was from bill t. who said:
The question is not which media is least out of gamut in the blues, but rather which one has the most attractive palette of Gamut-Failure-Blues.
So, fine-art printers, what would you use/advise to print an image like this?
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I have printed for "artists" since approx 1975. Silkscreen printing in my own shop, some other techniques when I founded, with some other guys, a collective artist's printing facility in 1981 (Daglicht, Eindhoven) and inkjet printing since 1999 in my shop again. "Artists" as I do not believe you would expect them to be alike in all qualities, so you may not expect that Fine Art printers are all made from the same mold. My view on it my differ from the next guy. I have no disdain for the local T-shirt printer, what comes from his shop has a market too and when his customers are happy with the product he must have some skills. Fine Art is already a superlative I would not use and is less used over here as we say Art which covers a wider field with less pretentions.
What I find important in my work is to be able to understand the artist's goals or if I do not understand them, create a situation where it works for the artist, as long as my shop is not destroyed one way or another. Sometimes I have to warn them about possible problems but there has to be some flexibility like one adapts to the data and pieces they bring in. Wallet sizes differ too. I think my broad interests in technology helps but I know other art printers that are more practical in their approach and they have good solutions too. The other important thing is integrity in what you supply; in what the artists, galleries, musea, art buyers expect in print runs, media use, claims made. Yes, I have seen some cheating as well in that environment but I try to keep my end of the process clean as that lasts in time.
If you check the knowledge of people here that write in some forums like the color management forum then I see that printing knowledge can be found in both art printers and the broader range of the printing facilities. It is is a good thing if it is available in an art print shop but does not work well if the other criteria summed up are not met.
Some knowledge of art history, trends in art is convenient. An art printer will not appreciate all the art made in his shop but he should assist on all kinds of projects. In that sense his place is not different from a shoemaker repairing the customer's shoes of whatever fashion. If you want to be creative in art then do that in your own work and not by steering other artist's work in a direction you like. That said when asked by the artist which solution could be found for this or that expression of the work at hand you might suggest some ways with empathy, intelligence for the artist and the work. You should have experience in this technology that goes beyond that of the artist so there is a source. Suggest, not dictate. Give more than one solution.
YMMV
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
This is a mature, informed statement that echoes some of what Geraldo has been saying. The pros know who they are and what they are doing. Beyond that it is all about ethics and integrity.
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I was particularly interested in the color distribution of one particular image of mine that I expected to be difficult to print, as it has a lot of subtle blue variations, typically outside sRGB gamut that I am requested to send to a lab.
Adobe can hold just a smidgen more colors than sRGB (for this particular image), so the question is:
So, fine-art printers, what would you use/advise to print an image like this?
THE INTERACTION OF COLOR (http://www.amazon.com/Interaction-Color-50th-Anniversary-Edition/dp/0300179359)
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I decided to revive a two-month old post of mine in this forum, given that here we have a bunch of fine-arat printers to ask for advice. The post (end the ensuing discussion) is here: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=97161.msg794517#msg794517
But I will repeat the scenario for those who do not want to read old threads:
I was particularly interested in the color distribution of one particular image of mine that I expected to be difficult to print, as it has a lot of subtle blue variations, typically outside sRGB gamut that I am requested to send to a lab.
Here is the image:
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3947/15057449833_f1ec2c222e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oWznf2)
Aqua Blue II (https://flic.kr/p/oWznf2) by Slobodan Blagojevic (https://www.flickr.com/people/20843597@N05/), on Flickr
And here are the plots comparing sRGB and AdobeRGB agains the color distribution of the image. Adobe can hold just a smidgen more colors than sRGB (for this particular image), so the question is:
Which paper profile/printer/process combination would result in a max coverage (apart from ProPhotoRGB, the image's embedded profile, of course)?
The best comment I got was from bill t. who said:
So, fine-art printers, what would you use/advise to print an image like this?
It is much more than simply selecting a paper. There are edits that one needs to consider to get the output to look like the master file.
We usually start with selective color and move from there.
Here is a selective color edit that brings the color into the tonal range for one of our profiles. It is a starting point toward getting the output to render like the original. Remember that ICC profiles are not intelligent, they use fixed formulas to remap color and do not always hit the perceptual impression of the original so the fine print maker must understand that and act accordingly.
Install the ICC profile, open the PSD and soft proof it with the new profile under relative intent comparing it to the posted file from Slobodan.
I look forward to everyone's dialogue and techniques
the PSD with a base edit layer and ICC profile are here:
http://www.robert-park.com/uploads/Color_test.psd
http://www.robert-park.com/uploads/84KFlexLegacy.icm
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Just to clarify, the embedded image in my post is already in sRGB mode (for posting on Flickr).
Robert, are you suggesting I should upload a 16-bit TIFF file with a ProPhoto working profile for selective color edits?
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Just to clarify, the embedded image in my post is already in sRGB mode (for posting on Flickr).
Robert, are you suggesting I should upload a 16-bit TIFF file with a ProPhoto working profile for selective color edits?
You could as it would be more instructive however I detest printing from ProPhoto as it frequently is numerically representing colors that are far outside of any printable gamut or gamut that is viewable on any monitor.
You will encounter issues more often when colors are pushed in ProPhoto. I prefer Beta RGB but am probably firmly in the minority.