Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: ASSEMBLY on January 22, 2015, 07:38:12 am
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To make a long story short...ish
I once shot with a P25+ and a Cambo WRS. Loved the combo, but my my direction in photography turned from heavily shooting building and interiors to occasionally doing so....so I eventually sold it.
Big mistake.
5 years pass and I still pine for that old P25+. Perfect balance of financial prudence with all the wonders of medium format.
I finally track one down on craigslist for a very reasonable sum. But it comes with a Hassy H2 body. Not that big a deal, but I've never shot with such a thing. I do have a 503CW with a small arsenal of lenses, but thats a V setup, not an H. Again not that big a deal, just get the CF adapter and we're set...ish.
So here I sit with an H2, the CF adapter, a complete 503CW setup including 4 lenses, a complete Canon setup with countless lenses...plus a bevy of other photographic tools. Some large, some small.
In other words, my wife is going to kill me.
So here's my question. Do I sell off the 503CW gear in order to fund the purchase of H lenses? Do I keep the 503 gear just for film and sell off the H2 body so I can eventually get back my beloved Cambo? Do I sell off the vast majority of my Canon gear and just keep the bodies? That way I can rent when necessary.
So many questions. Please help. I'm sure this is not all that uncommon a dilemma.
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To aide in decision making. I'm an architect who shoots on the side. Mostly buildings and interiors professionally. But I do travel a fair amount and shoot for stock imagery or my own personal work. I'll be heading to Patagonia in March.
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One option is to keep the H2 and sell the 503CW and lenses. You can get a film back for H2. That way you'll be able to shoot both digital (P25+) and 120 film on the same body.
Another more drastic option is to sell all the H2, 503CW and Canon stuff and get a small light weight companion to Cambo WRS. You can go in many directions here, Leica, Nikon Df, Fuiji X-T1, Sony A7r etc. depending on your preference. That's the option I am going with for my Cambo WRS.
Good luck with your choice.
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...but the H2 is no where near as sexy as a 503 ;)
I do have an everyday carry Panny LX100 that is basically a Leica at a quarter the price. It's a lovely little companion camera.
I'm seriously considering the all cambo route. In your experience are lenses widely available on the used market for reasonable ($$$, not $$$$$) prices?
Thank you for weighing in, Jam
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One other thing I'm considering is the all ALPA route. Can anyone weigh in on how they behave in relation to the Cambo? I know they come at a premium, is it worth it?
They're just such beautiful pieces of industrial design, I cant help but consider them.
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Honestly, I'd ditch the H2 body and do what you need to in order to get the Cambo. Hide the P25+ for now, it was a price you couldn't say no to right? That's the whole purpose right, get you back to that happy place?
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>>>> In your experience are lenses widely available on the used market for reasonable ($$$, not $$$$$) prices?
I would not say they are widely available. If you are patient and keep checking "Buy & Sell" sections of various forums, you'll find listings for Cambo lenses. I think there are listings for 70mm HR, SK90mm and SK120 currently.
As to the "for reasonable ($$$, not $$$$$) prices?" part of your question, I would say that depends on the seller.
Some sellers are motivated and want to move on, and price their equipment accordingly. Others want to recoup as much of their original investment as possible and those prices are only slightly less than the price of a new lens. So its possible to get a deal.
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Joe, you are 100% correct. Absolute photographic nirvana is the key.
Price on the P25+ was astonishing.
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...but the H2 is no where near as sexy as a 503 ;)
Agreed, but it has autofocus and film backs a plenty. The H series is a great cam.
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I'm sure Doug can arrange a mount change for the back at a reasonable price;
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Agreed, but it has autofocus and film backs a plenty. The H series is a great cam.
And the programmable shutter/mirror delay because sometimes locking up the mirror is not an option, I have both, some days one some the other!!
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I'm sure Doug can arrange a mount change for the back at a reasonable price;
Unfortunately probably not. Mount swaps are contingent on availability and the availability of P25+ is not great. It would also be $3k if available, which is unlikely to be a good net value. Someone with an IQ180 wanting to change mounts - that often makes sense, and with an IQ2 back you automatically get a one-time free mount swap. But not with a P25+. With that you really want to get the mount right upon purchase.
When searching for medium format, regardless of your budget, you have two paths:
A) Find a good deal, and then look to see if it's a good fit for you
B) Figure out what's a good fit for you, and then look for a good deal on it
Many people start out on (A). But in eight years working at a Phase One dealer it's clear to me that (B) ends with a happy buyer more often.
My advice is not to make your decision based on this specific Craigslist back. Instead figure out where you want to get, and then start looking for a good deal. It's a big world, and with some patience (assuming it's not urgent), you can find a good deal on anything you narrow in on. It's very possible that the right system for you is an H2 and a P25+, but it's also possible that it is not.
I would also selfishly and self-interestedly suggest that you consider additional factors into what is a good deal. For instance warranty, dealer support (for all the questions you have, and any training you need/want), condition of accessories, assurance the back is in perfect order (no IR scratches, no fungus, operational even for use-types the previous owner didn't need, firmware up to date, calibration of sensor good).
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One other thing I'm considering is the all ALPA route. Can anyone weigh in on how they behave in relation to the Cambo? I know they come at a premium, is it worth it?
They're just such beautiful pieces of industrial design, I cant help but consider them.
I see you're in New York, why not make an appointment with us to come play with a few Cambo models? We also have several Arca models and an Alpa TC / Phase One A Series (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/road-diary-phase-one-a-series).
We're in midtown, near Macy's in Herald Square, and this is what we do every day (help people understand their options in medium format digital).
You can also play with a few H lenses. (We are also a dealer for Hassy lenses/bodies).
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Is there no H mount adapter for Cambo, Alpa, or Arca Swiss?
Edmund
I see you're in New York, why not make an appointment with us to come play with a few Cambo models? We also have several Arca models and an Alpa TC / Phase One A Series (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/road-diary-phase-one-a-series).
We're in midtown, near Macy's in Herald Square, and this is what we do every day (help people understand their options in medium format digital).
You can also play with a few H lenses. (We are also a dealer for Hassy lenses/bodies).
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Hi Doug,
Funny you should chime in. My original P25+ and Cambo setup came from you guys. Many years ago. I've always worked with Jeff Lin and I believe I've met you a time or two. I put feelers out with Jeff on P25+ availability and he gave me the same run down you did. Which I appreciate and trust 100%
With regard to this P25+ I currently have, I have a feeling it was well cared for. It had been used by a pro out of Minneapolis and traded in with Derrick Brown (of Image Link Corp). He drove down to NYC so I could inspect it in person before making the deal.
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I completely agree that one should find the complete set of tools that deliver on all requirements, rather than trying to put together a setup piecemeal. However, the P25+ served me well in the past and I'm afraid an IQ1 or 2 is just too far beyond my pay grade for the regularity and type of work I do. I'm hoping I can make the H mount work one way or another, but I'll just have to wait and see.
I WILL take you up on your offer to stop by and chat through my needs. I greatly appreciate that. I assume I should set it up with Jeff?
All the best, Sean
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I WILL take you up on your offer to stop by and chat through my needs. I greatly appreciate that. I assume I should set it up with Jeff?
I'll let him know to expect your call :).
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Is there no H mount adapter for Cambo, Alpa, or Arca Swiss?
There absolutely is. All mounts for all tech cameras. Even a Hy6 adapter on most tech cameras!
If you're only looking for a tech camera it is very freeing regarding which mount you buy.
But in the case you also want an SLR alongside the tech camera it matters a great deal.
In any case it seems I misread earlier, he has already purchased the P25+ so it's a moot point.
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And the programmable shutter/mirror delay because sometimes locking up the mirror is not an option, I have both, some days one some the other!!
Care to elaborate on this? I believe you're speaking of the delay prior to mirror up or shutter release which can be setup via the menu. Any way to setup a bulb timer via the menu? That'd be super handy. OR is the only option to buy a timer cable release?
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There absolutely is. All mounts for all tech cameras. Even a Hy6 adapter on most tech cameras!
If you're only looking for a tech camera it is very freeing regarding which mount you buy.
But in the case you also want an SLR alongside the tech camera it matters a great deal.
In any case it seems I misread earlier, he has already purchased the P25+ so it's a moot point.
So he can do Cambo with his P25+ anyway - that should make him happy!
Edmund
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You can delay everything :D
I refer primarily to the mirror delay as they call it which is actually a shutter delay but in microseconds!!
You pre-set mirror delay - You can set a 25ms to 200ms delay for the mirror up to shutter fire sequence . So the sequence is: fire shutter set delay kicks in as mirror vibrations settle then shutter fires.
Of course you can just lock up the mirror conventionally and fire shutter, with a normal self time delay (variable in secs) or shoot with a self timer AND mirror delay, but I can't see why you would do that unless it was a selfie and you didn't want to change your mirror delay settings. I also find the shooting banks useful: As in Nikon SLRs (no Canon experience) you can set all the variables exposure mode display etc and save them as a named bank, even on my H1, so you can set up all variables for studio, sport ( ;D) landscape and switch with one menu choice.
The V of course offers the "pure" experience.
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Sean with a WRS you can use this:
http://www.ebay.ch/itm/Cambo-WDS-WRS-Lens-board-fit-hasselblad-lens-phase-one-leaf-digital-back-/171643633696?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27f6c20020
I bought it two years ago from the same seller and after a small modification I can shift all my V lenses up to 12 mm.
The CFE 40 IF is now a very important lens for my interior photos.
Ben
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Ben, the image circle on most V lenses is sufficient? Sounds amazing! How does it compare to Rodey/Schneider glass? Can the layman/woman tell the difference?
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Sean with a WRS you can use this:
http://www.ebay.ch/itm/Cambo-WDS-WRS-Lens-board-fit-hasselblad-lens-phase-one-leaf-digital-back-/171643633696?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27f6c20020
I bought it two years ago from the same seller and after a small modification I can shift all my V lenses up to 12 mm.
The CFE 40 IF is now a very important lens for my interior photos.
Ben
Ben, small modification? Care to elucidate?
CFE 40 IF shift is given as 1mm here : http://harrysproshop.com/Hasselblad_Flex/hasselblad_flex.html
Is the shift related to the digital back crop as I presume the quotes are for full frame 6x6?
In what way is this set up superior to the flex adapter?
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Use F11 and everything is perfect up to 12mm shift. With the P40+ you can shift more but corner sharpness
gets worse, but normally I don't need corner sharpness in skys and ceilings and floors..........
With the P25+ you will be happy.
There are some very good V lenses as the 40 CFE IF, the 100, the 120 and I love also the 80 CFE and the 150 CFI.
My Rodeys/Schneiders have larger image circles but in the center (+ - 5mm shift) they are not visibly sharper.
But this should be discussed by pixel peepers, I only have to earn money with these lenses.....
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Chris
I think this 1 mm is for 6x6.
I prefer this setup because I can horizontal + vertical shift at the same time and the Flex adapter can't take Rodeys/Schneiders.
The Flexbody also can tilt, this makes it less stable. Sometimes very small displacement destroys an image......
By the way, I still have a Flexbody in good condition to sell...
The small modification was to cut off some metal that diminished the image circle to 9mm and paint this parts black. When I look at the pictures on eBay
I see that this problem is solved now. With this peace you may have more than 12mm shift.
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Chris
I think this 1 mm is for 6x6.
I agree, reply appreciated, an attractive option, I've not had hands on the flex body so as always user comments are more pertinent than the blurb!!
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Ben, that's some great information. Thanks for sharing.
Any experience in using CF lenses with similar results. In other words are CFE lenses a must?
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" In other words are CFE lenses a must? "
Sean
I don't think. I prefer the focusing ring and the cable lock on the CFEs.
Maybe they are more straylight resistant.
I use the CF 120, CF 100 and the CF 60.
The only must is the CFE 40 IF. This lens is a class of it's own.
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" In other words are CFE lenses a must? "
Sean
I don't think. I prefer the focusing ring and the cable lock on the CFEs.
The CFi range has the pc cable lock as well FYI.
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Chris,
Not sure that you've mentioned your complete setup (ie back used and crop factor) but curious as to what the field of view is with the 40 CFE IF. One shot, no stitching. Vertical, horizontal. Also, what's it roughly like in 35mm terms?
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Chris,
Not sure that you've mentioned your complete setup (ie back used and crop factor) but curious as to what the field of view is with the 40 CFE IF. One shot, no stitching. Vertical, horizontal. Also, what's it roughly like in 35mm terms?
The second tool here will show you the comparative angle of view between nearly all photo formats, allowing comparison by vertical, horizontal, diagonal, absolute focal length, and allows stitching:
https://digitaltransitions.com/page/tech-camera-visualizers
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Wow! That's some impressive HTML, Doug. Thanks for the link.
I promise I'll get back to Jeff this weekend - a bit of a crazy week.
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Chris,
Not sure that you've mentioned your complete setup (ie back used and crop factor) but curious as to what the field of view is with the 40 CFE IF. One shot, no stitching. Vertical, horizontal. Also, what's it roughly like in 35mm terms?
Setup is 501c/m with Phase One P20 back (square sensor)
The sensor is 36.9mm square so diagonal is 52.1845mm
The frame is 6x6 which in real life is 56mm square so 79.196mm diagonal.
That gives a crop factor of 1.52 (1.5 is always quoted!!)
The diagonal angle of view of a 40mm lens on the 6x6 frame is 88 degrees so that cropped gives 60 degrees which is equivalent to using a 60mm lens on 6x6 full frame.
In 35mm terms a 60 degree angle of view diagonal is given by a 35mm lens (rounding figures to nearest equivalents).
Hope that is clear :)
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Wow! That's some impressive HTML, Doug. Thanks for the link.
Thanks. I had a lot of fun learning Raphael JS (http://raphaeljs.com/) to make it. It was still a ton of work, but SO much less work than trying to code it from scratch.
I promise I'll get back to Jeff this weekend - a bit of a crazy week.
No rush on our end. We're glad to help when you're ready :).
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Chris,
Thank you, that is clear and helpful. Would you mind sharing an image taken with that setup? Preferably a tight interior shot.
Much appreciated.
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So prior to starting this thread, I found and purchased a 40mm CF for a reasonable price on eBay. Just arrived and it seems pretty serviceable.
I know you recommend the CFE IF, but wondering if this CF copy has the same image circle. Anyone know? I dont have a Cambo YET to try it out but curious if I should just send it back or keep it.
thx.
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I know you recommend the CFE IF, but wondering if this CF copy has the same image circle. Anyone know? I dont have a Cambo YET to try it out but curious if I should just send it back or keep it.
Sorry, I can't remember the image circle, but mine (CF FLE) was nowhere sharp enough and was weak in backlight situations.
The IF is something else. It's also strong on the D800 with a Mirex shift adapter, stronger than my Nikkor 45 PC.
Only problem is it's weight and it's price.....
Ben
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Chris,
Thank you, that is clear and helpful. Would you mind sharing an image taken with that setup? Preferably a tight interior shot.
Much appreciated.
You can't get tighter than this en-suite ;) Not dressed!! Mixed light, came in at 3167 -0.5, and yes the sensor needs a clean. Levelled off on tripod. The triangle of light LHS of the radiator is daylight from the skylight. Profile is P20 flash, standard film curve.
@f8, focus on radiator, 50 iso, about 3 secs ( I was counting! ) C1v7 Happy to send the RAW if mail will take it 18MB.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7421/16355617446_6dc6f3515d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qVhPff)
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Chris,
Thank you greatly for taking the time to explain and post that image. At the moment I dont believe I need the RAW file.
Trying to put this to bed....
My last question is re: H lenses. Does anyone have similar experience in using a tech camera with the wider H lenses? I'm assuming the H mount is backwards compatible with the V bodies? Are they similarly sharp? If I'm throwing ~$5k at the 40mm CFE IF, should I just get a similarly wide H lens? I could benefit from a wide +movements lens and keep my H2 body (with autofocus) for other work. Questions are whether the 28mm or 35mm have similar image circles, and if they're as sharp.
I may have jumbled H and V in that paragraph, let me know if I'm hard to follow.
Thanks in advance.
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BTW. I appreciate your putting up an un-edited photo for review. Most (self-conscious photogs) would post a final photo, but its what's in the actual RAW image that truly counts. Cheers.
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Trying to put this to bed....
I'm assuming the H mount is backwards compatible with the V bodies? Are they similarly sharp?
Thanks in advance.
I think you jumbled. The older V glass can be mounted on the H body with the adapter, mine is at Hasselblad for service, it works well for static work. The H lenses cannot go on the V body. There is a longish article from Hasselblad showing the H glass is "better" MTF wise than the older V. This was they switched from Zeiss to Fuji and there were concerns, understandably, from those using Zeiss since day one.
http://www.hasselblad.co.uk/media/1663143/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf
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Yup. Late night, little sleep will do that. Hs and Vs all start to blur together.
So now this turns into more questions. I promise it was never my intention to create the Forum Topic with no end...
If I were to ditch my 503CW setup and stick with the H2 body (a sad thought) and pick up a Cambo WDS, would it be possible to mount the H lenses?
I kind of understand the concerns over Fuji v. Zeiss - but are they truly substantiated?
I ask due to the high cost of the 40mm CFE IF lens and wonder if that money isnt better spent on more recent technology? Not saying IT IS, just asking the question.
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Once you get used to the H2 then you will be wanting H3, H4, H5 ....
Beautiful cameras.
I bought an H1 with P21+ back and have since gone H2 and then H3DII-31. No need for a truck load of batteries now.
V series were nice to but need to move forward and that's H. The CF adaptor is a fair bit of money for nostalgia.
I actually have a Cambo WDS with H back and WDS 35mm lens mount but no lens. Toying with the idea of selling it.
You can't mount H lenses on a Cambo WDS. I am trying to find a way to mount a Canon TSE lens but no success. You need to overcome the electronic control.
Lenses like V series and RB67 may be possible but they are probably too big.
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Sean a couple of points from me.
I went (many years ago) from a 503CW to H platform and haven't looked back. While the H camera doesn't have the hipster/cool factor of the V system it is a substantially better camera. The AF is extremely good and IMO needed.
As for the lenses the H System lenses are absolutely better than the old Zeiss lenses.
Hope that helps.
Nick-T
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Once you get used to the H2 then you will be wanting H3, H4, H5 ....
Beautiful cameras.
Definitely be wary of this. I thought I'd be happy shooting on a H3d, but then tried a H5d and had to get it. In a perfect world I'd be shooting an iq180 on a h5x- the bodies really are that nice. Each is a small but meaningful step forward. I just wish Phocus would get a bit of a refresh for those of us not shooting a phase back!!
I recently shot an architectural job and was using about 6 HBs- and going from a h3dii to a h5d the change was huge. I've rented the CF lens adaptor, but really, the H lenses are much better suited to the system. The T/S adaptor is also extremely useful- obviously not to the same extent as a dedicated view camera, but if you're looking to use your H lenses, it's something to look into though. If only it was half the price it is currently..
warmly,
Jake
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Aww man, you guys are always getting me into trouble by introducing me to new gear. I had worked so hard to avoid looking at the latest Hasselblad bodies, but alas, the holdout is over...
H4x and H5x bodies look great. I'll have to see about demoing. What's the big upgrade in the 4 vs. 5? Just interchangeability between h5d + h5x?
...and yes, the sex appeal of the V series makes my 503 a hard one to part with.
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H4x and H5x bodies look great. I'll have to see about demoing. What's the big upgrade in the 4 vs. 5? Just interchangeability between h5d + h5x?
We have both an H4X and an H5X in our demo inventory. Just email for an appointment and you can play with both to your hearts content in our demo studio.
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Aww man, you guys are always getting me into trouble by introducing me to new gear. I had worked so hard to avoid looking at the latest Hasselblad bodies, but alas, the holdout is over...
H4x and H5x bodies look great. I'll have to see about demoing. What's the big upgrade in the 4 vs. 5? Just interchangeability between h5d + h5x?
...and yes, the sex appeal of the V series makes my 503 a hard one to part with.
Deepest apologies. :-X Definitely take up Doug's offer- but personally there's no way I'd choose the h4x over the h5x. In terms of improvements, the 5 seems much more solidly built, faster to boot, and the true focus has had a meaningful upgrade. Plus undeniable sex appeal over the 4!
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Jake, no worries, it was inevitable.
I've been reading a bit on the H4 vs. H5 and seem to be coming to the same conclusion as you. The H5 seems to be worth its weight. ...and you are absolutely correct; in losing the grey on grey styling, Hassy has regained some of the sex appeal of the V series.
In working through a budget to transition up to an H5, I'm curious if anyone can lend some real world pricing on the H5x?
I'll still have to weigh it against a tech camera / interoperability of lenses, but this H5 is starting to look like a real winner.
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Deepest apologies. :-X Definitely take up Doug's offer- but personally there's no way I'd choose the h4x over the h5x. In terms of improvements, the 5 seems much more solidly built, faster to boot, and the true focus has had a meaningful upgrade. Plus undeniable sex appeal over the 4!
# 9 on the Top Ten list has H5 over H4 improvements itemized. #'s 1, 3, 4 , 6 and 10 of those improvements are relevant to the camera body itself:
https://captureintegration.com/top-10-things-i-love-about-the-hasselblad-h-system/
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration