Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: HSakols on January 20, 2015, 09:35:51 am
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We all know that the Nikon D800 has a loud mirror/ shutter. I've been a bit worried that the shutter itself is clunky enough to cause motion blur when on a tripod. Is there any evidence out there that would suggest this is the case for landscape photographers using tripods? Or do I just want a D810?
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The D800 shutter is no louder/clunkier than most Nikon dSLRs. But the D810 is noticably quieter and seems smoother too.
Shutter/mirror movement will always risk an element of "camera shake" which is why we use tripods (and MUp mode) for landscapes.
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I always shoot using MLU or exposure delay (which locks the mirror). Again have people found that when mounted on a tripod that the shutter slaps enough to make a less sharp image?
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no- don't worry about it..
( had the camera 2 years and shot 150.000 sharp photos with it... ok not all :) )
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We all know that the Nikon D800 has a loud mirror/ shutter. I've been a bit worried that the shutter itself is clunky enough to cause motion blur when on a tripod. Is there any evidence out there that would suggest this is the case for landscape photographers using tripods? Or do I just want a D810?
IMHO, yes you want a D810. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the D800. It is still just as good as it was before and if all you intend to use it for is landscape, then it will be fine. However, the D810 is a little bit better in dozens of ways that make it a much more usable camera than the D800. I think Tom Hogen mentioned like 50 differences in the preview write-up alone. When you say D810, Think D900 instead! It really is a whole new camera. The shutter box and focus is so much better. And it just operates faster in every way. I believe, at least for me, it is the best general purpose DSLR on the planet. I could not say that about the D800.
Specifically with respect to the mirror and shutter, when shooting landscape, I use mirror lockup mode or I shoot in live View and Continuous High (Hold shutter and shoot the whole bracket sequence). Went through a bit of work to find out that in Live View, the D800 and D810 leave the mirror up. Older Nikons flipped the mirrors down and back up when shooting an image in Live View Mode. I use 1st curtain shutter for landscape shooting as well.
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with the D800. It is still just as good as it was before ........
Yep. That is something we often tend to forget. The piece of kit you bought to do a job last year/5 years ago/20 years ago will, if it is still in working order, do the same job just as well today.
All of my word processing and spreadsheet needs today could easily be met by Wordstar and Supercalc running under a CPM+ operating systems on my old Amstrad PCW (if I still had it).
I am afraid that I am an "upgrade junkie". When I sold my D800 and bought a D810 I easily persuaded myself that the advances in the D810 over the D800 were huge (as, indeed they are) but, if I am honest, the D800 was not failing to do anything I needed it to do and it would be a kinda warped CBA that would "prove" that the advantages of the D810 were worth the upgrade price.
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I am afraid that I am an "upgrade junkie". When I sold my D800 and bought a D810 I easily persuaded myself that the advances in the D810 over the D800 were huge (as, indeed they are) but, if I am honest, the D800 was not failing to do anything I needed it to do and it would be a kinda warped CBA that would "prove" that the advantages of the D810 were worth the upgrade price.
It is incumbent on the buyer to compare them and match the features/performance to their type of shooting. As a landscape only or every day camera, I could live with the D800. But I would never have been satisfied doing sports with it. I didn't have the sunk cost of the D800 to deal with so it was a straight up comparision between the two cameras and I found the incremental price difference (especially after Nikon dropped the price $300 and Amazon gave me 6% cash back via Ebates.com [only time Amazon has done cash back on photo stuff and only lasted 3 days]) to be well worth buying the D810.
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We all know that the Nikon D800 has a loud mirror/ shutter. I've been a bit worried that the shutter itself is clunky enough to cause motion blur when on a tripod. Is there any evidence out there that would suggest this is the case for landscape photographers using tripods? Or do I just want a D810?
There is no material difference without locking up the mirror:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6731
The big difference between the D800 and the D810 shutter for tripod work is the electronic first-curtain shutter (EFCS) on the D810. Here's how EFCS works:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6641
EFCS makes the biggest difference with long lenses. In this test, with a 400/2.8, you can consider the non-EFCS results to be a proxy for D800 results:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6658
EFCS can even make come difference with a 50mmlens. Whether it's significant, you'll have to judge for yourself:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6618
Here's a test run with a 135mm Apo Sonnar:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6638
If you think a zoom is too fuzzy to start out with for EFCS to make much difference, you'd be wrong:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6650
Jim
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It is incumbent on the buyer to compare them and match the features/performance to their type of shooting. As a landscape only or every day camera, I could live with the D800. But I would never have been satisfied doing sports with it. I didn't have the sunk cost of the D800 to deal with so it was a straight up comparision between the two cameras and I found the incremental price difference (especially after Nikon dropped the price $300 and Amazon gave me 6% cash back via Ebates.com [only time Amazon has done cash back on photo stuff and only lasted 3 days]) to be well worth buying the D810.
The EFCS on the D810 is important for the landscape shooter that also likes longer focal lengths. Besides that the D810 does not lock the camera to enter or exit live view as the D800 does while the camera is writing on the cards.
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The big difference between the D800 and the D810 shutter for tripod work is the electronic first-curtain shutter (EFCS) on the D810. Here's how EFCS works:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6641
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hello Jim, first thanks for all the well done tests you do...
something i don' understand...;
in your blog you say " The fastest strobe synch speed for the D810 is 1/250 second, or 4 milliseconds "
but i thought you can use the d810 (and d800e ) also at 1/320sec or 3.1 milliseconds or did i miss something?
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hello Jim, first thanks for all the well done tests you do...
something i don' understand...;
in your blog you say " The fastest strobe synch speed for the D810 is 1/250 second, or 4 milliseconds "
but i thought you can use the d810 (and d800e ) also at 1/320sec or 3.1 milliseconds or did i miss something?
You're right. I'm wrong. I'll fix it.
Thanks,
Jim
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There is no material difference without locking up the mirror:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6731
The big difference between the D800 and the D810 shutter for tripod work is the electronic first-curtain shutter (EFCS) on the D810. Here's how EFCS works:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6641
EFCS makes the biggest difference with long lenses. In this test, with a 400/2.8, you can consider the non-EFCS results to be a proxy for D800 results:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6658
EFCS can even make come difference with a 50mmlens. Whether it's significant, you'll have to judge for yourself:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6618
Here's a test run with a 135mm Apo Sonnar:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6638
If you think a zoom is too fuzzy to start out with for EFCS to make much difference, you'd be wrong:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6650
Jim
The 2 modes of camera induced vibration are mirror slap and shutter firing. Mirror lockup solves the mirror slap issue as does Live View shooting with the D8x0 cameras. EFCS helps with the shutter induced vibrations.
W/ respect to your tests, I assume the "I set the self-timer to two seconds" means you push the on camera shutter button to start the self timer. Or did you trip it with remote release? Two seconds probably would not be long enough to totally damp out vibrations from an on camera shutter push. Nikon indicates that the 3 second shutter delay setting (delay between mirror up and shutter) will not fully compensate for mirror slap either.
Unfortunately, the variations in tripods, head and field setup makes the actual level and duration of vibration unknowable. The best one can usually do is to follow best practices like mirror lockup/live view, EFCS, remote release, etc. I will say that I setup in a field of grass and the denseness of it required additional weight on the tripod just to get the setup reasonably stable. I don't use spike feet, but that is one instance that would have benefited from it.
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Hello,
When I owned both the Nikon D800 and D800E I used to shot mirror up when attached to a tripod when shooting with slow shutter speeds.
I use SMDV RFN-4s Wireless Shutter Release Remote for MC-30 Nikon which I have found to be invaluable and are now permanently attached to my two new Nikon D810 cameras.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SMDV-RFN-4s-Wireless-Shutter-Release-Remote-for-MC-30-Nikon-D300-D200-D100-D3X-/191430419453?pt=UK_Photography_DigitalCamAccess_RL&hash=item2c922463fd
Cheers
Simon
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Hello,
When I owned both the Nikon D800 and D800E I used to shot mirror up when attached to a tripod when shooting with slow shutter speeds.
I used a SMDV RFN-4s Wireless Shutter Release Remote for MC-30 Nikon which I have found to be invaluable and are now permanently attached to my two new Nikon D810 cameras.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SMDV-RFN-4s-Wireless-Shutter-Release-Remote-for-MC-30-Nikon-D300-D200-D100-D3X-/191430419453?pt=UK_Photography_DigitalCamAccess_RL&hash=item2c922463fd
Cheers
Simon
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W/ respect to your tests, I assume the "I set the self-timer to two seconds" means you push the on camera shutter button to start the self timer. Or did you trip it with remote release? Two seconds probably would not be long enough to totally damp out vibrations from an on camera shutter push.
I used a cord-operated remote. It was attached to the camera, and it's possible that activation could shake the camera. I test a setup by making exposures with both a 10-second and a 2-second delay before using 2 seconds, which I prefer because it makes the testing go faster.
Looking forward to your test results.
Jim
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Hello,
When I owned both the Nikon D800 and D800E I used to shot mirror up when attached to a tripod when shooting with slow shutter speeds.
I use SMDV RFN-4s Wireless Shutter Release Remote for MC-30 Nikon which I have found to be invaluable and are now permanently attached to my two new Nikon D810 cameras.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SMDV-RFN-4s-Wireless-Shutter-Release-Remote-for-MC-30-Nikon-D300-D200-D100-D3X-/191430419453?pt=UK_Photography_DigitalCamAccess_RL&hash=item2c922463fd
Cheers
Simon
Nice. I much prefer the 'Pro' operating paradigm of my D810 (and D300 before) to the 'Enthusiast' one of my D7100, but sometimes the little IR remote comes in handy. Will have to investigate this.
Do you need an MC-30 to make this work or doe sit work all by itself. I have an MC-20 which is more functional than the 30, but not quite as complex as the MC-36.
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The 2 modes of camera induced vibration are mirror slap and shutter firing. Mirror lockup solves the mirror slap issue as does Live View shooting with the D8x0 cameras. EFCS helps with the shutter induced vibrations.
W/ respect to your tests, I assume the "I set the self-timer to two seconds" means you push the on camera shutter button to start the self timer. Or did you trip it with remote release? Two seconds probably would not be long enough to totally damp out vibrations from an on camera shutter push. Nikon indicates that the 3 second shutter delay setting (delay between mirror up and shutter) will not fully compensate for mirror slap either.
Unfortunately, the variations in tripods, head and field setup makes the actual level and duration of vibration unknowable. The best one can usually do is to follow best practices like mirror lockup/live view, EFCS, remote release, etc. I will say that I setup in a field of grass and the denseness of it required additional weight on the tripod just to get the setup reasonably stable. I don't use spike feet, but that is one instance that would have benefited from it.
What is needed is the Exposure Delay Mode which you can set to up to 3 seconds. What this does is that after you have triggered the shot then in EFCS mode the shutter will be opened immediately and the delay set will expire and the exposure will be started and at the end of the exposure the shutter will be closed again. In other words after the first curtain is opened there is a configurable time delay until the exposure is started. This works with mirror lock and in live view. In live what I do is to double tap the shutter button to initiate the first curtain to go up and then after say 2 or 3 seconds the exposure starts. In this way the vibrations from the first curtain going up is dampened. I have put this into my menu for quick access. Also this only works with MLU mode.
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Hello,
No you don't need the MC-30 remote as in comes complete with receiver and transmitter.
Cheers
Simon
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Jim,
Thanks for the articles. This answers my question.
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Thanks for the articles. This answers my question.
It's a pleasure. Let me take it one step further and answer a question you didn't ask, but may have thought of. That question would be: "Now that EFCS has gotten rid of the first curtain's vibration, does the accelleration of the second curtain at the end of the exposure cause any bad effects?"
The answer is that the effects are measurable, but not very significant unless you're using really, really long lenses. Here are MTF50 comparisons with the Zeiss 135mm f/2 Apo Sonnar set to f/5.6 on a D810 with EFCS engaged. I'll have the details up on my blog site in a couple of days -- I'm a couple of posts ahead now.
The graphs compare MTF50 at various shutter speeds with that when the target is illuminated with a 1/13000 second strobe burst. Both the continuous and the strobe illuminants are 5500K to prevent diffraction differences from affecting the result.
(http://www.kasson.com/ll/D810-135HMTF.PNG)
(http://www.kasson.com/ll/D810-135VMTF.PNG)
The first graph is for horizontal lines, and the second is for vertical ones. The thick lines are the mean values, and the thin ones are three standard deviations higher and lower. You can see that the higher shutter speeds are more problematical than the lower ones, though the differences are small. That's because the time the second curtain is moving is a larger portion of the time the shutter is open when the shutter speeds are shorter.
You can also see that, since the shutter moves up and down, it affects the horizontal lines a bit more than the vertical ones.
You can also see that the effects are very small. One day, we'll have global shutters, and the curves will be virtually flat.
Jim
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Hello,
The day Nikon bring out a camera with a global shutter I will be one very happy photographer.
Cheers
Simon
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The day Nikon bring out a camera with a global shutter I will be one very happy photographer.
I hear you. The electronic shutter on the Sony alpha 7S is vibration-free, but it does take 1/30 second to activate.
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6450
For many types of subjects, it's very effective.
Jim
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Interesting test Jim. So this means that the electronic shutter in the Sony is a rolling shutter and that the second curtain is relatively slow, presumably due to read-out speed limitations ?
This limitation would not apply if it were a global shutter (as longed for by Simon above). However my understanding is that a global shutter requires extra circuit elements on each sensel to allow storage of sensel voltage until read-out after the end of the shutter activation period. This makes it harder to achieve high noise performance from the sensor.
I also understand that "lower end" cameras use a global shutter presumably because performance is not such an issue.
So where do we currently stand with the two shutter/sensor technologies ? Can anyone advise where the changeover from one technology currently occurs eg on some mirrorless ? Is it likely to be some time off before all cameras have a global shutter ?
Appreciate anyone's thoughts
Dave
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Interesting test Jim. So this means that the electronic shutter in the Sony is a rolling shutter and that the second curtain is relatively slow, presumably due to read-out speed limitations ?
Exactly right. In EFCS the electronic first curtain is a rolling reset that travels across the sensor at the same speed as the mechanical first curtain. The second curtain is mechanical in both cases.
In an all-electronic shutter, the rolling reset happens as in EFCS, but slower. Instead of the mechanical second curtain, the data is read out in a rolling fashion at the same speed as the reset. The faster the readout speed, the faster the rolling reset can be. You can see from the timing that in the a7s case, it appears to be a byproduct of the camera's video capabilities.
This limitation would not apply if it were a global shutter (as longed for by Simon above). However my understanding is that a global shutter requires extra circuit elements on each sensel to allow storage of sensel voltage until read-out after the end of the shutter activation period.
That is my understanding as well.
Jim
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Hi,
My take is that there is a conflict between low noise, high DR and global shutter. To utilise global shutter we may need to set aside half the sensor area for buffering. The trade off is 6 dB in lost DR, or so…
Best regards
Erik
Exactly right. In EFCS the electronic first curtain is a rolling reset that travels across the sensor at the same speed as the mechanical first curtain. The second curtain is mechanical in both cases.
In an all-electronic shutter, the rolling reset happens as in EFCS, but slower. Instead of the mechanical second curtain, the data is read out in a rolling fashion at the same speed as the reset. The faster the readout speed, the faster the rolling reset can be. You can see from the timing that in the a7s case, it appears to be a byproduct of the camera's video capabilities.
That is my understanding as well.
Jim
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My take is that there is a conflict between low noise, high DR and global shutter. To utilise global shutter we may need to set aside half the sensor area for buffering. The trade off is 6 dB in lost DR, or so…
Back side illumination to the rescue?
Jim
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Back side illumination to the rescue?
Jim
Yes that seems to be the way it's heading.
Dave