Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: mstevensphoto on January 12, 2015, 01:57:27 pm
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Hey folks, still evaluating choices. I'm not a machine gun press and hope shooter but the reality of shooting children and dogs is that I take between 120 and 300 captures in a session to show them 40-60 proofs. looking in lightroom I took 32,000 captures in the previous 3 quarters of business. with MF shutters rated much lower than my dslr (less than half) I'm wondering what real life expectations I should prepare myself for? I know that MF slows you down (something I really like about it) but still. am I looking at 10+ grand for a camera with a 3 year life?
MArk
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Hey folks, still evaluating choices. I'm not a machine gun press and hope shooter but the reality of shooting children and dogs is that I take between 120 and 300 captures in a session to show them 40-60 proofs. looking in lightroom I took 32,000 captures in the previous 3 quarters of business. with MF shutters rated much lower than my dslr (less than half) I'm wondering what real life expectations I should prepare myself for? I know that MF slows you down (something I really like about it) but still. am I looking at 10+ grand for a camera with a 3 year life?
MArk
The 645z does have a large mirror and shutter typical of 645 SLRs. I would expect at least at 30-50k shutter life with 100k possible. Of course just because the shutter needs replacement does not mean the camera is junk. I don't know how much Pentax charges to replace the shutter but currently expect to be without your camera for 8-10 weeks during repair. Yes, that is how long it is taking Pentax to service the 645D and the 645z. They need to go to Japan for repair (any) so it takes a while for the process to be complete.
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Pentax itself estimate 100,000 cycles: http://645z.ricoh-imaging.eu/en/pentax-645z-stories-by-the-engineers.html
If you're shooting that kind of volume, the camera is paying for itself over and over. A shutter-job is like filling the gas tank.
Assuming it is a shorter life than 35mm FF (which I don't assume), the slightly lower number of shots you're likely to take would even things out.
This does not strike me as a relevant consideration on whether to purchase the system.
- N.
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I would expect at least at 30-50k shutter life with 100k possible.
if I got 30-50k of an advertised 100k lifespan I would drive by ricoh's offices (conveniently located in my home town) and throw the damn thing through the window.
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Yeah, I think Ken is talking out of an orifice other than his lens mount ;D
And a shutter replacement is hardly equivalent to replacing the camera.
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And a shutter replacement is hardly equivalent to replacing the camera.
yeah, been there a couple of times (shutter replacement). it's a good thing too because I think Ricoh is on the 17th floor and I could never throw that high.
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Hey folks, still evaluating choices. I'm not a machine gun press and hope shooter but the reality of shooting children and dogs is that I take between 120 and 300 captures in a session to show them 40-60 proofs. looking in lightroom I took 32,000 captures in the previous 3 quarters of business. with MF shutters rated much lower than my dslr (less than half) I'm wondering what real life expectations I should prepare myself for? I know that MF slows you down (something I really like about it) but still. am I looking at 10+ grand for a camera with a 3 year life?
MArk
With a DF+ shutter repairs/replacements are provided at a repair center in the US. Also the body is separate (modular) from the back/sensor. So if your shutter does wear down at some point you can ship the body and have it back in a week or two (mostly depending on where you are and what speed of shipping you opt for), and in the meanwhile borrow or rent one from your dealer.
By the way, if buying a DF+ with an IQ2 back the body (along with the back and lenses purchased at the same time) has a 5 year warranty for up to 250,000 actuations.
Also with a DF+ you'd have the option of upgrading your body (without having to upgrade your sensor) to future Phase One bodies.
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if I got 30-50k of an advertised 100k lifespan I would drive by ricoh's offices (conveniently located in my home town) and throw the damn thing through the window.
A shutter's warranty or duty-cycle rating is never meant as an indication of how 100% of units produced will perform. It's a projection/average of how most units produced should be expected to perform. Premature shutter failure (that is a failure of the shutter prior to it's projected life or before it's warrantied number of actuations) is possible for ANY camera brand/make/model.
I have no knowledge specific to the Pentax 645D or 645Z, so this post is not meant to speak to those two bodies specifically. Like I said - this is true of any brand and any model.
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With a DF+ shutter repairs/replacements are provided at a repair center in the US. Also the body is separate (modular) from the back/sensor. So if your shutter does wear down at some point you can ship the body and have it back in a week or two (mostly depending on where you are and what speed of shipping you opt for), and in the meanwhile borrow or rent one from your dealer.
By the way, if buying a DF+ with an IQ2 back the body (along with the back and lenses purchased at the same time) has a 5 year warranty for up to 250,000 actuations.
Also with a DF+ you'd have the option of upgrading your body (without having to upgrade your sensor) to future Phase One bodies.
If it matters, I don't believe that a Phamiya shutter/mirrorbox will survive 250K actuations without replacement - but I am convinced that if Doug writes that warranty then he will make sure you get that repair or replacement. :)
BTW, on a Canon pro series dSLR, shutter replacement is one hour, mirrorboxes and shutters are AFAIK designed to be quickly replaced. I don't know how the Pentax is built, but Pentax have been making pro cameras for a long time :)
Edmund
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If you want more info: http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/48-pentax-medium-format/
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Also with a DF+ you'd have the option of upgrading your body (without having to upgrade your sensor) to future Phase One bodies.
Sorry to be *that guy* but everytime a dealer mentions this I want to ROFLOL.
At USD$8500 for the *entire* Pentaz 645Z compared to the USD$35,000 for just the IQ250 one could go through 4 iterations of the Pentaxes including NEW sensors every time for every IQ250 that you buy. IMO the major advantage of MFDBs vs 645z/S2 is the ability to be used on tech cams and view cameras. But to say that one could upgrade the body without upgrading the sensor is ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? in terms of value proposition as an advantage to the Phase ecosystem.
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Sorry to be *that guy* but everytime a dealer mentions this I want to ROFLOL.
At USD$8500 for the *entire* Pentaz 645Z compared to the USD$35,000 for just the IQ250 one could go through 4 iterations of the Pentaxes including NEW sensors every time for every IQ250 that you buy. IMO the major advantage of MFDBs vs 645z/S2 is the ability to be used on tech cams and view cameras. But to say that one could upgrade the body without upgrading the sensor is ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? in terms of value proposition as an advantage to the Phase ecosystem.
Is the Pentax really still $8500, or has the price started to fall in the US?
Edmund
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I had a 40D that had the shutter die at 14k, a 1ds3 that failed are 60k but never had to replace the shutter on anything else.
A bit like DVD lasers, they can go at any time and could exceed the rating too.
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2 months to repair a camera? Perhaps there is an opportunity here for an independent company to fill the void?
In London, Happyblad can repair Hasselblad H bodies and lenses very quickly. I dropped of my H4D for a new auxiliary shutter on the Monday and collected it on the Wednesday.
Yes. That is true today. There has been talks about Pentax / Ricoh improving service but nothing concrete as of yet.
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Yes. That is true today. There has been talks about Pentax / Ricoh improving service but nothing concrete as of yet.
Could I ask what this assertion is based on? Do you have a 645z? Has is it been in for service? What was required and what was your experience with it?
- N.
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I had the unfortunate experience of two shutter-related failures on the same 645D, about 2 years apart. Both were repaired at no $ cost to me; the first was done under warranty. The second was out of warranty, but it was a situation of very poor customer service requiring some management intervention to get control of, as a result of which the cost of the repair was comped. Quoted repair cost was ~$1000 CDN in the first instance, and ~$1200 CDN in the second. Same body mind you, but slightly different work involved in the two cases I believe.
In both cases the 645D had to go to Japan for the work. The round-trip took 10 weeks in the first case, which I thought was unbelievable; this was in mid-2012. But it was a lark compared to the second case starting July of last year, in which the camera took 22 weeks to arrive back in my hands. While the 645D was in the middle of that 22 week run to Japan, I also had a failure on my 645Z and then a week later my 25mm prime lens came apart in my hands. They went back as well, and both took nearly 10 weeks to return, coming back at the same time as the 645D. This leads me to believe at least some of the issue was that my simultaneous service cases got balled up together and were batched for resolution rather than being dealt with each on its own & returned ASAP.
These and other Ricoh service experiences have painfully illustrated the extreme opportunity for improvement in service level targeting and service management within Ricoh. Right now, I love the system and still have no regrets investing heavily into it. It fits me to a T and I have no intention of giving up on my kit. But if I never have to deal with Ricoh service again, it will be too soon.
I should say I'm most likely a boundary case, and it would be unfortunate luck indeed for anyone else to go through what I've gone through. But if it happened to me it could in theory happen to others; other than the fact that I shoot in digital era volumes rather than film-era frame counts :) there's nothing unusual about my usage profile. So invest in the system if you like and want what it can enable you to do. But be prepared to cover yourself if the gear goes wrong, because Ricoh service is not even remotely operating at a professional level as of Q3-Q4 2014. Because I was mid-upgrade last year, I happened to have 3 bodies at the same time -- a pair of D's and one Z. I needed them, because 2 of them were down in an overlapping period of almost 10 weeks.
Still, as others have pointed out, the $ cost of doing this is at least approachable for people who are able to seriously invest in a medium format system. It's more the enthusiast or pro-on-a-budget who's at risk if they can't invest in sufficient backup gear to cover a major chunk of downtime while keeping on working.
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Could I ask what this assertion is based on? Do you have a 645z? Has is it been in for service? What was required and what was your experience with it?
- N.
Had the 645D. Sold it. No issues with my particular camera. Inquired and asked other users about service experiences and the answers were always the same, if you need to send the camera for repair, any repair or service, expect to be without the camera 8-10 weeks. Ask around, you will get the same info like the one posted by R. H. right before this post.
Wish it were different since the Pentax 645 cameras are really nice. Unfortunately it is not.
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It will be interesting to see what kind of service programme they introduce for the "Z". If they are serious about it, which all other signs suggest they are, something of substance is required.
- N.
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It will be interesting to see what kind of service programme they introduce for the "Z". If they are serious about it, which all other signs suggest they are, something of substance is required.
- N.
Not to cut Pentax any slack on what seems to be a professional system, it would do them well to have a better repair system.
Then again it's the only new larger than 35mm camera that allows most users to buy a backup without drastic pain.
Not that you want to but it's difficult to shoot a paying gig without equal backups or at least equal enough.
IMO
BC
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Not that you want to but it's difficult to shoot a paying gig without equal backups or at least equal enough.
IMO
BC
The OP already has a working kit; in this situation 10 weeks downtime isn't deadly but just an annoyance ...
Edmund
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The OP already has a working kit; in this situation 10 weeks downtime isn't deadly but just an annoyance ...
Edmund
I get that, but the thing is when one is down so long, you don't have a backup, so you carry around a Canon or Nikon for backup and that mean more lenses . . . etc.
Don't get me wrong under 10k for medium format is great, it just needs a better system for peeps that make money with a camera.
IMO
BC
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it just needs a better system for peeps that make money with a camera.
BC
Absolutely. 100%. Gear goes down. Even the best. If you're making a living with it, there has to be reliable pro-grade service.
My understanding is that this point is not lost on Pentax, and something may be coming. We'll see. I'm lucky enough to to deal with one of the best reps in the business and have a close relationship with one of the best camera shops anywhere, but at the end of the day local good will and loaners can only go so far. The parent corp has to step-up systemically.
Here's hoping...
- N.
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I get that, but the thing is when one is down so long, you don't have a backup, so you carry around a Canon or Nikon for backup and that mean more lenses . . . etc.
Don't get me wrong under 10k for medium format is great, it just needs a better system for peeps that make money with a camera.
IMO
BC
Let's keep things in perspective folks - a camera going belly-up is a real nuisance, but not a catastrophe :)
I don't think most provincial hospitals would scare up a spare specialist surgeon on the same day if the scheduled doctor has a stomach upset :)
Edmund
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Sorry to be *that guy* but everytime a dealer mentions this I want to ROFLOL.
At USD$8500 for the *entire* Pentaz 645Z compared to the USD$35,000 for just the IQ250 one could go through 4 iterations of the Pentaxes including NEW sensors every time for every IQ250 that you buy. IMO the major advantage of MFDBs vs 645z/S2 is the ability to be used on tech cams and view cameras.[...]
I believe the OP was considering a 645Z or a Credo 40 kit (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/mamiya-credo-special-promo). At $14k for a [Credo 40, 80LS, and DF+] vs $13k for a [645Z+90mm] or $10k for a [645Z+55mm] the modularity and upgradeability of the body becomes more salient to the cost structure long term. You don't buy a Credo 40 because the body and back can be upgraded separate from the sensor - but it's a nice perk!
Other advantages (in addition to compatibility with tech/view cameras), that may or may not be relevant to your needs include professional support, robust high-speed fully featured tethering, a full suite of modern leaf-shutter lenses with flash sync up to 1/1600th, a touchscreen interface providing focus mask, customizable exposure warning and histogram which don't interfere with the view of the image or reduce its size, auto horizon correction, auto perspective correction and customizable touch-driven grids and guides.
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I believe the OP was considering a 645Z or a Credo 40 kit (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/mamiya-credo-special-promo). At $14k for a [Credo 40, 80LS, and DF+] vs $13k for a [645Z+90mm] or $10k for a [645Z+55mm] the modularity and upgradeability of the body becomes more salient to the cost structure long term. You don't buy a Credo 40 because the body and back can be upgraded separate from the sensor - but it's a nice perk!
Other advantages (in addition to compatibility with tech/view cameras), that may or may not be relevant to your needs include professional support, robust high-speed fully featured tethering, a full suite of modern leaf-shutter lenses with flash sync up to 1/1600th, a touchscreen interface providing focus mask, customizable exposure warning and histogram which don't interfere with the view of the image or reduce its size, auto horizon correction, auto perspective correction and customizable touch-driven grids and guides.
Doug - very true.
And on the 645Z you get good liveview, 6400 ISO, fast autofocus and weather-sealing.
I guess both systems have their strong points - it would be nice if you could be cloned so that Pentax could tick the "Doug Peterson hotline" checkbox :)
Edmund
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It is feasible to rent from LensRentals.
Best regards
Erik
The OP already has a working kit; in this situation 10 weeks downtime isn't deadly but just an annoyance ...
Edmund
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A shutter's warranty or duty-cycle rating is never meant as an indication of how 100% of units produced will perform. It's a projection/average of how most units produced should be expected to perform. Premature shutter failure (that is a failure of the shutter prior to it's projected life or before it's warrantied number of actuations) is possible for ANY camera brand/make/model.
I have no knowledge specific to the Pentax 645D or 645Z, so this post is not meant to speak to those two bodies specifically. Like I said - this is true of any brand and any model.
I would say this is true of any piece of technology, especially electronics, whether you rate service life just as an average or mean time before failure, you also have to consider the circumstances under which the device is used.
Did you know that the typical flash bulb is "only" rated for 1000 or 3000 flashes on a technical level? Obviously they last longer, because unlike a bulb tester in a lab, you won't be rapidly firing your flash off at full power until it explodes. so 100k shutter actuations - at what temperature? how often? bursts or single shots? and so on.
The only consolation is that statistically machines fail immediately or near the rated life, meaning that a decent burn-in period is enough to weed out most duds, I could safely guess that all new cameras ship with at least a few hundred activations on the shutter even if the counter is zeroed out.
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At least the shutter life issues will soon go away. My GH4 can go up to 8MP without ever using the mechanical shutter, and it can extract frames from 4K video, and it does not use a mirror. Of course, the aperture and focus are still mechanical.
Now if someone can just fix the issues with sensor digital rot, and rotting cover glass or IR filters ...
Edmund
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I can't honestly see any Pentax service in the near of slightly distance future other than in Japan.
My reasoning? I took delivery of a Pentax 645z yesterday and the serial number is 7988.
In order to justify the cost of a dedicated service centre in other countries I think Ricoh needs more cameras sold.
Back of the envelope calculation here, but assuming they make 50% profit on the RRP that's only about $32 million dollars worldwide.
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I can't honestly see any Pentax service in the near of slightly distance future other than in Japan.
My reasoning? I took delivery of a Pentax 645z yesterday and the serial number is 7988.
In order to justify the cost of a dedicated service centre in other countries I think Ricoh needs more cameras sold.
Back of the envelope calculation here, but assuming they make 50% profit on the RRP that's only about $32 million dollars worldwide.
Assuming they sell 1000 of them per year in the US, that's about 5 million dollars a year of sales. I'd expect a failure rate of less than 15% per year, which means about 150 cameras to fix in some way per year, less than one per workday day. How much does adding a tech part-time at an existing workshop cost?
Edmund
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Since we're skewing so far off topic, I'll throw in on where the conversation is going. What Hass and Phase have over Pentax comes down to a professional dealer network who charge a premium for a premium product. These dealers are knowledgeable, resourceful and will help their customer in any way possible. I don't expect Pentax to have this same level of service and support right out of the gate, and I don't know if it's possible to do such given their pricing model.
To be taken seriously, they will need to invest in a EU and US service center, even if their repair ability is limited and they have to forward on some types of repairs. It is critical to their long-term success in this market to improve their service turn around of the D and Z customers and current P645 glass. The horror stories are such that it leaves some potential customers on the fence looking at other options. The rumors of a high MP Canon should have Pentax working overtime to get as many folks into their system as possible.
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I can't honestly see any Pentax service in the near of slightly distance future other than in Japan.
My reasoning? I took delivery of a Pentax 645z yesterday and the serial number is 7988.
Hi,
Assuming for a moment that they do use sequential serial numbers, they are probably selling them almost as fast as they can manufacture them, say a thousand a month. Lens production also has to keep up. The equipment population will grow steadily.
In order to justify the cost of a dedicated service centre in other countries I think Ricoh needs more cameras sold.
Many companies, e.g. Canon, train existing (multi-brand) repair centers for a selection of the products. That's a training for the specifics of a device, not basic training on how to use the right screwdriver. Good product design also incorporates servicability (like using only a small number of different screws, and very few screws to disassemble whole modules that can be swapped and the faulty ones serviced in more detail at a different location). Centralized spare parts locations will reduce inventory costs and speed up availability for servicing.
Also, with a relatively modest number of units sold, it's likely that repairs will remain at modest absolute levels as well. It's not like Pentax has never built a camera or complex optical systems before.
But as stated, having a few rental options in place can already relieve a lot of pressure for the short term. And those serious about their business can consider buying more than a single unit, as a contingency plan.
Cheers,
Bart
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Since we're skewing so far off topic, I'll throw in on where the conversation is going. What Hass and Phase have over Pentax comes down to a professional dealer network who charge a premium for a premium product. These dealers are knowledgeable, resourceful and will help their customer in any way possible.
I think you got it partly right: All these dealers charge premium prices, some of them like Doug are knowledgeable, resourceful and will help their customer in any way possible.
Edmund
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How much does adding a tech part-time at an existing workshop cost?
Much, much more than you'd think if you want to do it right.
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I can't speak for Phase, I've used their cams but never called in for service.
But a leaf back I had issues with had to go to Israel via an agent.
Anything I needed doing for my H3DII 39 before I moved to the H4D50, be that a spring failing on one of the connection pins, to a lens needing a new clutch mechanism all had to go back to Europe.
Before buying the 645z I almost bought a UK model but I called Johnsons, the official Ricoh service centre here and they said anything related to the Z except sensor cleaning goes back to Japan.
But they'll be able to send it back to Pentax for me.
It's a far cry from Canon CPS who'll fix a 1DX in 4 days. But we want these exotic sensors right? ;) And boy is my 1DX looking a bit long in the tooth now sensor wise relative to everything out there :D
From my point of view, the service levels are all the same to me (excluding Phase One for the reason I started the comment with). Heck, just have a Pentax service centre in Europe somewhere that can handle everything, that would be great.
As a slightly on / off topic point. It was getting to the point I was worried to use my Hasselblad for fear of a big service bill if it goes wrong. No user should have to go through that experience and I'm reminded that these are luxury cameras for people who make lots of money. A bit like having a baby, there's no point getting one if you aren't committed to supporting it. Now, I have a cam that I can use in the rain, at weddings and has high ISO. I can make money from this one. I couldn't with the blad.
And I will miss my blad when it sells (it's on the for sale section) as I love holding it in my hands and shooting with it.
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Actually, I can see the case for all 645z service being centralized in Japan. The volumes may not justify otherwise. But Fedex will get my box to Osaka in 24-36 hours. So five-day turn-around on serious pro repairs is reasonable. Where in the world is largely irrelevant. It just has to be fast. And, ideally, they should stock a few service loaners for pros.
Considering the premium one pays for service plans on Phase or Leica, and the insanely higher costs on those products, I can live with something like the cost of Fedex to Japan for out-of-warranty service once every few years. It just has to be fast and done right.
- N.
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Actually, I can see the case for all 645z service being centralized in Japan. The volumes may not justify otherwise. But Fedex will get my box to Osaka in 24-36 hours. So five-day turn-around on serious pro repairs is reasonable. Where in the world is largely irrelevant. It just has to be fast. And, ideally, they should stock a few service loaners for pros.
Considering the premium one pays for service plans on Phase or Leica, and the insanely higher costs on those products, I can live with something like the cost of Fedex to Japan for out-of-warranty service once every few years. It just has to be fast and done right.
- N.
Exactly.
The fact that the 645z needs to go to Japan for repair does not justify the current 8-10 week turnaround. Like you mentioned, shipping time to Japan can be pretty fast and reliable. So I do not think a local (for each market) repair facility is necessary just better communication and follow up which can be solved by regional dealer/representative network and maybe a prioritized repair service for the 645z cameras in Japan. Right now people ship their 645D/Z's and are mostly in the dark about the status of the repair. For weeks on end. That is just not acceptable.
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Has anyone any actual experience of Pentax service, specifically with the 645z?
I had to send a DP3 to Sigma and it was there and back in four weeks and that included Christmas and New Year.
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thanks for all the replies so far. Digital Transitions was so kind as to send me a rep and a trial credo 40 kit yesterday. I have to say their people are quite lovely.
related to my original inquiry - I just don't consider anyone to be a professional without proper backup equipment. As someone pointed out you need to at least have a "job finishing" kit if not exact copies. Forever I've backed up my 5dmkIII with a 7d and now those would be the backup to the MF system. sure it's more stuff, but franky I operate with multiple cameras and multiple pelican cases of stuff anyway. It may actually prove nice to grab the 5d here and there. I certainly put the 5d down for the 7d on occasion when I have need for better ai focus. (it saddens me that the 7 is so much better at tracking movement).
in the event of needed repair one might consider some third party options. I forget the name of the joint in Tempe but I've had fabulous results with them putting things back together. Also, as mentioned. any proper commercial shoot should cover the cost of a backup rental if need be. lens rentals and borrow lenses are both great and here I've got at least three places locally.
I appreciate everyone's feedback so far!