Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: Graeme Nattress on December 17, 2005, 08:10:10 pm
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CHeck out www.red.com
It's early stages yet, but this promises to be a revolutionary video camera. I was wondering on people's thoughts from a photographer's point of view.
Graeme
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They have my attention!
Chris S
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The person behind the camera is Jim Jannard of Oakley. Basicaly he got fed up of poor quality cameras and companies that didn't listen. He's also a camera nut.
But he wants feedback, feature request etc. He wants to listen!
Graeme
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I just want to know how much he paid for his domain name...
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:-) Don't know!
But what do you think about the camera?
Graeme
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I read an interview on the hd for indies site, and the hype reminds me of when the segway came out.... but the specs sound sweet.... although the storage issues sound scary! wait till NAB... wait till NAB.....blah, blah....
If i won the lottery... I would be tempted to try to create a beast similar! how about a nitrogin cooled phaseone 16mp chip at 24p?... you think fiberchannel, an xserve on a cart, hassy lens's, .... blow away imax?... Iv'e read panavision had a 12mp 24p camera that is p-mount!
I have a sony hdv camera, and it paid for it's self the first week I had it... I use it as I use my phaseone back shooting stills, but create non-static images with it... i.e. beverage pours, etc.
been fantisizing about building a 35mm lens adaptor like the guerilla 35 or mini 35... would love the shallow depth of field.... might even build something with a lensbaby attached...
by the way... I can't wait to try your FCP plug-ins!
me (http://www.witzke-studio.com)
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Am I missing something?
It seems to be a web site high on nifty looking pages that load slowly, but low on information.
Robert
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It will be low on info until NAB. There are things that, from a business perspective, we just can't release now. At NAB we'll be able to tell you more.
But this is not a fantasy product. It's very real, and if I have anything to do with it, will be gobsmackingly good.
Graeme
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do you have anything to do with it?
sorry about the orange type above.... wasn't thinking right.
witzke-studio (http://www.witzke-studio.com)
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Indeed, I do have a lot to do with it :-) I'm one of the industry experts on the development team. So, yes, I'm very biassed towards this product, but I can tell you this, that we'd all not be onboard developing this project if it wasn't the coolest project we'd ever heard of.
Graeme
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I have been looking all over for information on this camera and can't find anything but vague promises. They are not vague about the chip, which sounds great, but everything else surrounding it.
CMOS chips with greater than 4K resolution already exist. In fact, chip technology really isn't the problem, since most readers of this site probably have better technology in their still cameras. Recording all that information is much harder than generating it. This is a subject the RED website is mute about. The one picture they have of their camera does not seem to include a recorder or tether of any kind. Then again, it doesn't really look like much of a camera either. (It does bear a striking resemblance to Oakley sunglasses.)
I wasn't at NAB and haven't heard whether anything was revealed there. The whole thing looks strange, though, because they are very tightlipped about any details. 4K resolution is fine, but nothing new. Recording it without massive amounts of compression - now that would be an achievement. So far, all I see is promises and flash with virtually no substance.
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Well, CMOS of that resolution, 11.4mp that does 60fps is quite unique. There will be multiple output ports - high speed serial to RED RAID / RAM or 3rd party box, dual and single link HD SDI to traditional recording, computer or DDR, and you put a digital magazine in the camera itself for on-board recording. That magazine can be flash or hard drive, and has a quad port e-sata, fw400, fw800 and USB 2.0 interface to connect it to your NLE.
The video that goes onto the magazine is recorded using RED code, a new codec that's based upon wavelet technology.
What is new though, is the price - $17,500, which for a video camera of this resolution and form-factor is revolutionary.
We hope to have the engineering done by the end of the year and for the camera to go on sale 1st quarter next year.
Pity you couldn't have made it to NAB as it would have been great to meet you and tell you all about the camera.
Graeme
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I've been following this project for a while, when I first heard about it at DVXuser.com. I'm really glad you guys are doing this, and the price is amazing, since I was expecting it to cost 50-100k. I really hope all of this will become a reality.
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I'm working full time on making sure it happens!
Graeme
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The person behind the camera is Jim Jannard of Oakley. Basicaly he got fed up of poor quality cameras and companies that didn't listen. He's also a camera nut. But he wants feedback, feature request etc. He wants to listen!
Graeme
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Well, I appreciate for your concern about our feedback. I like that about any company that ask those questions.
> If using Bayer CFA, then it's a good idea to use higher count pixels/photodiodes
> Increase more dynamic range, >12 stops
> Don't use really aggressive 'low-pass' filter in front of the sensor, and have the option to take it out if it doesn't degrade image quality
> Many manufacturer uses 14 bits A/D at photodiodes' site now, may be 14 bits is the very least for your A/D conversion
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>12 stops - that's what we're aiming for!
Bayer 12mp - should be more than adequate to extract enough data from the cine lenses used, and is overkill for modern digital projection.
As for OLPF, we'll use the mathematically correct amount - not too little not too much. I don't know if the form factor will allow it to be removed though. Bayer without a OLPF look awful to my eyes.
The sensor is 12bit A to D - can't change that until we work on the next camera, but it should be more than adequate for our initial needs, especially with the constraints of running at 60fps.
Graeme
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>12 stops - that's what we're aiming for!
Bayer 12mp - should be more than adequate to extract enough data from the cine lenses used, and is overkill for modern digital projection.
The sensor is 12bit A to D - can't change that until we work on the next camera, but it should be more than adequate for our initial needs, especially with the constraints of running at 60fps.
Graeme
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> That would be good if could get >73dB
> Why would 60fps put a constraints in using 14bits A/D, is not that much more isn't it?
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We're certainly aiming for more than the 66db, bu as to how high we get, we'll have to wait and see!
As for the 14bit, I'm not a sensor engineer, so I really don't know on that. All I know is that what we're getting is the best we can get for our needs.
Graeme
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It definitely looks promising enough.
Is it possible to use following lenses?
- Master Prime Lenses from Carl Zeiss
- Ultra Prime Lenses from Carl Zeiss
- DigiZoom™ Lenses fro Carl Zeiss
- DigiPrime® Lenses
Regrads
Caracalla
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As long as the image from the lens covers the super 35mm frame, and has a PL mount, it will work right out of the box. The DigiPrimes and DigiZooms are for 2/3" sensors are they not? If so, they won't produce a big enough image. We will have a 2/3" mount in the future, but then you're limited to a 2k centre crop of the sensor, not the full 4k.
Graeme
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So, would you say that it will definetley work
with?
- Master Prime Lenses from Carl Zeiss
- Ultra Prime Lenses from Carl Zeiss
as they cover the super 35mm frame.
Perhaps if you could visit their web site and confirm
if we need any adapters etc. I would appreciate it.
Regrads
Caracalla
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Yes, they'll work.
Graeme
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The sensor is 12bit A to D - can't change that until we work on the next camera, but it should be more than adequate for our initial needs, especially with the constraints of running at 60fps.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=67022\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am replying from a context of CMOS still cameras, so the application may be a bit off.
It seemed to me at one time that 12-bit digitization was the main bottleneck to DR in Canon CMOS DSLRs, as ISO 1600 collects much more real-world, absolute range at the darker end, which is not present in the shadows of ISO 100. I thought that the reason was only 4096 (or less) levels, but recent experiments indicate that ISO 100 simply has about 7x as much noise, relative to absolute sensor exposure. ISO 100 is the noisiest ISO, in an absolute sense (it is quieter in practice, only because the metering calls for more absolute exposure at ISO 100). Posterizing the ISO 1600 shadows by robbing them of the 4 least significant bits does not detract from them in any significant way, and they still look much cleaner than ISO 100 with the same exposure index.
Conclusion - readout noise is currently the most significant limiting factor in dynamic range. A clean 12-bit sensor readout (readout noise at half the single bit level) would give spectacular DR at the pixel level, and even more at the image level (especially video, which "averages" pixel values in our perception, over time, while stills only average over space). IMO, Digitization of more than 12 bits of depth is of no particular value until readout noise is conquered.
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Att: Graeme Nattress
Good News!
Who should we contact there and how soon
we can test the camera. I will bring three of
our MasterPrime & UltraPrime lenses.
I will have to make sure that they have all accessories
prior to our arrival.
I hope that "Red" delivers the quality because
it is such a god idea.
Regards
Caracalla
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We're still currently in development. Our engineering target is the end of the year, so you can't test the camera right away. If you're interested, we'll be at CineGear Expo Friday and Saturday in LA, and at IBC in Amsterdam in September.
You can email myself graeme@red.com if you want to keep in contact, or if you're interested enough, we're taking deposits from people who wnat to get in the queue for the camera when it's released for sale next year.
Graeme
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Att: Graeme Nattress
I was under the impression that their statement comes from the fact that they
actually have number of cameras for testing. Anyway still believe it is a good idea,
only it changes the idea I had originally of using it right now on the current music video projects which could have literally exposed the quality and push the product in the centre of the industry attention.
I guess I will have to wait.
Regards
Caracalla
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Sorry about that - we've all got to wait. I'm working night and day to get my aspects of the camera working, as are the other engineers and developers on the project. It's hard work, but fun work. We're talking about it now to generate interest, and feedback - we've already had great suggestions that will make it into camera, so the process is working.
Graeme
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What is new though, is the price - $17,500, which for a video camera of this resolution and form-factor is revolutionary.
That's pretty cheap for a camera that takes cine lenses, how much is the onbaord datastore device? At that price, I could see many film schools dropping the DV cameras and going to real digital cine cameras. The 60 fps is pretty impressive too, I assume the frame rate is really variable from about 15 up to 60. If you take a look at the specs for the Dalsa made camera, it will only do 30 (or so) fps. It's really too bad you have to use a Bayer pattern, but to hit the back focus, there really isn't another way (unless you can get a large Foveon chip).
As long as the image from the lens covers the super 35mm frame, and has a PL mount, it will work right out of the box. The DigiPrimes and DigiZooms are for 2/3" sensors are they not? If so, they won't produce a big enough image. We will have a 2/3" mount in the future, but then you're limited to a 2k centre crop of the sensor, not the full 4k.
Is that 2/3 inch mount the same as a 2/3 inch mount for a typical 3 chip video camera? If it is, the back focus length is so long that you should be able to fit some kind of optical adapter that would match/change the back focus, and expand the image circle to cover the entire sensor. I'm not completely up to speed on the cine camera specs, but I've been working with (and repairing) broadcast level video cameras for the past 15+ years.
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Yes, the 2/3" adapter would be for broadcast lenses with much more backfocus length. We might be able to adapt them to fill more of the sensor. We'll have to wait and see on that.
Graeme
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ATT: Graeme
I hope you will keep this thread alive with some new `RED`info.
Is everything going as planned?
Regards
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All is going good. We're working on a number of fronts, including getting more movies and images made to show people what the sensor is capable of, while we work on the industrial and electronic design, both of which are on track.
Graeme
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ATT: Graeme
Some extra news on`RED`, Technical info? Release date? etc.
Regards
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I think we're currently looking at around March for release. Design and work continues. At IBC we announed REDCODE RAW that will record 4k onto the internal flash ram or hard drive. We also talked about REDCINE which is a super app for dealing with RED footage and performing RAW conversion on RAW video.
Graeme
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Perhaps, future announcements, Shows/News, etc. could be posted here also?
Regards.
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[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']Graeme,
It has been one LOOOOOOOOOONG Year since my Last Post I want to know what is happening?
News, Prices, Availability, Promotions....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/span]
Regards
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Lots is happening. We have shipped 100 cameras, which are out in teh field and being used now. As happens with highly technical devices, there's some issues we're fixing or have fixed, including new PL mount that has adjustable back focus, rather than use shims. It's very nice.
We have released the first editions of our RED software, RedAlert! and REDCine, Quicktime codec, and some files you can use with them.
We're working on lots of improvements and completing the camera featureset at the moment, and when the new PL mounts are ready we'll be shipping out more cameras.
Graeme
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Graeme,
What's this I keep hearing about a "mini"-Red one?
Is there any truth to it? Any official intel you can share with us?
thanks,
Mike
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Officially we announced a "pocket professional" camera. Details TBD.
Graeme
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Agh...corporate red tape (unintentional pun) :-)
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We don't do tape :-) Just drives or solid state memory.
Graeme
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You do know you can suck the fun out of commenting on this board, don't you? :-D
Long live solid state, it's been a long time coming....
About the pocket...is it just a plan/concept, or can we expect this camera in the next few years?
It better have interchangable lenses... (take notes, this is important!) :-)
regards
Mike