Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: stevebri on November 29, 2014, 04:21:45 pm
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There are some very clever people out there and I may need your input here...
My prints are now coming out the right colour, just 2/3rds of a stop too dark and I have no idea why...
I profile my Dell 2209WA every 4 or 5 weeks
I profile my papers and also profile each new box or roll when it comes in
I use a ColorMunki Photo
Lightroom 5.7 on windoze 7 64 bit
LR manages colours, Epson driver (7800) is set to 'no color adjustment'
What I have done so far..
Printed on both roll and sheet to confirm no dodgy paper (Canson Baryta photographique) result same problem on both sheet and roll
Printed via P/Shop and I get the exact same result (as I should)
Re profiled the monitor with a lower brightness... same result
Re profiled the papers... same result
uninstalled and re installed the monitor driver (it is/was latest version)
Monitor is what... 5 yrs old at most....
I print mostly B&W and the tones are bang on... no hints of green or magenta, true neutral B&W's (as you can get) and I have been happy with my colour managed loop for a long time...
Thoughts anyone....?
I'm not double profiling, got no issues with computer or printer...
My only thoughts are the screen must have gradually become just too bright and I need to bring the brightness as far down as possible... I'll do that now but if anyone has anything to add that might help (please don't bash the hardware, bash my incompetence instead)
Many thanks
S
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The two thoughts that occur to me off the top of my head are:
(1) Did you by accident hit a control that brightened your display fooling you into adjusting the photos daker than they should be?
(2) If this outcome turned up just after a re-profiling, perhaps one of your new profiles is no good and you should go back to a previous one to check for that.
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Make sure where in the workflow the problem is coming from ... 1st step is to load up a known target reference file such as bill atkinsons, Andrew Rodney’s or Jack Flesher’s which is found at outbackphoto.com. I don’t have the links handy but should be able to find one through searching these forums or web search.
If it is dark on the display, and prints correctly, look at your display profile/luminosity setup. If it looks good on the display and prints poorly then your printing workflow has something awry.
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I could be missing something, but seems to me that both the Atkinson and Outback targets re no longer offered on their websites.
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Jack's image can be downloaded from the link below, it contains elements from Bill's test image so the two are almost the same.
http://www.jirvana.com/printer_tests/PrinterEvaluationImage_V002.zip (http://www.jirvana.com/printer_tests/PrinterEvaluationImage_V002.zip)
Rich
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Super, that one is the same as the Outback - Jack and they obviously worked together on it with Bill's consent. It's a great target for these purposes.
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Thanks so much for the early replies... all very helpful but not the answer to my problem.
I've tried a different image to test with (Jack's) I've tried different paper with a new profile for it... all still giving me darker prints.
I'm starting to think it's the monitor coming to the end of it's life... When I simply turn down the brightness to match the print it struggles to show much difference when getting darker, say the lower 30% (if 0 is dark and 100 is bright). If I push the scale up to brightest, it starts to get bright 'easily' from 50-100.. If that makes sense.
So, just manually lowering the brightness and contrast after making an advanced monitor profile with ColorMunki (setting the luminance level to 90) Jack's print comes out as it should.
Also mine too with this manual tweak come out closer tahn before and not 2/3rd of a stop too dark..
I just don't feel comfortable having to manually tweak a good monitor after a good calibrator has done it's thing...
Anyone else experienced this ...?
Steve
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See Mark D Segal's first post:
- If the prints are suddenly darker than they were, something must have suddenly changed, obviously. It seems unlikely to be a gradual thing, like monitor ageing. Can you think of anything about computer, monitor, software or workflow that might have changed?
- Have you tried going back to a profile from before things went wrong?
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I'm not familiar with the ColorMunki software so I may be asking the wrong question. I use NEC Spectraview with my monitor and it allows me to set the intensity in cd/m(squared) and I never have to touch any of the monitor controls as the software controls everything (don't know if this is the same with the Dell model you have). How does your calibration software set this? Are you sure you are using the exact same intensity setting? Regardless of the age of the monitor you should reliably be able to set the intensity; color response may be more of a factor as the monitor ages. My NEC is four years old now and it's the only monitor I have (use it for general work stuff and photography). I still get a reliable profile when I do it every six weeks with a low deltaE. If the monitor is too bright and you have ruled out wrong settings, etc. I could be that your ColorMunki is not giving a reliable reading.
Certainly with the Flesher test print you should be able to cross check your monitor intensity setting.
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I'm not familiar with the ColorMunki software so I may be asking the wrong question. I use NEC Spectraview with my monitor and it allows me to set the intensity in cd/m(squared) and I never have to touch any of the monitor controls as the software controls everything (don't know if this is the same with the Dell model you have). How does your calibration software set this? Are you sure you are using the exact same intensity setting? Regardless of the age of the monitor you should reliably be able to set the intensity; color response may be more of a factor as the monitor ages. My NEC is four years old now and it's the only monitor I have (use it for general work stuff and photography). I still get a reliable profile when I do it every six weeks with a low deltaE. If the monitor is too bright and you have ruled out wrong settings, etc. I could be that your ColorMunki is not giving a reliable reading.
Certainly with the Flesher test print you should be able to cross check your monitor intensity setting.
By intensity, if talking cd/m^2 you mean display brightness I think. This is one of several parameters one sets before profiling the display. Once the profile is made, as no doubt you know, it is only valid for that set of parameters. If any of those basic parameters are changed by intent or by accident, the profile is no longer valid. A profile cannot go bad unless it somehow gets corrupted. More than likely, if the monitor were the problem and the problem were sudden, somehow or other parameters were interfered with. If the display parameters and profile cannot match the correct printed output of the printer target, and if resetting the parameters and reprofiling the display does not help, more than likely it is a monitor hardware problem. It would be useful for the OP to run a print of this target using "Let Printer Manage Colours", selecting the correct paper in the Printer Driver Dialog. It should produce a decent result - perhaps not optimal, but decent. If it doesn't, one would then suspect something wrong with the printer.
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Mark, I think we are saying the same thing. I only have experience with NEC monitors and either ArgyllCMS or SpectraView software. Either one establishes a profile that loads at boot up (Win7 OS) and I don't have to fool around with any controls. Using the Flesher test print or any other one for that matter and printing it on a known paper with a manufacturer's profile (to make things easy) will give you a print that is very good and that you can compare to your display. It's certainly easy enough to re-profile the monitor.
One question for the OP, have you taken an image that printed correctly some time in the past where you have NOT made any changes to and printed it? One would expect that this would be independent of a "monitor" problem and ought to have the right qualities. Just want to rule out any problem with the printer.
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Mark, I think we are saying the same thing. I only have experience with NEC monitors and either ArgyllCMS or SpectraView software. Either one establishes a profile that loads at boot up (Win7 OS) and I don't have to fool around with any controls.
Yes we are, I just wanted to clarify for the OP, for avoidance of all doubt, that any intentional or accidental changes in the parameters invalidates the profile. It is easy for this to happen. I have an NEC PA271, and one needs to be very careful how one handles it - for example if you hold it in the wrong place on the sides if you are trying to reposition it, the brightness can get screwed-up accidentally because the control button is on a front-lower portion of the frame. Poor layout. Great display.
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Yes we are, I just wanted to clarify for the OP, for avoidance of all doubt, that any intentional or accidental changes in the parameters invalidates the profile. It is easy for this to happen. I have an NEC PA271, and one needs to be very careful how one handles it - for example if you hold it in the wrong place on the sides if you are trying to reposition it, the brightness can get screwed-up accidentally because the control button is on a front-lower portion of the frame. Poor layout. Great display.
LOL!!! I've done the same thing myself with my 24" NEC. It usually happens when I'm tilting it just before reprofiling so that the i1 puck will lie flat on the screen.
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HAH! EXACTLY!
And just when we least need that screw-up.
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Spectraview allows you to lock the panel controls.............
Lock OSD (On Screen Display) controls when calibrated - selects if the monitor’s On Screen Display control buttons are locked when the monitor is calibrated. Locking the controls can be useful to prevent accidental or unauthorized adjustment of the monitor once it is calibrated. Options are:
• Don’t lock
• Lock all except Bright and Contrast
• Lock all
Note: The controls will be unlocked if the calibration is turned off in the main window.
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Thanks so much for the early replies... all very helpful but not the answer to my problem.
So, just manually lowering the brightness and contrast after making an advanced monitor profile with ColorMunki (setting the luminance level to 90) Jack’s print comes out as it should.
Not sure what your are trying and what you are saying. You are blaming your display ... did the print look good? Why after making changes to your display would the print come out as it should? That doesn’t make sense, the print shouldn’t change based on settings to the display.
The point of the target is to find where in the workflow the problem is. You should load the file, and print it without any modifications. It should come out perfect. You never make adjustments to the file.
If the print comes out perfect, you then know your display profile and brightness setup need to be changed. Basically do what it takes to get the image on the display to match the print you just made. This can mean luminance, contrast, and white point.
If the print comes out bad, then you have a problem with the printing workflow. This doesn’t mean you also don’t have a problem with the display setup, but changing the display setup won’t cure this problem. You need to make sure when you print the print, no matter what it looks like on the display, it prints correctly. And this is by changing the workflow, not the file.
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Not sure what your are trying and what you are saying. You are blaming your display ... did the print look good? Why after making changes to your display would the print come out as it should? That doesn’t make sense, the print shouldn’t change based on settings to the display.
The point of the target is to find where in the workflow the problem is. You should load the file, and print it without any modifications. It should come out perfect. You never make adjustments to the file.
If the print comes out perfect, you then know your display profile and brightness setup need to be changed. Basically do what it takes to get the image on the display to match the print you just made. This can mean luminance, contrast, and white point.
If the print comes out bad, then you have a problem with the printing workflow. This doesn’t mean you also don’t have a problem with the display setup, but changing the display setup won’t cure this problem. You need to make sure when you print the print, no matter what it looks like on the display, it prints correctly. And this is by changing the workflow, not the file.
Hi Wayne, yes correct advice. But I would add - where you say in italics "without any modifications" - for sure in respect of editing the file, but his printer colour management set-up still needs to be correct for the file to print as intended - no double colour management (either printer or the application -PS/LR) manages colour), correct paper profile selected if application manages colour, correct paper selected if printer manages colour. With these caveats the target should print accurately; if it does, to re-iterate - the problem is his display or its calibration/profiling; if it does not, he has a printer or printer colour management issue.
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Hi Wayne, yes correct advice. But I would add - where you say in italics "without any modifications" - for sure in respect of editing the file, but his printer colour management set-up still needs to be correct for the file to print as intended
I thought that’s what I said. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough, assuming it would be necessary to print it “correctly”. But one thing you can never do is modify the file itself to try and make it look right.
So simple, print it out using correct settings. If it looks bad, you have a problem ... with those settings, the printer driver, corrupt profile ... something in the printing workflow is awry. If it looks good, and looks bad on the display, then the display profile needs fixed.
But first thing that must happen is a good print produced without modifying the original file and using correct settings in the applications. Until you can get that, everything/anything else that “works” is hacking around the problem, not fixing it.
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Was there a sudden change in the lighting level in the OP's work area? If the ambient light level decreased enough, prints that looked good on the screen would be printing dark even if monitor actual brightness was unchanged. But the first place to start is by printing a reference image to rule out print pipeline problems.
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As Wayne and Mark have pointed out, the OP needs to focus on the issues and where they show up. The print is either too dark or it isn’t. That has zero to do with the display at this point. If one output’s a good reference image* and it’s too dark, the display isn’t the issue, the print settings, profile, user or something besides the RGB values are the issue.
* http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip
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I think we're talking to ourselves; the OP seems to have gone away. Let's hope he's fixed his problem.
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Guys you are all correct
Just to reiterate, I didn't adjust Jacks file, with a fresh monitor profile, and the correct paper profile and colour management turned off on the 7800 his test page came out spot on.
When I say spot on I mean perfect when viewed under a neutral light source and perfect when compared to the image on the monitor.
So that proves that the print end of my workflow is fine and it proves that the fresh monotremes profile is working well.
I then go to print my original 'problem ' image......
.... And it's too dark by 2/3rds of a stop....
I then pick two random fashion images with good skin tones and purples and pinks and they print just fine..
I think my problem file could be wrong so today I will re import the original raw files work them and report back...
I also printed some fine art B&W images on profiled Canson Photographique Baryta roll ( as opposed to sheet) and they came out exactly the same as they did 2 weeks ago before my problem started.
It's not monitor controls or change in ambient light but thanks for the suggestions.
I'll nail it eventually and keep you posted.
As all of you know it's a little unnerving when one or two files don't come out right.... It will come back and bite me sooner rather than later if I don't solve it.
Steve
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Just to reiterate, I didn't adjust Jacks file,...
Steve
Who's Jack? You didn't mention him in your original post.
Are you printing images sourced from other photographers? You've described a scenario that is quite rare where only a few images print 2/3 a stop darker and the rest don't.
What format and from whom are you sourcing these images that print dark?
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Were you possibly editing the troubled, but apparently isolated, image files with soft proofing enabled in LR and you did not realize it (with some profile or setting in the soft proofing interface selected so as to increase the apparent brightness on-screen)?
kirk
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Who's Jack? You didn't mention him in your original post.
Are you printing images sourced from other photographers? You've described a scenario that is quite rare where only a few images print 2/3 a stop darker and the rest don't.
What format and from whom are you sourcing these images that print dark?
Who's Jack? Are you following the thread or just jumping in?
Check out reply's 2 and 4 (hint Jack Flesher Test Print)
Jpegman
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Who's Jack? Are you following the thread or just jumping in?
Check out reply's 2 and 4 (hint Jack Flesher Test Print)
Jpegman
My bad. I've read the entire thread back several days ago and skimmed through posts that offered test files. I got the impression due to his belated response that he was having trouble with files that were supplied to him by another photographer and thought that maybe they didn't have an embedded color space or were edited by someone who wasn't working in a color managed environment.
But it doesn't really matter now because the OP is having trouble with several of his own images but not the test files. A VERY RARE situation.
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Hi Guys,
Sorry for leaving this a while, been busy which is nice and havent had time to do much about it....
However.... this past week I created a family christmas card, pumped the image through LR to the printer and it's perfectly fine...!!!!! It's a Christmas pic so has bright highlights and dark shadows... everything came out spot on....!
Sometimes walking away for a while and coming back 'fresh' is worth it.
Thanks again for everyone's input, I really do appreciate it...
Happy Christmas to everyone on here.
Steve