Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: synn on November 25, 2014, 09:33:47 pm
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Michael, Nick, Kevin and all,
This is the only sub forum we have where medium format shooters can talk about their gear, the images they shoot with it, tips and tricks and so on. As you know, almost all of these threads end up being some 10 page debate over an MTF chart or whatever. Now this is a free world and there's definitely a place for such discussions, but sometimes the photography oriented amongst us just wanna know if lens A or lens B is better for portraiture (Some images would be nice) or if Back A or Back B has nicer colors out of the box for landscaping (Again, images would be nice) without being subject to endless discussions on CCD vs CMOS, CFA construction and supplier landscape and of course, test charts after test charts. Moreso when most of these posts take the discussion away from a medium format related one to Medium format vs 35mm and whatnot.
Therefore, I would like to appeal for a sub forum to discuss the technical aspects of capturing an image. Format no bar. All the charts, graphs and feather images would be perfectly on topic there and there are enough active posters here to keep that forum alive and kicking.
Thank you.
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While we are at it could we please have a special forum for Theodoros to rant at Hasselblad.
:)
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Might I also add to the request for an example images sub-forum? I've got lots I can post, but they don't fall into the professional or non-professional work. I would post to a Z and a H specific thread, plus film when I get around to shooting it.
It would also be helpful to have a moderated folder of 'best practices' sub-forum that we can add to - like troubleshooting steps and how to that may be specific to a camera. The thread could be hashed out outside of it, but inside the sub-forum, it's filtered down to minimal posts.
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While we are at it could we please have a special forum for Theodoros to rant at Hasselblad.
:)
Haha, classic!
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...sometimes the photography oriented amongst us just wanna know ... if Back A or Back B has nicer colors out of the box for landscaping (Again, images would be nice) without being subject to ...
One might suspect that what you are proposing is that "I would like to be able to throw out subjective claims about the color of Back A vs Back B without facing any critical questions from color scientists or anyone else. If they do, i want them kicked into the nerd corner".
While I share your frustration over communication with people with a different mindset, I am not sure that segregation is the answer. Sticking to basic social skills seems like a better approach. E.g. "I hear what you say, but I disagree". "Would you care to explain that in practical terms?". Sometimes, the answer may be to walk out, rather than giving the impression that you are here to hammer your point into people.
-h
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sometimes the photography oriented amongst us just wanna know if lens A or lens B is better for portraiture (Some images would be nice) or if Back A or Back B has nicer colors out of the box for landscaping (Again, images would be nice)
Forums live from people answering questions, not from people asking them. If you want this forum to have more comparison pictures, just start posting some yourself.
For example, in the following thread, I posted some comparison pictures:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=94852.0 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=94852.0). You may not agree to the systematic approach or presentation, but this is what I can offer to the landscape photographer interested in H lenses. I am still waiting for other photographers to post something similar taken with Schneider on Phase One cameras or with technical cams. If more people took the challenge, we would have a body of pictures for comparison between different lens design approaches. That would be of interest to landscape photographers.
Maybe you are not interested by landscapes? If you are, for example, interested into portraits, what about posting a few pictures of models with different carnations under different lights to show how your cameras responds? If more people take the challenge with different cameras, we will have a body of pictures for comparison on how skin tones varies with different brands and how the different brands respond to different lights. I would have little use for that since I rarely take portraits, but it would be interesting to others.
The solution to your problem lies in your hands.
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You guys should see how the same threads get answered here and at GetDPI to see what this is all about.
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One might suspect that what you are proposing is that "I would like to be able to throw out subjective claims about the color of Back A vs Back B without facing any critical questions from color scientists or anyone else. If they do, i want them kicked into the nerd corner".
While I share your frustration over communication with people with a different mindset, I am not sure that segregation is the answer. Sticking to basic social skills seems like a better approach. E.g. "I hear what you say, but I disagree". "Would you care to explain that in practical terms?". Sometimes, the answer may be to walk out, rather than giving the impression that you are here to hammer your point into people.
-h
+1
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Hi,
As a small reflection, I don't think the moderators's main hobby is censoring these forums. The kind free flow of thoughts and open exchange of minds is what forums like this are about. It is anyone's choice to join any thread.
There is a rule here on LuLa and that is about civilised manners and avoidance of bad language ( in the sense descibed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profanity ).
This forum "Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography" is dominated by technical threads, see the screen dump below showing the most recent threads. So little surprise that discussions also get technical.
Best regards
Erik
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Content removed, as I have been informed that my information was bad.
I was obviously wrong on the issue – GetDPI has a lot of postings – but that makes me glad, as I really enjoy GetDPI. Thanks "tsjanik" for pointing out the issue!
Best regards
Erik
You guys should see how the same threads get answered here and at GetDPI to see what this is all about.
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While we are at it could we please have a special forum for Theodoros to rant at Hasselblad.
:)
I think you misunderstand my criticism on Hasselblad... I adore Hasselblad for its history, its contribution into advancing photography and its undeniable quality of products! My criticism on them is purely on their marketing decisions after H3's introduction and I am not the only one that does so... The financial position of the company proves that all criticism about them was and is right... Never the less, they seem to come back into correcting many of the false decisions they did over the past 10 years but I feel the pace is slower than it should. I would hate to see Hasselblad vanish and I believe all others that criticise their marketing would feel the same....
Never the less, If I would have to change my system from the Contax (which I'm not unless Hasselblad opens their system completely), I would much prefer Hasselblad than Phamiya.
Now, as far as the proposition of the O/P is concerned, I agree with you, but honestly don't think that it will change anything since clear rules as to what is relevant and what isn't in a discussion is very difficult to be set...
P.S. I do seriously think that if in Hasselblad they decide to offer an alternative choice for customers to buy one of the H5 backs combined with an H5x instead of the dedicated body and if they guaranty that future backs (H6?) will work on an H5x like current H5 backs do, it will attract more customers to the firm... Do you disagree on that?
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As with many things, Quality > Quantity, Erik.
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Synn,
That is a good point. But, you are not sole juror on quality and quantity is measurable.
Best regards
Erik
As with many things, Quality > Quantity, Erik.
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Synn,
That is a good point. But, you are not sole juror on quality and quantity is measurable.
Best regards
Erik
I dont recollect saying that I am.
All I asked is that you tech people talk about your tech dealings in a separate forum and the rest of us have non tech related discussions elsewhere.
Do you see Canon users spending all their time on Nikonrumors and vice versa? Same difference.
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Alternatively, I'd propose 2 new sub-forums for linking and posting images, be they web-based images or attachments, other than if they serve to illustrate the point in discussion ( such as jerome_m's recent hasselblad lens comparisons). One pro and one non-pro (amateur), and I mean 'pro' in the fullest sense of the word (those who derive their income from the profession) whilst the 'non-pro' (amateur) would include those who aspire to pro status but are yet to achieve it.
Currently, there are two threads running in the MF section and a couple in another sub-forum. Why not just amalgamate them in a new 'Image' sub-forum ?
Other than the above, how about a forum for 'Lighting' ?
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I dont recollect saying that I am.
All I asked is that you tech people talk about your tech dealings in a separate forum and the rest of us have non tech related discussions elsewhere.
Do you see Canon users spending all their time on Nikonrumors and vice versa? Same difference.
Canon cameras are not based on Nikon guts. Thus one might not expect most Canon users to be highly interested in Nikon cameras.
All cameras are based on camera technology. Thus one might expect a significant number of camera users to be interested in camera technology. Refusing photographers to discuss camera tech would be like refusing painters to discuss paint.
Again, you seem to want to be able to make claims about e.g. image quality without facing difficult questions from people who (potentially) know camera technology better than yourself. I think that that line of thinking is counter productive. If you want to be a great photographer, then be a great photographer. If you are able to be one without having an interest in or spending time on camera technology, then good for you. Certainly, a great photographer does not need to "win" every single discussion on the internet in order to be a greatphotographer?
-h
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All I asked is that you tech people talk about your tech dealings in a separate forum and the rest of us have non tech related discussions elsewhere.
I think the tech side covers most of the existing forums 'as-is'.
Colour management, Digital Image processing, Printing papers and Inks, Motion & Video ...
Are you seriously proposing that all these forums should be relegated to 'pretty-picture' status and condensed into one forum rather than tech based discussions in the current format ? Better my proposal above, where you can have your own 'camera club' space, which is, IMO, essentially what you're asking for.
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Like I have said before. A handful of posters here focus mainly on the quantitative aspect of photo gear. Those same people are the ones that post the most ( seems like posting here is a priority in their life or have nothing else to do) so its no surprise that most discussions are skewed in that direction quickly. Not saying that the numbers or engineering part of photo gear is not important, it is, specially to those who make photo gear (hardware) and software and maybe to those who make purchasing decisions based on numbers.
But there is a HUGE qualitative aspect of photo gear that is very important, how things work in your hands while making real world images and also subjective qualities of gear that are all somewhat crushed by a few forum members that focus on the quantitative aspects, that seem to wanna be involved in every thread, have the last word and just don't know when to shut up.
Again, these types of people are in every forum but given that the Medium Format Owners community is a pretty small one they stick out and affect the dynamics of the group quite a bit.
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But there is a HUGE qualitative aspect of photo gear that is very important, how things work in your hands while making real world images and also subjective qualities of gear that are all somewhat crushed by a few forum members that focus on the quantitative aspects,...
It is interesting how our perception change with our position. I see*) things radically differently from yourself. I see people like the thread starter involving themselves in many of the threads that I am interested in, making it appear as if the thread have zero interest to them, only repeatedly posting in order to make the thread less pleasant. It appears that some of these people are on a crusade to tell people like myself that my approach to photography is a waste of time, and if I disagree the point will be hammered into me at every possible time.
In fact, I recently asked synn how many times he would repeat himself before getting bored:
At least as many times as people find the time to point it out.
I don't think that you will find anyone that disputes that there are important qualitative aspects to photography. The question is (perhaps) if discussion about quantitative aspects must be moderated away in order to discuss qualitative aspects. I don't think so. People will discuss what they will discuss, and if you want to start a thread on something that interest you, no-one will stop you. You might not get 100 replies like the guy asking about the DR of Nikon vs Canon, but that is just an indication of what people are interested in.
...seem to wanna be involved in every thread, have the last word and just don't know when to shut up.
In a discussion where people argue, there will inevitable be someone who gets the "last word". What you are saying is that you wish group A would leave the final word to group B? Let me guess that you identify yourself with group B?
-h
*)I am talking about my qualitative perception of other contributions here, not quantitative facts.
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But there is a HUGE qualitative aspect of photo gear that is very important, how things work in your hands while making real world images and also subjective qualities of gear ..
Agreed, and where better to discuss and illustrate this aspect if not in a dedicated forum ?
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Alternatively, I'd propose 2 new sub-forums for linking and posting images, be they web-based images or attachments, other than if they serve to illustrate the point in discussion ( such as jerome_m's recent hasselblad lens comparisons). One pro and one non-pro (amateur), and I mean 'pro' in the fullest sense of the word (those who derive their income from the profession) whilst the 'non-pro' (amateur) would include those who aspire to pro status but are yet to achieve it.
Why would you want this split?
What makes you think "non-pros" would aspire to "pro status", or that they are working towards "achieving" it?
Rather vulgar elitism if you ask me.
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Why would you want this split?
Rather vulgar elitism if you ask me.
Nope.
The split is already there, in the threads. When you and others post their 'pro' pics it serves as a form of peer review. Pics from the amateur crowd, and it's not meant in a derogatory way, often serve a different discussion. Nothing to do with elitism, all to do with 'ticking the right boxes'.
What makes you think "non-pros" would aspire to "pro status", or that they are working towards "achieving" it?
Try reading what I wrote.
Never said non-pros 'would' aspire. I said the forum 'would' include those who 'do' aspire ..
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Nope.
The split is already there, in the threads. When you and others post their 'pro' pics it serves as a form of peer review. Pics from the amateur crowd, and it's not meant in a derogatory way, often serve a different discussion. Nothing to do with elitism, all to do with 'ticking the right boxes'.
Try reading what I wrote.
Never said non-pros 'would' aspire. I said the forum 'would' include those who 'do' aspire ..
I don't consider the status quo to be a good thing at all, and consider it elitist to have it.
There is a far more diverse range of quality images, and far more engagement in the targeted "fun with..." threads over at GetDPI, in which professionals, semi-professionals, and amateurs all contribute to freely.
Your critique of my interpretation of what you wrote is welcomed, thank you. But it actually makes things even worse in my view. Those amateurs who would aspire to being professionals segregated away from professionals? And you actually felt it necessary to draw out that distinction?
I struggle to understand the mind-set of those who would think that is a positive thing.
The two things that professional photographers are demonstrably better at doing than amateurs, are running a photography business; and generating an income.
Why would you want to split the sharing and discussion of photographs based on that distinction?
Kind regards,
Gerald.
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I haven't followed the discussion. I don't need to I think.
I do not agree that more subdivisions are a good thing. If anything I would like fewer sub-forums. I almost prefer to read Lula on my phone because the tapatalk app shows a time line with messages from any sub-forums and I end up reading things I would never seek out myself.
More subdivisions lead to fewer updates to any one sub-forum and in the end the death of a forum.
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We are watching comments here. We have been hesitant over the years to over complicate the forum. The forum area has always been a great area to learn and share with others. Sometimes it gets out of hand and we deal with those instances the best we can. We'll consider your suggestions as we look towards the new year. I will say one of the things that makes this forum work well is that we don't over complicate it. Too many topics and sub topics can be as confusing as helpful.
We are all ears but in the end we will make decisions based on what we feel will benefit all our readers. If any of you have strong ideas then send me a detailed PM.
Kevin Raber
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My thought is that maybe we just need a "gear examples" (please find a better name) forum in addition to all of the "gear talk" forums. Just look at the Show me your Fuji X photos, Sigma DP Merrill photos, and I'm sure people would love to have forums devoted to just the pictures for the gear. A great example is mu-43.com that has a lens forum for talking about micro 4/3 lenses, an example forum for each lens, and an adapted lens forum for example of non-native lenses. The only problem becomes, with the highly varied nature of this forum, there is a structure issue.
P.S. Don't get a big head about being a "pro". Some of us have had the opportunity, but decided it wasn't for us. And just like the ranks of "amateur", the ranks of pro are just as varied in skill levels and technical knowledge.
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I agree. It is best to keep it simple.
Create just one additional sub-forum from what is available now:
"Medium Format Lens and Sensor Testing and Technology"
that should take care of it
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Hi,
I see your point.
I was always think about the pro thread as "paid for pictures", and the pictures published there are quite different from other threads.
Regarding the "fun with … threads over at GetDPI" there are many great images posted there.
Best regards
Erik
I don't consider the status quo to be a good thing at all, and consider it elitist to have it.
There is a far more diverse range of quality images, and far more engagement in the targeted "fun with..." threads over at GetDPI, in which professionals, semi-professionals, and amateurs all contribute to freely.
Your critique of my interpretation of what you wrote is welcomed, thank you. But it actually makes things even worse in my view. Those amateurs who would aspire to being professionals segregated away from professionals? And you actually felt it necessary to draw out that distinction?
I struggle to understand the mind-set of those who would think that is a positive thing.
The two things that professional photographers are demonstrably better at doing than amateurs, are running a photography business; and generating an income.
Why would you want to split the sharing and discussion of photographs based on that distinction?
Kind regards,
Gerald.
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I agree on the "pro" bit as SZR suggested... But, I do feel that the problem we are discussing here, comes down in reality to one member that has insisted to post the same "test" more than 100 times in more than 100 different (and many times irrelevant) conversations and through this "test" has dominated them up to an annoying degree... There was enough arguing against P1 with respect to H "fans" up to now, but this is to more or less be expected in an MF forum... Now there is the a new "competitor" that tries in an MF forum to talk MF users on how bad their choice is and how superior replacing it with a DSLR is... and he insists on promoting that same "test" in each and every conversation he enters (which is all the conversations)... I don't think it would be difficult for the mods to talk him out of this practice... After all, he doesn't seem to be a "bad fellow"... I'm sure he'll understand that its best for him to stop causing the problem, instead of the whole site changing practice because of him...
Now, lets talk on Hasselblad opening the system back! :D (....which will be for both photographer and their own benefit) ...Shall I start the thread or others will? ...I give you a couple of days guys! ;) ...and don't forget to include Hasselblad's MS future propositions in that thread! :-*
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I don't consider the status quo to be a good thing at all, and consider it elitist to have it.
Well Gerald, I've got no problem with your views/interpretation, and thanks for the pointer to GetDPI - but either way it's not an issue I feel strongly about and is not central to the core point of my post, which was:
That there are some who prefer to concentrate on the qualitative aspects of photography and, IMO, that would be best served by giving them a distinct sub-forum (or two), rather than trying to limit the technical and scientific threads and forums that currently exist.
Best
M
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I agree. It is best to keep it simple.
Create just one additional sub-forum from what is available now:
"Medium Format Lens and Sensor Testing and Technology"
that should take care of it
This sounds like a pretty good idea.
+1
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Just look at the Show me your Fuji X photos, Sigma DP Merrill photos, and I'm sure people would love to have forums devoted to just the pictures for the gear.
Why do you need 'forums' ? Just start a thread (in the correct sub-forum)* - that's what the examples you cite do as well as the pro, non-pro etc threads that currently exist. It just requires members to either start and/or post in the appropriate thread.
* which could be called 'quantitative photography in the modern imaging world'
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ps
But non-landscapists could still do with a 'Lighting' sub-forum - Kevin, Michael et al - please note!
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Why do you need 'forums' ? Just start a thread (in the correct sub-forum)* - that's what the examples you cite do as well as the pro, non-pro threads that currently exist. It just requires members to either start and/or post in the appropriate thread.
* which could be called "quantitative photography in the modern imaging world'
I think we are both saying the same thing, just splitting it different. What I was getting at was a section for examples (which would be filled with the threads you are talking about) and a section for technical talk (i.e. MTF charts).
The only reason to do "forums" to split the two is just simply usability. It has nothing to do with a person's capabilities to post to any of those threads, but everything to do with how easy it is to get to those threads.
At least, I think that is what the intent of Synn was in starting this thread...
Now, about that Hasselblad Stellar II...
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The forum area has always been a great area to learn and share with others.
+1
So much so, that I'd even call it a 'resource' - let's not lose it.
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So, umm...this is embarrassing, I think I misunderstood Synn's intent. It wasn't to have threads of images to evaluate a certain piece of gear, but to have threads talking about said of gear without getting into the technical aspects. Correct?
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Now, about that Hasselblad Stellar II...
...he,he,he... I think they closed the premises in Italy down and fired the personal (as well as the CEO)... What a disaster! ...I think they only have kept a FF version of the Sony in limited quantities just "to keep in touch" for future use... I hate to say that they wouldn't listen so many people telling them... "are you nuts"? ...but again, there where so many people telling them they where "committing suicide" when they "closed" the H3 and they where "playing def"... They still do (to a lesser extend) "playing def" and if they continue with this, it'll be a disaster for photography (having only P1 in MF business) ...Unless if Leica merges as to "save" them... which looks like the most possible scenario... but the more it delays... (like with Sinar) the less costly the buying out will be... unless they wake up and open the system back to where it was 10 years ago...
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We are watching comments here. We have been hesitant over the years to over complicate the forum. The forum area has always been a great area to learn and share with others. Sometimes it gets out of hand and we deal with those instances the best we can. We'll consider your suggestions as we look towards the new year. I will say one of the things that makes this forum work well is that we don't over complicate it. Too many topics and sub topics can be as confusing as helpful.
We are all ears but in the end we will make decisions based on what we feel will benefit all our readers. If any of you have strong ideas then send me a detailed PM.
Kevin Raber
Kevin,
Thanks for letting us know you're watching this.
I think that Synn's proposal is misguided, elitist and unworkable. Listen to the feedback, think about it, and then do us a favour and bin it.
There are two scenarios where "tech talk" arises in the Medium Format forum:
1) Threads which are named along tech lines. Anyone who knows they're not interested in that aspect can ignore them. No need for a sub-forum.
2) Threads where it becomes necessary to introduce "tech talk" to explain what's going on. You cannot seriously expect people who understand why such-and-such a camera is a poor high ISO or long exposure of wide dynamic ange performer, to bite their tongue and say nothing when another member wonders how/if they can get better results. I'm an educator by profession, so holding back on useful information is anathema to me. It is also part of my personal journey through medium format to learn more about these aspects all the time, and that happens through discussion with other users.
I will not be relegated to 2nd-class status and stuck in a sub-forum because some other member holds one type of contribution as being more inherently valuable than another. Synn's proposal is not driven by an urge for organisational efficiencies: it is driven by an elitism about what constitutes "proper" medium format forum content. Don't believe me? See the similar debate we had in this getdpi thread, posts #84 onwards (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/52041-some-p45-hasselblad-v-series-samples-2.html#post606794).
Ray
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I agree with everything that Ray and Keith just said. These past few weeks, I've read just as many snarky remarks that we need more 'High Art' as I've seen feathers. I say, to each their own. Everyone is free to comment, participate, or neglect a thread in this forum. I like the technical contributions and I like BC's images. I like the mix and I say keep it the way it is, and if you feel you've nothing to add to a particular discussion, let it be.
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May I ask....? If there wasn't this particular issue that has annoyed too many people, having being posted so many times in so many threads and wouldn't have dominated these threads.... would there ever be a problem? ...or a suggestion for a new forum? ....Q.E.D then... I insist than mods can easily persuade the originator of the issue different... I'm also sure he'll understand (as well as the few that see it as a game of "playing the Einstein" to others and are backing (and feed) this nonsense)...
Now, what about P1 offering their backs for a third of the price they now ask for? ...I'm sure they will if Hasselblad "opens" the system back....
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I love the optimistic view that the posters who give rise to the initial suggestion here wouldn't post in whatever thread was created to avoid the objected-to content.
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Hi Synn,
I also visit GetDPI, and postings are quite few there. Something you may appreciate that there are forums like "Fun with medium format" and "Fun with Sony A7r", posting on those forums doesn't put you in conflicts with folks using different stuff.
I have made a small donation to GetDPI, because they do a great service to the community, but I have a guess that they don't attract much in way of sponsoring.
Some very good discussion on GetDPI, but volume is low. MFD and Sony threads seem to be where the action is on GetDPI.
Best regards
Erik
As one of the founding fathers of GetDPI let me say starting it was never about numbers and never about revenue . Its mantra from day 1 has and always will be about learning, sharing and having fun with photography. Most everyone is learning at some stage in there photography and it's all about growing and learning. As a instructor on about 24 workshops and a working Pro for well over 30 years my thrust has always been about giving back. We do that with love and respect for everyone in a non hassle environment . Either you love it or you don't. But I never want to be or be seen as a DP review kind of forum. Quality of members is far more important.
About splitting the forum up into a technical forum. I urge Michael and Kevin not to do it. Its just a place to show off your engineering skills. It really has very little to do with being a better photographer and I Think LuLu is better than that.
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Hi Guy,
Thanks for making those points clear!
I really appreciate GetDPI and I hope I did not appear negative about the GetDPI forums.
Best regards
Erik
As one of the founding fathers of GetDPI let me say starting it was never about numbers and never about revenue . Its mantra from day 1 has and always will be about learning, sharing and having fun with photography. Most everyone is learning at some stage in there photography and it's all about growing and learning. As a instructor on about 24 workshops and a working Pro for well over 30 years my thrust has always been about giving back. We do that with love and respect for everyone in a non hassle environment . Either you love it or you don't. But I never want to be or be seen as a DP review kind of forum. Quality of members is far more important.
About splitting the forum up into a technical forum. I urge Michael and Kevin not to do it. Its just a place to show off your engineering skills. It really has very little to do with being a better photographer and I Think LuLu is better than that.
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No not all. I did not read it like that at all. Always nice to see the support for it.
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Taking about cameras is easy. Talking about photography is hard.
While I know where you're coming from Synn, short of creating a "10 Words you Can't Say on Lula" list (where's George Carlin when we need him), you are raging against the deep reality that those who are more 'technically inclined' have a disproportionate urge to participate in the online photography discussion community.
- N.
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...........Some very good discussion on GetDPI, but volume is low. .........
Hi Erik:
I'm quite fond of both LuLa (I've learned a lot here over the years) and GetDPI (great members) and I have to take objection to your statement that the volume at GetDPI is low. I see Guy just posted and is too modest to point this out, so I will. Assuming you think LuLa has a high volume, here are some numbers that might cause you to reconsider:
LuLa started in 2002 and has 757,632 posts which is a rate of approximately 63,136/yr. or 173/day.
GetDPI started in 2007 and has 598730 posts, a rate of approximately 85,532/yr. or 234/day.
The posting numbers appear at the bottom of each forum's index. Note that GetDPI has a membership about 1/10 of that for LuLa.
Perhaps posting in your areas of interest is low and hence your impression.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Thanks for info and for taking objection. I am looking mostly at the Medium format forum and to a lesser extent to the Sony forum.
I am happy to hear that GetDPI is getting a lot more traffic than I believed. Sometimes it is nice to be wrong!
Best regards
Erik
Hi Erik:
I'm quite fond of both LuLa (I learned a lot her over the years) and GetDPI (great members) and I have to take objection to your statement that the volume at GetDPI is low. I see Guy just posted and is too modest to point this out, so I will. Assuming you think LuLa has a high volume, here are some numbers that might cause you to reconsider:
LuLa stared in 2002 and has 757,632 posts which is a rate of approximately 63,136/yr. or 173/day.
GetDPI started in 2007 and has 598730 posts, a rate of approximately 85,532/yr. or 234/day.
The posting numbers appear at the bottom of each forum's index. Note that GetDPI has a membership about 1/10 of that for LuLa.
Perhaps posting in your areas of interest is low and hence your impression.
Tom
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LuLa stared in 2002 and has 757,632 posts which is a rate of approximately 63,136/yr. or 173/day.
GetDPI started in 2007 and has 598730 posts, a rate of approximately 85,532/yr. or 234/day.
The posting numbers appear at the bottom of each forum's index. Note that GetDPI has a membership about 1/10 of that for LuLa.
Tom
Lula has much more many members because of its "For sale" section (which is considered to be the most effective by far out of all forums)... Also a considerable amount of posts on Lula out of the 173/day are on that section... Get Dpi surely has more talking in discussions, but it also has much more involvement of the moderators in these discussions and I'm not sure more people read what is posted. Never the less, a forum attracts people (even if they don't get involved into conversations) depending on the importance or the solutions they find in the subjects posted...
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Segregation? Apartheid? Ghettoization? Pigeonholing? Compartmentalization? Wagon circling? Zero tolerance? Patrolling, excluding, penalizing, excommunicating?
I read LuLa forums by clicking on two links, neither of which has anything to do with forums, sub-forums, micro-forums, etc. I click on "Show new replies to your posts" and "Show unread posts since last visit." I then read threads there, based on two things: interestingness of the thread title or who the author is.
I look into forums when I need to decide in which one to post my question or comment. In that case, I actually find the number of existing forums confusing and overwhelming. In other words, I would prefer less, not more of it. The advantage of the current structure, however good or bad it is, is that we got used to it.
Value of a discussion is in its varied points of view. Talking only to those who agree with us might give us temporarily a warm and fuzzy feeling, like comfort food. However, like the latter, it isn't good for our long term (intellectual) health. Reading a thread and coming across an objectionable post leaves us with several options: react, ignore temporarily, or ignore (the poster) for good. No need for "special education forums," "nerd sandboxes," etc.
On the other hand, since we are talking about forum pet peeves, here is mine: quoting a long post, especially those with a lot of pictures or graphs, only to add invaluable and profoundly insightful commentary of our own, the likes of "+1," "Well said," "I agree," etc. ;)
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Hey, "Cooter", it's time we talked about the J. cam again - remember RG?
;D
Edmund
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Hey, "Cooter", it's time we talked about the J. cam again - remember RG?
;D
Edmund
What's the saying? I wouldn't belong to a club that would be willing to have me.
The J.Cam was pretty funny and ended those forums. I don't think "Return Of the J Cam" is a good idea.
Anyway, I hate the idea of segregation, in any form.
I like the divergent backgrounds and would be bored to tears if it was only professionals. Same if it was only camera geeks. This place has a pretty good mix and I think sharing works both ways.
I'll admit some of the tech posters and fan boys are a little over the top but hey, it's their time, their fingers, but if if bores you just click past. I usually do because tech for techs sake isn't my bag.
But all of this is mute. Michael and his gang are smart and if someone has a great idea, pm them and if it fits their business model I promise you they will give it thought.
IMO
BC
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But all of this is mute.
Three pages in a day! Definitely not mute. ;)
Jim
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Lula has much more many members because of its "For sale" section (which is considered to be the most effective by far out of all forums)... Also a considerable amount of posts on Lula out of the 173/day are on that section...
Hmmm...
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Michael, Nick, Kevin and all,
This is the only sub forum we have where medium format shooters can talk about their gear, the images they shoot with it, tips and tricks and so on. As you know, almost all of these threads end up being some 10 page debate over an MTF chart or whatever. Now this is a free world and there's definitely a place for such discussions, but sometimes the photography oriented amongst us just wanna know if lens A or lens B is better for portraiture (Some images would be nice) or if Back A or Back B has nicer colors out of the box for landscaping (Again, images would be nice) without being subject to endless discussions on CCD vs CMOS, CFA construction and supplier landscape and of course, test charts after test charts. Moreso when most of these posts take the discussion away from a medium format related one to Medium format vs 35mm and whatnot.
Therefore, I would like to appeal for a sub forum to discuss the technical aspects of capturing an image. Format no bar. All the charts, graphs and feather images would be perfectly on topic there and there are enough active posters here to keep that forum alive and kicking.
Thank you.
I don't think it is just the MF forum. I think it is also the other main camera equipment forum as well.
In any case, I don't think that setting up another forum will help. I think the people to whom you are referring would still jump into the existing forums and engage in the kind of ultra-technical digressions with which you are concerned.
I must admit that I do not care for these digressions either, but I do not see what can be done about it as I doubt these people will restrain themselves and it is probably too much work for the current moderator to deal with, even if so inclined.
To be clear, the kind of digressions to which I object are, for example, ones that get deeply into sensor technology and the like, when that kind of arcane technical information is not what the original poster is concerned with, nor the other participants in the discussion.
As an aside, it is often hard for me to tell whether the people engaging in these kinds of discussions are actual professional engineers or just amateurs with a particularly strong interest in the subject. Frankly, to the extent that I want to know about very technical matters of hardware design and manufacture, I want to hear about it from people who are professionally engaged in the design, production and review of this equipment. However, it is not such discussions, in and of themselves, to which I object, whoever is participating. It is just when people insert them into other discussions and then proceed to digress at great length.
In any case, as with most public forums on the Internet, I accept that it is pretty much of a free for all, and that moderators can generally only step in when something clearly violates the rules.
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Synn,
That is a good point. But, you are not sole juror on quality and quantity is measurable.
Best regards
Erik
Erik, this gave me a laugh. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.
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Segregation? Apartheid? Ghettoization? Pigeonholing? Compartmentalization? Wagon circling? Zero tolerance? Patrolling, excluding, penalizing, excommunicating?
I read LuLa forums by clicking on two links, neither of which has anything to do with forums, sub-forums, micro-forums, etc. I click on "Show new replies to your posts" and "Show unread posts since last visit." I then read threads there, based on two things: interestingness of the thread title or who the author is.
I look into forums when I need to decide in which one to post my question or comment. In that case, I actually find the number of existing forums confusing and overwhelming. In other words, I would prefer less, not more of it. The advantage of the current structure, however good or bad it is, is that we got used to it.
Value of a discussion is in its varied points of view. Talking only to those who agree with us might give us temporarily a warm and fuzzy feeling, like comfort food. However, like the latter, it isn't good for our long term (intellectual) health. Reading a thread and coming across an objectionable post leaves us with several options: react, ignore temporarily, or ignore (the poster) for good. No need for "special education forums," "nerd sandboxes," etc.
On the other hand, since we are talking about forum pet peeves, here is mine: quoting a long post, especially those with a lot of pictures or graphs, only to add invaluable and profoundly insightful commentary of our own, the likes of "+1," "Well said," "I agree," etc. ;)
+1
(sorry, couldn't resist)
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Erik, this gave me a laugh. It's like the cat calling the kettle black.
Yeah, I think Synn's opinion is mewed :)
Edmund
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Yeah, I think Synn's opinion is mewed :)
Edmund
Oh man, I have been mixing up things lately! "pot" …. and I need more sleep!
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Segregation? Apartheid? Ghettoization? Pigeonholing? Compartmentalization? Wagon circling? Zero tolerance? Patrolling, excluding, penalizing, excommunicating?
I read LuLa forums by clicking on two links, neither of which has anything to do with forums, sub-forums, micro-forums, etc. I click on "Show new replies to your posts" and "Show unread posts since last visit." I then read threads there, based on two things: interestingness of the thread title or who the author is.
I look into forums when I need to decide in which one to post my question or comment. In that case, I actually find the number of existing forums confusing and overwhelming. In other words, I would prefer less, not more of it. The advantage of the current structure, however good or bad it is, is that we got used to it.
Indeed, it would make sense to simply tag our posts with key words (such as nerd, fanboy, Leica, landscape, MF, test, brickwall, sex on the beach,...) and to create our own dynamic "forums" by filtering for tags of interest (including the possibility to exclude some).
Those siloed forums feel a bit 90s. ;)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7469/15680759749_270b657397_o.jpg)
Cheers,
Bernard
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How about a separate forum for everyday cat/sunset/family members pics?
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I can't be bothered reading all the responses on this thread, but I will say that I don't agree with creating extra forum areas.
I think some people just need to realise that they need not read all the comments in each thread, just as they need not respond to them. It seems a few people here lately have gotten more and more snarky in the way they react to posts they don't agree or identify with. To them I say just post what you think is relevant and of interest to you – and by extension what you think others would benefit from or be interested in you sharing – but there is no need to get personal or repeatedly complain about what other people post. At the end of the day, it's a simple choice about what kind of atmosphere and tone you want this forum to carry. At the moment, some of these threads read like a story of children fighting in a sandpit.
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How about a separate forum for everyday cat/sunset/family members pics?
+300
BC
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it’s a commissioned image in the commissioned section, it will not be reposted again and again on lens/body/sensor threads.
it’s annoyance factor must be pretty low.
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How about a separate forum for everyday cat/sunset/family members pics?
I love the idea!
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7541/15866133602_d2e2faf1a9_o.jpg)
Cheers,
Bernard
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I love the idea!
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7541/15866133602_d2e2faf1a9_o.jpg)
Cheers,
Bernard
Exceptional DR in natural light - Sony sensor or Phase? :)
Is that an Otus?
Strangely I think the front bokeh looks better than the back bokeh.
Oh, wait, I'm not allowed to say the girl is a cute kid (family member, methinks) or note the DR and bokeh (tech stuff), maybe what we really ought to talk about is the price of the equipment and the price someone pays for the image -
Maybe the OP would prefer we do "honest critiques" of the professional's images' artistic content - I'm sure that would spread peace and understanding on this forum.
Edmund
PS - Bernard, I think you used your camera in exactly the spirit photography was invented - to capture an instant so that it could be better remembered and even shared.Not to show an airbrushed model in a contrived situation.
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"Each to their own.”
fair enough. i think I’m done here.
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Exceptional DR in natural light - Sony sensor or Phase? :)
Is that an Otus?
Strangely I think the front bokeh looks better than the back bokeh.
Oh, wait, I'm not allowed to say the girl is a cute kid (family member, methinks) or note the DR and bokeh (tech stuff), maybe what we really ought to talk about is the price of the equipment and the price someone pays for the image -
Some moments are priceless! ;)
And yes, the front bokeh of the Otus, at least in the 1m in front of the subject is very nice!
Cheers,
Bernard
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Some moments are priceless! ;)
And yes, the front bokeh of the Otus, at least in the 1m in front of the subject is very nice!
Cheers,
Bernard
It's rare to see nice front OOF outside the movie industry.
Oh, wait the Otus is probably a digital cinema design.
Yeah, I find it interesting that a technology invented to assist memory by fixing the rugosity of reality has been turned into a technology for persuasion by means of generic situations. But then I'm surely not the first one to notice that novels sell better than diaries and biographies :)
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I read the initial request and giggled, have been super busy the past couple days, today checked back in and saw 4 pages, 70 responses and had a good hearty laugh.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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As one of the founding fathers of GetDPI let me say starting it was never about numbers and never about revenue . Its mantra from day 1 has and always will be about learning, sharing and having fun with photography. Most everyone is learning at some stage in there photography and it's all about growing and learning. As a instructor on about 24 workshops and a working Pro for well over 30 years my thrust has always been about giving back. We do that with love and respect for everyone in a non hassle environment . Either you love it or you don't. But I never want to be or be seen as a DP review kind of forum. Quality of members is far more important.
Indeed I noticed that I did not find the same endless discussion in the getdpi MF section as in the luma MF sections. At first, I thought that moderation was more efficient in getdpi.
However, there is another difference. In getdpi there is an option to ignore users. It is directly available under the user control panel. Maybe this would be worth pursuing.
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Indeed I noticed that I did not find the same endless discussion in the getdpi MF section as in the luma MF sections. At first, I thought that moderation was more efficient in getdpi.
However, there is another difference. In getdpi there is an option to ignore users. It is directly available under the user control panel. Maybe this would be worth pursuing.
You can do that here, too. It's just quite convoluted to get to. Only problem I find with it is that it blocks the posts when reading in a web browser, but not Tapatalk.
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Been busy for a couple of days, came back to this thread and saw the usual verbal diarrhea happening after the first couple of posts. It's hilarious how after page 2, every thread reads exactly the same.
Some of the arguments are beyond hilarious. Elitism? Ok, let's combine the compact system cameras forum with the medium format one because we don't want to appear elitist. Or how about merging all the post production software forums with the film forum because you know how elitist them film shooters can be!
No, it's called keeping topics of a similar nature in the same place so that they don't cross pollute. Not every newbie who comes in here for buying advice needs to know who makes the CFA array for Dalsa and whatnot.
You know what guys, keep doing what you're doing. Just don't get too upset when people like me point out that your walls of text have nothing to do with the thread title.
P.s. Edmund, I believe the camera was created by people who spent hours setting them up for the perfect shot and even more hours post processing the shot in the darkroom. Maybe french schools taught history differently.
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You can do that here, too. It's just quite convoluted to get to. Only problem I find with it is that it blocks the posts when reading in a web browser, but not Tapatalk.
How does one set the luminous landscape forum to ignore a specific user, please?
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How does one set the luminous landscape forum to ignore a specific user, please?
It works on both, personal messages and posts.
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Thank you. I thought this would only work for personal messages.
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Hi,
I am the obvious cause of Synn's irritation, so I can volunteer to leave this forums if his view is shared by other posters. No easy decision as I find this forums great, and a great learning experience.
Best regards
Erik
Michael, Nick, Kevin and all,
This is the only sub forum we have where medium format shooters can talk about their gear, the images they shoot with it, tips and tricks and so on. As you know, almost all of these threads end up being some 10 page debate over an MTF chart or whatever. Now this is a free world and there's definitely a place for such discussions, but sometimes the photography oriented amongst us just wanna know if lens A or lens B is better for portraiture (Some images would be nice) or if Back A or Back B has nicer colors out of the box for landscaping (Again, images would be nice) without being subject to endless discussions on CCD vs CMOS, CFA construction and supplier landscape and of course, test charts after test charts. Moreso when most of these posts take the discussion away from a medium format related one to Medium format vs 35mm and whatnot.
Therefore, I would like to appeal for a sub forum to discuss the technical aspects of capturing an image. Format no bar. All the charts, graphs and feather images would be perfectly on topic there and there are enough active posters here to keep that forum alive and kicking.
Thank you.
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Erik,
Don't leave. You've been nothing but courteous and have contributed a lot to this place.
TJV
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I am the obvious cause of Synn's irritation, so I can volunteer to leave this forums if his view is shared by other posters. No easy decision as I find this forums great, and a great learning experience.
Erik, this makes no sense to me at all. If Synn doesn't want to see your posts, there is already a mechanism he can use to effectuate that (and no one is forcing him to respond to them). Many of the rest of us, me included, do want to see your posts. By leaving, you would deprive us of that privilege.
Jim
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Thank you, sir, I really appreciate your words!
Erik
Erik, I've a fine art background, I'm really not a techy kind of guy. I won't pretend I read much of what you say, I won't pretend I understand much of what you say, I won't pretend I'm interested in much of what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it.
I do understand that many here would like to see less in the way of tech talk but that's down to those who want it to create it rather than moan.
BTW, you've always struck me as being the perfect gentleman. Carry on sir.
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I am the obvious cause of Synn's irritation, so I can volunteer to leave this forums if his view is shared by other posters. No easy decision as I find this forums great, and a great learning experience.
Don't do that.
The reason I was asking for an "ignore" function is because it appears to be the perfect solution for Synn. He does not want to see some posts. He should just put the posters on his ignore list. Problem solved, for him.
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Thanks Jerome,
Best regards
Erik
Don't do that.
The reason I was asking for an "ignore" function is because it appears to be the perfect solution for Synn. He does not want to see some posts. He should just put the posters on his ignore list. Problem solved, for him.
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Thanks a lot Jim,
It is not just about Synn. I guess that I am a bit negative about MFD and some readers don't appreciate that. Actually, I am not that negative about MFD, but I feel that it is an expensive technology that needs to be put in a perspective.
There is a great forum at DPReview on "Photographic Science and Technology", I could join that, but I would miss a lot of very nice people here.
Best regards
Erik
Erik, this makes no sense to me at all. If Synn doesn't want to see your posts, there is already a mechanism he can use to effectuate that (and no one is forcing him to respond to them). Many of the rest of us, me included, do want to see your posts. By leaving, you would deprive us of that privilege.
Jim
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Thanks a lot Jim,
It is not just about Synn. I guess that I am a bit negative about MFD and some readers don't appreciate that. Actually, I am not that negative about MFD, but I feel that it is an expensive technology that needs to be put in a perspective.
There is a great forum at DPReview on "Photographic Science and Technology", I could join that, but I would miss a lot of very nice people here.
Best regards
Erik
Hello Eric:
I think you may have taken the post a bit to seriously. You have a long and excellent history on this site, and great contributions. I would not consider leaving.
Tech and photography to me go hand in hand, especially with digital. Sure it's easy to get caught up in the tech side, but that's just part of it. I also agree with your point about price points, but I don't feel much will change, as the total sales are much smaller for the entire MF lineup.
It's up to the moderators to handle issue where a post may be going off the area where it should be, and they seem to do this well.
I for one hope you plan to stay around and continue to contribute as I hope so will Synn, as both you offer great viewpoints.
Paul
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Another vote for you to stay on this board, Erik. Your posts are much appreciated.
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I'm with Synn on this one. :o
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I'm with Synn on this one. :o
Eric, nobody is stopping you or Syn to start artistic threads. I'm sure that if you ask in header something like 'no tech-talk' you will not be bothered with some technician telling you we need more technology threads.
I really don't see the problem.
Edit: I don't even think the 'no tech-talk' sign would be necessary to not be interrupted be engineers every other post. Just a matter of courtesy.
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Peter,
The LuLa forums used to be well populated with seasoned photographers and some pro's whose goals seemed to be more directed at working around problems, sharing tricks, and experiences and anecdotal stories. Overall I learned a lot about how to make better images and what gear was good, etc. Now there are one or two posters that tie up every thread, artistic or not, with long winded posts with lots of charts and other stuff to prove exactly what? Probably only to show what they know or think they know to the rest of the world in a very pedantic and selfish way. As and example some years back when the topic of color aliasing came up, it was always about how to work around it - such as stopping down, stepping back, caprock filters and so on. It wasn't about who was right and charts and stuff, it was about getting images made and making good images. I really miss those days here. I post my images elsewhere since there is no reward for posting here.
Eric
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Eric, I remember those days and you're right that there seemed to be more working photographers with practical solutions, back then. I miss those days too, though I think those were different times, where digital photography was relatively new ground and there was a much greater demand for practical knowledge. Where all those people have gone, I don't know. I just don't believe they've all been chased away by the technology oriented threads of late.
Kind regards,
Peter
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... Now there are one or two posters that tie up every thread, artistic or not, with long winded posts with lots of charts and other stuff to prove exactly what? Probably only to show what they know or think they know to the rest of the world in a very pedantic and selfish way.
Knowing at least one of those posters, I can assure you that boasting is the last thing on their mind. Sharing their findings, with the intention to help others, is the opposite of selfish, I would say.
... As and example some years back when the topic of color aliasing came up, it was always about how to work around it - such as stopping down, stepping back, caprock filters and so on. It wasn't about who was right and charts and stuff, it was about getting images made and making good images...
And how do we find "how to work around it" if we do not understand the problem first? Sometimes a working pro might stumble on a practical solution, and that is fine. However, charts and a deeper technical analysis often can and do contribute to practical solutions just as well. People absorb information and learn in different ways. Some prefer verbal explanation, some visual. Some intuitively grasp a graph better, some need an actual mage. So what is wrong with providing both?
Some photographers have no clue how cameras work, beyond which button to press, yet produce stunning visuals. Good for them, and my hat off to them. Yet a great deal of us chose photography precisely because it combines technical skills and visual artistry. I, for one, enjoy both. Sometimes the technical part is beyond my comprehension or interest, and that is fine, I just skip or skim it. But that is not much different from the esthetic part either: some of those are not my cup of tea, so I skip or skim them too.
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I did NOT as Erik or anyone else to leave the forum
Rather, I was requesting a special playground for them where they can go chart crazy all they want.
I am sure people who want to read upon technical matters would appreciate the ease of finding such threads and some working photographer looking for tips and tricks or some newbie looking for buying advise would appreciate not having to swim through 8 pages of useless answers.
Before anyone jumps and bites at the last bit, try to recollect how many of the newbies who post here for advise come back after the thread completely dissolves into chaos after page 2.
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P.s. Edmund, I believe the camera was created by people who spent hours setting them up for the perfect shot and even more hours post processing the shot in the darkroom. Maybe french schools taught history differently.
I agree. Here in Europe, people used to spend a lot of time in the dark room setting up the perfect perspective.
Edmund
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Peter,
The LuLa forums used to be well populated with seasoned photographers and some pro's whose goals seemed to be more directed at working around problems, sharing tricks, and experiences and anecdotal stories. Overall I learned a lot about how to make better images and what gear was good, etc. Now there are one or two posters that tie up every thread, artistic or not, with long winded posts with lots of charts and other stuff to prove exactly what? Probably only to show what they know or think they know to the rest of the world in a very pedantic and selfish way. As and example some years back when the topic of color aliasing came up, it was always about how to work around it - such as stopping down, stepping back, caprock filters and so on. It wasn't about who was right and charts and stuff, it was about getting images made and making good images. I really miss those days here. I post my images elsewhere since there is no reward for posting here.
Eric
+1
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Hi,
I don't think that the persons you mention post a lot on artistic threads. I don't comment on 'pedantic and selfish' part
Now one forces anyone to read threads they are not interested in. You can also ignore data, charts or facts that contradicts your opinion. You are free to comment on any thread, of course, but then I don't think you should deny the right to do so to others.
Best regards
Erik
… Now there are one or two posters that tie up every thread, artistic or not, with long winded posts with lots of charts and other stuff to prove exactly what? Probably only to show what they know or think they know to the rest of the world in a very pedantic and selfish way.
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I did NOT as Erik or anyone else to leave the forum
Rather, I was requesting a special playground for them where they can go chart crazy all they want.
I am sure people who want to read upon technical matters would appreciate the ease of finding such threads and some working photographer looking for tips and tricks or some newbie looking for buying advise would appreciate not having to swim through 8 pages of useless answers.
Before anyone jumps and bites at the last bit, try to recollect how many of the newbies who post here for advise come back after the thread completely dissolves into chaos after page 2.
I agree with you on that. I rarely post here and I am a 645z shooter hobbyist but find that there is very little to learn here because of all the too-much-tech talk. Threads to get over-run with it.
Also, I think that the 35mm vs MF is an old topic and should never be brought up here. We have purchased MF because its what we want to use and I don't need to hear about how good the D800 is and how MF is too expensive in comparison.
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Don't know how this all came down to tech talk or not... Clearly, the problem was never that, it rather is having the same "test" posted hundreds of times, in handreds of different threads and the insist to dominate them... The other clear problem is having some people looking at a (questionable IMO) "test" which applies (or not) for a particular kind of photography and considering that it's the only kind of photography that there is... (which of course is far from truth with MF).
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Hi,
I don't think that the persons you mention post a lot on artistic threads. I don't comment on 'pedantic and selfish' part
Now one forces anyone to read threads they are not interested in. You can also ignore data, charts or facts that contradicts your opinion. You are free to comment on any thread, of course, but then I don't think you should deny the right to do so to others.
Best regards
Erik
Erik,
It's not as simple as "don't read the posts you are not interested in". If so, you are free to ignore all posts that complain about too much tech talk, including this thread.
The problem is, every thread turns into the same tired old discussion. People open new threads with the expectation to read/enjoy/learn something new and switch their minds off from it and let you guys run that thread to the ground.
Look at the post counts of you and the rest of the tech gang. It's several times higher than that of those who post more on the qualitative level of photography. Be honest to yourself and say just how many of them were relevant to the original thread topic.
The tech folk are ganging up on me and suggesting that this is some sort of personal vendetta for me etc. Not at all. I couldn't care less about how many feather comparison posts you guys make. Rather, I am trying to raise the quality of the forum and to stimulate the discussion of some new topics for a change. Not once did I say "stop discussing your tech" as most of you suggest. Rather, it's more of "keep your tech related talk in its own section and let the other threads have a chance to progress into discussions that are topical to the thread titles".
Lastly, to address the ad hominem attack, I contribute regularly in terms of images and aspects of medium format photography such as the handling of the cameras in the real world, post processing tips, color management and so on. I believe that these are more relevant to someone trying to get into medium format photography/ shoot actively, than the ten thousandth repost of how with several factors equalized in a way hat is not at all reflective of real world use and processed in a sub optimal way, a P45+ and some sony DSLRs deliver very similar boring test images. Hell, how many newbies who come here for advice know that one of the most vocal posters here has very little experience in medium format photography and doesn't even own any medium format gear anymore?
When was the last time you or any other tech guys looked at an image posted here and asked the poster "can you explain how so and so look/ effect etc. Was achieved"? When was the last time you looked at your Hasselblad as anything more than an expensive testing rig?
If you and your buddies can't think outside the self contrived box of charts and graphs, why not keep those discussions contained in their own section and please let other discussions have a fighting chance? That's all I am asking. And it's not for me, but for all the people who enjoy photography as an art who have either stopped posting here or cut their posting down to a minimum because everything is now a shouting contest and their voices are getting drowned out by far more vocal tech talk.
Something to do with SNR in your language, I think.
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I completely agree with Synn. The discussions became boring. It's been going for months and I started avoiding LL, which is a shame.
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I completely agree with Synn. The discussions became boring. It's been going for months and I started avoiding LL, which is a shame.
Yeah, but they aren't boring because of tech talk existence (in general)... It is the "kind" of tech talk, the size of it and the domination it creates that is the (real) problem... More than that... really beneficial tech talk is not supported at all...
Is "pixel" size really tech talk (and the only tech talk that there can be)? ...and if some consider that is, how much "talking" about it there can be?
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Synn, you have my sympathy but you’ve got this arse-over-tit. You’re fighting a losing battle in trying to limit tech talk on an "Equipment and Techniques" forum.
It is indeed that simple. In an equipment and technique forum one could 'occasionally' encounter techtalk ...
A more useful feature than a separate (non-)tech forum (which would require additional moderation), would be to allow marking of all messages in a particular forum as "Read", so they would not show up in the new messages list (or at least get flagged as having been read so one can skip it). That would also take care of e.g. all "For Sale" bumped messages overcrowding the new unread messages list, when one is not interested in trading/buying at that moment. It still takes a deliberate action from the reader, so people who have something to sell would still get exposure.
Cheers,
Bart
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Babel!
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Techniques isn't the same as tech talk, gentlemen.
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Techniques isn't the same as tech talk, gentlemen.
Tech talk isn't posts that have irrelevant "tests", compare apples with (non existing) oranges, dominate all threads, are posted everywhere without having relevance on the subject, mislead, or misguide people.... This is called "trolling" under any sensible way of thinking (in fact is the definition of it...)... Naming it otherwise ("tech talk" or "Techniques" or other...) is what is universally called... Babel!
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I could use either as an aid to sleep.
You want to talk technique then create your own threads and request the discussion is limited to the topic. If it goes off topic then lock the thread.
Is this guy reading???!!!! ....what are you talking about? ....Babel! ...total Babel!
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Feel free to post on the "Fun with medium format" thread and let your images do the talking.
Nah..., I have different opinion to the relevance of resolution with photography and also have different opinion on what a photograph is.... IMO, a photo-graph is only the printed thing on paper... that applies to my artistic work which is mostly "street".
OTOH, my pro stuff done with MF is almost entirely images of art work reproduction (much of it ancient), all done in 16x multishot and processed with absolute colour profiles, which needs special written licence to be presented on web and it would only be aloud in worthless resolution...
Jerome has seen much of both in the OP forums, but it's now withdrawn... (and won't be posted again - no need to - posting in forums can't be of use to me).
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All talk.
But no Babel!
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I actually think the real problem here is the callous and aggressive way some people have started to articulate themselves in these threads.
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Hi,
Synn is not always very specific, so I don't know if he is referring to me.
Facts are something like this:
I bought the P45+ in June 2013 and have been shooting with it since that. Of my shooting, about 1/3 fell on the P45+:
P45+: 3123
SLT99: 4416
SLT77: 1524
Those figures include a workshop and mountain walks were the P45+ was left behind. Weight can be a concern and so can flying be problematic with to much gear.
On the other hand I often pick the Hasselblad first out of the backpack. When feasible I carry both Sony and Hasselblad. Something like 18 kg (including tripod).
I did offer my kit for sale (without any price suggested) on both GetDPI and here on LuLa. It was really in anticipation to 50 MP 24x36 expected early 2015. The question is really, once I have 50 MP on DSLR and a couple decent lenses to match, how much use will the Hasselblad see? On the other hand I like shooting with it.
Anyway, I didn't get a single response. A poster I trust suggested that my sample of the P45+ was a very good one (much better than the copy he had).
So I stayed with it and even bought another lens, the 100/3.5 Planar that I always wanted to have.
Next year we will see if it stay a favourite or will be an expensive dust collector. I honestly don't know. Or, I could go with the Hasselblad VFC-50 back, now that it has live view. But than we have that crop factor of 1.3…
Best regards
Erik
Erik sold his MF gear? I did not realise that.
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Hi,
Synn is not always very specific, so I don't know if he is referring to me.
Facts are something like this:
I bought the P45+ in June 2013 and have been shooting with it since that. Of my shooting, about 1/3 fell on the P45+:
P45+: 3123
SLT99: 4416
SLT77: 1524
Those figures include a workshop and mountain walks were the P45+ was left behind. Weight can be a concern and so can flying be problematic with to much gear.
On the other hand I often pick the Hasselblad first out of the backpack. When feasible I carry both Sony and Hasselblad. Something like 18 kg (including tripod).
I did offer my kit for sale (without any price suggested) on both GetDPI and here on LuLa. It was really in anticipation to 50 MP 24x36 expected early 2015. The question is really, once I have 50 MP on DSLR and a couple decent lenses to match, how much use will the Hasselblad see? On the other hand I like shooting with it.
Anyway, I didn't get a single response. A poster I trust suggested that my sample of the P45+ was a very good one (much better than the copy he had).
So I stayed with it and even bought another lens, the 100/3.5 Planar that I always wanted to have.
Next year we will see if it stay a favourite or will be an expensive dust collector. I honestly don't know.
Best regards
Erik
Hi Eric
Was your trip to the Dolomites? I have wanted to get over there for years.
Weight does matter as you get older. I can remember when I used to try and carry everything :). Those days are gone.
I still backpack the tech kit but I carry only 2 lenses. I have a Fuji XT-1 which I love and will carry it on all trips I carry the Phase One kit. This enables shots that I just could not get with the tech camera.
Paul
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I did offer my kit for sale (without any price suggested) on both GetDPI and here on LuLa. It was really in anticipation to 50 MP 24x36 expected early 2015. The question is really, once I have 50 MP on DSLR and a couple decent lenses to match, how much use will the Hasselblad see?
Best regards
Erik
Oh no! ...not another MP count conversation! ...please! Erik, I strongly suggest to post your "test" to Sony, as to explain to them that they should never develop their latest 12mp FF.... you've explained your criteria enough (some hundreds of times), dominating all posts, to all the rest of us! Thank you for enlightening us up and explain why we shouldn't buy a Leica S 007 (because its 6μm pixels are ...huge!), but surely, even you would understand that there is a limit in talking on a subject.... Your criteria is yours and is fully respected, others think different or use their equipment for different purposes than yours or may know better... You surely understand that you've past the (moral) limits on the amount of posts on the same subject.
Regards, Theodoros.
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Erik,
I think have heard that if you fly too often your back may lose pixels or even columns.
I lost a column both on the P45+ and on the M8, and unfortunately both do not allow the user to remap.
I Don't know how this translates to mountains, I think you know better than I do about atmospheric attenuation of the various forms of radiation that might harm a CCD. Of course, these imager designs originated in airborne and spaceborn sensors, but maybe those have much larger feature geometries.
I wonder if this is true, and how CMOS is affected. Of course most consumer cams can remap.
Edmund
Hi,
Synn is not always very specific, so I don't know if he is referring to me.
Facts are something like this:
I bought the P45+ in June 2013 and have been shooting with it since that. Of my shooting, about 1/3 fell on the P45+:
P45+: 3123
SLT99: 4416
SLT77: 1524
Those figures include a workshop and mountain walks were the P45+ was left behind. Weight can be a concern and so can flying be problematic with to much gear.
On the other hand I often pick the Hasselblad first out of the backpack. When feasible I carry both Sony and Hasselblad. Something like 18 kg (including tripod).
I did offer my kit for sale (without any price suggested) on both GetDPI and here on LuLa. It was really in anticipation to 50 MP 24x36 expected early 2015. The question is really, once I have 50 MP on DSLR and a couple decent lenses to match, how much use will the Hasselblad see? On the other hand I like shooting with it.
Anyway, I didn't get a single response. A poster I trust suggested that my sample of the P45+ was a very good one (much better than the copy he had).
So I stayed with it and even bought another lens, the 100/3.5 Planar that I always wanted to have.
Next year we will see if it stay a favourite or will be an expensive dust collector. I honestly don't know.
Best regards
Erik
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Feel free to post on the "Fun with medium format" thread and let your images do the talking.
Nah...
... You surely understand that you've past the (moral) limits on the amount of posts on the same subject.
Dear Theodorosaurus Rex, by refusing to show us your pictures, it seems to me that you lost any moral ground to post on any subject. You see, forum credibility is typically established by either images or tech expertise. Your "expertise," however, seems to be in a verbal diarrhea against one person (Erik) and one company (Hasselblad).
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.
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Hi Paul,
Very much off topic, but this whole thread is off topic, anyway…
Yes, I spend one to two weeks in the Dolomites each year. But I also fly to Austria and have been frequent flyer to Idaho in the US in work and want to go back. Iceland is another place I want to visit again.
I have firm plans to go on Hans Kruses "Dolomites East" workshop end september next year, and I would recommend Hans Kruse's workshops if you want to see the Dolomites. I was taking part in Dolomites West 2013, and it was very nice, but a bit strenuous. We started 4am each morning shooting till nine oclock, breakfast at the hotell, time off until 2 oclock (or was it twelve?), lessons until 4 pm and than off in the mountains again. Back around 9-10 pm, five course dinner and good local wine.
Cost, around 1200€ but you are half expected to come with a rental car. Other than that all inclusive. Actually, you can join the workshop two days early, you need to pay for the accommodation but Hans's time is free.
There are two workshops, Dolimites West is Rosengarten area and base is Welschnofen/Nova Levante. The East workshop is around Drei Zinnen/Tre Cime de Laveredo and is based in Pocol near Cortina. In 2015 there will be a combined workshop, too, half east half west.
In general, there will be no long hikes I guess. I would think < 2km and mostly significantly shorter. Altitude is around 2200 m.
On my trip we had a great team.
Sorry for the plug!
Technically, I carry the Hasselblad 555/ELD and P45+ and five lenses. Now I also have a Planar 100/3.5, making it six lenses, but I think about getting rid of the Planar 80/2.8 and the Distagon 50 and getting a Distagon 60 instead. But I need to do some testing and strength/weakness analysis to find out what works for me.
To that I add the Sony with 24-70/2.8 and 70-400/4-5.6 and either a Sigma 12-24/4.5-5.6 or Sigma 10/3.5 fisheye. To that comes the tripod. So I end up with around 18 kg. For longer walks at altitude some things are left behind.
Best regards
Erik
Hi Eric
Was your trip to the Dolomites? I have wanted to get over there for years.
Weight does matter as you get older. I can remember when I used to try and carry everything :). Those days are gone.
I still backpack the tech kit but I carry only 2 lenses. I have a Fuji XT-1 which I love and will carry it on all trips I carry the Phase One kit. This enables shots that I just could not get with the tech camera.
Paul
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.
Good point ...
Cheers,
Bart
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;)
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:-)
Thanks for explaining things, Slobodan. With my Scandinavian programming of mind it is a bit hard for me to follow what "theodoros" has on his mind
Best regards
Erik
Dear Theodorosaurus Rex, by refusing to show us your pictures, it seems to me that you lost any moral ground to post on any subject. You see, forum credibility is typically established by either images or tech expertise. Your "expertise", however, seems to be in a verbal diarrhea against one person (Erik) and one company (Hasselblad).
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A point well made, Sir!
Erik
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Ok,ok, you've got me. Are you happy now?
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Sunday morning sermon: why can't we all just get along? :)
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What's the point? ;)
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Sunday morning sermon: why can't we all just get along? :)
It really depends on how you call people you don't know mr. Vlahojevic
[img]/Users/dascalos/Desktop/6_7_2014_11_40_49Allegoric1.jpg[img]
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Hi Chris,
A point is 1/12 of a pica which is 1/72 of a foot.
But I guess the OP means "period", like end of discussion.
Best regards
Erik
What's the point? ;)
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What's the point? ;)
Maybe....(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/Users/dascalos/Desktop/64018_318638321574242_1926299591_n.jpg) this!
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It really depends on how you call people you don't know mr. Vlahojevic
At this point I'd like to call y'all a Taxi!
Edmund
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At this point I'd like to call y'all a Taxi!
Edmund
Suggest to catch the train would be better....(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/Users/dascalos/Desktop/576203_373830746000864_488806356_n.jpg) (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/Users/dascalos/Desktop/401322_328593033857969_885576782_n.jpg)
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:-)
Thanks for explaining things, Slobodan. With my Scandinavian programming of mind it is a bit hard for me to follow what "theodoros" has on his mind
Best regards
Erik
I don't know why you talk for me with others... can't you just reply on my quotes? .... is it difficult for you? ...does it hurts? (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/Users/dascalos/Desktop/380228_374339462616659_1690800371_n.jpg)
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It really depends on how you call people you don't know mr. Vlahojevic...
Hey, I was just following the path of the Master! I noticed you repeatedly referred to another member, Bill (bjanes), as "B ill" ... real classy.
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Hey, I was just following the path of the Master! I noticed you repeatedly referred to another member, Bill (bjanes), as "B ill" ... real classy.
But never noticed that B ill is the master ....eeeh? Funny... you can only see the reflections... never the light! (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/Users/dascalos/Desktop/540083_374375885946350_1591588033_n.jpg)
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Michael please close down this ridicules thread!!!!!!
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Agree... it's the right moment! (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/Users/dascalos/Desktop/391847_286729521377654_997164670_n.jpg)
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Michael please close down this ridicules thread!!!!!!
As a reminder, a thread can be locked by the thread starter just as well.
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As a reminder, a thread can be locked by the thread starter just as well.
I think I saw Synn walking away earlier.... (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/Users/dascalos/Desktop/535346_374337545950184_1634860134_n.jpg)
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Why would I wanna lock this thread when everyone is going on and on about freedom to say whatever they want? This thread is 100% freedom certified. Uncle Sam would be proud!
Besides, it keeps most of the yelling and techno ranting confined to one place, which in a way accomplishes what I set out to do.
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I don't like to lock down threads. However, let's either keep on track or move on to other topics. This one has lost its way.
Kevin Raber
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Erik,
I think have heard that if you fly too often your back may lose pixels or even columns.
I lost a column both on the P45+ and on the M8, and unfortunately both do not allow the user to remap.
I Don't know how this translates to mountains, I think you know better than I do about atmospheric attenuation of the various forms of radiation that might harm a CCD. Of course, these imager designs originated in airborne and spaceborn sensors, but maybe those have much larger feature geometries.
I wonder if this is true, and how CMOS is affected. Of course most consumer cams can remap.
Edmund
Maybe this is urban legend? certainly a lot of posters here are frequent fliers and I don’t remember it being brought up.
While I’ve heard of bits on a hard drive getting flipped by alpa particles at high altitudes, and hard drives themselves having trouble because of internal pressure at extremely high altitudes (15000 feet and up) with climbers, I’ve never heard it mentioned this is an issue with sensors.
But I could be wrong ... color me curious on this one.
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While I’ve heard of bits on a hard drive getting flipped by alpa particles at high altitudes, and hard drives themselves having trouble because of internal pressure at extremely high altitudes (15000 feet and up) with climbers, I’ve never heard it mentioned this is an issue with sensors.
Alpa particles only affect tech cam photographers.
Jim
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Alpa particles only affect tech cam photographers.
Good to see engineers can have a sense of humor too (that is, in addition to graphs and numbers) :)
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Hi,
I don't think it is an urban legend. Facts are:
- There are cosmic particles with very and even extremely high energies
- Microelectronics are sensitive to radation
But:
- Cosmic particles reach earth surface, it is just that they are more abundant at altitude
- Feature size on sensors is larger than on other micro electronics, so I guess they be less sensitive to particle damage.
Some modern cameras are said to map out bad pixels automatically, like once a month.
BTW, the hard disk issue is different. The read/write head of the disk is travelling on an air cushion while in operation. Reducing air pressure the heads are said to make contact with disk, causing surface damage.
Best regards
Erik
Maybe this is urban legend? certainly a lot of posters here are frequent fliers and I don’t remember it being brought up.
While I’ve heard of bits on a hard drive getting flipped by alpa particles at high altitudes, and hard drives themselves having trouble because of internal pressure at extremely high altitudes (15000 feet and up) with climbers, I’ve never heard it mentioned this is an issue with sensors.
But I could be wrong ... color me curious on this one.
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I found a reference here. (http://www.jai.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Camera_Solutions_Application_Tech_Note/TechNote-TH-1087-CosmicRays.pdf) and here (http://www.harvestimaging.com/pubdocs/090_2005_dec_IEDM_terrestrial_cosmic_rays.pdf).
Of course if you use vintage lenses, all bets are off (http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Radioactive_lenses).
Edmund
Hi,
I don't think it is an urban legend. Facts are:
- There are cosmic particles with very and even extremely high energies
- Microelectronics are sensitive to radation
But:
- Cosmic particles reach earth surface, it is just that they are more abundant at altitude
- Feature size on sensors is larger than on other micro electronics, so I guess they be less sensitive to particle damage.
Some modern cameras are said to map out bad pixels automatically, like once a month.
BTW, the hard disk issue is different. The read/write head of the disk is travelling on an air cushion while in operation. Reducing air pressure the heads are said to make contact with disk, causing surface damage.
Best regards
Erik
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While I’ve heard of bits on a hard drive getting flipped by alpa particles at high altitudes, and
Most business frequent flyers can testify to the fact that even if it does happen, modern OS is able to correct these issues seamlessly.
hard drives themselves having trouble because of internal pressure at extremely high altitudes (15000 feet and up) with climbers.
Most HD are not specified to operate above 10,000 feet since they rely on air lift for their heads.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Most business frequent flyers can testify to the fact that even if it does happen, modern OS is able to correct these issues seamlessly.
Cheers,
Bernard
You are quite right if by modern you mean japanese. My P45+ was a service issue, and my Leica also needs a service visit, I believe, which it won't get because it's just too expensive. Dropping a column means you have a line right through your image, its more than a minor irritation.
Edmund
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Oh! That's quite high! ...let's see if competition forces even higher! (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/Users/dascalos/Desktop/374120_373837329333539_1487441_n.jpg)
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Oh! That's quite high! ...let's see if competition forces even higher! (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/Users/dascalos/Desktop/374120_373837329333539_1487441_n.jpg)
Theo - you feel trapped? :)
Edmund
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Theo - you feel trapped? :)
Edmund
The comment was meant for the previous post than yours.... a humorous reply... :) but had a "button demon" attack... ???(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/Users/dascalos/Desktop/399060_363556593694946_1101172517_n.jpg)
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The comment was meant for the previous post than yours.... a humorous reply... :) but had a "button demon" attack... ???(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/Users/dascalos/Desktop/399060_363556593694946_1101172517_n.jpg)
Ah, the carefree days of youth. This picture made my day.
Edmund
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Ah, the carefree days of youth. This picture made my day.
Edmund
Here is some more days of youth then.... Watch this carefully, there's much more in it than meets the eye.... (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/Users/dascalos/Desktop/535438_374337099283562_789822267_n.jpg)
EDIT: Sorry about the posted res... It's for security purposes... (the others too, but this one more so)
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My P45+ was a service issue, and my Leica also needs a service visit, I believe, which it won't get because it's just too expensive. Dropping a column means you have a line right through your image, its more than a minor irritation.
Edmund
Edmund ol' boy.
For a tech head you had more problems with a digital back and camera than anyone I've known.
I've flown a gazillion miles with all my equipment and never had a dropped "line" or any other problem.
I routinely carry 30 terabytes of data also and knock on silicone I've never had an issue either, except when TSA smashes something.
But, you remind me of a digital tech I use to use (emphasis on use to) that every time I talk to him he has a computer blow up, screen break, motherboard short, etc. etc. etc.
But Edmund, maybe you should stick with film, try polaroid.
BC
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Modern pressurized passenger aircraft maintain a cabin altitude of about 8000 feet or less.
Most business frequent flyers can testify to the fact that even if it does happen, modern OS is able to correct these issues seamlessly.
Most HD are not specified to operate above 10,000 feet since they rely on air lift for their heads.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Edmund ol' boy.
For a tech head you had more problems with a digital back and camera than anyone I've known.
I've flown a gazillion miles with all my equipment and never had a dropped "line" or any other problem.
BC
J,
I have stuff which breaks a lot from day 1 and stuff which never breaks. The strange thing is it's a dumb-bell, nothing much in between of these extremes.
And in fact this agrees with the "bathtub model" which we techies use to describe faults, where if a piece of equipment survives the first few weeks or months it will probably never fail until ripe old age collects its due.
Interestingly, this model explains why "add-on 3 year warranties" are such a good business for shops and manufacturers.
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Modern pressurized passenger aircraft maintain a cabin altitude of about 8000 feet or less.
Can you give me that in meters, rate of climb, altitude adjustments during take off and descent?
(Just keeping with the spirit of the "photography" forums.)
And throw in something with the word cosmic. I like that word.
BC
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Can you give me that in meters, rate of climb, altitude adjustments during take off and descent?
(Just keeping with the spirit of the "photography" forums.)
And throw in something with the word cosmic. I like that word.
BC
J,
I vote to close the thread :)
But Theo's images are really cute - so we did get something out of that.
Edmund
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OK, enough is enough. This topic is now closed.