Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Mark Lindquist on November 24, 2014, 01:51:11 pm
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For the life of me, I can not get a print to center on an 11 x 17 page with a new to me Z3200 24" printer.
Printing out of PS CC and have been driving myself crazy. Prints keep coming out uncentered.
When I check "centered" they are off. I'm using Tabloid (have tried all 3 selections, and it looks right in the preview.
I have loaded the sheet correctly, but to no avail.
How do you center your prints using Z series printers?
Mavericks, and running TR12-RB_10.0.0.2
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Really?
No HP Z users with an answer to this problem?
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Well Mark...
Never had that problem... But I print from windows, and the last time I printed from Photoshop was a few years ago on CS4, only Lightroom and Qimage since.
Tomorrow I will have a look when in the studio and check if the same problem happens.
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Thanks Geraldo -
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Hello Mark
When you load your sheet did you use the check skew or no check option on the menu ?
And the off center is it in the length or the width of the page ?
Charles
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Hi Charles, welcome to the forum.
Yes, I always use skew check.
The print is off, side to side, not length-wise.
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Mark,
Something worth checking:
PS always tries to center the image on the printable area, not on the sheet of paper. That would not matter when you print on roll media but would produce off-centered prints on cut sheets as the minimum bottom margin is way bigger than the top margin.
The best workaround on HP Z3xxx printer is to configure your printer's settings this way (my driver is not in English, so the translation may not be perfect):
1) Avoid auto-selected paper source, always select roll media or manual feed accordingly.
2) On "Margin/border Layout" select: "Print with margins/borders" and "Cut contents by margin" (This is different of borderless printing as it will report borderless to PS but will not actually print on the minimum border, if there is image over that area it will go blank).
That is usually enough to solve the margin problem, but you may also go ahead and size the whole page before printing. Set your image size as you want and grow white borders around it using "canvas size" to crate an exact replica of the sheet you will use and print with the "cut contents by margin" selected. Remember the unprintable area of 1,7mm on the trailing edge and 5mm on the rest.
I don't know if that is the source of your problems, but it surely was a headache to me when I first got this printer.
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Thank you Geraldo, for looking at this and responding back.
I do use the configurations you discuss, and I sometimes Make the canvas size the size of the sheet.
I will carefully try your method and see if it works, however. I always configure sheet or roll.
I'm wondering if it might not be a driver/firmware issue. The driver I am using is the only thing HP offers for this printer (Z3200) and anything above requires "an agreement with HP " to download.
I haven't been able to get to a place where I can upgrade the firmware, so I'm stuck.
I'll try printing out of LR to see if there is any difference.
Additionally, I suppose I could measure how far off the print is from Left to right and put those dimensions in the print dialog.
Seems like a lot of fooling around to get it centered though....
Here is a screen grab of what I think you are telling me:
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Dunno if this will work for you but I had a similar problem getting alignment right when using roll media and printing with the postscript driver on the z3200. Spoke to HP support and they say that the PS driver produces a full bleed print only, and due to that it will not align properly. Whatever.
Their recommended solution was to use the PCL driver. I switched to that and it prints dramatically faster, produces identical results except that the output can be positioned on the page as specified.
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Additionally, I suppose I could measure how far off the print is from Left to right and put those dimensions in the print dialog.
Seems like a lot of fooling around to get it centered though....
Here is a screen grab of what I think you are telling me:
That is exactly what I meant, unfortunately looks like it is not the cause of your problems.
Never had any centering issues other than the margin related.
Sure, it may be possible to center manually as you described but, I agree, it is not ideal and involve some trial and error.
Just another thought: Some printers do detect the paper placement and adjust accordingly if you load it a bit more to the left or right of the correct place, but the Zs, despite their alignment detection, seems to ignore it. If you load the sheet a few millimeters to the left (or right) your margins will reflect that.
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I found an entire case with boxes of 8.5 x 11 gloss sheets from ages ago. I am determined to figure this out. Think I'll make an image that is a rectangle with diagonal lines and keep fooling with all the parameters until I figure it out. I'll print from each end so that I can get at least two tries on a sheet, maybe more.
Appreciate your continuing to think about this Geraldo. I'll try loading the sheet in a different location, as well.
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Dunno if this will work for you but I had a similar problem getting alignment right when using roll media and printing with the postscript driver on the z3200. Spoke to HP support and they say that the PS driver produces a full bleed print only, and due to that it will not align properly. Whatever.
Their recommended solution was to use the PCL driver. I switched to that and it prints dramatically faster, produces identical results except that the output can be positioned on the page as specified.
Thanks Justin-
This not a PS version, so can't use the ps driver. I believe I'm using the raster driver but will check on the one you refer to. Since I also have a Z3200ps 44" and Z3100 44" I am concerned about too many downloads and conflicts that might arise. Again, thanks for your input Justin - I'll check.
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I just found this on the HP Large Format Forum ( http://http://tinyurl.com/lxdgzv3 (http://tinyurl.com/lxdgzv3) )
search "images not centering"
Makes me feel better that it's not just me ::)
Re: Designjet Z3200 printer not centering image properly
Post Options
12-11-2011 10:56 AM
"I have tried every possible combinations of setting. In the end, if I tell the driver the size of the paper on which I am printing. the size of the print, and that it is centered, the driver knows everything it need to know to properly compute the margins.
I have had HP tech support tell me that because it prints properly using Acrobat it is obviously a Photoshop problem. Somehow HP's competitor, Epson, has figured how to properly compute the correct margins every time.
I doubt that Photoshop says that if it's an HP driver I'll send the wrong setting but if it's an Epson drive I'll sent the correct setting. Yes, I am frustrated!
HP's tech support has also told me that this only happens when the margins are greater than, or maybe was it less than, 2".
Give me a break! This is a problem that has been going on with HP drivers for years and is so reported on their various blogs which they obviously pay no attention to.
The solution is probably a phone call to the group responsible for developing and maintaing the drivers to tell them of the issue. The last refuge of the incompetent is to blame your problem on another vendor. It the most widely-used imaging program in the world, Adobe Photoshop, has a problem printing with your driver correctly, pick up the phone and contact Adobe to work out the problem. Do not expect your customer to do HP's job.
One hopes that this doesn't have to be sent to Meg Whitman to get a solution to the problem.
I'm tired of spending hours, literally, on the phone with HP's tech support who, in the end, are totally incapable of addressing this issue and seem unwilling to refer this to someone who can. I have wasted enough ink and paper that HP ought to give me a set of ink for the Z3200.
the Z3200 is a fabulous printer but the driver is terrible and was obviously designed by people who never worked in the real world. (Why do I need three version of each paper size when I am defining the margins?)
Thanks for letting me get this off my chest...."
(From a disgruntled Z3200 user on the HP forum)
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Yea, I've been using this printer for 8 years and I never figured out the borders either.
Since I only use sheets to print tests it doesn't bother me. But it is weird to say the least. My Canon and Epson machines are right on with even borders with rolls or sheets and of course they are much easier to feed.
john
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Whether a box of sheets smaller than A4s is worth it I do not know but loading sheets is time consuming. That said with Qimage and the PCL3 driver I can use the new Fit to Paper feature in Qimage Ultimate load an A4 and it will cut the print margins off an A4 image (so make sure there is white there in the image) and the A4 image becomes an A4 print. The other way is to add extra printer margin in Qimage Ultimate in Preferences that they become symmetric (one button: Center on Physical Page) and use Fit to Page + Center placement.
Edit: changed instructions to the proper Qimage terms.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
November 2014 update, 680+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Yea, I've been using this printer for 8 years and I never figured out the borders either.
Since I only use sheets to print tests it doesn't bother me. But it is weird to say the least. My Canon and Epson machines are right on with even borders with rolls or sheets and of course they are much easier to feed.
john
Thank you John, for your response and for being honest!
I'll bet NOT ONE PERSON has figured this out, LOL.
I'm inclined to agree with the disgruntled Z3200 user's remarks above. I really enjoyed:
"...The last refuge of the incompetent is to blame your problem on another vendor...."
Yikes - maybe the guy is right.
My Canon and my Epsons also get it right. For such a fantastic printer series, HP drivers really suck.
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Whether a box of sheets smaller than A4s is worth it I do not know but loading sheets is time consuming. That said with Qimage and the PCL3 driver I can use the new fit to sheet feature in Qimage Ultimate load an A4 and it will cut the print margins off an A4 image (so make sure there is white there in the image) and the A4 image becomes an A4 print. The other way is to add extra printer margin in Qimage Ultimate in the options that they become symmetric (one button) and use fit to page + center placement.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
November 2014 update, 680+ inkjet media white spectral plots
Ernst, you're killing me man. I've just upgraded the firmware using VMWare on my Mac and have been screwing with software, drivers, everything all night long.
Qimage does not support Mac, so if I want it to be right, I guess I'll have to buy it for the virtual PC on my Mac. I absolutely hate kluges like this. Maybe I'll have to go out and spring for a PC just so I can run Q-image and print with it.... I find it hard to believe you're not a Mac guy :-)
Doesn't seem right.
BTW - I do print on breathing Color 13 x 19 papers as well as LexJet - mostly Velvets, and it works well for me - I'm a pro at hand loading by now - no big deal. But Ernst, very rarely, if ever, have I known you to be wrong....
-Thanks for weighing in -
-Mark
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Qimage does not support Mac, so if I want it to be right, I guess I'll have to buy it for the virtual PC on my Mac. I absolutely hate kluges like this. Maybe I'll have to go out and spring for a PC just so I can run Q-image and print with it.... I find it hard to believe you're not a Mac guy :-)
Doesn't seem right.
Ha! Before you do that, a word of advice: Qimage is unbelievably competent for the price and can make your life really easy. But, at the same time, is quite frustrating and illogical from the Photoshop/Lightroom user's point of view. After you learn to use it properly and digest some weird interface choices, it is a joy.
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Say it isn't so Geraldo! Weird interface choices?
Oh no, more steep learning curves with non-intuitive programs.....
Why couldn't HP just get this right?
I mean, really?
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I've been through the border problem with several printers in the past - never w/ an HP, though - but the below workflow has always worked:
1) Forget setting a blank canvas size to paper size, as this throws you into the unprintable border problem, as canvas is considered printable area. Use "canvas" only for a specific reason such as a stroke around the image or colored margin.
2) Don't try to "set" borders manually - again you're in the minefield of the printer's unprintable margins - unless you want to set asymmetrical borders.
3) Establish your borders by simply sizing the image to give you the border widths you want - eg. 9x15" @ 300ppi - for 1" borders all round on 11x17" paper.
4) Check "center image" in the driver and print.
Pete
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I've been through the border problem with several printers in the past - never w/ an HP, though
Check "center image" in the driver and print.
Pete
NEVER WITH AN HP THOUGH
Thanks for the input Pete. if you try this on an HP Z Series (Z3100, Z3200) you will start talking to yourself within just a few minutes ::)
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Well voilà! Qimage works! Print centered and placed wherever I want it. Enrst was right again.
So simple, not hard to understand and amazingly accurate.
Only problem is, I am using it on a virtual machine on my mac and I really don't think the monitor will calibrate.
Wow - this makes it a game changer. Could be going back to PC for just printing might do the trick.
Question for anyone reading this that knows about Qimage:
Can you just print an image that has been already edited without calibrating the monitor? Or does Qimage require a calibrated monitor to work correctly with color managed images?
Thanks Ernst, and Geraldo - (and everyone who has responded).
HP Drivers will NOT let you center an image on a Sheet! Just to make a point. Prove me wrong!
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Question for anyone reading this that knows about Qimage:
Can you just print an image that has been already edited without calibrating the monitor? Or does Qimage require a calibrated monitor to work correctly with color managed images?
Hi Mark,
Qimage will take the profile of the input file, and convert the file to the output profile after resampling and (smart) output sharpening. Only if you want to softproof before printing you would need to set your display profile to the correct one, but that display profile is not part of the conversion to the print output itself.
Cheers,
Bart
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That's great to know Bart - I'm printing with Qimage more and more, now. The several prints I've made look fine - comparable, but centered ;D
Appreciate your response -
Best-
Mark
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That is good news Mark!
You can adjust and softproof on PS/LR and use Qimage just for printing.
I use it only for layout, up-sampling, print sharpening and, obviously, printing. None of that requires calibrated monitor or softproofing abilities.
It has some very nice features and once you get the feel of it Qimage makes your life easier.
My favorite feature? The "automated Job log". Today I printed more than 50 large images of different clients on different papers and sizes. As all images were reprints (luckily) I had to set nothing at all! Just searched for the printed jobs (some from last week, some from six months ago), loaded the specified paper and printed.
Make sure to check Mike's forum for news, tips, troubleshooting and feature request.
Good luck!
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Yes it is good news Geraldo, thanks !
What an amazingly powerful piece of software for so little money. That thing is robust!
Still getting to know it, and you're right, it is a tad on the frustrating side to begin with.
Pity they have no plans to develop it for Mac, but that would require a whole rebuild.
Oh well a few extra steps for quality assurance won't kill me.
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I just found this quote from a thread here in printers-papers- inks from many years back:
"...neil snape:
I love it. I suggested HP buy the company and build Qimage into the drivers. They didn't so you still have to use a PC, and fortunately you can still use it with most any printer.
It is simply great...." ( Source (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=23287.15;wap2) )
Would have been great for HP, but then others wouldn't be able to use Qimage today.
edit: added source
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NEVER WITH AN HP THOUGH
Thanks for the input Pete. if you try this on an HP Z Series (Z3100, Z3200) you will start talking to yourself within just a few minutes ::)
Their drivers certainly seem to have earned their infamy!
If the width offset is constant between different paper sizes and is a matter of several mm, the minimal printable border issue would be the prime suspect. Then simply adding the offset measurement in canvas to the proper side of the image should be a usable driver work-around.
Pete
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I've been through the border problem with several printers in the past - never w/ an HP, though - but the below workflow has always worked:
1) Forget setting a blank canvas size to paper size, as this throws you into the unprintable border problem, as canvas is considered printable area. Use "canvas" only for a specific reason such as a stroke around the image or colored margin.
2) Don't try to "set" borders manually - again you're in the minefield of the printer's unprintable margins - unless you want to set asymmetrical borders.
3) Establish your borders by simply sizing the image to give you the border widths you want - eg. 9x15" @ 300ppi - for 1" borders all round on 11x17" paper.
4) Check "center image" in the driver and print.
Pete
Their drivers certainly seem to have earned their infamy!
If the width offset is constant between different paper sizes and is a matter of several mm, the minimal printable border issue would be the prime suspect. Then simply adding the offset measurement in canvas to the proper side of the image should be a usable driver work-around.
Pete
OoooooooKaaaaaaay....
Now I'm confused. At first you're saying "don't" or "never", but now you're saying "do"?
I have a tendency to take the first advice- it is a minefield....LOL
Not so with Qimage, though. Piece of cake.
-Mark
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OoooooooKaaaaaaay....
Now I'm confused. At first you're saying "don't" or "never", but now you're saying "do"?
I have a tendency to take the first advice- it is a minefield....LOL
Not so with Qimage, though. Piece of cake.
-Mark
Although the HP driver certainly seems flawed in centering, I'm assuming that it's not capricious in it's error - simply a bit diabolical! - leaving a work-around possible.
You've never mentioned the magnitude of error, Mark,or whether it's consistent among different paper sizes. Like I said, if it's only a few mm's it's likely the minimum printable border, and the canvas addition should work. It might even be worth trying to solve the driver centering conundrum if nothing else.
Pete
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Pete,
So you're saying create a canvas, let's say 11x17, with an image say 9x15 centered on it, then add the difference, say 3/16" to the right (assuming the image is centered left 3/16" off center), and print borderless?
For the sake of discussion, let's say the above mentioned size is printing off center to the right, by 3/16".
What would your settings be?
Either 9 x 15 centered, or 11x17 borderless for hypotheticals.
Assuming 3/16" = .1875" = 4.765mm
Or are you saying simply move the image 3/16" to the right on the canvas
-Mark
PS - I believe each paper size is off a different amount, but I'll check.
You'll notice, no one on this forum has stepped up and said:
"Oh, yeah, my HP Z Series printer automatically centers sheets no problem" unless they are using Qimage or another specialized printing software.
You are at a disadvantage however, not ever having used one. Your hypothetical argument might work, but I hate screwing around adjusting images right or left when:
1. They should print correctly to begin with, and
2. Qimage just does it, and has many advantages.
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Pete,
So you're saying create a canvas, let's say 11x17, with an image say 9x15 centered on it, then add the difference, say 3/16" to the right (assuming the image is centered left 3/16" off center), and print borderless?
For the sake of discussion, let's say the above mentioned size is printing off center to the right, by 3/16".
What would your settings be?
Either 9 x 15 centered, or 11x17 borderless for hypotheticals.
Assuming 3/16" = .1875" = 4.765mm
Or are you saying simply move the image 3/16" to the right on the canvas
-Mark
PS - I believe each paper size is off a different amount, but I'll check.
You'll notice, no one on this forum has stepped up and said:
"Oh, yeah, my HP Z Series printer automatically centers sheets no problem" unless they are using Qimage or another specialized printing software.
You are at a disadvantage however, not ever having used one. Your hypothetical argument might work, but I hate screwing around adjusting images right or left when:
1. They should print correctly to begin with, and
2. Qimage just does it, and has many advantages.
Mark, I'm using "canvas" in the PS sense of materially enlarging any or all borders of an image, and which is considered a printable area by the printer (may be colored, patterned, etc). In the case of your 9x16 image, adding a 3/16" white canvas to the right side, as the image is offset to the right by that amount, you say.
The screen capture should be self-evident on an image I've sized to 9x16 + 0.187 = 9.187 width. If this does reflect the min. printable margin on the left side, it should work with any paper size.
Creating a canvas the size of the paper always leads to centering problems in my experience, and serves no useful purpose if left clear.
Pete
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OK Pete -
First a little back story. I have begun printing on sheets recently and on this new to me Z3200 24" printer.
Normally I print on rolls, and much larger images, with a Z3200ps 44".
So now, just trying to understand why the Z3200 print driver will not center the image, I just printed an image, sized 9" x 13.549 at 300 PPI. That would make 1" borders left and right.
This surprised me completely. Printing straight out of photoshop onto an 11" x 17" (tabloid) sheet, this printer driver actually ENLARGED the image by 5/32 of an inch. I can not believe it. Here I thought the margins were shifted, but apparently the driver somehow enlarges the image and throws the image centering off. The left margin is exactly 1" and the right margin is .8437 (1" minus 5/32").
I had planned to try adding the amount the margin was off to the image via your suggestion, but now I am really stumped. This is NOT making sense.
See the screen grab of the print dialog box of one of my abstracts.
-Mark
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OK Pete -
First a little back story. I have begun printing on sheets recently and on this new to me Z3200 24" printer.
Normally I print on rolls, and much larger images, with a Z3200ps 44".
So now, just trying to understand why the Z3200 print driver will not center the image, I just printed an image, sized 9" x 13.549 at 300 PPI. That would make 1" borders left and right.
This surprised me completely. Printing straight out of photoshop onto an 11" x 17" (tabloid) sheet, this printer driver actually ENLARGED the image by 5/32 of an inch. I can not believe it. Here I thought the margins were shifted, but apparently the driver somehow enlarges the image and throws the image centering off. The left margin is exactly 1" and the right margin is .8437 (1" minus 5/32").
I had planned to try adding the amount the margin was off to the image via your suggestion, but now I am really stumped. This is NOT making sense.
See the screen grab of the print dialog box of one of my abstracts.
-Mark
Well that's bizarre, with all the right boxes checked to prevent driver scaling.
Have you measured both dimensions of the printed image to confirm that it has been up-scaled in both axes the same percentage - which by my calc. is about 1.75% - giving about 13 25/32" height?
In re-thinking the added side canvas possible work-around, the proper canvas width should be only 1/2 the total error, as you are increasing the shorted side while decreasing the other.
Pete
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Well that's bizarre, with all the right boxes checked to prevent driver scaling.
Have you measured both dimensions of the printed image to confirm that it has been up-scaled in both axes the same percentage - which by my calc. is about 1.75% - giving about 13 25/32" height?
In re-thinking the added side canvas possible work-around, the proper canvas width should be only 1/2 the total error, as you are increasing the shorted side while decreasing the other.
Pete
Yes, correct. You are correct regarding the height - it is 13 25/32" printed when it is 13 7/32 image size.
What do you suggest now Pete?
If the driver is interpolating automatically, it would seem almost hopeless to get a correct print under any circumstances. I never really checked this deeply into the driver and the actual specifics of the output.
I don't make a habit of blaming error on devices, generally I expect that it is pilot error, which I am still concerned about, but in this case, it does seem very odd, and points to the driver, especially when Qimage does print perfectly centered.
I would be still interested in your workaround ideas at this point, if you are still up for more punishment, LOL.
I never like to quit on a problem without finding a solution, but I'm about to throw in the towel on this.
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Yes, correct. You are correct regarding the height - it is 13 25/32" printed when it is 13 7/32 image size.
What do you suggest now Pete?
If the driver is interpolating automatically, it would seem almost hopeless to get a correct print under any circumstances. I never really checked this deeply into the driver and the actual specifics of the output.
I don't make a habit of blaming error on devices, generally I expect that it is pilot error, which I am still concerned about, but in this case, it does seem very odd, and points to the driver, especially when Qimage does print perfectly centered.
I would be still interested in your workaround ideas at this point, if you are still up for more punishment, LOL.
I never like to quit on a problem without finding a solution, but I'm about to throw in the towel on this.
I suppose you could scale the image to 98.25% in the driver and see if the image is still off-centered at or near the original 9" width. And if still off, adding 1/2 the error in canvas to the short side.
If you haven't tried deleting the driver and re-installing the latest version, it's worth a try, as the gremlins within are having a hay day now!
Pete
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Mark,
I just performed a quick test on my side (printer Z3200ps 44", PCL driver, Windows 8.1, PS CC2014):
1) Created a new file 16x24cm (gray background).
2) I didn't bother to set canvas size to fit the paper.
3) On the print window I selected A4 (21x29,7cm) size paper and "clip contents by margin"
4) Loaded the paper (not very carefully) and printed.
The result was almost perfect. The margins were a bit off (1mm or so) probably due to a slightly incorrect load (as I said previously this printer does not compensate for that as some other do), but the gray rectangle is exactly 16x24cm.
Just for the sake of asking, have you checked and option named like "resizing/scaling options" on the driver? It should be set as "original size/no scaling" or something like that.
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Hey Geraldo-
Thanks for doing a physical print- nice to have some concrete evidence that it will work with at least one OS.
Unfortunately, my primary system is a Mac Pro Tower, and I can almost guarantee it won't work. I will definitely take your advice and check out the settings even more carefully just to be sure.
This printer is a revision A type, (which I believe is PC) and I am using the Mac to print on it. Could be therein lies a problem. What is weird is that I just installed Windows 7 on a virtual machine (had an unopened Windows 7 kicking around) and while it installed perfectly, the danged "synchronize paper profiles" in Paper Preset Management is grey'd out and innacessible in color center in HP Utility. I just calibrated a paper and made and installed a custom profile in color center, however, and it shows up in the Mac Color Center. Synchrnize papers just won't work, even after unistall and reinstall, shut down, reboot, etc.. Ugh.
The point of installing Windows on my Mac is to be able to print using Qimage, which is not suported by any Mac OS. I don't plan on duplicating PS and LR on Windows as well, at least not at this point.
I would prefer to just do it all on my Mac, but no way have I been able to get a sheet image centered with the HP driver for Mac.
Again, thanks Geraldo, and Pete for your input. The Mac is a horse of a different color, I'm afraid.
-Mark
EDIT:
Have gotten "Synchronize Paper Settings" working in Windows 7. See:
http://http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=95679.0 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=95679.0)