Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Other Raw Converters => Topic started by: Damon Lynch on October 29, 2014, 11:31:39 am

Title: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Damon Lynch on October 29, 2014, 11:31:39 am
And DxO Viewpoint has been upgraded to 2.5.

http://www.dxo.com/intl/photography/photo-software/dxo-opticspro

The excellent Prime noise reduction is found only in the $200 version. Personally I've always thought the price is pretty expensive, especially given it's upgraded every 12 months. I stick with Viewpoint myself, which I'm most happy with. But I guess enough people like OpticsPro and are happy to pay that much for it for DxO to make a go of it!
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: francois on October 29, 2014, 11:33:44 am
That explains why version 8 was offered for free a few days ago!
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Fine_Art on October 29, 2014, 05:56:16 pm
Their new policy is much better than the old $300 for pro (FF or larger), $100 for basic.
At $200 for a feature set that runs on all cameras, they may actually get some revenue from me.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 30, 2014, 05:44:58 am
It seems that Prime is now 4 times faster and they support the D750.

I bought a license, needs to put it through its pace.

Until now, DxO 9 has been my second converter, behind C1 Pro and ahead of Iridient Developper.

Base/Low ISO is C1 Pro with some images carefully tuned in Iridient Developper (now version 3 beta), everything else tends to be DxO.

We'll see if DxO 10 can change that for D810/D750 files.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Damon Lynch on October 30, 2014, 06:00:02 am
Do let us know how you get on Bernard. I'm interested to hear your views on image quality.  Fine_Art I had forgotten the "elite" version used to be a far from trivial $300!

For myself I'll probably wait until they put it on sale. The noise reduction looks pretty helpful. The other features such as ClearView are less interesting to me personally because I already make heavy use of various Nik and Topaz tools, but I can definitely see the attraction of having as much as possible in one RAW convertor.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on October 30, 2014, 07:47:50 am
And DxO Viewpoint has been upgraded to 2.5.

http://www.dxo.com/intl/photography/photo-software/dxo-opticspro

The excellent Prime noise reduction is found only in the $200 version. Personally I've always thought the price is pretty expensive, especially given it's upgraded every 12 months. I stick with Viewpoint myself, which I'm most happy with. But I guess enough people like OpticsPro and are happy to pay that much for it for DxO to make a go of it!

Does anybody know if the Working space is still limited to Adobe RGB? I know one can output ProPhoto RGB, but that's just Adobe RGB converted to a larger gamut colorspace.

Mind you, Adobe RGB is probably good enough for web display (they're all spaces with RGB primaries), but for printed output one often needs something closer to the capabilities of the output medium (also secondary/mixed colors are possible with (CMY) inks that allow high saturation where Adobe RGB can't) to make the best of that.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Damon Lynch on October 30, 2014, 08:05:43 am
Good point Bart - I totally forgot about that issue. I have no idea about its internal working space. When discussing file export, on the other hand, the User's manual states this on p. 57:

ICC Profile (ELITE Edition)
The ICC profile for the output file (with the exception of DNG format) can be the same profile as the source image, the sRGB, Adobe
RGB, or a custom profile. The sRGB profile is particularly suitable for Web publication and inkjet printing, while Adobe RGB is best
adapted to retouching and publishing. In these cases, TIFF is the ideal output format. A custom profile will allow you to choose a
specific profile.


I guess someone could test it with a RAW file that exceeds the Adobe RGB gamut.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on October 30, 2014, 08:18:01 am
I guess someone could test it with a RAW file that exceeds the Adobe RGB gamut.

Yes, or perhaps significantly increase saturation, and save as Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB, then compare them. They might be a bit different depending on how the converter encodes the data, the rendering intent, but a PPRGB should allow to encode much more saturated colors.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Damon Lynch on October 30, 2014, 10:27:14 am
I haven't tried importing a TIFF into DxO.

However I just did a small experiment with a CR2 from my 5D Mark II  days, featuring a lady riding a bike wearing a heavily saturated red jacket. It was taken wide open with an 85mm f1.2 Mark II. I compared the output of DPP 3.14 vs DxO 10 vs. LR 5.6. Things I immediately noticed:




Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Damon Lynch on October 30, 2014, 12:19:43 pm
In case anyone does want to purchase the "Elite" edition of DxO 10, or Capture 1 Pro 8, B&H currently has a special with $50 off the electronic downloads of both. I have no idea about any geographic restrictions, however.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: JimAscher on October 30, 2014, 01:20:06 pm
While I have been a longtime fan of DxO, and still use its version 8 (which I bought years ago, but which is now free!), I have been using it less since acquisition of my (now) principal camera, the Ricoh GXR/Leica lens module, which produces RAW images in the DNG format, and which DxO unfortunately still won't accept (except for current Leica cameras).  I've had a long email exchange with DxO Customer Service about this with no solution in sight.  Very frustrating. 
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on October 30, 2014, 01:59:10 pm
The excellent Prime noise reduction is found only in the $200 version.
Excellent? Really. I can make my images look just as smeary and unsharp in LR and much quicker too.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Ligament on October 30, 2014, 04:12:25 pm
The continued use of AdobeRGB as the internal working space is stupid. They should have fixed this many versions ago.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on October 30, 2014, 04:16:39 pm
I've been trying Dx0 out again and it seems more like a buggy pre-release early version where the UI hadn't been sorted yet.
The lack of being able to manually set white balance or see in sub folder in its 'organiser' means that right from the start it's rather useless.
Overall it's amateurish and a bit crap in my view. Very disappointing.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on October 30, 2014, 04:17:36 pm
The continued use of AdobeRGB as the internal working space is stupid. They should have fixed this many versions ago.
The lack of DNG support as Jim mentions above is also mind numbingly idiotic.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: robgo2 on October 30, 2014, 07:34:56 pm
While I have been a longtime fan of DxO, and still use its version 8 (which I bought years ago, but which is now free!), I have been using it less since acquisition of my (now) principal camera, the Ricoh GXR/Leica lens module, which produces RAW images in the DNG format, and which DxO unfortunately still won't accept (except for current Leica cameras).  I've had a long email exchange with DxO Customer Service about this with no solution in sight.  Very frustrating. 

This is puzzling.  I have a Pentax K-01 whose raw files are DNG, and DxO 9 is capable of opening them.  However, it cannot open Adobe DNG, so obviously, there is a difference between Pentax and Adobe DNG.  Ricoh GXR must utilize either an unsupported proprietary DNG or Adobe DNG.  I do agree that it is stupid and shortsighted for DxO not to support the Adobe format.

Rob
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 30, 2014, 08:31:30 pm
Excellent? Really. I can make my images look just as smeary and unsharp in LR and much quicker too.

If that's what you think it shows that you haven't spent enough time with DxO because that simply isn't the case.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Denis de Gannes on October 30, 2014, 10:36:21 pm
The lack of DNG support as Jim mentions above is also mind numbingly idiotic.
Why? This is a very debatable subject lots of Pro's and Con's. Matter of opinion.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: kirkt on October 30, 2014, 10:39:41 pm
Re: DNG support.  I can open a 5DIII raw image in ACR, and save it as DNG (compatible with 7.1, the most recent version available as a choice in ACR for CC).  I can open this DNG in DxO 10.  This also works using DNG Converter, as one would expect.  If you produce a linear [demosaiced] DNG (v 1.4, for example, in the ACR/DNG Converter) DxO cannot open it.

The DNGs produced by the Magic Lantern dual ISO utility cr2hdr are also compatible with DxO 10.

I also shoot with a Ricoh GR, a camera that produces raw files natively as DNGs.  I can open these in DxO 10, as well as DxO 9 (I did not own the camera when I was using DxO 8 or earlier).  The GR is a fixed focal length lens with no AA filter, and it has its own DxO correction module.

kirk
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 30, 2014, 11:53:38 pm
I also shoot with a Ricoh GR, a camera that produces raw files natively as DNGs.  I can open these in DxO 10, as well as DxO 9 (I did not own the camera when I was using DxO 8 or earlier).  The GR is a fixed focal length lens with no AA filter, and it has its own DxO correction module.

So I guess our friend JJJ will be more than happy to withdraw his mind numbingly idiotic comment? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on October 31, 2014, 06:34:56 am
So I guess our friend JJJ will be more than happy to withdraw his mind numbingly idiotic comment? ;)
Why should I? It is true?
Dx0's a complete and utter waste of time in my view. For example as Jim mentioned above, it doesn't support DNG files as such and because Dx0 doesn't support the open DNG standard or many other cameras it is therefore is about as useful to me as a steaming pile of monkey poo. Yes it may support the odd camera that uses DNG, but that is not the same as support for DNG which is to repeat myself is an open standard. One invented to to avoid this very issue.
Why would anyone invest time and effort into software that the developers cannot even be bothered to support all cameras? The next camera you may buy and love may not make the Dx0 criteria for inclusion. In fact Dx0 doesn't support any of the pocket cameras I have owned until the RX100III and I think that's why I never got as far as testing it before.

Mind you it's so badly designed and buggy, I still wouldn't use it if if they had got their act together regarding camera support.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: JimAscher on October 31, 2014, 10:23:21 am
Re: DNG support...  

I also shoot with a Ricoh GR, a camera that produces raw files natively as DNGs.  I can open these in DxO 10, as well as DxO 9 (I did not own the camera when I was using DxO 8 or earlier).  The GR is a fixed focal length lens with no AA filter, and it has its own DxO correction module.

kirk

The difference here, as Kirk points out, is that for his Ricoh GR, as opposed to my Ricoh GXR, DxO has created a "correction module."  In my lengthy email exchange with DxO Customer Service, they ultimately informed me that because the GXR model was being phased out by Ricoh, it wasn't really worth their while to create a separate correction module for it. 
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on October 31, 2014, 11:01:06 am
The difference here, as Kirk points out, is that for his Ricoh GR, as opposed to my Ricoh GXR, DxO has created a "correction module."  In my lengthy email exchange with DxO Customer Service, they ultimately informed me that because the GXR model was being phased out by Ricoh, it wasn't really worth their while to create a separate correction module for it.  
It's not worthwhile buying software whose developers have that attitude. Why would anyone buy camera software from a company who may or may be bothered to add your camera, even if the the files it outputs are a standard easily read by say LR, Windows/OSX without any updating.
C1 appears to be of the same mindset from a recent discussion I had regarding the new version with one of it's promoters. So I won't waste any time or money in a product that half-arsed.
No point having the best processing engine in the world if it doesn't even work with DNG files or cameras that are not deemed worthwhile.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Damon Lynch on October 31, 2014, 01:29:35 pm
JJJ this is my take: as has been discussed in these forums, merely having a camera output DNG does not auto-magically mean that every RAW convertor that supports DNG will instantly work with it. The developers still have work to do to in order to support it. Maybe the camera manufacturer will help them, maybe not. The Ricoh model you have is a niche model compared to other models, making it less likely it will be supported by third party convertors. It doesn't mean you don't have a very fine camera, and as you note you have other choices of convertors; you can ignore DxO's offerings.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on October 31, 2014, 03:35:47 pm
JJJ this is my take: as has been discussed in these forums, merely having a camera output DNG does not auto-magically mean that every RAW convertor that supports DNG will instantly work with it. The developers still have work to do to in order to support it. Maybe the camera manufacturer will help them, maybe not.
I don't recall any cameras that record DNG having to wait for LR to update to use it. Which was one of the points of establishing such a standard.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Valdo on November 01, 2014, 02:17:51 am
And DxO Viewpoint has been upgraded to 2.5.

http://www.dxo.com/intl/photography/photo-software/dxo-opticspro

The excellent Prime noise reduction is found only in the $200 version. Personally I've always thought the price is pretty expensive, especially given it's upgraded every 12 months. I stick with Viewpoint myself, which I'm most happy with. But I guess enough people like OpticsPro and are happy to pay that much for it for DxO to make a go of it!

In the Elite version is also the ClearView. Excelent results, but use the slider in a conservative manner.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: johnscherrer on November 04, 2014, 01:52:50 am
Hi.  I am newly here.  I have just recently been using a GXR with M adapter and love it.  May I ask what DNG processor you are using?  I was an Aperture user but am looking to switch because Apple will no longer support it.  Regards, Jack
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 04, 2014, 05:09:15 am
Hi Jack, most people on LuLa seem to use Lightroom, though Capture One has supporters. But like DxO it is more limited in its camera support with similar issues with DNG support.
Just looked at the LuLa raw processing forums and about four times as many topics on LR/ACR compared to all the other options combined.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 04, 2014, 09:18:07 am
Hi Jack, most people on LuLa seem to use Lightroom, though Capture One has supporters. But like DxO it is more limited in its camera support with similar issues with DNG support.

DNG files converted by Lightroom are supported since version 10.

http://www.dxo.com/intl/photography/community/tutorials/optimizing-your-dxo-opticspro-10-and-lightroom-workflow

It's possible to check whether a camera and camera/lens combo is supported here. Most are, with the exception of MF backs.

http://www.dxo.com/intl/photography/photo-software/dxo-opticspro/supported-cameras

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: JimAscher on November 04, 2014, 09:52:41 am
Hi.  I am newly here.  I have just recently been using a GXR with M adapter and love it.  May I ask what DNG processor you are using?  I was an Aperture user but am looking to switch because Apple will no longer support it.  Regards, Jack

Jack:  As with the other respondents to your query,  I use Lightroom for my raw conversions, no matter which of my cameras I'm using.  However, to get around the DxO inability to convert my GXR DNG files, I will occasionally convert the DNG file to tiff (either in Lightroom or Photoshop) and then send it to DxO for processing when I still want to utilize some of the advantages DxO offers.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 04, 2014, 10:26:02 am
DNG files converted by Lightroom are supported since version 10.
But DNG files out some cameras are not, which was my point. Not to mention having to buy Lightroom to convert files to use in Dx0, seems like a good reason not to bother with Dx0. Do they really expect people to convert their DNG files to DNG files to then import into Dx0?

Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: ario on November 04, 2014, 10:40:21 am
But DNG files out some cameras are not, which was my point. Not to mention having to buy Lightroom to convert files to use in C1, seems like a good reason not to bother with C1. Do they really expect people to convert their DNG files to DNG files to then import into C!?


C1 does not support dng files converted in LR or in DNG converter, only native dng files are supported.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 04, 2014, 12:05:18 pm
C1 does not support dng files converted in LR or in DNG converter, only native dng files are supported.
Duh, typed C1 when I meant DxO. Better correct it.
Though C1 doesn't accept all native DNG files either.  ::)
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 04, 2014, 04:31:27 pm
But DNG files out some cameras are not, which was my point. Not to mention having to buy Lightroom to convert files to use in Dx0, seems like a good reason not to bother with Dx0. Do they really expect people to convert their DNG files to DNG files to then import into Dx0?

As mentioned higher in this thread, DNG files produced by most cameras were already supported since DxO 9 and still are in DxO 10.

When this was made clear to you, you said that what mattered was the support of Adobe generated DNG files. ;)

What are the remaining gaps in terms of DNG support from your point of view?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Denis de Gannes on November 04, 2014, 05:41:58 pm
What does DNG have to do with the usefulness of DxO Optics Pro as a Premium Application for processing raw files from digital cameras.

DNG is the product of Adobe and it has many benefits which users of Adobe Products can take advantage of in their workflow. Not necessarily so for people who use other software to process their raw files that may or may not provide support for DNG files.

If you have painted yourself into a corner by converting your photo files to DNG and have not retained your original raw files produced by your camera, so you are unable to use software applications that do not support DNG, then that is your choice. DNG is not an adopted standard format, despite having been actively promoted by Adobe for over ten years.

Most of the major camera manufacturers (Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, Olympus, Sony, FujiFilm to name a few) have completly ignored its existance and the software they provide also do not support DNG.

This link provides a fair assesment of the current situation.  http://members.lightroomqueen.com/Knowledgebase/Article/View/1159/183/should-i-convert-to-dng

I for one use Lightroom as my main processor for rendering my raw files and I am pleased with the performance. I am particularly please that all the work that I do on my files is stored in the Catalog file so I have no use for "sidecar" xmp files for storing data. If I need to send files to Photoshop for additional work I use the "edit in feature from Lightroom".

I also utilize a few other raw processing software applications on occasions, some of which do not support DNG. As a result DNG has no place in my workflow, to me it's like the proverbial "Tower of Babel" from the Bible.

At this stage I think DxO and Capture One have leapfrog-ed Lightroom / ACR in terms of the quality processing of raw data. I expect this to be corrected with the release of LR 6. Competition is what drives the development to the benefit of the user.

Hey this is why I retain my original raw files to benefit from superior processes in the future.  
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: kers on November 04, 2014, 06:51:07 pm
I just tried DXO10 on a 12800asa exposed D810 image: i did not like it - you get a structure shown in the shadows.. ACR does a better job and Nikon NXD - as awful its workflow is -produces for now the best high iso image rendering.. I have not tried Phase one8 on it, but i do not like its (bad) sharpening... However at high iso that will not be an issue...
What I never liked about DXO is its blackbox way of handling the raw- somehow i never understand what it is doing...i feel out of control.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 04, 2014, 07:28:05 pm
I just tried DXO10 on a 12800asa exposed D810 image: i did not like it - you get a structure shown in the shadows.. ACR does a better job and Nikon NXD - as awful its workflow is -produces for now the best high iso image rendering..

Was that with Prime noise reduction?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 05, 2014, 05:26:43 am
What does DNG have to do with the usefulness of DxO Optics Pro as a Premium Application for processing raw files from digital cameras.

DNG is the product of Adobe and it has many benefits which users of Adobe Products can take advantage of in their workflow. Not necessarily so for people who use other software to process their raw files that may or may not provide support for DNG files.

If you have painted yourself into a corner by converting your photo files to DNG and have not retained your original raw files produced by your camera, so you are unable to use software applications that do not support DNG, then that is your choice. DNG is not an adopted standard format, despite having been actively promoted by Adobe for over ten years.
Always a good idea to check facts before having a pop at others.
DNG can also be a native raw file format used by off the top of my head...Hasselblad, Leica, Pentax, Ricoh. Which is what it was designed for actually - a format that anyone can use free of charge to stop needless file variations and let photographers use their current software with a new camera without waiting for unnecessary updates. The fact that C1/Dx0 do not support this open standard shows they are not worth buying, as why would you invest in software that can't be bothered to support all cameras, not even ones with a standard file format? Your next camera may not be one they deem important enough to add.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 05, 2014, 06:04:11 am
As mentioned higher in this thread, DNG files produced by most cameras were already supported since DxO 9 and still are in DxO 10.

When this was made clear to you, you said that what mattered was the support of Adobe generated DNG files. ;)
No I didn't, you now seem to be making things up now to argue your case.  ::)
I was only talking about support for out of camera files. Having to convert to DNG for use in Dx0 as you suggested, is a bodge as far as I am concerned.

Quote
What are the remaining gaps in terms of DNG support from your point of view?
Rather obviously, the fact that not all cameras that use an open file standard are not supported.


Whilst double checking for the mythical post you alluded to I found a post of yours that I missed.

Excellent? Really. I can make my images look just as smeary and unsharp in LR and much quicker too.
If that's what you think it shows that you haven't spent enough time with DxO because that simply isn't the case.
Well seeing as the examples Dx0 use to promote this feature also look equally crappy to my eyes, you better tell the folks that make DxO they need to learn to use their product better.  :P
You seem to be missing the actual point I was making. Yes there may be less noise, but the end result is not an improvement in my eyes and I don't particularly like how LR does it either. I wasn't saying LR is better at NR. I prefer images with some noise/grain to less sharp images, other may prefer less grain as expense of detail sharpness and if so, Dx0 or LR's NR may suit them just fine.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Denis de Gannes on November 05, 2014, 07:48:53 am
Always a good idea to check facts before having a pop at others.
DNG can also be a native raw file format used by off the top of my head...Hasselblad, Leica, Pentax, Ricoh. Which is what it was designed for actually - a format that anyone can use free of charge to stop needless file variations and let photographers use their current software with a new camera without waiting for unnecessary updates. The fact that C1/Dx0 do not support this open standard shows they are not worth buying, as why would you invest in software that can't be bothered to support all cameras, not even ones with a standard file format? Your next camera may not be one they deem important enough to add.

The camera manufacturers you name are all renowned for high quality products. However the market statistics speak for themselves the major camera manafacturers have not accepted the "DNG Standard". This is the point I am trying to convey.
https://www.google.tt/search?q=camera+market+share+2013&client=firefox-a&hs=Ag1&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=0RlaVIO2CMGeNsGagKAP&ved=0CBwQsAQ&biw=1493&bih=688
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 05, 2014, 09:22:47 am
No I didn't, you now seem to be making things up now to argue your case.  ::)
I was only talking about support for out of camera files. Having to convert to DNG for use in Dx0 as you suggested, is a bodge as far as I am concerned.
Rather obviously, the fact that not all cameras that use an open file standard are not supported.

Really?

Dx0's a complete and utter waste of time in my view. For example as Jim mentioned above, it doesn't support DNG files as such and because Dx0 doesn't support the open DNG standard or many other cameras it is therefore is about as useful to me as a steaming pile of monkey poo. Yes it may support the odd camera that uses DNG, but that is not the same as support for DNG which is to repeat myself is an open standard. One invented to to avoid this very issue.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 05, 2014, 09:43:08 am
Don't be such a doofus Bernard, I was quite specifically talking about out of camera DNG files that Jim had mentioned. I was most certainly not talking about files converted to DNG, which is another matter entirely
If you wish to interpret posts in a such a lazy way without bothering to read things in context, I'll not bother to read your posts at all.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 05, 2014, 09:46:49 am
The camera manufacturers you name are all renowned for high quality products. However the market statistics speak for themselves the major camera manafacturers have not accepted the "DNG Standard". This is the point I am trying to convey.
https://www.google.tt/search?q=camera+market+share+2013&client=firefox-a&hs=Ag1&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=0RlaVIO2CMGeNsGagKAP&ved=0CBwQsAQ&biw=1493&bih=688
No you, like Bernard  didn't bother to read posts correctly and made a spurious and irrelevant argument about DNG. Market share also has nothing to do with what was being talked about when it came to the point being made - which was despite DNG being a file standard that doesn't need software updating to be read by say Lightroom, does for C1 and DxO. If they can be bothered.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 05, 2014, 09:47:35 am
Don't be such a doofus Bernard, I was quite specifically talking about out of camera DNG files that Jim had mentioned. I was most certainly not talking about files converted to DNG, which is another matter entirely
If you wish to interpret posts in a such a lazy way without bothering to read things in context, I'll not bother to read your posts at all.

You are really something JJJ. What's so hard with admitting that your apparent hatred of DxO is based on old information? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 05, 2014, 09:51:23 am
My contempt for DxO is based on the latest version, which still has the same old problems.
Anyway you are the one making mistakes with your reading, own up to it.

Also why assume I hate it? Hating takes too much effort and is a waste of time. Disappointed that another possible alternative to LR is a not up to scratch, yes.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 05, 2014, 09:54:49 am
MY contempt for DxO is based on the latest version, which still has the same old problems.
Anyway you are the one making mistakes with your reading, own up to it.

Fair enough, so what are the shortcomings of DxO 10 relative to DNG support?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 05, 2014, 10:27:09 am
Really? You are really having to ask that again?
It doesn't support DNG files as such, it only supports specific camera models.  See Jim's posts above re this.
LR supports DNG files from any camera, no update needed which was a, if not the main reason for establishing the idea of DNGs.

The reality is people buy new cameras and then ignorantly whinge at Adobe, Apple Etc that their new camera is not supported by software which was designed long before the camera was manufactured. Apparently the only difference in a raw file that breaks the compatibility can be as basic as the model name. Which is something I recall someone like Thomas Knoll at Adobe saying at one point.
If Leica, Pentax etc release a new camera you can work on your raw files as soon as you get camera. No waiting months for a software update, after some pointless reverse engineering has been done.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: kirkt on November 05, 2014, 01:15:45 pm
I think it is more succinct to state that DXO does not support the GXR.  The GXR is a specialized camera that permits the use of lens/sensor modules that plug into a camera body.  Some other raw converters support this camera, some do not.  To state that DXO does not support the DNG specification because it does not support a specific camera that uses DNG as its native output is a stretch.  Why DXO choose not to support the GXR is beyond my knowledge, and it appears that the original post regarding the GXR stated that the plea for support has fallen on deaf ears - an entirely different, but maybe more applicable, reason not to like DXO as a tool for processing your images.

kirk
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 05, 2014, 03:19:38 pm
I think it is more succinct to state that DXO does not support the GXR. 
Amongst other cameras.

Quote
The GXR is a specialized camera that permits the use of lens/sensor modules that plug into a camera body.  Some other raw converters support this camera, some do not. 
The physical construction of a camera is utterly irrelevant. We are talking about the raw files a camera outputs which is nothing to do with physical form factor.

Quote
To state that DXO does not support the DNG specification because it does not support a specific camera that uses DNG as its native output is a stretch.  Why DXO choose not to support the GXR is beyond my knowledge, and it appears that the original post regarding the GXR stated that the plea for support has fallen on deaf ears - an entirely different, but maybe more applicable, reason not to like DXO as a tool for processing your images.
Numerous cameras are not supported by Dx0, some with DNG, some without. It's quite tedious to find out which ones as rather than simply list cameras supported/not supported, you have to actively search and click on each individual camera model, if even listed. This kind of indicates to me they are trying to disguise their lackadaisical support for cameras. My last 3 pocket cameras are not supported for example, several Leicas, some Pentaxes and after that I lost the will to trawl through their user unfriendly interface.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 05, 2014, 04:37:32 pm
So DxO does clearly support the open format called DNG as of DxO 10:
- it supports most cameras outputting natively DNG files,
- it supports DNG files converted by Adobe for archival purpose for supported cameras.

There are just a small number of cameras that are not supported by DxO, but it has nothing to do with DNG.

This factual status is very different from what you implied several times is this thread. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 05, 2014, 05:49:45 pm
So DxO does clearly support the open format called DNG as of DxO 10:
- it supports most cameras outputting natively DNG files,
- it supports DNG files converted by Adobe for archival purpose for supported cameras.

There are just a small number of cameras that are not supported by DxO, but it has nothing to do with DNG.

This factual status is very different from what you implied several times is this thread. ;)
How on earth did you draw that conclusion from where I state it doesn't support all DNG cameras beats me. Oh yes this is how....
See the part I bolded in your post, it directly contradicts your previous sentence.
In case you were wondering why -  'most' does not equate to 'all'. Which has been my point all along. Supporting DNG means all camera that output DNG, not just some of them.

I have no idea why people simply can't admit that a  product they like is flawed and have to defend it to the death and ignore awkward facts.
Personally I think LR is great programme, but heck I won't ever try and insist it's perfect. Because like all software it's certainly not without issues and dumb parts.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 05, 2014, 05:57:28 pm
You have a definition of "support" that is pretty unique. The reason being that DxO supports DNG in what must represent 99.5% of cases. Claiming non support because of the remaining 0.5% defies common sense. ;)

Will U at least ackniwledge that?

There is no need to like DxO to state that.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 05, 2014, 06:24:14 pm
So are you just making up percentages now to try and defend your pet software?
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 05, 2014, 06:26:14 pm
BTW supporting DNG means supporting all DNG files regardless.
Adding support one at a time for individual cameras that use DNG is not the same thing.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: JimAscher on November 05, 2014, 06:33:22 pm
Anyone following this thread might be also interested in a possibly more detailed discussion of this issue last year in the Photo Net forum.

http://photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00bj5j?start=0
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Denis de Gannes on November 05, 2014, 06:46:52 pm
BTW supporting DNG means supporting all DNG files regardless.
Adding support one at a time for individual cameras that use DNG is not the same thing.

Your mythical perception that DNG is an accepted standard is what has clouded your mind to think others who do not use DNG files are inferior or deranged. Have a nice day.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: kers on November 06, 2014, 08:09:05 am
here an example - ACR vs DXO10   

a nikon 12800 images even a bit underexposed.

ACR much more grainy - but dxo smutches detail and has banding.. in the dxo image a patternis visible in the blacks - but not in ACR nor NXD
I do not mind the grain, but have to take care of the white pixels.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 06, 2014, 09:57:54 am
here an example - ACR vs DXO10  

a nikon 12800 images even a bit underexposed.

ACR much more grainy - but dxo smutches detail and has banding.. in the dxo image a patternis visible in the blacks - but not in ACR nor NXD
I do not mind the grain, but have to take care of the white pixels.

Kers,

Did you use Prime here or the regular noise reduction?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Valdo on November 06, 2014, 03:09:51 pm
I realy don't understand this jjj, he is spending so much time writing about something what he dont like.
What you like jjj? taking pictures when you are not busy troling in the forum? "testing" software in the free download period? Maybe something else?

I was reading this to find out something more about DxO, but what I get its only your shit.

Cheers!



My contempt for DxO is based on the latest version, which still has the same old problems.
Anyway you are the one making mistakes with your reading, own up to it.

Also why assume I hate it? Hating takes too much effort and is a waste of time. Disappointed that another possible alternative to LR is a not up to scratch, yes.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Isaac on November 06, 2014, 06:30:54 pm
I was reading this to find out something more about DxO

Ignore the posters you don't find helpful and acknowledge those you do find helpful -- Don't feed trolls.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: kers on November 06, 2014, 08:01:13 pm
Sorry Bernard I forgot- i used PRIME...

Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 06, 2014, 11:38:04 pm
Sorry Bernard I forgot- i used PRIME...

OK, clear, thanks.

Agreed, the way OoF areas are noise reduced in your sample shows the appearance of some banding. It would be interesting to see how they look in low ISO images of the same scene shot on tripod, but I know you don't have those. :)

In some areas, the "banding" seems to correspond to the transition line between lit areas and shadows, but that is probably not the only problem indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: kers on November 07, 2014, 08:15:16 am
Grain shows more profound on screens than in print. For that i do not mind some grain.
I always print everything 150dpi-124cm wide - to see what happens
Personally i do not like at all the way noise reduction programs in general handle the image; smearing all the details.
But i do think the d810 high iso files does need chromatic noise reduction.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 08, 2014, 07:52:20 am
DxO + film pack may have become my favourite B&W conversion application recently.

A couple of examples shot with a D750 + 85mm f1.4 AF-S.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7476/15552763569_cfb6a865c8_o.jpg)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3953/15553819040_10c1d7441b_o.jpg)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: Damon Lynch on November 08, 2014, 04:08:00 pm
Those are two rather beautiful images Bernard! Fantastic work! (The blown highlight on her left wrist in the first is a little distracting, however.)

Having experimented, I find myself turning to DxO 10 for problematic files, such as from my 5D days, whose high ISO performance by today's standards is poor. This CR2 from 2007 was badly under-exposed. In 100% view the girl's hair is a mushy mess but that's a limitation of the data in the CR2, not the processor.

(http://www.pbase.com/dflynch/image/72772097.jpg)

Another use for I find for DXO 10 is where clear view can do a good job nice and quickly.  As an aside, I'm finding that in the trip back to LR, the color rendering in LR is considerably more subdued.

Meanwhile I still use DPP and LR for plenty of images too. I still maintain nothing touches DPP when it comes to certain lenses like the EF16-35 f/2.8L. And I also still make a lot of use of Topaz, Nik and Piccure+ plugins too.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2014, 12:24:04 am
Those are two rather beautiful images Bernard! Fantastic work! (The blown highlight on her left wrist in the first is a little distracting, however.)

Thank you Damon, it is easy with a cute model! ;)

Having experimented, I find myself turning to DxO 10 for problematic files, such as from my 5D days, whose high ISO performance by today's standards is poor. This CR2 from 2007 was badly under-exposed. In 100% view the girl's hair is a mushy mess but that's a limitation of the data in the CR2, not the processor.

Nice image!

Yes, same here. It works very well with files of the RX100 as well for instance.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: totoche on November 10, 2014, 02:49:45 pm
Jack:  As with the other respondents to your query,  I use Lightroom for my raw conversions, no matter which of my cameras I'm using.  However, to get around the DxO inability to convert my GXR DNG files, I will occasionally convert the DNG file to tiff (either in Lightroom or Photoshop) and then send it to DxO for processing when I still want to utilize some of the advantages DxO offers.

Hello,

I am new on this forum. Sorry for my english (I am french)

For all of you frustrated to not be able to use DxO with your Ricoh GXR, I have used free DxO 8 to convert GXR DNG.
I have done the test with my A16 24-85 and A12 28 modules by I think it should work with all others modules.

Here is the procedure :

- download ExifTool http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/

- modify the exifs of your DNG files to make DxO think it can convert it (DxO can convert Ricoh GR)
use the command : exiftool.exe *.DNG -Make="PENTAX RICOH IMAGING" -Model="GR" to modify all the DNG in the directory.
ExifTool make a copy of the original file with the extension _original.

- you can use DxO with the new DNGs ! do not use optical correction (distorsion ...)

Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: JimAscher on November 10, 2014, 05:32:30 pm
Hello,

I am new on this forum. Sorry for my english (I am french)

For all of you frustrated to not be able to use DxO with your Ricoh GXR, I have used free DxO 8 to convert GXR DNG.
I have done the test with my A16 24-85 and A12 28 modules by I think it should work with all others modules.

Here is the procedure :

- download ExifTool http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/

- modify the exifs of your DNG files to make DxO think it can convert it (DxO can convert Ricoh GR)
use the command : exiftool.exe *.DNG -Make="PENTAX RICOH IMAGING" -Model="GR" to modify all the DNG in the directory.
ExifTool make a copy of the original file with the extension _original.

- you can use DxO with the new DNGs ! do not use optical correction (distorsion ...)



Totoche:  Your remedy sounds fascinating.  However, even though I am mildly conversant with the workings of exiftool, I am unable to get your solution to work.  Per your instructions, I have downloaded and installed the latest version of exiftool (even though I had an earlier version already on my hard drive), and installed it in my "pictures" directory (where all my DNG files reside).  But when running the command line it comes up claiming not to find a qualified file.  I hope to use your method I don't have to run the tool picture by picture.  Can you please give me more detailed instructions?  You may send me a personal message, so we don't unnecessarily burden this thread with too esoteric information.  Thanks, Jim
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: totoche on November 10, 2014, 05:56:03 pm
Did you download this http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/exiftool-9.75.zip ?

Rename the exe to exiftool.exe, normally it should work.

(sorry but time to go to bed in France now  :) )
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: JimAscher on November 10, 2014, 05:59:39 pm
Did you download this http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/exiftool-9.75.zip ?

Rename the exe to exiftool.exe, normally it should work.

(sorry but time to go to bed in France now  :) )

Yes, I did all that.  Bon soir.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: totoche on November 11, 2014, 04:13:30 am
try this command instead :

exiftool.exe -ext dng . -Make="PENTAX RICOH IMAGING" -Model="GR"
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 18, 2014, 08:49:38 am
Your mythical perception that DNG is an accepted standard is what has clouded your mind to think others who do not use DNG files are inferior or deranged. Have a nice day.
Congratulations on missing the point and then completely misrepresenting what I wrote and think.
Title: Re: DxO OpticsPro 10 is here
Post by: jjj on November 18, 2014, 09:04:40 am
I realy don't understand this jjj, he is spending so much time writing about something what he dont like.
What you like jjj? taking pictures when you are not busy troling in the forum? "testing" software in the free download period? Maybe something else?

I was reading this to find out something more about DxO, but what I get its only your shit.
So, do you think people are only allowed to post nice things and if they are critical of a flawed product, then they are a troll? Which apparently then means you can be abusive towards them. You seem like a lovely addition to the Forum.  :-\
I simply tried the software again as a new version was out to see if I could add it to my toolset, disappointingly I found it still lacking in many areas and said what I thought. Others [fanbois] got upset that I dared to point out flaws and came out with all sorts of nonsense and misreading of posts to justify DxO, I simply replied.

As to what I do, I'm a professional photographer and occasionally when I have some free time I pop in here. So what do you do when you aren't being rude to others?