Luminous Landscape Forum

Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: Andres Bonilla on November 30, 2005, 11:43:06 pm

Title: CRASH
Post by: Andres Bonilla on November 30, 2005, 11:43:06 pm
Ok, all hell broke loose last night, my friend came to install my new dvd drive because I was weary to try it myself. He pull the old one, it did not open, and installed the new one. When he turned the computer on it kept on restarting and finally he could not even reboot on safe mode. He told me to reformat because something went bad with the installation. Last night I did what I have done several times, I pulled my trusted Windows 2000 cd and proceded with the reformatting of my C drive, everything went smooth until the cd starting copying files, all the sudden I got a warning saying this Shell 32.dll filing was missing, then the smlogfc.dll was missing FINALLY I got the blue scrren of death that I have never gotten in my 4 years with this computer. Something about a kmode_exeption not handle it, maybe disable bios or memory options such as caching or shadowing etc. etc. I don't have a clue since this box has been solid. I use the new dvd to boot from there, should I try tonight my old cd rom? Any suggestios is appreciated.

Andres
Title: CRASH
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 30, 2005, 11:55:33 pm
I'd help you if I could, but I can't. While some members of L-L are very computer savvy, you may find it you get more advice from a website forum that specializes in Windows XP issues.
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 12:11:31 am
My first instinct from that limited description is a bad power supply.  Look in your bios, usually under Health, see if the readings are within 0.1v of the specifications.  Usually on a bad unit you'll see the 12v rail down to 11.6-11.7 or so, which only gets worse under load.  Even if that all looks good it can still be bad under load during operation especially boot or OS load.  It can also make perifrials appear broken or break.  I would swap the PS with a new one at least to rule it out - they are cheap and are only good for 2-3 years anyway.

I would also make a boot floppy with memtest and verify your ram sticks are good.  

I would also download the hard drive diagnostic from whatever your brand's website is and boot that, to check the drive.

If all that looks good I would suspect a bad motherboard, usually it means a failed drive (IDE, SATA) controller.
Title: CRASH
Post by: DarkPenguin on December 01, 2005, 12:45:16 am
Did you load drivers for your IDE controller at the start of the windows 2000 load?  If not you'll get errors like those.
Title: CRASH
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 01, 2005, 04:47:04 am
Isn't that a signal from the gods of trade that your time has come to buy that new double core CPU box you've been secretely dreaming of?

Sorry not to be able to help more...

Regards,
Bernard
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 08:03:44 am
Quote
Did you load drivers for your IDE controller at the start of the windows 2000 load? If not you'll get errors like those.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=52541\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No you don't.  specialized IDE drivers simply make some chipsets work faster, they are never needed for compatibility, the standard windows IDE drivers always work fine.
Title: CRASH
Post by: DarkPenguin on December 01, 2005, 09:07:33 am
Quote
No you don't.  specialized IDE drivers simply make some chipsets work faster, they are never needed for compatibility, the standard windows IDE drivers always work fine.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=52551\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's incorrect.
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 09:37:20 am
Prove it.  Show me one example of an IDE controller that NEEDS a specialized driver rather than the standard Win2k+ driver.
Title: CRASH
Post by: Jack Flesher on December 01, 2005, 10:24:55 am
Quote
Prove it.  Show me one example of an IDE controller that NEEDS a specialized driver rather than the standard Win2k+ driver.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=52556\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

IMO XP is way more stable than Win 2K.  

FWIW, I have a friend that is selling his P4 3.6 HT, with 4G ram, 80G main drive with XP OS, CD writer, and three or four free expansion slots for more drives, all for $550.  Might be worth considering and you could even load your new DVD burner into it.  Maybe get your old box reconfigured as an image storage server.  Just a thought.

Good luck,
Title: CRASH
Post by: DarkPenguin on December 01, 2005, 10:40:22 am
Quote
Prove it.  Show me one example of an IDE controller that NEEDS a specialized driver rather than the standard Win2k+ driver.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=52556\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The IDE controller in pretty much any via chipset motherboard I used back when win2k was new.

I've also had issues with one of my SIS motherboards.

No issues with Intel and I'm about 90% certain I didn't have any on my nforce boards.  (Although the IDE on the original nforce was bad enough to get me to buy a promise controller card.  Can't remember if I had issues with those or not.)

I'm sure I was mistaken, tho.
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 10:59:52 am
Exactly right, you were mistaken.

Here's what Via says about thier IDE Driver:

"VIA IDE Miniport Driver
The VIA IDE Miniport driver is now a legacy driver that was originally designed to increase IDE performance and enhance IDE support provided by Microsoft's default driver. Much of those enhancements have now been included with Windows Service Packs however and the VIA IDE Miniport driver is not required.
This driver will increase IDE performance on NT4 based Microsoft operating systems (Win9X, NT4 & ME) but users should note that once it is installed it cannot be uninstalled."


Here's what Nvidia says about the early Win2k IDE driver:

"Improved handling of the following devices:
Sony 4821 CD-ROM
Justlink RW7200A CD-RW
Yamaha CRW2100E CR-RW
Toshiba XM-5302TA
Toshiba XM-6002B
Samsung SW-216B
Lite-On 48X CR-ROM
Teac CD-W540E
Improved compatibility with 3rd-party drive management, CD ripping and recording software.
Automatic DMA-mode fall-back when data errors are present due to poor cabling
Full NVIDIA RAID functionality on supported platforms* * Serial ATA and NVIDIA RAID functions are supported on select NVIDIA products only. Products that support this technology are identified by the * on this web page."



As I said - specialized IDE drivers are ONLY for enchancement.  If you had issues with devices working on the standard MS drivers, you had other issues to start with.

The lack of a specialized chipset/IDE driver is NOT responsible for an error on the HD or a BSoD.
Title: CRASH
Post by: DarkPenguin on December 01, 2005, 11:04:43 am
LOL!
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 11:07:33 am
I just noticed this thread is in the wrong section
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 11:11:53 am
Quote
Did you load drivers for your IDE controller at the start of the windows 2000 load?  If not you'll get errors like those.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=52541\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I just realized something - perhaps you are thinking of 3rd party drivers such as RAID drivers?  Are you thinking about when you press F6 to load the driver during the OS load?
Title: CRASH
Post by: DarkPenguin on December 01, 2005, 11:23:34 am
It belongs on a different site more than anything else.

To explain my LOL.  After working on storage drivers (FCAL) from about 99-04, I think Via is being optimistic.

If the hardware is correct then you do not need additional drivers.  One of the problems with achieving this is that windows drivers list a set of hardware IDs that they are compatable with.   Microsoft takes compatable to mean will absolutely positively work with that piece of hardware.  If the hardware isn't correct or the drivers listed something they do not work with it will not work.  So if a vendor puts out a driver to work with all their IDE chips from now until the end of time they better be sure.  This is kind of why you'll see it look like it is going to work only to have it fail.  Because windows thinks it has a driver that will work.
Title: CRASH
Post by: DarkPenguin on December 01, 2005, 11:26:24 am
Quote
I just realized something - perhaps you are thinking of 3rd party drivers such as RAID drivers?  Are you thinking about when you press F6 to load the driver during the OS load?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=52568\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I was thinking about that, too.

He didn't indicate raid.  But what I can't recall from my raid cards (they are in the machine graveyard in my basement) is if I needed a special driver just to use them at all.  In non raid mode.
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 11:34:25 am
Yes RAID cards need the driver before the OS load to even be seen.  If it was not loaded at that time the OS would not even have loaded - the next screen would say - Drive not found, please reboot.

You can think VIA is optimistic all you like - the fact is, if the stock driver didn't work, he would have no OS to even boot to.  As with above, if the IDE controller/chipset was not supported by the stock driver set, no drive would be found at the OS install.  It's not the issue here.

Unless you can show me something documented that says 'without this OS load level driver (F6), your IDE hard drive will not be recognized', you are incorrect.

I can't wait for the original poster to come back with the solution
Title: CRASH
Post by: DarkPenguin on December 01, 2005, 11:50:53 am
He was reinstalling.  He got to the point where the installtion was going to copy all the files from the windows installation CD to the hard disk.  This is the point where an incorrect driver would show itself.

Whatever, tho.
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 12:01:11 pm
Wrong yet again.  

He was installing fresh, he said FORMATTING.  Also, the error he received is AFTER files start to copy.  If the driver was the issue it would NOT even get to that point - like I said, it would come back with 'Drive Not Found' and no files would even START to copy.

"I pulled my trusted Windows 2000 cd and proceded with the reformatting of my C drive, everything went smooth until the cd starting copying files, all the sudden I got a warning saying this Shell 32.dll filing was missing"
Title: CRASH
Post by: DarkPenguin on December 01, 2005, 12:05:01 pm
It doesn't work that way.  Sorry.
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 12:30:39 pm
Well, I'm done arguing...think what you will, it doesn't change a thing.
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 12:51:44 pm
OK one more - couldn't resist!  I did a reload without my raid driver...Youre' right, this is really a file copy error screen!  ROTF!        

[attachment=42:attachment]
Title: CRASH
Post by: DarkPenguin on December 01, 2005, 01:06:25 pm
Would someone step in and tell him he's right?  I can't do it but he sure seems to want that affirmation.

Different error.

Why don't you find an old intel 440BX based motherboard that lets you "prove" it works?

I said it earlier.  The driver and hardware have to be mismatched.  It isn't that the driver simply doesn't exist.
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 01:20:08 pm
Oooh I see....so now it's 'mismatched' hardware and the stock driver...even though there is no such thing as a 440BX standalone win2k IDE boot driver

Keep grabbing, but you're running out of straws  
Title: CRASH
Post by: DarkPenguin on December 01, 2005, 01:30:24 pm
I've stayed on message.  The only question I had was what would happen if you tried a raid card without drivers.  You've answered that for your raid.

This was my previous message.

Quote
If the hardware is correct then you do not need additional drivers. One of the problems with achieving this is that windows drivers list a set of hardware IDs that they are compatable with. Microsoft takes compatable to mean will absolutely positively work with that piece of hardware. If the hardware isn't correct or the drivers listed something they do not work with it will not work. So if a vendor puts out a driver to work with all their IDE chips from now until the end of time they better be sure. This is kind of why you'll see it look like it is going to work only to have it fail. Because windows thinks it has a driver that will work.
Title: CRASH
Post by: DarkPenguin on December 01, 2005, 01:33:01 pm
Quote
Oooh I see....so now it's 'mismatched' hardware and the stock driver...even though there is no such thing as a 440BX standalone win2k IDE boot driver

What?  That wouldn't prove your case?  I thought that would be ideal for you.  And about as valid as your last test.
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 01:38:13 pm
Show me a SINGLE case where this has happened - go ahead, google, search all the forums you can find - show me where a 440BX (or any for that matter) IDE controller was not properly supported by the default driver and gave errors after install.  Just one.  It's such a big issue and you seem to be the expert (hehe), why it should be very easy for you!  Come on...one link...

What you are saying is 100% pure BS.  You're either terribly confused or just completely full of it.

One example...that's all it takes.  If what you say is true, it will have been discussed for over 7 YEARS on the net and archived everywhere in discussions/support/FAQ/tech bulletins, etc.

I know you won't find squat.
Title: CRASH
Post by: DarkPenguin on December 01, 2005, 01:53:00 pm
Quote
Show me a SINGLE case where this has happened - go ahead, google, search all the forums you can find - show me where a 440BX (or any for that matter) IDE controller was not properly supported by the default driver and gave errors after install.  Just one.  It's such a big issue and you seem to be the expert (hehe), why it should be very easy for you!  Come on...one link...

What you are saying is 100% pure BS.  You're either terribly confused or just completely full of it.

One example...that's all it takes.  If what you say is true, it will have been discussed for over 7 YEARS on the net and archived everywhere in discussions/support/FAQ/tech bulletins, etc.

I know you won't find squat.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=52592\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Exactly!  I've said nothing different.  For the 440bx it would always work!  Isn't that the perfect proof for you?  Doing something you know will work?  Like I said, it would be just as valid as your other test.

I'm done with this.  You're in my ignore user list.  I suggest you put me in yours.
Title: CRASH
Post by: DarkPenguin on December 01, 2005, 02:09:28 pm
I almost forgot.

I appologize to the community and the site owner/operators for my behavior.  Getting snotty with people is hardly the norm on this site.  I should respect that.
Title: CRASH
Post by: Andres Bonilla on December 01, 2005, 02:09:40 pm
Ok, all the tech talk is getting a bit confused but thank you for taking interest in the matter. Last night I tried the reformatting out of my trusted cd rom with a new set of errors, even a spanish one  ole.dll  After a bunch of these including one with imaging system 32 etc ( I am at work but I have the errors written ) I was asked to reboot but now something is missing that prevents Windows to load up. Here is my thing, my computer always worked with my HD's and my Via motherboard, I have always been told that my power supply is more than capable of running my box. I do not have a RAID configuration and my computer worked flawesly until he installed the DVD DRIVE. Could it be that something got zapped? The drivers that came with the computer were compatible with everything for 4 years, why would the drivers be an issue now? Could something be out of place inside the computer?
I may have to call an engineer because if I can get the computer to even reboot how could I check for Bios and all that? Not I know how
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 02:13:49 pm
As I said the drivers are not part of your issue.

While the power supply sticker on the side may say it has enough wattage for your system, that really doesn't mean a thing.  Even if it IS a high quality unit (most are labelled high wattage but are utter crap inside), putting out true power - it will still go bad after a few years.  Often I see this when equipment is changed like adding or changing drives, yes.  When the power load changes, it can cause the unit to go over the edge.  Sometimes all it even takes is physical movement or unplugging things.  

I stand my my original suggestions for troubleshooting.

If you were around Tampa I would give you a unit to swap in and test!
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 02:26:04 pm
Here's a good example of why power supplies are important and should not be skimped on.

The wattage rating is only part of what you look for with a good PS unit.

On the left is a cheap 400w PS, Award brand.  On the right is a Thermaltake 430w.

Notice the additional and larger windings, coils and capacitors, along with 2x the heatsink area and additional fan.  All this means purer power, holding at a true voltage spec with more equipment connected, with fewer power dips and spikes during use - and that it will last significantly longer before burning out.

never, ever - skimp on a PS unit.  When in doubt, hit the popular PC forums for recommended brand names - there are always 6-8 brands offering exceptional build quality, and they really aren't that expensive.  I just bought a 700w unit with all the bells and whistles for $109.  This Thermaltake 430 watt (good for the vast majority of systems) is only $40.
[attachment=44:attachment]
Title: CRASH
Post by: DarkPenguin on December 01, 2005, 02:35:09 pm
Quote
Ok, all the tech talk is getting a bit confused but thank you for taking interest in the matter. Last night I tried the reformatting out of my trusted cd rom with a new set of errors, even a spanish one  ole.dll  After a bunch of these including one with imaging system 32 etc ( I am at work but I have the errors written ) I was asked to reboot but now something is missing that prevents Windows to load up. Here is my thing, my computer always worked with my HD's and my Via motherboard, I have always been told that my power supply is more than capable of running my box. I do not have a RAID configuration and my computer worked flawesly until he installed the DVD DRIVE. Could it be that something got zapped? The drivers that came with the computer were compatible with everything for 4 years, why would the drivers be an issue now? Could something be out of place inside the computer?
I may have to call an engineer because if I can get the computer to even reboot how could I check for Bios and all that? Not I know how
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=52602\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The short answer would be that after reinstall you no longer had those drivers in the system.  I'm not saying it is your issue but it has been mine in the past.

Does your video card require a power connection from the power supply?  If so is it still connected?  Most current cards will not run if they do not have their extra power but I've one that would do all the text mode stuff fine.

Are all your IDE cables connected tightly?

Is the DVD drive on the same cable as the hard disk?  If so are the master/slave settings correct?

Did your hard disk come with a utility to test your drive?  If so you might want to run that.  It isn't impossible that it got fried.

If you still have trouble installing you could also try to "dumb down" the IDE settings for your hard disk.  It can make install take forever but sometimes it keeps the default driver from trying to run a mode it really isn't capable of.

And power supplies can go bad.

When changing something like a DVD drive you should unplug the machine but leave your monitor connected.  That way you have no power going to the motherboard but still have a ground through the video cable.
Title: CRASH
Post by: kaelaria on December 01, 2005, 02:50:04 pm
Quote
The short answer would be that after reinstall you no longer had those drivers in the system.  I'm not saying it is your issue but it has been mine in the past.

Ignore that.

Does your video card require a power connection from the power supply?  If so is it still connected?  Most current cards will not run if they do not have their extra power but I've one that would do all the text mode stuff fine.

Ignore that too - for those video cards that require a power connection, you don't get a screen at all, and they beep - if you leave off the power wire.  Not even related to your issue.

Are all your IDE cables connected tightly?

Again, ignore.  The drive would not work at all if the cable was loose.

Is the DVD drive on the same cable as the hard disk?  If so are the master/slave settings correct?

Again...if the jumpers were improperly set, first of all the new drive would not even be recognized.  2nd, your original drive would still work.  3rd, the hard drive would not be effected as far as errors.  Not related.

Did your hard disk come with a utility to test your drive?  If so you might want to run that.  It isn't impossible that it got fried.

As I already suggested.

If you still have trouble installing you could also try to "dumb down" the IDE settings for your hard disk.  It can make install take forever but sometimes it keeps the default driver from trying to run a mode it really isn't capable of.

Complete non-sense, see above.  Ignore.

And power supplies can go bad.

As I already suggested.

When changing something like a DVD drive you should unplug the machine but leave your monitor connected.  That way you have no power going to the motherboard but still have a ground through the video cable.

I don't know what world this guy lives on, but I bet the sky is a pretty shade of green!  Ignore.  Nonsense...utter nonsense.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=52608\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: CRASH
Post by: Andres Bonilla on December 01, 2005, 03:29:21 pm
Oh boy!! I am in trouble! I would not know how to change the power supply or swap it, I will call this guy and see if he can do something about it, otherwise I may have to pay to have a  computer guru to fix this mess.
Title: CRASH
Post by: Mike Bailey on December 02, 2005, 03:16:12 pm
Andres,

Another possibility is that when the DVD was installed, the controller cable for the hard drive(s) was crimped, nicking one of the edges so that you might be getting intermittent failure.  You should also check to make sure none of the cards or other cable connections, like to the DVD drive are loose or not firmly seated.

Not very exotic, but one of the first things to check before doing anything else.  Even though I've installed any number of things in computers for years, I still manage to inadvertently jiggle something loose once in awhile and not notice it until the computer itself complains.

Mike
Title: CRASH
Post by: Andres Bonilla on December 02, 2005, 09:13:36 pm
Mike, tomorrow a technician is going home to check on the computer but his first suggestion was that....a jumper cable got unplugged, moved or damaged. I hope is something fixable and not a permanent damage.

Andres
Title: CRASH
Post by: Trig on January 15, 2006, 05:24:30 am
Quote
Mike, tomorrow a technician is going home to check on the computer but his first suggestion was that....a jumper cable got unplugged, moved or damaged. I hope is something fixable and not a permanent damage.

Andres
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=52716\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

To be honest, that sounds a little dumb. The technician sounds like hes spouting jargon at you.

OK... after all the flaming that took up most of this thread and didnt actually help Andres, i thought i'd register and hopefully provide some insight.

Let me just get one thing straight, i dont care which of you is right, which of you has been on the internet longest and which of you knows the most about computers. Its not the question here is it.

OK Andres, our house has about 6-7 pcs networked, including a few linux servers, this isnt relevant but what is, is the fact when 1 of these machines started blue-screening i decided to reinstall the machine... maybe its registry had corrupted or something.

This machine has particularly old hardware (1ghz athlon with old style 133mhz dimms) so, all should be good. Anyway, i was installing off the cd, and i received the same sort of errors, that files were missing, but you could still skip through the installation hitting return.

OK.. i thought maybe one of two things... maybe some files were being cached in physical memory then paged to the disk after a partition had been created (not sure if it does this, but i tried replacing the ram anyway).. no change on the installation...

I decided to call it a night, and the next day thought i'd try it again out of curiousity. Strangely enough it installed ok.. no errors.. Booted up fine, installed hardware, rebooted.. BSOD.. reboot, boots fine.. 10 mins later.. BSOD.
So i thought what else could it be... so i reboot the machine once again to find my SYSTEM and SOFTWARE registry are BOTH corrupt.

It was the Hard Disk Drive! It was paging stuff to the page file and unable to retrieve it properly causing these BSOD's, also when it saved the registry changes after modifications it was corrupting the registry. Now faulty ram could cause this also so thats why initially i went in that direction.

The machine has been fine since, no BSOD's, and its the machines the idiots in our house use, so its full of spyware too!