Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: Chairman Bill on October 16, 2014, 07:42:24 am
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I've pretty much given up on a clear D700 upgrade - 36 MP is possibly more than I need, the DF is flawed, and the D750 is more of what the D600/610 should have been & a replacement for them, more than a D700 successor (though I'd be happy with the 24 MP).
My quandary is this - Do I go for the D750, a D810, or a second hand D800/e (a used D800 is potentially the cheapest option & most bang-for-buck deal)?
Trying to work out the relative merits of one over the other, is problematic, though I am erring more towards a used D800. Is the D810 worth saving the extra for (though the D900 might have been released by then), or would a D800 now(ish) be the way to go? Should I save that bit extra & go for the D750, or might I find it difficult living with the significant change from the D700? Or should I just keep the D700 & stitch when I want a large file to print big (not an option with portraiture, but the D700 is probably ample for that anyway)?
I'm shooting mainly landscape, but as mentioned, some appreciable amount of portraiture too. I'm using a 50mm f1.8G, an 18-35, 24-120 f4, 60mm D micro, 85mm f1.8 & a 300 f4 AF-S - not sure whether there really are any issues with these & 36 MP, though some maintain that there are.
Thanks beforehand for your replies.
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So much depends on your shooing style and printing needs. When I got back into Nikon FF about a year ago, I debated D600 vs D800. The D800 gave me 50% more pixels, but also more weight and more expensive. Do I really need 36MP? No, I am not a sharpness nazi and with a 24" printer I could get truly excellent prints from 24MP, high-quality lenses, and good technique (I also get great prints from my 16MP M4/3 system). So, the D600 it was and I have never regretted it. But, if you regularly print 44" or wider the extra pixels might be worthwhile.
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It's not a question that anyone else can easily answer for you, Bill.
All I can say is that, having used a D800 and a D800E together, I sold the D800 and got a D810 so that I am now shooting a D800E and a D810. That is a combination that I am really satisfied with.
But I am an amateur shooting mainly landscape, travel and wildlife, so my requirements may be very different from your own.
What I would say is that I could never, honestly, claim to be able to discern any difference in image quality between the D800 and D800E, but there is a discernible improvement with the D810. (as always, with the caveat that I can only talk about my own genres of photography.) Also, the new metering mode in the D810 (also, I believe, now in the D750) is a real bonus.
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I'm doing similar calculus myself. I shot a D300 for a long time and 'sidegraded' to a D7100. The D7100 was an upgrade in some areas and downgrade in others.
I am limiting myself to the D810 or D750. And until the D750 is fully exercised it is hard to tell if the specs actually indicate performance. My bottom line is if the D750 feature set was packaged in the D810 body, that is what I would buy!
Looking at what I feel are the biggest differences:
D810 button interface versus D750 dial interface - I can tell you that the D300 was orders of magnitude less frustrating to operate than the D7100. Example, I was shooting on the coast at morning twilight and needed to switch from to M mode. On the D300 it would have been push button and spin wheel while looking in the viewfinder. On the D7100 it was pull out the phone, shine the light on the Dial on the top of the camera. Try to hold the phone and push the little button in the middle while using the other hand to turn the dial! Thank god it was all mounted on a tripod! Why Nikon would perpetuate that half assed, 1970s interface and segregate their lower end consumers from a clear upgrade path to more expensive stuff is beyond me. (And don't get me started on why neither the consumer or pro side has full nameable shooting banks when every setting on a modern camera is set electronically!)
Size and Weight - I actually prefer beefier feeling cameras. I am steadier when hand holding. The D810 is much more comfortable in my hands even though I have small hands. If you the weight and size are constraints, then obviously smaller lighter is better.
36MP versus 24MP - I actually don't need 36 MP for most of what I do, but if you are doing things like Multi-Shot images where part of the image will be 'wasted' in the stitching process or if you can't afford the long lenses and do a lot of cropping, then 36MP might be handy. The D810 in DX mode gives a little faster frame rate and a few more MPs than the D750. I intend to keep the D7100 so not expecting this to be an issue for me. Also, the D810 pixel size is 4.87μm while the D750 pixel size is 5.95μm at the same sensor size. That means the D810 is exhibit more diffraction blur at the same apertures. I've attached a JPEG showing the 1x, 2x and 3x diffraction limits of the cameras.
Low Pass Filter - Theoretically, the D810 should exhibit a little more per pixel sharpness at the expense of potential moire and diffraction.
Noise and High ISO performance - Theoretically, the D750 should exhibit less noise and better high ISO performance just based on the larger pixel size, but real world performance has not yet been confirmed.
Dynamic Range - This should be a horse race, but again not verified.
AF Performance - Theoretically the specs say the D750 should be better, but just because it uses a new CAM module doesn't mean that module is better. I'm not expecting a big difference.
WIFI - Having this built in with the D750 could be especially handy if you use remote control shooting like Helicon Remote. Not sure I would do much sending images to my phone and such.
Tilting Screen - If you shoot low to the ground or in other awkward situation, this could be handy.
***UPDATE - Usability***
The D750 has a square viewfinder window and D810 round meaning various accessories MIGHT fit. I have an old Minolta Right Angle Finder that was modified to fit my Nikon Film bodies. It might work on the D810. The D750 has a higher eyepoint though.
The D810 has a viewfinder shutter while the D750 requires the use of the DK-5 plastic window guard when doing longer exposures.
The D810 has the 10pin connector for hooking up various Remote Releases. My ML-20 is a lot more functional than the MC-DC2 that is used on my D7100.
The D810 has both AF/AE lock and AF ON buttons. The D750 does not have a dedicated AF-ON button, but you can reprogram the AF/AE Lock button.
The D750 uses 2 SDHC cards while the D810 has the stupid 1CF/1SDHC configuration. I personally prefer CF for speed and durability, but if I can't get a camera with 2 CF slots, then 2 SDHC slots seems preferable to a mixed configuration. Unfortunately, circumstances may make CF disappear in the not to distant future.
The D810's base 64 ISO combined with slightly higher 1/250th flash sync could be handy.
It is exceedingly clear Nikon has segregated the D800 into the 'pro' camp and the D750 into the 'enthusiast' camp not only by their own designation, but by limiting the functionality and usability of the D750 and designing it to operate differently than the pro cameras. I know several photographers that use the D810 and D7100, but that is only because there is no DX 'pro' body camera since the D300s. I think this is a glaring hole in Nikon's lineup. I'd love to see the D800/D800e disappear and be replaced by a 24MP DX body of the same type as the D810. If fact in the pro range, in addition to the D# full size bodies, I'd love to see 3 identical bodies 24MP DX, 24MP FX and 36MP FX.
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Thanks for the comments so far. A D750 spec in a D700 body would be just about right. The ergonomics of the D700 just feel right for me, so that might be in part answering my own question, and lead to one of the D8**s, and anyone of them is going to be a significant upgrade I'd imagine.
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Bill, as a D800 user I would recommend a D750. I like to think I need the 36 mp for landscape and my Zeiss lenses, but I probably don't. Where I really think the D750 makes it's mark, not withstanding all it's other attributes, is the fact that it weighs 750 g. versus the 880 of the D810. As I grow a bit older I'm starting to appreciate the weight factor. But for myself, I have already decided to wait for a mirrorless FF Nikon. Until that happens (never?) the D800 will suffice.
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Bill,
Tough call, they are 3 great cameras.
Having used extensively the d800 for 2+ years, the D810 since it was released and the D750 as back for a few weeks, my personal preference goes to the D810.
it may be related to the fact that I tend to use heavier lenses more (Otus, 85mm f1.4G,...) but the D810 just feels right. It does also deliver very very nice images when processed in C1 Pro 8.
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2947/15205804990_af49dd7ab5_o.jpg)
I have more samples here (https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/72157645832791611/) in case you are interested.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Thanks for that. A new D810 is going to take some serious saving though. How much better is it than a D800?
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Thanks for that. A new D810 is going to take some serious saving though. How much better is it than a D800?
I will answer this in a general sense. Answer this question: Would you pay half the price and get and iphone 4 (Samsung S3) or pay up for an iPhone 6 (Samsung S5)? Most people keep a phone 1-3 years. How long do you intend to keep this camera? Amortize the difference over that time?
If we were talking film bodies, then getting a 2 or 3 year old body would not even be an issue. However, with Digital bodies it is THE issue. Since you are SAVING for it, then like me you are looking at it as a longer term investment. I have yet to jump back to FF due to price initially, but quality as well. Unlike a lens that can hold up well over time, digital bodies do not. To my mind, the D810 and possibly the D750 are the first Nikon FF Digital cameras that I could both afford and wouldn't mind getting stuck with for an extended period of time.
That is how I approach the decision: While my first FF Digital body most likely won't be my last (I'm 50 years old), it damn well better be something I wouldn't mind dying with. I don't like changing cameras because I become more effective and efficient the longer I use the same model.
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Well I've been shooting a D700 for a few years now, and I'd like to think that what follows it will do for the next five or six at least
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Well I've been shooting a D700 for a few years now, and I'd like to think that what follows it will do for the next five or six at least
A soon as you shoot any 36MP camera you wil notice the weak spots of our lenses... so maybe save some money for that and buy a d800 second hand...
The d800e has better detail- the d810 has the same detail as the d800e but has better autofocus etc... anyway loads of information om the internet...
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This thing about lenses - how much of an issue is it, and for those who know, of the lenses I've listed, which are likely weak spots?
This morning I've also tried a D750 & D800 side-by-side, and the D800 was like using my D700, whereas the D750 was going to entail some changes. I can also get a decent used D800 for about £500 less than a new D750, which might be the clincher. Some more musing to do.
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Bill, Ming Thein has a new article on the D750 you might find interesting.
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Thanks for that. A new D810 is going to take some serious saving though. How much better is it than a D800?
The key values for me are:
- Electronic First Curtain makes shooting with long lenses on tripod much easier, sharp images every time now,
- a more "robust" AF,
- live view fixes all the shortcomings of the D800 (pixelization, delay after exposure),
- ISO64 and even cleaner files,
- a much quieter mirror/shutter makes shooting in quiet locations a lot less stressfull.
When converted with C1Pro 8, the D810 files have something magic to them when viewed at 100% that was not 100% there with the D800. This is especially true when using top lenses such as the Otus.
A familly relative to whom I showed an 8.5x11 portrait printed on Baryta paper a few days ago said "it looks like the person is there for real". It's hard to point out, but there is indeed a "reality" in these files that may be similar to that extra thing some medium format shooters claim they see in their images.
The D750 is nice too, but the D810 has that extra level of refinment in everything it does. Hard to compare image quality since C1 Pro and DxO don't support the D750 yet.
As a long term investment the D810 is a no brainer to me.
Cheers,
Bernard
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When converted with C1Pro 8, the D810 files have something magic to them when viewed at 100% that was not 100% there with the D800. This is especially true when using top lenses such as the Otus.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard, is this using the D810 Profile or the IQ250 Profile?
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I bought the D800, but I still kept my D700, and there many times I am still using it. You may find the same. The D600/610, the Df and the D750, none of them "cut it" for me as a true upgrade to the D700. I think the D800/810 will be the closest thing you will find.
One other option, when I was upgrading from my D7000 to my D700, I did not get rid of my D7000. I sent it off and had an infra-red conversion done to it. Since then, I have found several uses for my "old" D7000. You may consider the same for your "old" D700 or any older digital SLR. If you already have the camera, it is in good shape, and you know the market today is not going to give you a lot for it, and especially if you are used to that "old" camera, you might find one of the several IR conversions really does breath new life into an older DSLR.
good luck
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I'm using a 50mm f1.8G, an 18-35, 24-120 f4, 60mm D micro, 85mm f1.8 & a 300 f4 AF-S - not sure whether there really are any issues with these & 36 MP, though some maintain that there are.
all lenses you have will do fine in the center one stop down- it is the corners (as usual) that will be more problematic...
Usually you have to take the best aperture to have good corners...and extreme corners d11.. I only have the 1.8G 50mm- it is a good lens for the money -i think only the coating is not that good- the sigma 1.4 Art is better. (Your best lens will be probably the 85mm 1.8 and the 60 micro nikkor...)
A cheap lens that does really well corner to corner at d11 is the f2 35mm nikkor...at least my copy.... but the coating is not as good as the later Nano nikkors
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Thanks all for the comments.
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It seems in US there is a decent deal right now for the D750 with the 24-120 (which should be ok on 24 MP) at 3000, about 600 less than both. That is if you need a zoom.
PS. Never mind, I just saw you already have the 24-120, I'll leave the post if somebody else is interested
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I bought the D800, but I still kept my D700, and there many times I am still using it. You may find the same. The D600/610, the Df and the D750, none of them "cut it" for me as a true upgrade to the D700. I think the D800/810 will be the closest thing you will find.
Agree with your take. If you were shooting the D700 or D300/D300s, there is no true upgrade path for you. What I mean is that the way these cameras handle it would push you to the D810. However, it is bigger, heavier and with more MP, and therefore slower than D700 or D300/D300s really want or need. The D750 and D610 feel and operate differently, not withstanding their excellent specifications and performance.
In my perfect world, Nikon would have taken a smaller, lighter body than the D810 in the 'pro' construction and operating style and dumped the D750 Specs into it with a tad more buffer capacity, slapped a D710 badge on it and priced it at $2700. Then taken that same damn body, dumped a 24MP DX Sensor into it with a tad more buffer, priced it at $2200, slapped a D710dx badge on it and called it a freaking day! Then people looking to have 2 camera bodies would easily choose to pair up any 2 of the 3 and been happy. While the D750/D7100 pair makes sense, there is no real camera to pair with the D810 that makes sense. And you still have a hole for the D700 shooters looking for a lighter, faster full frame camera in the 'pro' operation paradigm (button interface instead of idiot dial, 10pin connector, etc.).
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Problem with Nikon is they are designing cameras to hit price points and not cannibalise higher spec models. Maybe the 7d2 and the mirrorless competition could persuade them to build that D300 replacement.
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Bernard, is this using the D810 Profile or the IQ250 Profile?
I used to use IQ250 profiles for my D800, but as of C1 Pro 8 I use the native D810 profiles for the D810.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I used to use IQ250 profiles for my D800, but as of C1 Pro 8 I use the native D810 profiles for the D810.
Cheers,
Bernard
Yes, the C1 native D810 profile is much better than what Phase did for the D800/e. I also use the Phase IQ250 and Credo 50 profiles on my d800e shots.
Paul
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Bernard,Paul, Appreciated. The introduction of the 810 has released a flood of the previous models, regretably my Mac requires replacing to run C1 v8, so updating is doubly expensive. Looks like I'm better off, financially, being a generation back. I'm enjoying my H1 at the moment with film backs with newly arrived CF/ H adapter but putting a digital back on looks less attractive especially as I have a P20 for the V still. Too many cameras and choices.
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Chris
Glad to help. So far I am very impressed by the D810. I am able to pull 3 to 3.25 stops of exposure with very clean shadows. Details are better with less sharpening needed. Extremely clean at base ISO of 64. I also am finding that the higher ISO ranges are better than my D800e especially on long series of stacked exposures 1.5 to 2 hours.
It's an impressive upgrade over the D800 family. I can only imagine how the IQ250 and Credo 50 images look.
Paul
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I'm still eying that D750 with the kit (while on sale) with few primes (85 1.8, 50 1.4, +/- 28 1.8, 20 1.8 or maybe 35 1.8, with some thoughts of 135 2.0).
Or I could just get the 56 1.2 for my X-T1.
As you can see I'm starting to has severe GAS :P Question is for those who have both how much do you see a difference in output?
I know I will regain faster autofocus and some higher ISO quality.
One of the reasons is that I hate dealing with X-Trans in LR and I'm too lazy moving to something else.
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Just an update on my upgrade.
I wandered into my local camera shop, just for a look at their used stock. Whilst chatting with one of the guys there, he mentioned that they'd had three Nikon D800s direct from Nikon, ex-demo stock, and had one left. I had a look - perfect condition, with a 6-month Nikon UK warranty, and at a price I couldn't resist - £1299. I've seen well-used copies go for considerably more on ebay. So I now have a Nikon D800. Job done.
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Just an update on my upgrade.
I wandered into my local camera shop, just for a look at their used stock. Whilst chatting with one of the guys there, he mentioned that they'd had three Nikon D800s direct from Nikon, ex-demo stock, and had one left. I had a look - perfect condition, with a 6-month Nikon UK warranty, and at a price I couldn't resist - £1299. I've seen well-used copies go for considerably more on ebay. So I now have a Nikon D800. Job done.
Enjoy it Bill. I think you might spend quite a lot of time being amazed at what your new camera can do.
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I hope so
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The D750 will be a significant upgrade in image quality and capabilities for you. The tilting monitor is a plus.
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Ellis, I've no doubt it would, but I've now got a D800, which is also a significant upgrade on the D700
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Holy cow, now that I have a D810, all I can say is it is a whole different animal than the D800/D800e. The Expeed 4 processor, double sized buffer, omission of OLPF and electronic front curtain shutter just starts to touch on the differences that make this a major upgrade.
Here is the official Nikon Comparison (http://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/en_INC/o/57qXCcC4VtbrorNNsWOsXvKoNmM/PDF/D810-D800-D800E_Comparison_Sheet_en.pdf), but there are dozens of other small changes that make the D810 into a camera that could have been called the D900.
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Depending on what your lens investment is, another consideration might be the upcoming Sony A9 - the specs look amazing (including a spectacular image stabilization system). I actually like the 24-70 Sony Zeiss f4 on an A7r substantially better than the 24-70 f2.8 Nikkor on a D800e (never tried a D810). It's a newer system, without the lens choices of Nikon, but Sony has been very aggressive of late - I expect the ~50 MP A9 with world-class stabilization will be priced right around the D810, but haven't seen any real pricing on the (January release) Sony. If you have long Nikon AF-S VR telephotos, the Sony is probably cost-prohibitive (there's no adapter that preserves fast AF, and Sony doesn't have a good selection of long glass even if switching were affordable), but if your lens investment is more modest, I wouldn't buy anything at the top end until we see how aggressive a game Mr. Sony plays.
Dan
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...make the D810 into a camera that could have been called the D900.
Indeed, my personnal feeling remains that the D800 -> D810 upgrade is the largest change in real world experience/performance I have seen since going from D2x to D3.
Now, if nikon hadn't messed up their new body naming convention release by starting with a D610 that was basically just a bug fix of the D600, it would have been easier to consider the x10 naming scheme as having no implication on the importance of the upgrade. ;)
Makes no difference for me, but Nikon marketing is a total disaster. ;D
Cheers,
Bernard
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Makes no difference for me, but Nikon marketing is a total disaster. ;D
I wish they would drop the "enthusiast" line and make 2 body styles: Consumer and pro. I'm currently shooting the D810 and D7100 (Nikon's best DX camera which in itself is a crime) and it is annoying that they have different operating setups. Why would you want to put an artificial barrier to you enthusiasts upgrading to a more expensive camera? I actually think in naming, Canon did it right. You own a 7D and want an upgrade to that camera, you buy a 7DmkII! Brilliant!
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For anyone who has gone from the D800/800E to the D810, do you see a better focus accuracy in the auto-focus system than the prior?
Any back-focus issues?
Tia.
SG
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Bill, for what's it worth I must admit after recommending the D750 and making other statements indicating I was staying with my D800, I tossed in the towel and ordered a D810. The current instant $300 rebate at B&H took me over the edge. Too many people I interact with online and respect have made the upgrade and their comments resonated with me and certain frustrations I had with the D800. Since I primarily use the Nikon for landscape photography on a tripod and use the best lenses it just seemed the logical thing to do.
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... The current instant $300 rebate at B&H took me over the edge.
Thanks for this. I looked and Nikon sale where the price is actually dropped $300 on the D810. Since my wife bought it for me for Christmas, I contacted Amazon and they credited her account $300. SWEET!
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People don't complain down the road about buying too much quality.
Buy the D810.
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As I said a while back, I got a good deal on a D800. That'll have to do for the next few years, lottery win not withstanding
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For anyone who has gone from the D800/800E to the D810, do you see a better focus accuracy in the auto-focus system than the prior?
Any back-focus issues?
Tia.
SG
I still have my D800E and have compared it often with my newly purchased D810. Concerning the AF system, I'm not sure I would call it 'better focus accuracy'. Perhaps 'consistency' or 'dependability' says it better. Fact is, my keeper rate is definitely higher with the D810. Add to this the much improved shutter dampening (not to mention how much quieter the shutter is) and getting tack sharp hand-held shots has become a much less challenging job. Despite this, the D800E is and remains an excellent camera capable of producing stunning photographs. Nevertheless, for the kind of photography I do, I prefer the D810.
Larry
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I still have my D800E and have compared it often with my newly purchased D810. Concerning the AF system, I'm not sure I would call it 'better focus accuracy'. Perhaps 'consistency' or 'dependability' says it better. Fact is, my keeper rate is definitely higher with the D810. Add to this the much improved shutter dampening (not to mention how much quieter the shutter is) and getting tack sharp hand-held shots has become a much less challenging job. Despite this, the D800E is and remains an excellent camera capable of producing stunning photographs. Nevertheless, for the kind of photography I do, I prefer the D810.
Larry
I almost bit on the D800e and am so thankful that I waited. The D800/D800e are great cameras, but the D810, in addition to the additional and upgraded features, just does everything a little bit better such that the entire package is much more efficient and effective. I would urge anyone tempted to buy a D800/D800e on price to compare the D810. I find it easily worth the additional cost.