Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Pentax645 on October 06, 2014, 07:48:04 pm
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Came across this thread
http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=17017&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=6e23669937669296e189f160a646e27d
and discovered that C1 won't support the 645 because it ls in competition with the Phase One DB
Please if you love the Pentax 645z send a request support to
contactformular@phaseone.com
Thanks
Paul
[MODERATOR's NOTE: This post has been modified to 'correct' a corporate email address]
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C1 is a superb program, and Phase One's unique tech advantage over Pentax.
You can't really ask a turkey to welcome Christmas.
Edmund
Came across this thread
http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=17017&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=6e23669937669296e189f160a646e27d
and discovered that C1 won't support the 645 because it ls in competition with the Phase One DB
Please if you love the Pentax 645z send a request support to
contactformular@phaseone.com
Thanks
Paul
[MODERATOR's NOTE: This post has been modified to 'correct' a corporate email address]
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C1 is a superb program, and Phase One's unique tech advantage over Pentax.
You can't really ask a turkey to welcome Christmas.
On the other hand a D810/a7r is also de facto competition, yet C1 Pro supports these cameras and do so with splendid colors.
It would in fact make sense for Phaseone to support the 645Z IMHO.
Every 100+ license sold generates about as much revenue as one Phaseone back. Assuming that there will be a few tens of thousands of 645Z produced, and assuming that C1 Pro would likely be the chosen raw converter for many of those, it could generate cash corresponding to the sales of a few hundreds of backs.
Since the customers of phase one and Pentax probably have little overlap, this is mostly pure added revenue with very little downside.
Cheers,
Bernard
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On the other hand a D810/a7r is also de facto competition, yet C1 Pro supports these cameras and do so with splendid colors.
If you keep saying this, it's not gonna come true, Bernard. $400 Acer laptops are not competition to a Macbook Pro, even if they both have the same components.
There is no obligation for P1 to support anyone other than their own house brands, yet they support a ton of third parties with a software development team that probably is 1/10th the size of what Adobe has (And yet deliver better RAW processing that Lightroom has ever done for me). They are well within their rights to choose not to support other MF manufacturers.
For me, one of the key reasons I chose Leaf over Hasselblad was because I wanted to work in C1P and not Phocus. That's a smart business move by P1 in my books as if there was support for Hasselblad in C1P, I wouldn't have thought twice before giving my money to the swedes.
p.s. Anyway, there are several other alternatives to LR and C1P that deliver good results. I remember DxO being rather good. Photo Ninja seemed good too, but the user experience is rather underwhelming. Raw Therapee has the worst user experience of them all, but the file quality was top notch. All these are valid options for customers whoa re not supported by P1 and do not want to work with LR.
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Synn,
Your ability to completely miss the point of a 3 sentences long post is pretty unique. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Synn,
Your ability to completely miss the point of a 3 sentences long post is pretty unique. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
I got your point just fine. It just doesn't make sense to an actual company doing business.
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There is no obligation for P1 to support anyone other than their own house brands, yet they support a ton of third parties with a software development team that probably is 1/10th the size of what Adobe has
Adobe makes a lot more software products...
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Assuming that there will be a few tens of thousands of 645Z produced, and assuming that C1 Pro would likely be the chosen raw converter for many of those, it could generate cash corresponding to the sales of a few hundreds of backs.
so do a lot of Japanese photographers use C1 or they tend to use homemade SilkyPix ;) ?
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so do a lot of Japanese photographers use C1 or they tend to use homemade SilkyPix ;) ?
C1 Pro seems to be pretty popular in Japan among higher end shooters.
I don't see anything in Silkypix that would make it more appealing in Japan than in the rest of the world.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Interesting to hear that C1 seems to be popular within high end shooters. From all people I know, all of them use Lightroom/Photoshop.
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I don't see anything in Silkypix that would make it more appealing in Japan than in the rest of the world.
ISL is a Japanese company... so may be
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What really pisses me off is that capture one somehow cripples The 645z DNG file which is an "open format". It's despicable.
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What really pisses me off is that capture one somehow cripples The 645z DNG file which is an "open format". It's despicable.
not cripples - just not supports it (and that is propely noted by P1, that for Pentax dSLRs/dSLMs only PEF is supported, so that customers know in advance)...
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Interesting to hear that C1 seems to be popular within high end shooters. From all people I know, all of them use Lightroom/Photoshop.
In Japan?
Cheers,
Bernard
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In Japan?
Cheers,
Bernard
Everywhere I've worked including the Harakuju studios in Tokyo, I'd say lightroom is 3/4 of the photographers and image production, photoshop 100% for retouching, 100% for photographers.
Same with Paris, London, Spain, Italy, Hong Kong . . . (it's a long list).
There is some cross over to c-1 for certain cameras, but everyone I've met knows lightroom and photoshop.
In fact if you work with a retoucher, at the higher professional level, you'll find that 99% of the raw processing they do is in photoshop. Few have C-1, few use it if they do have it and fewer still upgrade their computers, software at every turn. It's expensive to move 20 seats up level at every change.
In the early stages of digital capture, expensive companies came out of the woodwork with very costly systems, running fiber optics, raid servers, dedicated IT guys. Most of those companies are gone or have pulled back and today it's a much different process.
Photographers can squeeze the last 15% out of an image with all the trick processing they know, but a retoucher is gonna put it in camera raw, or accept a tiff and go to work.
IMO
BC
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If you keep saying this, it's not gonna come true, Bernard. $400 Acer laptops are not competition to a Macbook Pro, even if they both have the same components.
There is no obligation for P1 to support anyone other than their own house brands, yet they support a ton of third parties with a software development team that probably is 1/10th the size of what Adobe has (And yet deliver better RAW processing that Lightroom has ever done for me). They are well within their rights to choose not to support other MF manufacturers.
For me, one of the key reasons I chose Leaf over Hasselblad was because I wanted to work in C1P and not Phocus. That's a smart business move by P1 in my books as if there was support for Hasselblad in C1P, I wouldn't have thought twice before giving my money to the swedes.
p.s. Anyway, there are several other alternatives to LR and C1P that deliver good results. I remember DxO being rather good. Photo Ninja seemed good too, but the user experience is rather underwhelming. Raw Therapee has the worst user experience of them all, but the file quality was top notch. All these are valid options for customers whoa re not supported by P1 and do not want to work with LR.
If you allow me...
Phocus is a free software while C1 pro goes for 300$ and it aims to a wide range of pro photographers cameras and not only Phase One DB
Today Capture One is probably one of the very best (or actually the best) pro raw converter in the market, with the ambition to compete against product such as Lightroom but this all story rise an important question:
"is it wise to commit to a pro software that won't support a camera just because of strategic marketing reason??"
Paul
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Everywhere I've worked including the Harakuju studios in Tokyo, I'd say lightroom is 3/4 of the photographers and image production, photoshop 100% for retouching, 100% for photographers.
Same with Paris, London, Spain, Italy, Hong Kong . . . (it's a long list).
There is some cross over to c-1 for certain cameras, but everyone I've met knows lightroom and photoshop.
OK, thanks for the feedback. I stand corrected.
Cheers,
Bernard
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and by the way.... Phocus supports the DNG files from the Pentax 645z....
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and by the way.... Phocus supports the DNG files from the Pentax 645z....
AFAIK not Phocus software from Hasselblad, but Apple's software (OS supports access to raw files, Phocus does postprocessing part) and can a pro trust Apple after what they did with Aperture ;D ?
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Everywhere I've worked including the Harakuju studios in Tokyo, I'd say lightroom is 3/4 of the photographers and image production, photoshop 100% for retouching, 100% for photographers.
I 'd assume Ricoh/Pentax 645* in Japan are more presented among enthusiasts, so to extrapolate what you see among your kind of folks over to them is not entirely correct.
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not cripples - just not supports it (and that is propely noted by P1, that for Pentax dSLRs/dSLMs only PEF is supported, so that customers know in advance)...
C1 opens it but it is all screwed up with noise and artifacts. I would wager that they cripple it on purpose.
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C1 opens it but it is all screwed up with noise and artifacts. I would wager that they cripple it on purpose.
I tried to convert PEF from 645z to DNG using Adobe DNG converter, C1 v8 opens that non original DNG with normal colors (no strange noise or artefacts that I can see) using relevant some generic "DNG profile" for Ricoh/Pentax... now w/ native DNG from camera your mileage might be different, I didn't try it.
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C1 opens it but it is all screwed up with noise and artifacts. I would wager that they cripple it on purpose.
C1 support the Pef from Pentax K3 but you can also open the DNG from the same camera!!
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I 'd assume Ricoh/Pentax 645* in Japan are more presented among enthusiasts, so to extrapolate what you see among your kind of folks over to them is not entirely correct.
Your right I know very little of the advanced amateur and personal artist world.
We did use some gardens for locations in and around Tokyo and Osaka and I was fascinated to see middle age and up photographers with mostly older mamiya 645 film cameras and a few Bronicas, Pentax (all 645) and all shooting film, though shooting film at the rate of about 3 frames every two hours.
I bet their work was pretty because they spent a lot of time on it and they seemed to have laser like concentration on what they were doing.
Fascinating.
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The one difference I noticed with Japanese clients (well there are a lot of differences) but the one that always surprised me was that they wanted everything delivered on physical media. For nearly a decade we've done this online and through ftp so burning discs, cds, making guide prints was a step back in time.
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C-1 also screws up Leica dngs, though I kind of expected that.
I guess I try to think how I'd feel. I wouldn't offer my facilities and equipment to a photographer that was competing with me, especially at half price.
Even if I wasn't up for the gig, why help to lower the bar and spending a lifetime of investing?
C-1 is the best tethering software and does a great job of processing. I'm sure there fine selling it to 35mm camera owners, because those owners become familiar with c-1 and when/if they step up to larger formats, they have familiarity with the software. Though they draw the line on any larger format competitors.
I can understand that rational.
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But if your really concerned about image quality and look, try Iridient Developer. It's not the most modern interface, though it's also not that complicated and you can really fine tune a custom setting for your files.
They also update for free newer cameras and formats quickly.
So there is options.
IMO
BC
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I remember Michael Reichmann praising Phase One CEO for having a open platform for their camera system
I wonder what he would think about all that if he would know (he also own a Pentax 645z :D)
P
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Anyway, turkeys may not vote for Xmas, but Xmas will come eventually.
I'm sure the Pentax is doing wonders for Phase sales.
Edmund
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Pentax couldn't do wonders for even their own sales, which is why they are now proudly a Rikoh company.
I like how people on this forum make proud sales predictions without even seeing a balance sheet.
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AFAIK not Phocus software from Hasselblad, but Apple's software (OS supports access to raw files, Phocus does postprocessing part) and can a pro trust Apple after what they did with Aperture ;D ?
so you mean that ....C1 is actually working hard not to support DNG from 645z...?
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I tried to convert PEF from 645z to DNG using Adobe DNG converter, C1 v8 opens that non original DNG with normal colors (no strange noise or artefacts that I can see) using relevant some generic "DNG profile" for Ricoh/Pentax... now w/ native DNG from camera your mileage might be different, I didn't try it.
It was the native DNG format that had the issues. Camera Raw looked awesome straight in.
You have to wonder
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Pentax couldn't do wonders for even their own sales, which is why they are now proudly a Rikoh company.
I like how people on this forum make proud sales predictions without even seeing a balance sheet.
You know full well that the acquisition of Pentax assets by Ricoh and the sales numbers of the 645Z bear very little relationship, if any, right?
Phaseone has been acquired as well, Leaf before that, what does that tell us about the sales figures of those backs? Well... nothing.
Cheers,
Bernard
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For such a short thread this one is loaded with a truck load of non-supportable assumptions and presumptions.
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Do Canon users expect Capture NX2 (Which is a paid software) to support CR2 files? Or Nikon users, NEF support in DPP?
Phase is doing the same thing as Apple. Using Software as a means to get people to commit to their hardware platform.
And Bernard, Phase; acquisition or not, has seen profits rise for many years. When was the last time a Pentax balance sheet was not in red? Their camera sales isn't even reported under Ricoh's reports anymore.
But this is all off topic and I am not getting into another one of THOSE discussions again.
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Do Canon users expect Capture NX2 (Which is a paid software) to support CR2 files? Or Nikon users, NEF support in DPP?
Phase is doing the same thing as Apple. Using Software as a means to get people to commit to their hardware platform.
I am sorry but thats in incorrect:
Dpp and Capture NX are meant for their own camera brand
C1 supports all advance camera out there and it supports support Adobe DNG
you pay 300$ for that and today C1 is in direct competition with Lightroom!
Filtering off the Pentax 645 DNG is not a matter of supporting or not a certain model....
Paul
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I think one can find a better windmill to tilt at.
Edmund
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so you mean that ....C1 is actually working hard not to support DNG from 645z...?
they simply do not support this camera, that's it, it is their business decision...
there are workarounds, did you ever try them ? keep original raw files (.PEF or .DNG) archived, convert them (using Adobe DNG converter) to DNG for workflow purposes, create (or find) your own camera profiles to be used... if the workarounds too hard for you then vote w/ your $$$ - do not buy C1...
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they simply do not support this camera, that's it, it is their business decision...
there are workarounds, did you ever try them ? keep original raw files (.PEF or .DNG) archived, convert them (using Adobe DNG converter) to DNG for workflow purposes, create (or find) your own camera profiles to be used... if the workarounds too hard for you then vote w/ your $$$ - do not buy C1...
Sai you mean that after spending 4 years working with C1 and investing in 3 upgrades... i should accept such an unprofessional attitude?
I am sorry this is not fair
If they want to compete vs Adobe Lightroom they have to behave professionally
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Sai you mean that after spending 4 years working with C1 and investing in 3 upgrades... i should accept such an unprofessional attitude?
you spent 4 years working with C1 and as a professional being fully aware that P1 does not support Pentax 645* dSLR cameras in C1 = yet you decide to buy Pentax 645z with that knowledge... it is/was your call, P1 did not make any changes on their side, did not make any false promises...
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you spent 4 years working with C1 and as a professional being fully aware that P1 does not support Pentax 645* dSLR cameras in C1 = yet you decide to buy Pentax 645z with that knowledge... it is/was your call, P1 did not make any changes on their side, did not make any false promises...
CO 7 could read 645D DNG from the camera.... no problem, so why should be different with 645z ?
You don't get my point... its not about supporting it..its about filtering off the the camera DNG!!
I am sorry this is Unacceptable
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CO 7 could read 645D DNG from the camera.... no problem, so why should be different with 645z ?
use Adobe DNG converter and you will be in the same situation as with CO7
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I remember Michael Reichmann praising Phase One CEO for having a open platform for their camera system
I wonder what he would think about all that if he would know (he also own a Pentax 645z :D)
P
I wrote to him urging his support and I know he wrote to PO
Hope for the best
E