Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: torger on October 04, 2014, 11:26:52 am
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I've just become aware of that the Hasselblad CFV-50c is sold at a considerably lower price in Japan, 1,077,840 yen, about $9.9k, which is considerably less than the ~$15k it costs in the US and EU. The still have a few of the CCD CFV-50 left, and those are sold at ~$14k, ie the "old" price.
http://www.ginichi.com/products/detail.php?_product_id=14679
At $10k the price almost starts to become reasonable. I think it should be around $7-8k considering the Pentax 645z, but $10k is not too bad, and compared to traditional digital back prices it's of course fantastic value.
Anyone that has an idea why Hasselblad has a lower price of this back in Japan? Is there a larger amateur V system market there? Why don't they sell it for the same lower price in US and EU?
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We're slowly but relentlessly getting to the point when getting into DMF won't be an issue of bankruptcy or divorce.
Hopefully it will happen before I have to retire for advanced age or natural death. :D
Eduardo
I've just become aware of that the Hasselblad CFV-50c is sold at a considerably lower price in Japan, 1,077,840 yen, about $9.9k, which is considerably less than the ~$15k it costs in the US and EU. The still have a few of the CCD CFV-50 left, and those are sold at ~$14k, ie the "old" price.
http://www.ginichi.com/products/detail.php?_product_id=14679
At $10k the price almost starts to become reasonable. I think it should be around $7-8k considering the Pentax 645z, but $10k is not too bad, and compared to traditional digital back prices it's of course fantastic value.
Anyone that has an idea why Hasselblad has a lower price of this back in Japan? Is there a larger amateur V system market there? Why don't they sell it for the same lower price in US and EU?
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It must be the first times a back has a list price lower in Japan than in other markets.
It is especially surprising considering the weak Yen relative to the Euro. That is around 7,000 Euros.
Phaseone typically applies a 15-20% markup in Japan with the IQ280 retailing, for example, at around 58,000 US$ list price in classic package. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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At $10k the price almost starts to become reasonable.
It also nicely illustrates how ridiculously inflated the price of $27,500K (new model with WiFi $28,500) for the H5D-50c really is...
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It also nicely illustrates how ridiculously inflated the price of $27,500K (new model with WiFi $28,500) for the H5D-50c really is...
Well, we already knew from the 645Z pricing that the cost of the sensor did clearly not come close to justify the pricing of the backs using the Sony part.
It will be interesting to see whether Hassy intends to justify the price difference between the H5F-50c and the CFV-50c by not upgrading the CFV-50c with wifi and live view? ;)
That would be a pity, because at 10,000 US$ with live view, this back could get a lot of the Hassy legacy owners doing landscape interested IMHO.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Well, we already knew from the 645Z pricing that the cost of the sensor did clearly not come close to justify the pricing of the backs using the Sony part.
I wasn't even thinking of that...
It was more like: back + body = $10K + $8K < $27K
Am I missing something? IMO the pricing of the H5D-50c is really a missed opportunity.
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I wasn't even thinking of that...
It was more like: back + body = $10K + $8K < $27K
Am I missing something? IMO the pricing of the H5D-50c is really a missed opportunity.
Exactly.
I would sell the body / back at a good price to get people into the system. Cameras need lenses to work properly and backs don't work without cameras (well you can use them for image playback). ;) ;D
Same with the IQ150. Sell it at 10-$15k max, Mamiya mount and get people hooked on the system.
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The reason Hasselblad can price the CFV-50c much much lower than the H5D-50c is that it's V-mount, and you can't change mount. The V system is dead among professional photographers -- they wouldn't get the old-school manual V system even if it was for free, but I guess it's quite popular among amateurs and for personal/artistic work. The CFV-50c is getting live view, already demonstrated at Photokina so they're not cutting down those features.
The older CCD CFV-50 was also priced much lower than the H5D-50, so that is not new. What's new is the considerably lower price in the Japanese market.
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I think the pricing of the pro MF systems (Hasselblad H and Phase One M) is set a bit after how large market they think there is, ie they could not sell more even if the price was lower. These are not all-around cameras. Compared to a journalist DSLR they're pretty much worse at everything except image quality at base ISO and tethering, so it's primarily been a studio workhorse. I know some disagree, but I think reliability has been a problem too, if you're going to sell in volume you can't have a camera that "needs a good dealer", it must be feasible to sell through any web shop, and the support only need to consist of that if it breaks you can send it in and get it repaired in reasonable time. Today it seems like you need a good dealer as a buffer and negotiation layer towards the manufacturer, can't have it like that.
Now with CMOS it's starting to become all-around though, maybe you don't really need a dealer to explain to you how the camera works, which could open up for broader uses. I think Hasselblad is in a better position for volumes sales than Phase One, both through their better body and it also seems like they're using more of standard sales channels already.
But anyway, even if the camera is made cheap the lenses are very costly. Most are considerably more expensive than a Zeiss Otus lens. With volume I guess those prices could be somewhat lowered too though.
The V back is different. This is being sold not to newcomers to MF but to users that already have a V system sitting on the shelf.
There's the opportunity to sell to tech users too, and I think that is quite a big opportunity. Unfortunately this is a bit crippled by the poor wide angle compatibility, hopefully a new generation of MF CMOS sensors will fix that. Still you can use it with Rodie wides with a limited image circle and that's good enough for some, and indeed some already use IQ250 for tech cams.
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The CFV–50c does have live view, implemented via firmware update. But no Wi-fi.
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Hi,
My guess is that MFD vendors are more comfortable selling high price low volume than selling medium price medium volume. Increasing sales means expanding production, so there is an associated costs while earnings would be the same.
Regarding technical cam compability, I got the impression that technical cams are a small but increasing part of the MFD market. The arrival of CMOS sensors may be helpful, because they have live view which solves many issues with technical cameras (IMHO). The new sensors don't work well large beam tilts, as you have shown. I guess that lens designs will adopt. It may be that sensor designs will adopt, too. Leica has developed an MFD version of it's CMOSIS designed sensor, and I think it has a much shallower well design than the Sony CMOS sensor. They perhaps put it into a Sinar back? (Leica owns Sinar)
Leica seems to be a medium price, medium volume seller in the MFD industry it seems. It may be Sinar/Leica that comes out with the first affordable back?
Best regards
Erik
I think the pricing of the pro MF systems (Hasselblad H and Phase One M) is set a bit after how large market they think there is, ie they could not sell more even if the price was lower. These are not all-around cameras. Compared to a journalist DSLR they're pretty much worse at everything except image quality at base ISO and tethering, so it's primarily been a studio workhorse. I know some disagree, but I think reliability has been a problem too, if you're going to sell in volume you can't have a camera that "needs a good dealer", it must be feasible to sell through any web shop, and the support only need to consist of that if it breaks you can send it in and get it repaired in reasonable time. Today it seems like you need a good dealer as a buffer and negotiation layer towards the manufacturer, can't have it like that.
Now with CMOS it's starting to become all-around though, maybe you don't really need a dealer to explain to you how the camera works, which could open up for broader uses. I think Hasselblad is in a better position for volumes sales than Phase One, both through their better body and it also seems like they're using more of standard sales channels already.
But anyway, even if the camera is made cheap the lenses are very costly. Most are considerably more expensive than a Zeiss Otus lens. With volume I guess those prices could be somewhat lowered too though.
The V back is different. This is being sold not to newcomers to MF but to users that already have a V system sitting on the shelf.
There's the opportunity to sell to tech users too, and I think that is quite a big opportunity. Unfortunately this is a bit crippled by the poor wide angle compatibility, hopefully a new generation of MF CMOS sensors will fix that. Still you can use it with Rodie wides with a limited image circle and that's good enough for some, and indeed some already use IQ250 for tech cams.
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Interesting, can the CFV-50c be used on a tech camera?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Interesting, can the CFV-50c be used on a tech camera?
Yes it can.
The Sony CMOS sensor has limited compatibility with technical wide angles though (crosstalk), so it's not great for landscape and architecture. However, using the Rodenstock Digaron lens lines, shifting a bit less and having a bit relaxed view on color fidelity when you shift it can still be used also with wides. I'm myself a Schneider Digitar user (symmetrical rather than retrofocus lenses) like to be able to shift a lot and think color fidelity is more important than sharpness so for me it's not an option, but I think it can be for some others. There of course also tech users that don't shoot wide angle, such as product and food photography, art reproduction etc and then it will work nicely.
To be a big potential for a broader amateur market I think the back needs to be strong with wide angles and also support the substantially cheaper Schneider Digitar range, but for that new sensor type is required. But maybe you can make a few sales in the product/food/reproduction genre with this.
Hasselblad has been totally useless in promoting their products for tech camera use though, which I think is a mistake. They've left it wide-open for Phase One to dominate. The 50 megapixel CCD has actually excellent wide angle comptability, much better than the Dalsas used in Phase One backs, making the old CCD version CFV-50 a great tech cam option for the Schneider Digitar range, but they totally missed that opportunity.
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Yes it can.
The Sony CMOS sensor has limited compatibility with technical wide angles though (crosstalk), so it's not great for landscape and architecture. However, using the Rodenstock Digaron lens lines, shifting a bit less and having a bit relaxed view on color fidelity when you shift it can still be used also with wides. I'm myself a Schneider Digitar user (symmetrical rather than retrofocus lenses) like to be able to shift a lot and think color fidelity is more important than sharpness so for me it's not an option, but I think it can be for some others. There of course also tech users that don't shoot wide angle, such as product and food photography, art reproduction etc and then it will work nicely.
To be a big potential for a broader amateur market I think the back needs to be strong with wide angles and also support the substantially cheaper Schneider Digitar range, but for that new sensor type is required. But maybe you can make a few sales in the product/food/reproduction genre with this.
Hasselblad has been totally useless in promoting their products for tech camera use though, which I think is a mistake. They've left it wide-open for Phase One to dominate. The 50 megapixel CCD has actually excellent wide angle comptability, much better than the Dalsas used in Phase One backs, making the old CCD version CFV-50 a great tech cam option for the Schneider Digitar range, but they totally missed that opportunity.
Thanks! This is becoming interesting.
Cheers,
Bernard
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i´m also very interested in the new cfv-50c in combination with a arca rm3di or alpa system.
if someone have more information on this topic, please share it with me/us.
i will use it for landscpe photography (normally i will shot with a 35mm, 50mm lens, calculated for a fullframe dslr ; 5dIII)
best michael
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As the IQ250, IQ150 and Credo 50 also have the same sensor you can look for tests made for them. Over at getdpi you have the following interesting threads:
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/51985-leaf-credo-50-review-guy-mancuso.html (contains real-world examples of shifted Digaron-W 40mm)
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/52000-lcc-23hr-35hr-40hr-iq250.html
The problem is that this sensor is not designed to deal with the very low angles technical wide angles deliver the light to the sensor. This means that you get leaks between the color channels (crosstalk) which means that you get a color error in the form of desaturation in mild cases.
However, if you're not into "art reproduction" color fidelity you can accept some crosstalk, and then you can shift the Digaron-S 35mm about 12mm. If your 35mm is a Schneider Digitar 35mm which is a symmetric design, it will work fine dead on but you cannot shift it at all. Digaron-W 40mm will do about 15mm shift of okay color fidelity.
35mm 135 lens would mean ~43mm for the 44x33mm sensor. Probably the Digaron-W 40mm is a bit nicer to the sensor than the Schneider Digitar 43mm. If you're not going wider than that, you think 12-15mm shift is enough and you can accept some color fidelity loss in those shifted areas (mostly not detectable in real-world images, see Guy Manusco's Credo 50 test above) it will work for you.
One thing with the CFV-50c which is not known yet is the quality of the live view. Almost certainly it will be a bit sub-standard (it was when beta was shown at Photokina), slow auto-exposure, slow update rate, not at all as a modern small format camera or the other brands using the same CMOS sensor. The reason seems to be that the digital back platform Hasselblad has is aging and cannot really handle realtime video that well. However, say if it's 10 fps without lag and a good 100% zoom it will still work well for focusing even if not "state-of-the-art" performance. I would not buy in the blind though, at least not without seeing a video and hearing a review of how the live view works for focusing.
Of course, with the RM3Di you have high precision focusing ring and you're less dependent on live view focusing (just use laser distance meter and dial in your focusing distance), if it's good enough for framing/composition I guess it's good enough for you. There are merits with high precision focusing rings even with live view, but much less so than before. Therefore I would suggest that you also consider view camera alternatives such as Arca-Swiss MF-two or the new F-Universalis or Linhof Techno, or look into Cambo Actus. An advantage with a view camera is that the lens mount cost is much lower, and when you can focus with live view you don't need to agonize over the ground glass. You also get more flexible movements (typically).
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many thanks for your great help
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Are there full size CFV-50c samples captured at various ISO available online somewhere?
This back really has gotten me interested.
Thank you.
Cheers,
Bernard
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This dude on flickr is using one.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/125930877@N07 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125930877@N07)
Thanks, ok images but nothing too impressive to be honnest. Rendering is clean but nothing my current equipment doesn't do just as well.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I thought it odd you wanted some information on another Sony Sensor when you already have one.
I think that there is a lot more to the rendering delivered by a camera+lens than the name of the company manufacturing the sensor base.
My interest in the CFV-50c remains, I just don't see anything special in those Flickr samples. Them being not available as full size images may be part of it.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I think that there is a lot more to the rendering delivered by a camera+lens than the name of the company manufacturing the sensor base.
My interest in the CFV-50c remains, I just don't see anything special in those Flickr samples. Them being not available as full size images may be part of it.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard,
The difference between the old and new tech is that the modern tech is much more digital - there is less space for secret sauce.
Not none, just considerably less.
Edmund
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Hi Bernard,
I don't know about those images, but I have some observations after shooting my 555ELD for 15 months (or so).
1) The pixels are no sharper but there are more of them. Upres to a common resolution, sharpen properly and compare the images. You may or may not see an advantage.
2) Manually focusing the Hasselblad is hard
3) The lenses are sharp in the middle, but the corners may be different. If you check the MTF-curves, the Sonnars are great and so is the Macro Planar 100/3.5 and the 40/4 IF (latest version, hard to find). The curves seem to indicate a lot field curvature and some astigmatism. You find all MTF curves here: http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/HW/HWLds.aspx
My experience is that I am warming up the stuff. Using the equipment for 15 months I get better images. My comparison is a Sony A99 with 24 MP and OLP filter. You are comparing with a 36 MP camera without an OLP filter and some of the best lenses ever made for 135 format.
Best regards
Erik
Thanks, ok images but nothing too impressive to be honnest. Rendering is clean but nothing my current equipment doesn't do just as well.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard, if I was seriously considering spending that kind of money I wouldn't be relying on undersized 3rd party jpegs or for that matter full size 3rd party Raws.
I would have thought a demo, loan or rental in Tokyo would be easy enough to arrange.
Yes, I will of course do that if I am convinced of the potential. Righ now I am in the stage before that.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Yes, I will of course do that if I am convinced of the potential. Right now I am in the stage before that.
Cheers,
Bernard
The Hasselblad V system is really obviously not a good choice if you want to get the most resolution out of a digital back (the 50MP Sony CMOS sensor included). The V lenses have a nice look to them and you will get that obviously (+ the large files, DR and Color) but the system as a whole is obviously not suitable to achieve the most out of those lenses on a consistent basis (with digital). So if you care about that (some don't and really just like working with the system and like the look of the images) then look elsewhere, even at $10k (a good deal) it is not the right choice. Like you said, better served by a D810 / A7R or a 645z (maybe, because the choice of lenses for the Nikon and Sony is much more extensive).
To get the best out of any sensor you need awesome lenses and right now to get great glass combined with the new Sony 50MP CMOS medium format sensor you basically need a PhaseOne IQ150/250 (or a Credo 50) or a Hasselblad H5D-50C.
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Ken,
You are probably right, now the CFV-50c can be used on a tech camera too and has live view. So my thinking is that it could be a "cheap" way to get the best MF sensor tech with the look of the V lenses on some subjects where resolution isn't that critical, such as portrait, while also getting access to the best Roddy lenses on a light Cambo for very high end spherical stitching...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Ken,
You are probably right, now the CFV-50c can be used on a tech camera too and has live view. So my thinking is that it could be a "cheap" way to get the best MF sensor tech with the look of the V lenses on some subjects where resolution isn't that critical, such as portrait, while also getting access to the best Roddy lenses on a light Cambo for very high end spherical stitching...
Cheers,
Bernard
Oh yeah. I was talking SLR lenses. Tech lenses are another story. The 50mp CMOS sensor does not play well with wide angle tech lenses with lot's of movement but straight on from say 40mm (Rodenstock HR-W) up they should work well with even a little movement. Check out the digital transitions website. They tested a bunch of combinations with the new CMOS back.
For work on a tripod with live view then that back might be an alternative if it works with tech camera setups and if live view works untethered and the lcd screen is acceptable.
If you dont intend on doing very long exposure or high iso work I would check out the Leaf Credo 40. They can be had at low prices used and it is a superb back. Works amazingly well with tech cameras. The lcd screen is superb. I love the way the Dalsa sensors handle the highlights. They have a very very nice look to them. With tech lenses per pixel sharpness is awesome and allow lots of movement (even with the IQ160 I have). The Credo and IQ backs are really nice to work with. Yes, the live view in them is pretty crude but it's usable in a lot of cases and the high quality lcd screen makes checking image sharpness untethered really easy. I would at least check it out.
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Most of the lenses for the V are really quite old designs now. Some of these old lenses have a very nice rendering to them however - great for people shooting, not great for people who want the last detail. $10k seems like a great deal. Why is it so much cheaper there?
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Most of the lenses for the V are really quite old designs now. Some of these old lenses have a very nice rendering to them however - great for people shooting, not great for people who want the last detail. $10k seems like a great deal. Why is it so much cheaper there?
No idea why it's cheaper in Japan. But photographer's population is older here, the V system has a mythical status and 1 million yen is an amount many of those photographers can easily afford and would probably be willing to spend. 1.5 million is just too much for a camera.
My guess is that the mgt of Hassy Japan identified this market potential and managed to convince Sweden that it would be good business?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi,
I would say that some of the lenses are very good, the ones I would mention are:
- Both Sonnars 150/4 and 180/4 (i have used both)
- The Planar 100/3.5 (is said to be legendary)
- The Distagon 40/4 IF
- The Tele Superachromat T* 2.8/300
This evaluation is based on MTF curves, available here: http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/
The ones I own are 40/4, 50/4, 80/2.8, 120/4 and the 180/4, I have made good images with all of them. Manual focusing is not easy, and some sharpness is lost at f/11, but my give results across the frame.
So compared to high end DSLRs, I don't know.
Best regards
Erik
The Hasselblad V system is really obviously not a good choice if you want to get the most resolution out of a digital back (the 50MP Sony CMOS sensor included). The V lenses have a nice look to them and you will get that obviously (+ the large files, DR and Color) but the system as a whole is obviously not suitable to achieve the most out of those lenses on a consistent basis (with digital). So if you care about that (some don't and really just like working with the system and like the look of the images) then look elsewhere, even at $10k (a good deal) it is not the right choice. Like you said, better served by a D810 / A7R or a 645z (maybe, because the choice of lenses for the Nikon and Sony is much more extensive).
To get the best out of any sensor you need awesome lenses and right now to get great glass combined with the new Sony 50MP CMOS medium format sensor you basically need a PhaseOne IQ150/250 (or a Credo 50) or a Hasselblad H5D-50C.
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A Credo 40 second hand seems to be about $10-12k or so, ie about the same as a CFV-50c new. Remarkable value.
Despite the tech wide angle issues with the Sony CMOS the real-world results was better than I expected, I recommend looking at Guy's Credo 50 test (same sensor).
The only real-world test I had seen before Guy's test was Digital Transitions' IQ250 test. The problem with that test however is that they over-shift the sensor which causes sudden breakdown and make it look worse than it is. The thing is that just like the 135-format Sony sensors the MF sensor has offset microlenses. This means that if you shift over a certain limit the offset microlenses becomes contra-productive and introduce more crosstalk rather than reduce it. The DT stitched example images contains some sections where the sensor has been over-shifted and thus it looks worse than if the same segment had been shot with the sensor less shifted.
Guy's test show that even with quite large amount of crosstalk the real-world result is good. On the HR-40 12-15mm shift can be had. Extrapolating from LCC shots I've seen the HR-35 seems to take about 12mm shift and the HR-23 7-8mm with good real-world results. I'm sure the good real-world results can be had thanks to the extreme DR and good color separation in the center which means that you can have quite some degradation of it before it becomes obvious.
I think the performance with wide angles is good enough for some to choose that as a tech cam back, even when working with wides, and then the CFV-50c has an almost revolutionary good value. I'm not sure how well Phocus LCC algorithm is at handling crosstalk artifacts though, I know Capture One is pretty good. If you don't have an algorithm that is robust against crosstalk you get demosaicing failures at quite low levels of crosstalk, which can be seen in for example RawTherapee if you use the Amaze or even worse the DCB demosaicer (use VNG4 to suppress the artifacts). How good Phocus is matters too of course of how usable it will be with tech wides.
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Being the owner of a Credo 40, I would take that over a CFv-50c any day. Apart from high ISOs, I don't see a single area where the CFV is better than the Credo 40.
Incidentally, it is also 12K BRAND NEW, not used: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/871231-REG/Mamiya_010_13008a_Leaf_Credo_40MP_Digital.html
Anyway, I found some samples for the Hassy back. Bernard might be interested: http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/newproduct/20141003_669691.html
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Being the owner of a Credo 40, I would take that over a CFv-50c any day. Apart from high ISOs, I don't see a single area where the CFV is better than the Credo 40.
Incidentally, it is also 12K BRAND NEW, not used: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/871231-REG/Mamiya_010_13008a_Leaf_Credo_40MP_Digital.html
Anyway, I found some samples for the Hassy back. Bernard might be interested: http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/newproduct/20141003_669691.html
Thanks for the link.
As far as the comparison with the Credo 40, what makes you say so if I may ask?
To my eyes it is pretty much the opposite. I don't see many reasons to pick the Leaf:
- same sensor size,
- usable live view on the Hassy,
- higher DR CMOS on the Hassy,
- 25% higher res on the Hassy,
- better high ISO on the Hassy.
The only two plus in favour of the Leaf that I can think of are the support in C1 Pro and the behaviour on tech cameras when heavily shifted on some lenses but then again Torger has just shown us that it isn't that bad with the Sony sensor. What I am missing?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard,
Have you seen the samples Guy Mancuso posted from the Leaf Credo 50? Same sensor the Hasselblad uses and Guy also posted raws, what a nice guy!
Best regards
Erik
Thanks for the link.
As far as the comparison with the Credo 40, what makes you say so if I may ask?
To my eyes it is pretty much the opposite. I don't see many reasons to pick the Leaf:
- same sensor size,
- usable live view on the Hassy,
- higher DR CMOS on the Hassy,
- 25% higher res on the Hassy,
- better high ISO on the Hassy.
The only two plus in favour of the Leaf that I can think of are the support in C1 Pro and the behaviour on tech cameras when heavily shifted on some lenses but then again Torger has just shown us that it isn't that bad with the Sony sensor. What I am missing?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Thanks for the link.
As far as the comparison with the Credo 40, what makes you say so if I may ask?
To my eyes it is pretty much the opposite. I don't see many reasons to pick the Leaf:
- same sensor size,
- usable live view on the Hassy,
- higher DR CMOS on the Hassy,
- 25% higher res on the Hassy,
- better high ISO on the Hassy.
The only two plus in favour of the Leaf that I can think of are the support in C1 Pro and the behaviour on tech cameras when heavily shifted on some lenses but then again Torger has just shown us that it isn't that bad with the Sony sensor. What I am missing?
Cheers,
Bernard
I could think of several reasons why I rank the Credo higher, actually.
In the short term:
- Ability to use the back on a modern (By MF standards) Autofocus platform with modern lenses and also tech cameras. Older Mamiya lenses are also cheaper than equivalent Hassy V lenses.
- A display that's actually useful in the field along with other niceties such as electronic spirit level and a much nicer UI.
- The ability to tether via USB and not antiquated Firewire, which means tablets such as the Surface Pro can be used on location
- A sensor that's kinder to large format lenses when movement is involved
In the long term:
- The possibility to do a mount swap in case you're switching platforms
- Better upgrade and sidegrade opportunities
Subjective:
- Better color rendition and highlight behavior
- Better long term prospects of the manufacturer
- The resolution advantage isn't significant enough to make a huge difference, not is the on-paper dynamic range. (Shadow recovery is indeed a plus for the CMOS back though.)
- Do not have to touch Phocus ;)
Now, if the CMOS sensor was larger than 44x33, I'd see a case for the Hassy. As it stands, I don't see it. If one puts high ISO and very long exposures on top of the wishlist, above everything else, they are better off with a 35mm kit, IMO.
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I could think of several reasons why I rank the Credo higher, actually.
In the short term:
- Ability to use the back on a modern (By MF standards) Autofocus platform with modern lenses and also tech cameras. Older Mamiya lenses are also cheaper than equivalent Hassy V lenses.
- A display that's actually useful in the field along with other niceties such as electronic spirit level and a much nicer UI.
- The ability to tether via USB and not antiquated Firewire, which means tablets such as the Surface Pro can be used on location
- A sensor that's kinder to large format lenses when movement is involved
In the long term:
- The possibility to do a mount swap in case you're switching platforms
- Better upgrade and sidegrade opportunities
Subjective:
- Better color rendition and highlight behavior
- Better long term prospects of the manufacturer
- The resolution advantage isn't significant enough to make a huge difference, not is the on-paper dynamic range. (Shadow recovery is indeed a plus for the CMOS back though.)
- Do not have to touch Phocus ;)
Now, if the CMOS sensor was larger than 44x33, I'd see a case for the Hassy. As it stands, I don't see it. If one puts high ISO and very long exposures on top of the wishlist, above everything else, they are better off with a 35mm kit, IMO.
All good points, but the colour rendition. I am not sure how you can write that having never used the CFV-50c, especially a few days after you described the new Sony based Leaf colours as excellent. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Sure, I haven't, but I've played around with the files from the IQ 250 enough to get a feel of what the sensor is capable of. Now Hasselblad might very well add some "Secret sauce" to make it better, but so far, all the Sony sensor equipped cameras (IQ 250, H5D 50c, 645Z) except the Credo 50 display very similar color output; at least to my eye.
Corollary to the above, the Credo 50 indeed looks to be the exception to the rule and also, let's not discount Frank Doorhof's post processing skills. So yeah, if they offer the Credo 50 at 10K, my answer will change. But that's not gonna happen now, is it? ;)
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Sure, I haven't, but I've played around with the files from the IQ 250 enough to get a feel of what the sensor is capable of. Now Hasselblad might very well add some "Secret sauce" to make it better, but so far, all the Sony sensor equipped cameras (IQ 250, H5D 50c, 645Z) except the Credo 50 display very similar color output; at least to my eye.
Corollary to the above, the Credo 50 indeed looks to be the exception to the rule and also, let's not discount Frank Doorhof's post processing skills. So yeah, if they offer the Credo 50 at 10K, my answer will change. But that's not gonna happen now, is it? ;)
OK, so I guess that the main problem with the colours of the CFV-50c is that the box doesn't carry a Leaf logo. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Read it any way as you will.
I got myself something with a Leaf logo because I liked what it delivered, not the other way around. I don't expect you to agree with my inferences or opinions, but I do expect you to be a bit less snarky about it.
Cheers.
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Read it any way as you will.
I got myself something with a Leaf logo because I liked what it delivered, not the other way around. I don't expect you to agree with my inferences or opinions, but I do expect you to be a bit less snarky about it.
I appreciate your feedback.
No negative comments about Leaf from me, I have never used one and have all the reasons in the world to think they are excellent.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Wow, $12k new for a Credo 40, then I guess it will be hard to sell $12k second hand these days. I was checking a second hand sale from earlier this year.
Anyways, we haven't seen the usability of the Hassy CFV-50c screen and live view yet, I don't think it's that bad, it's just not as good as it should be. That doesn't make it unusable though. Working with less-than-top-notch technical features is what any MF user should be used to anyway ;). I don't even have live view, I use ground glass successfully and it ain't particularly good but good enough if you have reasonably fresh eyes and some training.
As a tech cam alternative I think the old Hassy CFV-50 is great, with its Kodak CCD (which actually has proper shielding between pixels unlike the Dalsa, which while a lot better than the Sony CMOS still isn't near to the Kodak) even the SK28 is usable to it's edge and the 49x37mm sensor size is very well balanced for the lens range. I'd personally pick that rather than a Credo 40, although the Credo has a bit lower noise. I don't think Bernard would be pleased with it though, if you've got used to the low noise Sony CMOS and make use of it in your shooting style going back to a in comparison noisy CCD is going to be a bit of a shock.
You don't have to work with Phocus, you can use Lightroom or like myself RawTherapee :). Portrait photographers tend to want to use the native software as there usually is more skin-tone magic there, but if you work with landscape that's less of an issue. I use a custom color profile myself with my Leaf as I don't like the Leaf originals for landscape (except perhaps the ProPhoto profile but that's looking exactly like matrix-only) and I'm quite sure it would be the same with Hasselblad.
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There's nothing noisy about a Credo file unless you shoot in ISOs >100. Even the shadows are decently pushable, but don't expect 4+ stops of pushing, like with the Sony files.
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There's nothing noisy about a Credo file unless you shoot in ISOs >100. Even the shadows are decently pushable, but don't expect 4+ stops of pushing, like with the Sony files.
Sorry I wasn't too clear in my post, the noise was primarily referring to the Kodak, ie the older CFV-50. The Credo 40 is less noisy. The CFV-50 is low noise enough for me which is used to make pictures with both Canon (which of course is less good than the CFV-50) and older generation digital backs, but if you've shot with a D800 and similar cameras for a few years I guess it can be hard to go back. The CMOS CFV-50c will surely please in that regard if they haven't totally messed up in the implementation.
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Bernard,
Have you seen the samples Guy Mancuso posted from the Leaf Credo 50? Same sensor the Hasselblad uses and Guy also posted raws, what a nice guy!
Best regards
Erik
Guy is not only nice, when it comes to photographing *things* he is very competent.
Edmund
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Hi,
Guy Mancuso posted raw images from his Credo 50, no portaits unfortunately.
He posted portraits, but not as raw, unfortunately.
The stuff that Guy posted was definitevly good, in my eyes.
Best regards
Erik
Corollary to the above, the Credo 50 indeed looks to be the exception to the rule and also, let's not discount Frank Doorhof's post processing skills. So yeah, if they offer the Credo 50 at 10K, my answer will change. But that's not gonna happen now, is it? ;)
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Thanks for the input.
Indeed, getting less DR than with my D810 wouldn't make that much sense.
Large movement isn't super critical, I can use the Betterlight if really required. The main value of using tech camera lenses would be image quality but I wonder if the investment would really be worth it considering the level of quality today with the Otus combo.
Hum... tough choices. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Indeed, getting less DR than with my D810 wouldn't make that much sense.
Large movement isn't super critical, I can use the Betterlight if really required. The main value of using tech camera lenses would be image quality but I wonder if the investment would really be worth it considering the level of quality today with the Otus combo.
Hum... tough choices. ;)
As you probably know the tech lenses are great at smaller apertures. You're not going to get something like shooting an Otus at f/1.4, so for those that like to employ short DoF in their images tech camera is not the (best) answer. With Otus you have only two focal lengths, and none really wide, to me that's a limitation. The strength of tech cam is that you have many focal lengths all with very good performance when used in their optimal aperture range. Except for a few of the wide angles tech lenses are actually relatively cheap too if you buy them on a lens board with Copal shutter.
But then again, if you're not so interested in movements, I think the case for a tech cam gets weaker. The key reason why I myself went for a tech cam is because I have movements tilt and swing with all focal lengths, and I also like to shoot images is one shot. If you don't mind stitching you can of course get even better quality with spherical stitching than any tech wide angle lens can provide.
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As you probably know the tech lenses are great at smaller apertures. You're not going to get something like shooting an Otus at f/1.4, so for those that like to employ short DoF in their images tech camera is not the (best) answer. With Otus you have only two focal lengths, and none really wide, to me that's a limitation. The strength of tech cam is that you have many focal lengths all with very good performance when used in their optimal aperture range. Except for a few of the wide angles tech lenses are actually relatively cheap too if you buy them on a lens board with Copal shutter.
But then again, if you're not so interested in movements, I think the case for a tech cam gets weaker. The key reason why I myself went for a tech cam is because I have movements tilt and swing with all focal lengths, and I also like to shoot images is one shot. If you don't mind stitching you can of course get even better quality with spherical stitching than any tech wide angle lens can provide.
Tilt would be nice to have for those images where DoF stacking doesn't work. Shift is less critical. I have seen reports about the shift behavior of the Sony sensor but very few about tilt... which worries me a bit. ;)
I would probably do spherical stitching anyway.
Then of course the look of some of those Zeiss lenses is pretty sweet and I have always wanted to experience the 503cw shooting style. Something I didn't find with my H1 years ago or Mamiya ZD that were basically DSLRs with nice viewfinders but lacking the perfection of my Nikons.
Now, look isn't that bad with my existing stuff, would it really be that different with legacy Zeiss lenses?
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5600/15524823992_686ef727a5_o.jpg)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3940/15524823662_c45320c288_o.jpg)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3940/15502051626_c51f3f6ec3_o.jpg)
Globally it would still be a costly effort... tough choices. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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The F/FE lenses can be mounted on a Pentax 645z via adapter. Exposure would be stop down metering - not fun, but workable.
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Hi,
If you are shooting large apertures on the "Blad" focusing will be critical. I don't know how well LV may work on the new back.
I did a "bokeh" shoot on flowers back in 2013 using the Planar 120/4 Macro on my Sony Alpha 99 and comparing it with my 70-400/4-5.6 G macro and a very old Minolta 200/8 macro. I didn't feel it was a lot of difference:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=77956.msg624435#msg624435
Raw images are here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/ThreeLenses/
But, these were shot at f/5.6 or so and not at full aperture.
Best regards
Erik
Tilt would be nice to have for those images where DoF stacking doesn't work. Shift is less critical. I have seen reports about the shift behavior of the Sony sensor but very few about tilt... which worries me a bit. ;)
I would probably do spherical stitching anyway.
Then of course the look of some of those Zeiss lenses is pretty sweet and I have always wanted to experience the 503cw shooting style. Something I didn't find with my H1 years ago or Mamiya ZD that were basically DSLRs with nice viewfinders but lacking the perfection of my Nikons.
Now, look isn't that bad with my existing stuff, would it really be that different with legacy Zeiss lenses?
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5600/15524823992_686ef727a5_o.jpg)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3940/15524823662_c45320c288_o.jpg)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3940/15502051626_c51f3f6ec3_o.jpg)
Globally it would still be a costly effort... tough choices. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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I just noticed that the CFV-50C can now be purchased new from a reputed vendor in Tokyo at 970,000 Yen including taxes.
https://www.mapcamera.com/item/7392544342207
That is another 1,000 US$ cheaper than what was reported last week.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I guess Map does 10% points like Yodobashi - you get to buy additional wares for the free points.
Would be astonished if a discounter somewhere in Tokyo doesn't do 5% under that without the points - although one might need to pay cash.
Edmund
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Wow... that's below my threshold. I can afford it, and it's "good enough value" for my money compared to the competition. That it doesn't work good enough with my preferred tech cam lens line is a show stopper for me though :-( I can only hope that this is not a one-off back but that there will be similar offers in future generations.
If this is the last V-mount back Hasselblad will make, then it could unfortunately be the only time we see this type of value for money being offered. I hope that won't be the case.
With the right lens choice and smaller amounts of movements it works on tech cams and package deals with the CFV-50c has been presented by European dealers recently. The pricing is originating from the $15k here though, but still much lower cost than other back alternatives. Hopefully the tech market will at last take off for Hasselblad with this back, and then maybe this new market will open their eyes for providing a lower cost back as a re-occurring event in their product line. Looking at the type of marketing the European tech dealers have it's clear that they sell a lot to price-sensitive amateurs, and I would not be surprised if there are more amateurs than professionals using tech cameras.
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I wonder if the Japan prices can also be had in Europe, with a bit of discussion. Anyone has experience negociating prices with Hasselblad (dealers) ?
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I expect Sinar will have a back soon using the same tech as Leica.
Edmund
Wow... that's below my threshold. I can afford it, and it's "good enough value" for my money compared to the competition. That it doesn't work good enough with my preferred tech cam lens line is a show stopper for me though :-( I can only hope that this is not a one-off back but that there will be similar offers in future generations.
If this is the last V-mount back Hasselblad will make, then it could unfortunately be the only time we see this type of value for money being offered. I hope that won't be the case.
With the right lens choice and smaller amounts of movements it works on tech cams and package deals with the CFV-50c has been presented by European dealers recently. The pricing is originating from the $15k here though, but still much lower cost than other back alternatives. Hopefully the tech market will at last take off for Hasselblad with this back, and then maybe this new market will open their eyes for providing a lower cost back as a re-occurring event in their product line. Looking at the type of marketing the European tech dealers have it's clear that they sell a lot to price-sensitive amateurs, and I would not be surprised if there are more amateurs than professionals using tech cameras.
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I guess Map does 10% points like Yodobashi - you get to buy additional wares for the free points.
Would be astonished if a discounter somewhere in Tokyo doesn't do 5% under that without the points - although one might need to pay cash.
In fact I don't believe they have a point system.
But it may be possible to find a bit cheaper still.
Now that remains a good pile of cash so if I ever decide to invest, I would probably buy from a retailer such as Map camera that I know I can trust and that has knowledgeable staff.
Cheers,
Bernard
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In fact I don't believe they have a point system.
But it may be possible to find a bit cheaper still.
Now that remains a good pile of cash so if I ever decide to invest, I would probably buy from a retailer such as Map camera that I know I can trust and that has knowledgeable staff.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard, you're right, Map seems to have no points.
Update on consulting their website, they do have points on their "used" gear.
https://www.mapcamera.com/item/3000009545424
Here's a link to an article about Map camera. As it points out, you usually get 5% "tax free" rebate with a foreign passport, and Yodobashi also will lower their prices if you show them an advert from elsewhere. I can't remember if I've been to Map, I bought some used equipment eg. 200/1.8 from places I found in the adverts of Nippon Kamera magazine.
http://www.martinbaileyphotography.com/2011/12/12/podcast-313-where-to-buy-camera-gear-in-tokyo-map-camera/
Edmund
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Here's a link to an article about Map camera. As it points out, you usually get 5% "tax free" rebate with a foreign passport, and Yodobashi also will lower their prices if you show them an advert from elsewhere.
Yes, I guess they check for visa though... that may not work for me. ;)
In the mean time, tax is now 8% in Japan so it is even more interesting.
Cheers,
Bernard
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What a difference a few years make.
Just looked at my past invoices from B&H (I was doing equipment inventory) and found the invoice for my Canon 1DS3 from March 2008, for $7999. I cringed. Of course, at the time no other DSLR had the same combination of excellent high res. full frame sensor and AF performance plus build quality and enough speed for good RAW shooting. Never mind that a few months later, during or just previous to that year's Photokina, Canon announced the 5D2 with a similar sensor, at less than half the price. Of course the sensor in the 5D2 ended up having a lot of shadow banding and the 1DS3 still is the Canon sensor with the most resolution and least shadow banding (almost none) combination.
And when I think about I have used that 1DS3 to make a LOT more money (net income) than that. A lot. So it's ok.
But nowadays it's gonna take one hell of a camera from Canon for me to spend that amount of money on a DSLR again.
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On the plus side, Ken; you're still better off than the guys who broke the piggy bank over a D3x. :D
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On the plus side, Ken; you're still better off than the guys who broke the piggy bank over a D3x. :D
jaja true. The D800/E/810 is a Killer. Humm but still the 3Dx used price has stabilized at around $3k. The 1DS3 around $2k. :'( Great deals IMHO. But yeah, not for the folks, like me, who got them new :'(
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On the plus side, Ken; you're still better off than the guys who broke the piggy bank over a D3x. :D
Why?
The D3x was announced a few months later at the same price, delivered a superior level of performance and kept as a result a higher resell value.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi,
I may feel that it is remarkable that the D3x used price is around $3k, given that you can buy a D810 for 3.3k.
But getting back to the OP, I gave $10 for my P45+ a year ago. Would it not be for the 1.3X crop factor I would be tempted to upgrade to the CFV-50c. I would add that it is much more expensive, like $17k including sales tax. Still a bit to much for me.
But, if live view turns out usable I may buy a ticket to Tokyo…
Best regards
Erik
jaja true. The D800/E/810 is a Killer. Humm but still the 3Dx used price has stabilized at around $3k. The 1DS3 around $2k. :'( Great deals IMHO. But yeah, not for the folks, like me, who got them new :'(
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In Sweden it is actually OK to import things if they have been used. For instance, a colleague of mine bought a golf set in the US and was stopped in customs, but they found a piece of grass on one of those clubs, so it was no issue.
But even if you pay all legal fees it would be 4000$ cheaper than when bought here.
Best regards
Erik
Don't you guys have import duties/ taxes to pay? Or are you all planning to smuggle them into your countries?
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it looks like that Japan has increased the price significantly :o
http://www.yodobashi.com/%E3%83%8F%E3%83%83%E3%82%BB%E3%83%AB%E3%83%96%E3%83%A9%E3%83%83%E3%83%89-Hasselblad-3034220-CFV-50c-%E3%83%87%E3%82%B8%E3%82%BF%E3%83%AB%E3%83%90%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF/pd/100000001002506481/
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Yep, the low price offer ended a while ago :(. The rumor I've heard is that dealers in Europe and US complained as they lost customers and Hasselblad then raised the Japanese price instead of lowering the European/US prices to match.
The prices had to be matched anyway, it's a global world. It seemed like some specialized in buying CFV-50c in Japan and selling them to EU/US with a profit, but still substantially cheaper than the $15k
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Oh well, can take this one off my list for now. I figured it was too good to be true for long.
Paul
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I think it would have been nicer if they had lowered the price in EU/US instead of increasing it in Japan. However, I heard that there was quite a waiting list. What to do when you can't produce in the same rate it's being sold, raising the price sounds like the easy way out.
Increasing production rate would probably be smarter though, if it would be possible.
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i was lucky enough to get one through a friend. he said it was out of stock most of the time during the promotion period in jp too.
unlike most parts of the world, hasselblad itself is the distributor in japan. i believe that is the reason why they could offer a lower price.
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Hi all,
I've read through this long thread and am disturbed to see a lot of discussion showing disregard for the CFV 50c, or preference of the Credo/Leaf/PhaseOne backs over the CFV 50c, yet not a single review or comparison featuring raw files has been linked or shown... Surely the people that voice those opinions are not just blowing hot air? Where are those reviews? Comparisons? Has nobody published an in depth review of this back yet?
Thanks
- Balt
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Reviews are few and far on any of the 50 MP CMOS backs. There is a good review over on getdpi.com on the Credo 50 by Guy Mancuso. Lula has written a lot about the 645Z. I have yet to see much on the 50c.
There is this post on the Getdpi forum where several good sample images have been posted.
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/52893-cfv50c-images.html (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/52893-cfv50c-images.html)
I would love to get my hands on one to test.
Paul
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Hi all,
I've read through this long thread and am disturbed to see a lot of discussion showing disregard for the CFV 50c, or preference of the Credo/Leaf/PhaseOne backs over the CFV 50c, yet not a single review or comparison featuring raw files has been linked or shown... Surely the people that voice those opinions are not just blowing hot air? Where are those reviews? Comparisons? Has nobody published an in depth review of this back yet?
Thanks
- Balt
Honestly I do not think one should expect much difference between all the backs/cameras that use the same Sony 50MP CMOS sensor in regards to Image Quality (of the sensor / camera per se). There might be some slight differences in RAW image processing but I would not expect much. There are however big differences between the systems but more in regards to optics (which of course do affect image quality and look), body/features, tethering performance / stability and just overall functionality.
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Color is very different if you go with the manufacturers profiles and curves, which I think most actually do. If you make your own profiles they will match up well of course.
From what I've heard Hasselblad is quite good at keeping the same basic look across cameras with very different sensors, thanks to profiling. So if one like Hassy color, one will like the CFV-50c. The CFV-50c uses the same profiles as H5D-50c.
The great opportunity with the CFV-50c as I see it is use on tech cams, where the lenses will be the same as for any other Sony CMOS back at a much lower cost than the alternatives, even now when price is back up at $15k.
Over at getdpi there are some images posted.