Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: John Koerner on September 28, 2014, 02:06:22 pm

Title: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: John Koerner on September 28, 2014, 02:06:22 pm
I realize there are already alot of posts about Canon, especially about "abandoning the pros," but there is a recent DP Review interview with Canon's Masaya Maeda (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7079726133/photokina-2014-canon-interview-mirrorless-in-the-very-near-future), where he addresses most of the questions put on here, and where he states that he believes Canon already has the best sensors in their cameras, all things considered. He also answers questions about "would Canon use other sensors?"

When asked directly about the sensor in the new G7X not being made by Canon, and if this this represents a new philosophy at Canon, Maeda said, "We select the best sensor, whoever the manufacturer is. That’s our policy."

When asked directly about Canon DSLR sensors not quite competing with some modern sensors from Sony (in terms of dynamic range), Maeda said, "I’m not sure what measurements you’re looking at but when it comes to dynamic range for example we consider image quality as a whole, from low to high ISO sensitivities and on balance we consider our sensors to be the best. My ideal camera is one that can take a picture in any environment from complete darkness to the brightest sunshine." (I also assume he means other considerations, such as color/skin tone, etc.)

When asked directly about the 7D II Maeda said, "We think that in the EOS 7D Mark II we got very close to achieving EOS-1D-type features in a lightweight body." (Therefore, as suspected, the goal wasn't absolute resolution, but excellent resolution backed by greater overall speed/control/flexibility.)

When asked directly about the fact that no Canon camera offers more than 22mp resolution, Maeda said, "We know that many of our customers need more resolution and this is under consideration. In the very near future you can expect us to show something in terms of mirrorless and also a higher resolution sensor."

I read that as meaning that Canon's next big move is going to be a double-feature: both higher resolution and on a mirrorless ...

Will be interesting to see ...
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Chris_Brown on September 28, 2014, 03:09:29 pm
The trick focusing with Canon's dual-pixel tech only works when the sensor is receiving/reading light, and a mirror flapping around disrupts the focusing ability. A mirror-less camera system would address this issue (as in their C-300/500 cine cameras).

I also think that Canon looks at the photographer who needs high pixel count, without über-autofocus, is a niche market compared to all the amateurs and PJ/Sports pros who utilize autofocus w/ high frame rates. This tipped my vote to "whole picture".
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: robdickinson on September 28, 2014, 03:27:47 pm
TBH canon sensors are probably the best balance of low ISO quality with high ISO ability and resolution.

And regardless of that the market is still loving their gear. My last workshop out of 22 people 21 used canon...

Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: John Koerner on September 28, 2014, 05:47:02 pm
The trick focusing with Canon's dual-pixel tech only works when the sensor is receiving/reading light, and a mirror flapping around disrupts the focusing ability. A mirror-less camera system would address this issue (as in their C-300/500 cine cameras).

Good points.



I also think that Canon looks at the photographer who needs high pixel count, without über-autofocus, is a niche market compared to all the amateurs and PJ/Sports pros who utilize autofocus w/ high frame rates. This tipped my vote to "whole picture".

I think this is absolutely the case. It's proven by sales #s, it's proven by market share, and it's proven by what their focus has been: they just came out with a 200-400 mm + 1.4x tele lens, without any rival ... their 1Dx is already the leader in FF sports/nature hands ... and they just came out with the 7D II for demanding amateur nature hands.

I think the last statements he made about FF resolution and mirrorless show a desire now to specifically address the high-pixel, ultimate res crowd in a unique way. But they handled their largest customer base first, as well they should.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: John Koerner on September 28, 2014, 05:57:32 pm
TBH canon sensors are probably the best balance of low ISO quality with high ISO ability and resolution.

That seems to be what he said, yes. The focus is overall excellence in balance, not one extreme.


And regardless of that the market is still loving their gear. My last workshop out of 22 people 21 used canon...

The world has a place for niche vendors, and it is good to have niche vendors for those occupying that niche.

However, the most successful vendors are going to be those who target the needs of the greatest majority, and address all of their issues well, and I think Canon knows this.

To market only the comparatively-small group, such as landscape photographers (who need high px $3,500 cameras), at the expense of  the needs of the much more voluminous general enthusiast (who wants a truly capable all-around $1-$2,000 camera) ... or the great number of pro sports photographers (who want a fully-functional beast at $6-7,000) is not the wisest way to go. It seems, now that Canon has addressed the needs of its largest base of consumers, amateurs and sports pros, and only now are they going to focus on the smaller subset of high-res folks.

I think the numbers your workshops reflect indicate the soundness of their strategy.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Glenn NK on September 29, 2014, 12:05:22 am

However, the most successful vendors are going to be those who target the needs of the greatest majority, and address all of their issues well, and I think Canon knows this.

To market only the comparatively-small group, such as landscape photographers (who need high px $3,500 cameras), at the expense of  the needs of the much more voluminous general enthusiast (who wants a truly capable all-around $1-$2,000 camera) ... or the great number of pro sports photographers (who want a fully-functional beast at $6-7,000) is not the wisest way to go. It seems, now that Canon has addressed the needs of its largest base of consumers, amateurs and sports pros, and only now are they going to focus on the smaller subset of high-res folks.

I think the numbers your workshops reflect indicate the soundness of their strategy.

Jack

Jack:

It seem to me that so many posters are missing this point on forums lately.  Single issues seem to be in vogue, ignoring the fact that a corporation's primary duty is to create a profit for the owners - not satisfy a niche group of buyers.  The exception would be a corporation that is small and has a highly specialized/unique product on which it has a monopoly.  I can't think of any corporation in photography manufacture that fits into this exception/category.

And yet, I keep reading posts suggesting that Canon/Nikon have "lost their way", "are ignoring the pros", and "don't know what they're doing or where they're going".

Glenn
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 29, 2014, 12:25:50 am
... However, the most successful vendors are going to be those who target the needs of the greatest majority, and address all of their issues well, and I think Canon knows this...

And what do you think drives those needs? If the majority of Canon's profits comes from Rebels, why are people buying them? Because of the name Canon, which the masses heard is the leader in the digital era. And it had become the leader based not on Rebels but on 5D, top of the line.

There was a time when Nikon was the undisputed professional camera (in the film era).  Canon tried to match it with F1, but never got close. If you were an amateur at the time, you would go for a cheaper Nikon model, because you knew Nikon is the undisputed pro king at the time.

How long before the unwashed masses learn that Canon has lost it to Nikon at the top? Do you think they would still stand in line for Rebels?
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: John Koerner on September 29, 2014, 12:30:49 am
Jack:
It seem to me that so many posters are missing this point on forums lately.  Single issues seem to be in vogue, ignoring the fact that a corporation's primary duty is to create a profit for the owners - not satisfy a niche group of buyers.  The exception would be a corporation that is small and has a highly specialized/unique product on which it has a monopoly.  I can't think of any corporation in photography manufacture that fits into this exception/category.
And yet, I keep reading posts suggesting that Canon/Nikon have "lost their way", "are ignoring the pros", and "don't know what they're doing or where they're going".
Glenn

Agreed Glenn.

But I am going to stop talking about gear anymore (except positively) ... if I can help it  ;D
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Osprey on September 29, 2014, 12:40:10 am
Some of these points are good ones, particularly for things like the 1dx which are very competitive on the high end.  But, for the money in the market, the 5DMkII+ series doesn't look good compared to the aggressively priced D800+ series.  Nikon's cheaper full frame offerings are also very competitive with the 5d series.
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: LKaven on September 29, 2014, 02:51:14 am
It seem to me that so many posters are missing this point on forums lately.  Single issues seem to be in vogue, ignoring the fact that a corporation's primary duty is to create a profit for the owners - not satisfy a niche group of buyers. 
[...]
And yet, I keep reading posts suggesting that Canon/Nikon have "lost their way", "are ignoring the pros", and "don't know what they're doing or where they're going".

Both companies create profit for their owners while making lots of mistakes along the way.  If they haven't /completely/ lost their way, it doesn't mean they haven't lost their way.

I'm sure sending out tens of thousands of defective shutters on the D600 and then having to replace the cameras entirely was not a finely calculated strategy on Nikon's part.  I don't think that created lots of profit for the owners. 

Nor do I think that Canon is happy that it lost the studio DSLR market by not coming up with a high-resolution camera.  Not only are such cameras profitable, but they promote the sales of the rest of their catalog.
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Jim Pascoe on September 29, 2014, 04:25:33 am
Some of these points are good ones, particularly for things like the 1dx which are very competitive on the high end.  But, for the money in the market, the 5DMkII+ series doesn't look good compared to the aggressively priced D800+ series.  Nikon's cheaper full frame offerings are also very competitive with the 5d series.

I have a 1Ds 111 which is about six years old and my wife has a 5D 111 which is a few months old.  Both of these cameras are fantastic picture making tools and earn us a reasonable living.  I'm not saying that they are any better than the Nikon equivalents but they are superb cameras and frankly most professional photographers probably don't need more. 

I also have a new E-M1 and already have been using Panasonic micro four thirds for five years.  To me the biggest camera missing with both Canon and Nikon is a full frame EVF camera which would have huge benefits to pro's shooting both stills and video. After having GH2's and now the E-M1 with built in OIS I can safely say that I doubt I will buy another Canon optical VF camera - not because they're deficient for photography - just that for video they are lacking by comparison - for the way I and lots of other photographers shoot.

Jim
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Simon Garrett on September 29, 2014, 06:18:35 am
And what do you think drives those needs? If the majority of Canon's profits comes from Rebels, why are people buying them? Because of the name Canon, which the masses heard is the leader in the digital era. And it had become the leader based not on Rebels but on 5D, top of the line.

There was a time when Nikon was the undisputed professional camera (in the film era).  Canon tried to match it with F1, but never got close. If you were an amateur at the time, you would go for a cheaper Nikon model, because you knew Nikon is the undisputed pro king at the time.

How long before the unwashed masses learn that Canon has lost it to Nikon at the top? Do you think they would still stand in line for Rebels?

That's one factor in establishing a brand, but only one factor.  I'm not convinced that it's the only factor in driving low-cost camera sales, even consumer-end DSLRs. 

It's rather like saying that people choose airline by the quality of First Class seats.  In fact, BA for years used that sort of marketing.  They sold economy seats by association with luxury that was certainly not being offered to economy passengers. 

Until, of course, the lo-cos took away much of their economy business. 

As with airlines, it can act against you: "they are a premium brand that don't really care about low-end, and we can offer the same quality at lower prices."
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: allegretto on September 29, 2014, 08:29:45 am


How long before the unwashed masses learn that Canon has lost it to Nikon at the top?

When in this going to happen..?
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Keith Reeder on September 29, 2014, 08:42:50 am
How long before the unwashed masses learn that Canon has lost it to Nikon at the top? Do you think they would still stand in line for Rebels?

Oh, here we go - Canon users are inherently ignorant and easily fooled - is that what you're saying, Slobodan? Or you incapable of expressing youself as anything other than a patronising bully?

Canon has not "lost it" to Nikon - not at the top, or anywhere else: the 1D-x outsells the D4s, just the same way that anywhere else Canon and Nikon have broadly comparable cameras, the Canons sell better.

And it's not because Canon is better known (Nikon advertises on TV about ten times more in the UK than Canon does) but because Canon kit performs.
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Keith Reeder on September 29, 2014, 08:45:06 am
Nor do I think that Canon is happy that it lost the studio DSLR market by not coming up with a high-resolution camera. 

And can you cite proof that Canon has "lost the studio DSLR market"?
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: John Koerner on September 29, 2014, 09:21:22 am
How long before the unwashed masses learn that Canon has lost it to Nikon at the top? Do you think they would still stand in line for Rebels?

I don't believe $3,000 landscape cameras are "at the top" of the DSLR market ... $7,000 sports cameras are ... where Canon is at the top.

Also, in selling high volumes of selling entry-level cameras ... which means Nikon owns the middle, not the top.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 29, 2014, 09:25:34 am
When in this going to happen..?

That is the same question I heard from my general manager at Kodak, when I told him the digital is going to take over, implying its not going to happen anytime soon.
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: John Koerner on September 29, 2014, 09:33:49 am
As said on another thread, two things are true: there is a lot of talent out there in the electronics/gadgetry world, and no "one" company is going to be able to own all the talent.

It is quite natural that some companies are going to offer "the best" in some respects, and "not quite the best" in other respects.

I suspect it will always be that way, but I think Canon knows which markets offer the most $$ return (amateurs and sports) and is concentrating its efforts in those markets.

Based on the interview with Maeda, it appears Canon may have their eyes on filling that mid-level, high-res/$3500 market with a new solution (mirrorless).

With Samsung entering into the fray, it will be quite interesting to see what kind of lens line-ups they provide.

Uber-high, high ISO capability is something I am interested in with > 1:! natural light macro photography, so high ISO capability is something I am interested in ... but I also need the lenses too.
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 29, 2014, 11:14:08 am
Oh, here we go - Canon users are inherently ignorant and easily fooled - is that what you're saying, Slobodan? Or you incapable of expressing youself as anything other than a patronising bully?...

I am a Canon user, the last 40 years.

Keith, are you incapable expressing yourself without resorting to personal attacks?
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: LKaven on September 29, 2014, 11:54:37 am
And can you cite proof that Canon has "lost the studio DSLR market"?

Putting aside the fact that you can use any DSLR in the studio, I think it's clear that Canon has been slow to come up with a high-resolution camera, or any camera with more than 11.5 stops of DR.  They might return with an entry in this sector, but not as soon as hoped for.
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: NancyP on September 29, 2014, 12:28:29 pm
"The unwashed masses" who want to shoot with a full-sized camera (as opposed to a phone or sub-compact) want a camera with good ergonomics and overall functionality. Ease of use is a huge seller of cameras. If a camera doesn't feel right in the hand, if the controls are badly placed, if the menus stink, the people who want to enjoy the process of photography are not happy. Even the geeks want cameras that are appealing to use - that blasted aluminum brick design of the Sigma DP Merrills only became tolerable with the addition of third-party L-bracket-grips.
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: allegretto on September 29, 2014, 04:35:24 pm
I am a Canon user, the last 40 years.



then sit down with me, share a glass of Canon Kool-Aide and let's see what kind of rabbits Canon pulls out of its hat in the next couple months

Think it cute that Canon did not blow its load at Photokina. A lot of noise there.

They will wait for Oct-Nov for guys like you and me to buy the 5D Mk IV or 6D Mk ii with 54MPx and high ISO performance. DR too, of course. For our "Christmas Present" to ourselves

Nikon has a couple of great cameras I'd like to play with, but I have some Canon glass that's just itching for resolution
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: allegretto on September 29, 2014, 04:37:03 pm
"The unwashed masses" who want to shoot with a full-sized camera (as opposed to a phone or sub-compact) want a camera with good ergonomics and overall functionality. Ease of use is a huge seller of cameras. If a camera doesn't feel right in the hand, if the controls are badly placed, if the menus stink, the people who want to enjoy the process of photography are not happy. Even the geeks want cameras that are appealing to use - that blasted aluminum brick design of the Sigma DP Merrills only became tolerable with the addition of third-party L-bracket-grips.

Amen..!!!

RRS makes that camera hold-able
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: NancyP on September 29, 2014, 04:44:26 pm
Isn't the high end studio market (with tethering) dominated by MF?
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 29, 2014, 06:40:33 pm
Isn't the high end studio market (with tethering) dominated by MF?

From our Pro forum:

... The D800 files where as good if not better than the Leaf Aptus 75 I used to own.

It was after I purchase the D800E that I sold all my large format, medium format and D3x equipment as it all became redundant...
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: allegretto on September 29, 2014, 07:48:51 pm
After I got my Nikon 999 I dumped my wife and kids, quit my day job, sold all my Earthly possessions (except my trusty Nikkor lenses) and now I just walk the Earth, taking pictures, studying kung-fu and meditating.
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 29, 2014, 08:02:47 pm
After I got my Nikon 999 I...

Those Nikon trolls will never stop!

Go do your yoga and let Canon die in peace!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: allegretto on September 29, 2014, 08:08:15 pm
Those Nikon trolls will never stop!

Go do your yoga and let Canon die in peace!

Cheers,
Bernard


Huh… what…!
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Chris_Brown on September 29, 2014, 09:52:52 pm
Canon net sales 2013 (http://www.canon.com/ir/annual/2013/report2013.pdf): $35,500,000,000
Nikon net sales 2013 (http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/ar/pdf/ar2013/13annual_e.pdf): $10,500,000,000

Canon's POV of the situation:
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: allegretto on September 29, 2014, 11:58:58 pm
Canon net sales 2013 (http://www.canon.com/ir/annual/2013/report2013.pdf): $35,500,000,000
Nikon net sales 2013 (http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/ar/pdf/ar2013/13annual_e.pdf): $10,500,000,000

Canon's POV of the situation:

so that's what a Hasselblad looks like...
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Geraldo Garcia on September 30, 2014, 01:39:47 am
so that's what a Hasselblad looks like...

"Cover Photo:
The Cinema EOS System Its ultra-high-sensitivity 4K camera succeeded in capturing the world’s-first video of the comet ISON from the International Space Station. (The picture is aconcept image.)"
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: BJL on September 30, 2014, 09:44:06 am
Canon net sales 2013 (http://www.canon.com/ir/annual/2013/report2013.pdf): $35,500,000,000
Nikon net sales 2013 (http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/ar/pdf/ar2013/13annual_e.pdf): $10,500,000,000
The numbers you cite are for all of each company's products, and for Canon, a great majority of that is not the photographic equipment under discussion here. (Nikon's photographic division is a far large fraction of its total business).

Do you have numbers for Canon and Nikon's interchangeable lens cameras and lenses, since that is the focus of this discussion?
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Chris_Brown on September 30, 2014, 11:09:06 am
The numbers you cite are for all of each company's products, and for Canon, a great majority of that is not the photographic equipment under discussion here. (Nikon's photographic division is a far large fraction of its total business).

Do you have numbers for Canon and Nikon's interchangeable lens cameras and lenses, since that is the focus of this discussion?
Read the report! Page 11 for an overview.  ::)

I don't assume that Canon builds internal walls between divisions. Technology developed by one division is shared among the others as needed, and as is profitable.

With Sony manufacturing sensors for Nikon, Phase One & Hassy, I do wonder if Canon has evaluated being an OEM supplier to other camera/electronics companies. Maybe their licensing terms are too restricting. And with Samsung now jumping into the pool, I suspect the water will be getting warmer.

Samsung gross profit 2013 (http://www.samsung.com/us/aboutsamsung/investor_relations/financial_information/downloads/2013/2013-samsung-electronic-report.pdf): $70,550,000,000
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: John Koerner on September 30, 2014, 11:12:00 am
Read the report! Page 11 for an overview.  ::)

I don't assume that Canon builds internal walls between divisions. Technology developed by one division is shared among the others as needed, and as is profitable.

With Sony manufacturing sensors for Nikon, Phase One & Hassy, I do wonder if Canon has evaluated being an OEM supplier to other camera/electronics companies. Maybe their licensing terms are too restricting. And with Samsung now jumping into the pool, I suspect the water will be getting warmer.

Samsung gross profit 2013 (http://www.samsung.com/us/aboutsamsung/investor_relations/financial_information/downloads/2013/2013-samsung-electronic-report.pdf): $70,550,000,000

Gross profit here, net sales above.

.
Title: Looking at The Whole Picture, including products little related to cameras?
Post by: BJL on September 30, 2014, 02:21:11 pm
Read the report! Page 11 for an overview.  ::)
I read it, and that was my point: the Imaging Systems Business Unit accounts for only 39% of the revenue that you quote of Canon, whereas "Imaging Products" are 74% of Nikon's revenues, and Canon's "Imaging" unit is more diverse, with things like printers, camcorders and broadcast equipment that Nikon does not have.  So the total company-wide revenue numbers you headlined are useless as a comparison of the "system camera bodies and lenses" sector that we are discussing.  As to technology sharing, surely a better way to measure the benefits of that it to look at the consequences as indicated by sales, revenues and such for the product sector we are discussing, not saying "this company is bigger and and more diversified". After all, by that corporate-wide net sales measure, the ranking is:
Samsung > Sony, Panasonic (roughly a tie, each twice as big as Canon) > Canon > Nikon.

The fact that Samsung Electronics is a giant due to its diverse strengths in areas like big screen TV's and mobile phones (not to mention the washing machines and refrigerators and ship-bulding etc. of other divisions of Samsung) does not tell me much about its prospects in system cameras.
Samsung gross profit 2013 (http://www.samsung.com/us/aboutsamsung/investor_relations/financial_information/downloads/2013/2013-samsung-electronic-report.pdf): $70,550,000,000
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: chez on October 01, 2014, 09:13:16 pm
The numbers you cite are for all of each company's products, and for Canon, a great majority of that is not the photographic equipment under discussion here. (Nikon's photographic division is a far large fraction of its total business).

Do you have numbers for Canon and Nikon's interchangeable lens cameras and lenses, since that is the focus of this discussion?

Actually  Canon's imagining division revenue was $13,799,000 which is a lot closer to Nikon's revenue for the year.
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 01, 2014, 09:28:09 pm
So we have 56% of voters in denial about the denial of Canon's denial?

What exactly does that tell us about the age of the captain?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: BJL on October 01, 2014, 10:50:46 pm
Actually  Canon's imagining division revenue was $13,799,000 which is a lot closer to Nikon's revenue for the year.

And as I (and the annual report) said, a chunk of that is "printers, camcorders and broadcast equipment", so how do their system camera and lenses operations compare?

Anyway, it's all rather silly to measure the virtues and prospects a company's high end photographic products simply by revenues. How about looking at the trends in their products instead?


P. S. I am anyway sure that Canon and Nikon's SLR divisions are both doing fine; compacts seem to be what is mainly dragging down the corporate divisions that make "cameras that cannot make phone calls".
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: MoreOrLess on October 02, 2014, 08:39:57 pm
I also think that Canon looks at the photographer who needs high pixel count, without über-autofocus, is a niche market compared to all the amateurs and PJ/Sports pros who utilize autofocus w/ high frame rates. This tipped my vote to "whole picture".

I can see why Canon thinks/thought this way as the AF/FPS market likely views FF DSLR's as the ultimate tool for theior profession where as in the high res market digital MF likely takes that spot. However I think Canon underestimated the degree to which FF could advance to combat MF as evidence by the D800 success and perhaps put too much of the 5D2's success down to video rather than its high resolution.

The lack of a high resolution Canon has IMHO allowed Nikon back into the game with FF DSLR's when it looked like Canon was going to dominant.
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: BJL on October 03, 2014, 12:57:44 pm
However I think Canon underestimated the degree to which FF could advance to combat MF as evidence by the D800 success ...
What fraction of the SLR market do you think "MF replacement" is for either Canon or Nikon?  My guess is that it is one nice source of profit in the mix, and adds to brand prestige which helps to sell far higher volume, lower-priced models, but it is far from the dominant source of revenues or profits in their SLR divisions, or even in their "professional and serious amateur SLR" divisions, where journalism, sports, wildlife and such are bigger markets.

Warning: the opinions and wish-lists expressed in this forum (like many online enthusiast forums) are massively skewed relative to the overall actual real-world market for interchangeable lens cameras!  As an example, if the enthusiasms expressed in posts here were a representative sample of purchasing patterns, the camera market MF makers would all be clamoring to ditch the puny, Japanese-created 645 format in favor of cameras with 6x6 or larger sensors.  (Probably with a permanently attached single focal length lens too.)
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: allegretto on October 03, 2014, 03:47:37 pm
What fraction of the SLR market do you think "MF replacement" is for either Canon or Nikon?  My guess is that it is one nice source of profit in the mix, and adds to brand prestige which helps to sell far higher volume, lower-priced models, but it is far from the dominant source of revenues or profits in their SLR divisions, or even in their "professional and serious amateur SLR" divisions, where journalism, sports, wildlife and such are bigger markets.

Warning: the opinions and wish-lists expressed in this forum (like many online enthusiast forums) are massively skewed relative to the overall actual real-world market for interchangeable lens cameras!  As an example, if the enthusiasms expressed in posts here were a representative sample of purchasing patterns, the camera market MF makers would all be clamoring to ditch the puny, Japanese-created 645 format in favor of cameras with 6x6 or larger sensors.  (Probably with a permanently attached single focal length lens too.)


Digital back for Rollei DLR's anyone….?
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Chris_Brown on October 03, 2014, 04:43:51 pm
What fraction of the SLR market do you think "MF replacement" is for either Canon or Nikon?

It'd be nice to see a breakdown of the entire photographic market in terms of owners of MF gear, FF DSLR gear, APC DSLR gear, and P&S gear. (I have a hunch the cell phone market dwarfs it all, thus the eventual death of P&S gear.) Is there any web site with this info?
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: BJL on October 03, 2014, 09:18:59 pm
It'd be nice to see a breakdown of the entire photographic market in terms of owners of MF gear, FF DSLR gear, APC DSLR gear, and P&S gear. (I have a hunch the cell phone market dwarfs it all, thus the eventual death of P&S gear.) Is there any web site with this info?
Yes, I also an very curious. Presumably, by far the biggest and most profitable sellers of photographic equipment are Apple and Samsung, heirs to the Kodak gestalt of You Press the Button, We Do the Rest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Press_the_Button,_We_Do_the_Rest)", but above and beyond, that, I would love to see the details.
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: barryfitzgerald on October 06, 2014, 04:23:07 am
I'd hardly expect a Canon company guy to come out and say their sensors are not the best out there.
I don't think there are any complaints for high ISO performance (there isn't a lot of difference between the makers here)
Dynamic range hands on real world no Canon's DR isn't as good as other makers and that included full frame bodies as well as APS-C

In fact their FF bodies have worse DR than a crop body camera with a Sony/Toshiba sensor
Doesn't seem to have dented their market share though maybe it's a non issue for most
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: powerslave12r on October 08, 2014, 11:10:04 am
This poll needs a third option.

'Perhaps, they are trying their best and falling short on some fronts.'

Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: Chris_Brown on October 08, 2014, 11:25:54 am
This poll needs a third option.
'Perhaps, they are trying their best and falling short on some fronts.'

True. A major assumption is that Canon's collective brain trust is constantly growing & improving, and that tech breakthroughs are constantly happening within their walls.

Let's hope they don't do a Kodak.
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: NancyP on October 08, 2014, 08:01:16 pm
At a total of 34 votes, I can guarantee that the Canon marketing people aren't noticing us.   ::)
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: synn on October 08, 2014, 08:43:16 pm
Too bad the fake chuck westfall blog closed down. This would've made an excellent post.
Title: Re: Canon: In Denial - or Looking at The Whole Picture?
Post by: powerslave12r on October 08, 2014, 10:04:52 pm
I wonder if this Canon's way of damage control?

http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/10/multilayer-sensors-are-coming-from-canon-cr2/

If something comes out of it, I'll be a happy camper.