Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Chris Barrett on September 22, 2014, 12:22:07 pm

Title: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Chris Barrett on September 22, 2014, 12:22:07 pm
Having spent hours comparing both activities through practical tests, I can, without hesitation, state that images drawn in the dirt have far greater resolution and dynamic range than any work that can be created with spit bubbles.  The dirt has much greater depth, that, regardless of any DxO marks, is clearly visible to the trained eye.  On the surface, dirt is typically more dry and imbued with a light brown character.  By drawing with a stick of appreciable tensile strength, once can reach lower layers of the dirt which have greater moisture... which provides darker tones, allowing much more contrast and tonal range than can be achieved with spit bubbles.

Additionally, if one is most selective about the location of the dirt, a very fine grain of soil can be found.  Of course, with proper technique, spit bubbles can be made of very fine size, but they will never surpass the resolution of the finest dirt.

Now, spit bubbles do arguably allow for a more efficient workflow and the artist can often create much more work in a day.  So, in the end I suppose it all comes down to personal preference and the needs of the client.

I urge you to pursue your own real world tests before subscribing to internet dribble and possibly making any foregone conclusions.

IMHO,
CB
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Ken Doo on September 22, 2014, 12:30:25 pm
You must be using a medium format stick.

 ;D
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Manoli on September 22, 2014, 12:31:59 pm
I can, without hesitation, state that images drawn in the dirt have far greater resolution and dynamic range than any work that can be created with spit bubbles. 

This is undoubtedly true but nevertheless spit bubbles do retain greater colour depth and reproduce admirably on cotton based papers even though they're subject to yellow fading if not adequately shielded from UV exposure.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Kumar on September 22, 2014, 12:46:32 pm
And, of course, dirt has fatter pixels :)

Kumar
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: JoeKitchen on September 22, 2014, 12:50:28 pm
Having spent hours comparing both activities through practical tests, I can, without hesitation, state that images drawn in the dirt have far greater resolution and dynamic range than any work that can be created with spit bubbles.  The dirt has much greater depth, that, regardless of any DxO marks, is clearly visible to the trained eye.  On the surface, dirt is typically more dry and imbued with a light brown character.  By drawing with a stick of appreciable tensile strength, once can reach lower layers of the dirt which have greater moisture... which provides darker tones, allowing much more contrast and tonal range than can be achieved with spit bubbles.

Additionally, if one is most selective about the location of the dirt, a very fine grain of soil can be found.  Of course, with proper technique, spit bubbles can be made of very fine size, but they will never surpass the resolution of the finest dirt.

Now, spit bubbles do arguably allow for a more efficient workflow and the artist can often create much more work in a day.  So, in the end I suppose it all comes down to personal preference and the needs of the client.

I urge you to pursue your own real world tests before subscribing to internet dribble and possibly making any foregone conclusions.

IMHO,
CB

This is totally true, but lets forget the fact that an artist, with dirt, is limited to the color of the dirt which he finds and is in his assessable area.  The color of spit can be altered, depending on the choose of which lollipop flavor the artist had a urge for that day. 
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Chris Livsey on September 22, 2014, 01:27:13 pm
This is totally true, but lets forget the fact that an artist, with dirt, is limited to the color of the dirt which he finds and is in his assessable area.  The color of spit can be altered, depending on the choose of which lollipop flavor the artist had a urge for that day. 

In summary then: dirt is fixed in hardware, unless changing the stick which is surely firmware, but spit is configurable with software?
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Don Libby on September 22, 2014, 01:28:28 pm
This is all fine and good however where was the dirt obtained from; likewise the stick?  I'd also question the quality of the bubbles - what lubricant was used to obtain the bubbles; plain tap water or high-end imported stuff?

These are all questions that need to be answered before we can move on the next phase....

 :-\
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Don Libby on September 22, 2014, 01:30:35 pm
This is all fine and good however where was the dirt obtained from; likewise the stick?  I'd also question the quality of the bubbles - what lubricant was used to obtain the bubbles; plain tap water or high-end imported stuff?

These are all questions that need to be answered before we can move on the next phase....

 :-\

Chris - Agree with the analysis; now we need to find out if its an open or closed system.

 :D
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: bcooter on September 22, 2014, 01:49:27 pm
How many times did you spit?

If only 800 times that's not enough.  You need to spit at leaset 810 times.

The quality of spit then has a whole different look.

Do you have to buy your dirt?  I live in a city so my dirt goes through a dealer.   If only I could get it for less, like people that live on farms, or Mars.

They get their dirt direct.

Thanks

BC

Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: TMARK on September 22, 2014, 01:52:11 pm
Care to offer some support for your contentions?  I have yet to see a chart or a graph explaining any of this. 
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: MrSmith on September 22, 2014, 01:58:41 pm
I'm with you there 99% but it's the corner performance wide open that's stopping me from committing, that and the acceptance of my camera club peers if I emotionally invest in the wrong system.
But thanks for sharing anyway.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Eddie van der Walt on September 22, 2014, 02:09:12 pm
hahahaha, spitting with laughter here.

Well and truly Lampooned.

 ;D
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Bob Gundu on September 22, 2014, 03:03:04 pm
But which technique will impress the females? Thats all that really matters to me.  ;D
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Gigi on September 22, 2014, 03:41:54 pm
what did you eat before you spit? It affects the dirt.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: alatreille on September 22, 2014, 04:04:05 pm
But if we apply our spit bubbles to the dirt, we are confronted with an entirely different format....
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: synn on September 22, 2014, 05:55:48 pm
Have you tried stitching the spit?
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Chris Livsey on September 22, 2014, 06:12:35 pm
 I live in a city so my dirt goes through a dealer.  

But then you get all the benefit of professional dirt support, at a price. The spitters are on their own.

I did hear a rumour at Photokina that Leica were looking to enter the high-end dirt market, and not with rebadged Panasonic dirt either  ;)
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Joe Towner on September 22, 2014, 06:47:15 pm
What beverage did you consume prior to making said spit?  Was it natural sugar or fake? 

Was any alcohol involved in the spit?  If not, why?
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: JV on September 22, 2014, 06:48:15 pm
I did hear a rumour at Photokina that Leica were looking to enter the high-end dirt market, and not with rebadged Panasonic dirt either  ;)

According to my source "organic" dirt is the future!!
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: dchew on September 22, 2014, 06:53:35 pm
But bubbles are way more fun.

(http://www.davechewphotography.com/temp_images/DChew_111109_091313-bw-FrameShop.jpg)
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 22, 2014, 06:55:24 pm
If only dirt could still be available in quickloads!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: sgilbert on September 22, 2014, 07:07:42 pm
As Doug always points out, whichever medium you choose, it's important that you have a reliable dealer. 
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: eronald on September 22, 2014, 07:19:14 pm
As Doug always points out, whichever medium you choose, it's important that you have a reliable dealer. 

That's true, reputation counts a lot when dishing out dirt.

Edmund
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Martin Ranger on September 22, 2014, 07:46:02 pm
Having spent hours comparing both activities through practical tests, I can, without hesitation, state that images drawn in the dirt have far greater resolution and dynamic range than any work that can be created with spit bubbles. 

Sure, but the process of forming the spit bubbles slows me down and makes me think more about my art. On the other hand, "spray and pray" has just gotten a completely new meaning.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: araucaria on September 22, 2014, 09:04:40 pm
Dirt is getting expensive, and most of the dirt flavours have ceased to exist. Soon there will be no dirt left. I love the dirt anyway.
Big Spit Bubbles are way to expensive.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: MichaelEzra on September 22, 2014, 09:18:23 pm
Some of the questions that arise promptly:
1. Are there some fundamental limitations for the length of the stick and for the spitting distance?
2. Should another, more ethical, spitt-less and stick-less technique be considered to surpass such limitations?
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: synn on September 22, 2014, 09:26:35 pm
Truthfully though, I am leaning towards the newfangled spitless formats, these days.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: rpsphoto on September 22, 2014, 10:32:07 pm
I find peeing in the snow yields the best results especially for high key abstracts. They can be a bit grainy depending on the type of snow.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: MichaelEzra on September 22, 2014, 11:18:13 pm
I find peeing in the snow yields the best results especially for high key abstracts. They can be a bit grainy depending on the type of snow.
:))
You might need to consider the archival properties of your medium.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Don Libby on September 23, 2014, 12:42:21 am
The cost of good high quality dirt just went up shortly after this thread was made.  I tried to get an upgrade to the dirt I had but was surprised at the cost.  Going to begin researching cost factors for high quality spit material think those will go up as well.  Also tried to get a new stick but my dealer was sold out with no idea of when the new upgrades would actual ship. I'm thinking I might be forced to revert to sand and using my finger unless someone has a suggestion.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 23, 2014, 01:56:45 am
I find peeing in the snow yields the best results especially for high key abstracts. They can be a bit grainy depending on the type of snow.

I am not sure I want to know that much more about the technique...

Cheers,
Bernars
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: B-Ark on September 23, 2014, 06:02:04 am
I'm afraid I can't buy into either of these formats until they are fully supported by Lightroom.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Ken Bennett on September 23, 2014, 06:59:18 am
:))
You might need to consider the archival properties of your medium.

The ephemeral quality of the medium greatly increases the value of the artwork.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: Go Go on September 23, 2014, 09:59:19 am
Drawing in the dirt with a stick , of course!

That whole making bubbles with spit thing is a closed system!

Best LuLa thread ever!
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: David Eichler on September 26, 2014, 03:35:20 am
I think both are overrated and insufficient for the needs of perfectionists such as myself.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: ced on September 26, 2014, 04:30:39 am
Even when dirt was available some prefer dipping their sticks in spit (more spit bigger bubbles) to give hot air balloon size bubbles.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: MrSmith on September 26, 2014, 06:41:44 am
i like to draw pics of cats and sunsets and occasionally my beautiful grandkids, i’m thinking of upgrading to a german made slow-grown hardwood stick that’s been hand turned by black forest dwelling artisans, i don't think the nordic pine sticks have that special something i see on 800x500 images on StikPix. it’s a big investment now i’m retired from my legal practice so i’m wondering if there are any other users out there who have made the jump? and if they have any regrets?
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: JohnBrew on September 26, 2014, 07:38:52 am
A perpetually dry mouth has limited me to artisan sticks and colored sand.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: KAHA on September 26, 2014, 09:52:55 am
i’m thinking of upgrading to a german made slow-grown hardwood stick that’s been hand turned by black forest dwelling artisans, i don't think the nordic pine sticks have that special something i see on 800x500 images on StikPix. it’s a big investment now i’m retired from my legal practice so i’m wondering if there are any other users out there who have made the jump? and if they have any regrets?

I hear a certain german icon is carving out a new 'MFP' Mittelformat plank (nearly 3 times the size of a regular stick) 'MFP' planks are sustainably grown and sourced from the black forest in Baden-Württemberg. This select hand turned artisan lumber will be named the new 'Holz über alles' typ 009. After much Schwarzbier und pilsener physicists can now confirm that the neue Mittelformat combined with the impeccable image acuity of their optics one can actually view the finite particle matter within bubble clusters regardless of spit consistency or vesicle density. I believe an official announcement will be made at Oktoberfest München 2015 ;)   
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: B-Ark on September 26, 2014, 11:13:25 am
How is the focal length of the stick determined - the longer the stick, the longer the focal length?
And what about aperture - do the normal rules of DOF apply?
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 26, 2014, 11:29:05 am
Hi,

Now that we have sorted out that stick and "Holz" stuff, could we discuss the optimal choice of dirt for the demanding artist?

Best regards
Erik

I hear a certain german icon is carving out a new 'MFP' Mittelformat plank (nearly 3 times the size of a regular stick) 'MFP' planks are sustainably grown and sourced from the black forest in Baden-Württemberg. This select hand turned artisan lumber will be named the new 'Holz über alles' typ 009. After much Schwarzbier und pilsener physicists can now confirm that the neue Mittelformat combined with the impeccable image acuity of their optics one can actually view the finite particle matter within bubble clusters regardless of spit consistency or vesicle density. I believe an official announcement will be made at Oktoberfest München 2015 ;)   
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: JohnBrew on September 26, 2014, 11:37:22 am
How is the focal length of the stick determined - the longer the stick, the longer the focal length?
And what about aperture - do the normal rules of DOF apply?

It's the rule of the thumb.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: John Hollenberg on September 26, 2014, 12:48:16 pm
A highly placed source just confirmed for me that one of the major manufacturers is working on a hybrid system combining both dirt and spit.  They are claiming a huge increase in dynamic range, with nuanced shadows in the dirt and airy highlights in the spit.  The major drawback of the system is that they haven't figured out a way to keep the lenses completely free of dirt and spit, thus limiting resolution.  However, they are close to solving the problem with a proprietary automatic lens cleaning system code named "Windex", which will be available as an option for professionals/advanced amateurs seeking the very highest resolution captures.
Title: Re: Why I chose drawing in the dirt with a stick over making bubbles with my spit...
Post by: KAHA on September 26, 2014, 06:15:19 pm
Hi,

Now that we have sorted out that stick and "Holz" stuff, could we discuss the optimal choice of dirt for the demanding artist?

Best regards
Erik


One must remember that it's not really the dirt that appropriates dynamic range or defines image perspicacity but rather the 'Mittelformat Plank' that is able to capture and advocate fine grained soil acuity from sand or dirt clusters. It is the immaculacy or purity of the carefully crafted and irreproachable german engineered 'Baden-Württemberg Holz' in comparison for example to the commercially grown and unsustainable harvesting methods of the dare I say, 'slightly inferior' japanese grown bamboo sticks (no offence intended as I use a Arashiyama bamboo shoot when I want to draw in the dirt quickly and conveniently due to the ergonomics and size of the smaller pliable stick)

I guess at the end of the day as 'BC' has mentioned before, the best stick is the one you have in hand when you have some amazing dirt in front of you, it's your unique visual narrative or DNA that will leave its mark in the canvas or soil of mother earth long after the wood or bamboo sticks have decayed and faded away that really matters :D