Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Tony Jay on September 15, 2014, 08:29:29 am

Title: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Tony Jay on September 15, 2014, 08:29:29 am
For those who are interested.

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: barryfitzgerald on September 15, 2014, 09:02:05 am
Specs are in line with what you would expect for an updated model
I got a pre order email today and the price is £1599, whilst I didn't expect it to be cheap (I thought about £1100 odd) the initial price seems excessive for an APS-C camera. APS-C still has a place and a market, but I don't think that price is going to fly for long.

Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: armand on September 15, 2014, 09:07:49 am
I have no dog in this fight but specs wise the new Samsung NX-1 seems quite competitive despite being a mirrorless. No really long lenses though.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 15, 2014, 09:23:16 am
Yawn.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 15, 2014, 10:30:48 am
I have no dog in this fight but specs wise the new Samsung NX-1 seems quite competitive despite being a mirrorless. No really long lenses though.


Not so: 500 mm (http://www.beachcamera.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=E8RO500P&ref=bizrate&omid=105&utm_source=Bizrate&utm_medium=CSE&utm_item=E8RO500P&CAWELAID=230006090000019564&gclid=CjwKEAjwnNqgBRDdgOitrZPj6yYSJACM86tD5oBdm6hi9GjNfC9CfNtegAXRL78heMcuvA4h3gZ1OhoC95vw_wcB)

Not sure how good it is, though.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 15, 2014, 10:37:37 am
With a $116 price tag, I highly-doubt this is a suitable substitute for a 7D II + 500L combo, but to each his own (http://www.macrophotopro.com/images/smilies/sarasticlaugh.gif)
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Keith Reeder on September 15, 2014, 03:54:04 pm
Yawn.

Too much camera for you, Slobodan?

Seriously: if you've got nothing useful to say - and clearly, you don't - we'll happily get by without your pithy "contributions"...
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Keith Reeder on September 15, 2014, 03:58:51 pm
Specs are in line with what you would expect for an updated model
I got a pre order email today and the price is £1599, whilst I didn't expect it to be cheap (I thought about £1100 odd) the initial price seems excessive for an APS-C camera. APS-C still has a place and a market, but I don't think that price is going to fly for long.

I expected it to be closer to £2000 at launch, Barry - at "only" £1600 (a price which will drop soon enough), it's a positive steal for what the specs suggest it's capable of.

I'm seriously tempted. I was an early adopter of the 7D (which cost £1300, IIRC) and this is much, much more camera than the 7D.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 15, 2014, 04:02:14 pm
Keith, that was just a polite way of expressing my disgust with a sad demise of the once-great brand, whose loyal user I've been the last 40 years.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 15, 2014, 04:18:33 pm
Keith, that was just a polite way of expressing my disgust with a sad demise of the once-great brand, whose loyal user I've been the last 40 years.


Good sir, while I too would have preferred news about the new camera having "the best sensor in the universe," you have to admit that you're still basically getting better specs that the 1Dx and the D4 for $1800.

It may not produce a better single image blown-up on a monitor, when compared to the D810, but then neither does Nikon's own D4 ( which is twice-as-expensive).

Surely, you must admit that, in overall usefulness, it's a pretty sweet package for the price.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 15, 2014, 04:32:18 pm
It is already up on B & H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1081808-REG/canon_9128b002_eos_7d_mark_ii.html), and they're lauding its "enhanced low-light sensitivity" ... so it will be interesting to see some actual reviews, which I am sure will be forthcoming over the ensuing weeks.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: bcooter on September 15, 2014, 04:49:33 pm
Keith, that was just a polite way of expressing my disgust with a sad demise of the once-great brand, whose loyal user I've been the last 40 years.

Canon takes a lot of heat, I guess because they haven't produced a gazillion megapixel camera, though in day in day out, make a living commerce, I can leave the multiple camera cases of REDs, Nikons, Leicas, Contax, Mirrorless 43, grab the Canon case of a 70d, 5d2 and 1dx and shoot anything I've every done.

I love Canon's lenses, especially the stabilized ones, I find the whole system intuitive and robust and except on one instance had incredible service around the world.

We "crashed" a 1d3 in Hong Kong two years ago and they even replaced the sensor in 5 hours.   To me that's pretty amazing.

Personally I think the 7d is less than I expected, because the 70d is so good for video and stills.  I had hoped for a pro version of the 70d with an articulating screen, in and out headphone jacks, (they have the jacks), better sound preamps and a few more 2.8 constant stabilized lenses.

Anyway, I no fanboy of any system, sometimes think of my Canons as much as tools as anything to get attached to, but they work and work and work.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 15, 2014, 07:09:19 pm
Sounds like a nice addition very focused on wildlife shooters.

Probably the best APS-C camera to date.

The Samsung NX may be a strong contender though.

As of now Nikon is definitely out of the APS-C picture for serious shooters. The only smart move would be to release a D400 that would be EVF only and go with 1 series type technologies while keeping the resolution no higher than 24mp.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: barryfitzgerald on September 15, 2014, 07:23:17 pm
I expected it to be closer to £2000 at launch, Barry - at "only" £1600 (a price which will drop soon enough), it's a positive steal for what the specs suggest it's capable of.

I'm seriously tempted. I was an early adopter of the 7D (which cost £1300, IIRC) and this is much, much more camera than the 7D.

Depends what you want really if it's pro level APS-C that's a small ish market bar wildlife/action shooters good to see a product turn up (D300 users have probably long since given up the ghost on that getting updated) It's about in line with what you'd expect years go by and things get better, more AF points, the on sensor AF nice buffer size. I wouldn't say it's astonishing in what it adds, merely expected considering the age of the Mk I 7d. I can see a market for APS-C semi pro level, above that honestly most would go FF at that price point. Maybe the street price will be a bit more appealing (-£300 odd)
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: NancyP on September 15, 2014, 08:45:19 pm
I think that the wildlife/sports amateur segment is larger than the pros realize. This sounds like a pretty good camera to me - mini-1DX AF/burst speed, good build quality and weatherproofing, decent if not stellar IQ,  plenty of pixels on the bird (high pixel density), will make the most of the budget long lenses eg my beloved EF 400 f/5.6L.

Sure, if I could get a clean used 500 f/4 L IS v.I for $1,800.00, that would be a big boost for my birding shots, but that lens is still in the $5,000.00 range. I suspect that I will get more bang for my buck in switching from a 60D to a 7D2 (keeping my 400 f/5.6L) than in any other investment of under $2,000.00.

That said, my landscape shooting is done with a 6D (lower light) and Sigma DP2 Merrill.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 15, 2014, 10:13:52 pm
I think that the wildlife/sports amateur segment is larger than the pros realize. This sounds like a pretty good camera to me - mini-1DX AF/burst speed, good build quality and weatherproofing, decent if not stellar IQ,  plenty of pixels on the bird (high pixel density), will make the most of the budget long lenses eg my beloved EF 400 f/5.6L.


I would say there are BY FAR more people into wildlife/sports photography than there are dedicated, highly-demanding "pro landscape photographers" ... and by seven hundred country miles ...

Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 15, 2014, 10:18:20 pm
The Samsung NX may be a strong contender though.

Not sure if it's as robust as the 7D II, but if someone comes along and makes a Canon-lens-friendly adapter for it, might be quite tempting indeed!
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 16, 2014, 03:12:16 am
Not sure if it's as robust as the 7D II, but if someone comes along and makes a Canon-lens-friendly adapter for it, might be quite tempting indeed!

This body being about speed, I doubt there would be much value in using Canon lenses on it because the AF is likely to be much slower compared to native lenses.

The question is more whether your competitors using a NX1 next to you at the same venue will get more keepers that you or not using their Samsung lenses. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: barryfitzgerald on September 16, 2014, 05:33:25 am

I would say there are BY FAR more people into wildlife/sports photography than there are dedicated, highly-demanding "pro landscape photographers" ... and by seven hundred country miles ...



Not everyone using APS-C is just a landscape photographer there are other areas of use weddings/portraits. Whilst many are full frame not all are by any means.
In either case the 70d might be a better bet it doesn't have the pro build, but it's a decent semi pro level body

Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 16, 2014, 10:15:50 am
Not everyone using APS-C is just a landscape photographer there are other areas of use weddings/portraits. Whilst many are full frame not all are by any means.
In either case the 70d might be a better bet it doesn't have the pro build, but it's a decent semi pro level body


Nah, the 70D doesn't have 100% viewfinder coverage, which is a deal-breaker right there.

I mean, the 7D II is basically a high-performance version that does everything better.

I can live without wi-fi.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Keith Reeder on September 16, 2014, 01:45:47 pm
There was nothing polite about it, Slobodan.

Canon isn't in the business of making you your perfect camera, and besides, it should be patently obvious to everyone that the intended audience for this camera is sport and wildlife photographers, not you.

Your patronising dismissal of this camera is a patronising dismissal of these entire genres, and those of us who do shoot in them.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 16, 2014, 01:48:37 pm
... Your patronising dismissal of this camera is a patronising dismissal of these entire genres, and those of us who do shoot in them.

And especially you.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: mahleu on September 16, 2014, 03:20:34 pm
It was 5 years between the 7D and 7DII, that means that the original was still selling well enough to not need a replacement rushed out. The 7D is massively popular among wildlife, sports and aircraft shooters (both pro and amateur). I expect the mkII will sell very well.

Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: peterottaway on September 16, 2014, 10:15:44 pm
I am not trying to get into a flame war with those inclined to Canon it's just you can buy a Sony A77 Mark 2 for $1100 rather than $1800. OK there are those that insist that they need a certain lens that only Canon can provide, but I can't but feel that you are (again) for a ride financially.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: rgs on September 16, 2014, 11:02:45 pm
I am not trying to get into a flame war with those inclined to Canon it's just you can buy a Sony A77 Mark 2 for $1100 rather than $1800. OK there are those that insist that they need a certain lens that only Canon can provide, but I can't but feel that you are (again) for a ride financially.

Well, each to his own. Our choices may be more complex than just what you consider to be the better sensor. We all have different working methods, different favored subjects, different financial constraints and many other variables. We may also have different subjective preferences that are hard to quantify. Maybe we just like the way Canon images look or prefer the feel and control layout of Canon. Some of us are more interested in the gear and want the best stuff (objectively) that we can afford. Others don't care too much as long as it produces images that we like. Some of us even do things to an image file to, in my opinion, degrade it in order to achieve an older or unique look.

Your post vaguely reminds me of those folk who love their MAC and think there must be something wrong with others who don't want submit to Apple's form of cybertyranny and if they would just try it they would see the light.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Ken Bennett on September 17, 2014, 07:38:36 am
I am not trying to get into a flame war with those inclined to Canon it's just you can buy a Sony A77 Mark 2 for $1100 rather than $1800. OK there are those that insist that they need a certain lens that only Canon can provide, but I can't but feel that you are (again) for a ride financially.

It's not "lenses that only Canon can provide," it's a gazillion dollars in lenses, speedlighting systems, and multiple bodies that I already own. Worse, for me, it's what my employer already owns -- getting a new camera through the budget cycle is relatively simple, but buying an entirely new system from scratch would be asking a bit much.

I'll be interested to handle the 7D Mark II and see some images from it. My 1D Mark IV bodies are getting kind of old, with a lot of shutter cycles. My new 5D mark III is terrific, and if the new 7D is close to an APS-C version of that camera, I think they would complement each other well. I am no longer shooting sports or news full time, so I don't really need the 1Dx, but the speed and AF is useful when I do get that sort of assignment, and I can get a pair of 7D Mark II for about half what a single 1Dx will cost.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: kodachrome on September 17, 2014, 10:53:43 am
Keith, that was just a polite way of expressing my disgust with a sad demise of the once-great brand, whose loyal user I've been the last 40 years.

I'm not happy that it took Canon 5 years to upgrade the 7D, but I don't understand the negative comments about the MKII. As an action photographer, I'm delighted with the new focusing system, which seems identical to me to the 1DX, including iTR AF. Dual processors will ensure fast focusing, or should. Hopefully it will produce sharp images at ISOs higher than 400, which the 7D cannot do. The crop factor is very important for nature photography.

So what is that you, and the many others, are disappointed with? I just don't understand it.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: allegretto on September 17, 2014, 11:57:42 am

So what is that you, and the many others, are disappointed with? I just don't understand it.


Just hang around for a while... you'll get it.

for some it's more important to find out what's "wrong" instead of what's "right".

Some camera-folks spend a great deal of time with spec-sheets and hypothetical situations in order to come to their conclusions. It would seem as though the joy of actual images just isn't there and it's all about comparing gear, not really using it.

Of course, some gear isn't the best for some applications, but manufacturers recognize this and it's why they make different models. But the beat goes on...
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: allegretto on September 17, 2014, 11:59:35 am

Your post vaguely reminds me of those folk who love their MAC and think there must be something wrong with others who don't want submit to Apple's form of cybertyranny and if they would just try it they would see the light.

I've tried it, several times... and always came back to Mac cuz I don't like to waste time playing with my tools.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: rgs on September 17, 2014, 12:40:48 pm
Just hang around for a while... you'll get it.

for some it's more important to find out what's "wrong" instead of what's "right".

Some camera-folks spend a great deal of time with spec-sheets and hypothetical situations in order to come to their conclusions. It would seem as though the joy of actual images just isn't there and it's all about comparing gear, not really using it.

Of course, some gear isn't the best for some applications, but manufacturers recognize this and it's why they make different models. But the beat goes on...

"Some people don't have much food on their table, but they got a lot of forks and knives and they gotta cut somethin'Bob Dylan, 1961
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: jjj on September 17, 2014, 12:53:09 pm
There was nothing polite about it, Slobodan.

Canon isn't in the business of making you your perfect camera, and besides, it should be patently obvious to everyone that the intended audience for this camera is sport and wildlife photographers, not you.

Your patronising dismissal of this camera is a patronising dismissal of these entire genres, and those of us who do shoot in them.
I suggest hiding his posts. I do as I got fed up with his constant nasty, unpleasant posts ,along with personal attacks on people. I'm amazed he's still on here as people have been ejected for far less.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: jjj on September 17, 2014, 12:57:28 pm
I am not trying to get into a flame war with those inclined to Canon it's just you can buy a Sony A77 Mark 2 for $1100 rather than $1800. OK there are those that insist that they need a certain lens that only Canon can provide, but I can't but feel that you are (again) for a ride financially.
The camera body may be the cheap part of a photography setup, so not a big deal. Not to mention that judging solely on price is not wise purchasing thinking.
And yes Sony don't even make a lot of the the lenses Canon do, so not even worth getting if they the Sony only costs $100 if you need those lenses.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: kodachrome on September 17, 2014, 02:38:57 pm
Just hang around for a while... you'll get it.

for some it's more important to find out what's "wrong" instead of what's "right".

Some camera-folks spend a great deal of time with spec-sheets and hypothetical situations in order to come to their conclusions. It would seem as though the joy of actual images just isn't there and it's all about comparing gear, not really using it.

Of course, some gear isn't the best for some applications, but manufacturers recognize this and it's why they make different models. But the beat goes on...

So I'm still waiting to hear what is wrong about the MKII, instead of your pontificating.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: kodachrome on September 17, 2014, 02:44:06 pm
"Some people don't have much food on their table, but they got a lot of forks and knives and they gotta cut somethin'Bob Dylan, 1961


 :D
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: NancyP on September 17, 2014, 03:03:35 pm
Ah, there is always a bit a whining about every tech introduction. Yawn.

Samsung may end up with having a good camera, but the system is not developed yet. I am choosing to shoot with a soon-to-be-available (2 months) camera that accommodates existing supertelephoto lenses of known high optical quality and AF performance.

It is nice to have choices. This 7D2 is a fine choice for focal-length-limited action stills (wildlife, birds, sports) - I am not qualified to comment on video capabilities because I don't shoot video. And landscape / architecture  / commercial / fashion / wedding / other genre photographers have other choices better optimized to their needs.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: NancyP on September 17, 2014, 03:16:44 pm
BTW, I have not had a camera using CF card before - anyone have recommendations for CF card brand, reader brand? Reader must be back-compatible with USB 2.0 or Firewire 800. OK, maybe I should upgrade the computer instead...
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 17, 2014, 03:30:33 pm
Hi,

No revolution but evolution, I guess…

I am pretty sure that Canon cameras do a pretty good job, but it is also quite obvious that they are lagging in resolution and low ISO noise/DR. They need to address those issues sooner or later.

Best regards
Erik
 


Keith, that was just a polite way of expressing my disgust with a sad demise of the once-great brand, whose loyal user I've been the last 40 years.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: jjj on September 17, 2014, 03:35:19 pm
BTW, I have not had a camera using CF card before - anyone have recommendations for CF card brand, reader brand? Reader must be back-compatible with USB 2.0 or Firewire 800. OK, maybe I should upgrade the computer instead...
usb 3 is backwards compatible with usb 2, but 2 is too slow to bother with. There's a good FW reader on Amazon UK the Delock Card Reader FireWire, can't copy direct link from stupid browser sorry.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Rory on September 17, 2014, 03:46:38 pm
BTW, I have not had a camera using CF card before - anyone have recommendations for CF card brand, reader brand? Reader must be back-compatible with USB 2.0 or Firewire 800.

I have had good luck with the Lexar Professional USB 3.0 Dual-Slot Reader Nancy.  Also, if the 7DII is like the 5DIII the buffer clears faster with CF cards compared to similar spec SD cards, which was a bit of a surprise to me.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: NancyP on September 17, 2014, 06:07:26 pm
I had heard that CF cards clear buffer faster on 5D3, probably due to higher speed of fastest UDMA7 card (write speed of 150 MB/sec, vs fast SD write speed of 95 MB/sec).  Thanks for comments on reader - Yep, I know I will be sticking a USB 3.0 reader onto a USB 2.0 computer and watching the grass grow...That's the other upgrade I will be looking at in the next year or so, a computer. Typically I max out the specs on a computer and then use it for 5 years until it becomes too-slow-for-evolving-code-bloat-ware, then replace. The MacBookPro is a superannuated mid-2010 model with only dual-core processors and an aging graphics card, etc.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Rory on September 17, 2014, 06:44:37 pm
Hey, if your MBP is still running and isn't broken why fix it.  You aren't going to lose a shooting opportunity waiting for your card to upload to your computer :)
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: jjj on September 17, 2014, 07:33:39 pm
Hey, if your MBP is still running and isn't broken why fix it.  You aren't going to lose a shooting opportunity waiting for your card to upload to your computer :)
Have you forgotten how sloooooow USB 2 can be to transfer?   ;)
That's why I suggested the Delock FW reader, it's much quicker than USB2 on my MBP.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 17, 2014, 09:59:27 pm
I suggest hiding his posts. I do as I got fed up with his constant nasty, unpleasant posts ,along with personal attacks on people. I'm amazed he's still on here as people have been ejected for far less.

There was a guy here in Illinois who got jailed for a few days for yawning in court (no, seriously!). I bet you'd like to see me jailed for my "yawn" comment too. ;)

By the way, for those who see a single-word comment "yawn" as a "personal attack," I only have another single-word comment: "wow!"
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 17, 2014, 10:02:55 pm
... for some it's more important to find out what's "wrong" instead of what's "right".

Some camera-folks spend a great deal of time with spec-sheets and hypothetical situations in order to come to their conclusions. It would seem as though the joy of actual images just isn't there and it's all about comparing gear, not really using it...

Hi Herman,

Since you replied to a question directed to me, are you referring to me for the above?
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 17, 2014, 10:18:41 pm
So I'm still waiting to hear what is wrong about the MKII...

Nice handle, btw, my favorite film from the years gone by.

I never said there is something wrong with MKII. I said that Canon Photokina announcements are uninspiring, long-time overdue (five years!), me-too, catching-up, too-little-too-late, and thus expected, and thus yawn-inducing. It is like buying a 2015 car model and being excited it has a built-in GPS (or ABS, or air-bags, or..).

Canon has become complacent, treating its loyal customer base as hostages (for our investment in lenses, flashes, etc.), taking us for granted. I feel like as if they are pissing on us, and it will work for them as long as there are enough people that will say it is raining gold.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: allegretto on September 17, 2014, 10:42:23 pm
So I'm still waiting to hear what is wrong about the MKII, instead of your pontificating.

Hey, hang on. You're not understanding me.

I'm not "pontificating" at all. Merely pointing out the way some approach evaluation of gear

Lighten up Francis. I might even get one as a compliment to my 6D. Lord knows I have the EF glass

Do you always try to bring negativity to a new situation? Or is this special?
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: allegretto on September 17, 2014, 10:46:49 pm
Hi Herman,

Since you replied to a question directed to me, are you referring to me for the above?

Hell no. I get you loud and clear.

I much prefer taking pictures to going on about things I've never used

You're all good in my book

Is there something in the water here…? Geez, I'm just a photo geek, don't take my observations too seriously. Most folks know quite well when I am needling them, I'm not smart enough to be subtle.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: kodachrome on September 17, 2014, 10:52:23 pm
Nice handle, btw, my favorite film from the years gone by.

I never said there is something wrong with MKII. I said that Canon Photokina announcements are uninspiring, long-time overdue (five years!), me-too, catching-up, too-little-too-late, and thus expected, and thus yawn-inducing. It is like buying a 2015 car model and being excited it has a built-in GPS (or ABS, or air-bags, or..).

Canon has become complacent, treating its loyal customer base as hostages (for our investment in lenses, flashes, etc.), taking us for granted. I feel like as if they are pissing on us, and it will work for them as long as there are enough people that will say it is raining gold.

I agree with much of what you said, particularly regarding Canon's complacency and LONG delay in upgrading. I can't help but wonder if Canon wasn't thinking about discontinuing the line, as Nikon did with the D300. However, I really like the improvements in AF and hopefully in lower noise. In the end we have to try the camera when it's released. Or not.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: spidermike on September 18, 2014, 07:45:09 am
I think too many people expect a new model to be revolutionary with heaps of new gadgets and specifications. I think the problem for the camera companies have hit a plateau with so many parts of their technology that maybe Canon should be aplauded for only updating the 7D when there were genuine significant upgrades rather than piffling tweaks. And let's face it, the 7D is their premium camera for shooting action with APS-C sensor - if you want studio or landscape there are the 60D/70D as well as the 6D. So looking at the 7DII as a sports/action camera, the areas for developments (for me) are:

AF - bringing the 1Dx AF system to a model costing less than half the 1Dx is quite something. The only question is have they crippled some of the functionality (out of choice or necessity)?
Sensor resolution - not a massive revolution but then again no manufacturer has had signifcant improvements in sensor performance in the last 3-4 years
Sensor noise - this was one signifcant weakness on the 7D for me and where, after release, it quickly got left behind. If they have improved the noise to even approaching the 5DII I will be one happy bunny

Beyond that I do not see many other features that would make me sit up and eager to upgrade, and without those (especially the AF) I may as well by the much cheaper 70D.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Ajoy Roy on September 18, 2014, 08:38:51 am
I had heard that CF cards clear buffer faster on 5D3, probably due to higher speed of fastest UDMA7 card (write speed of 150 MB/sec, vs fast SD write speed of 95 MB/sec).  Thanks for comments on reader - Yep, I know I will be sticking a USB 3.0 reader onto a USB 2.0 computer and watching the grass grow...That's the other upgrade I will be looking at in the next year or so, a computer. Typically I max out the specs on a computer and then use it for 5 years until it becomes too-slow-for-evolving-code-bloat-ware, then replace. The MacBookPro is a superannuated mid-2010 model with only dual-core processors and an aging graphics card, etc.
I have no idea of Macs, but with my 7 year old desktop, I just installed a USB3 card. It works perfectly.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Ajoy Roy on September 18, 2014, 08:45:09 am
For those who need fast burst speed, but no need to blow up the image to 36 inches or more, a 20MP, 10fps camera is an excellent choice. This is what Nikon users of D300 have been hankering for since ages.

There is no doubt that Canon's main USP is their lenses and Professional Services - way ahead of competition. There are a lot of bodies with high sensor resolution - 36MP in 35mm and upto 80MP in MF, but very few with 10fps or more in burst rate, and that is the target audience for Canon.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: allegretto on September 18, 2014, 09:44:53 am
For those who need fast burst speed, but no need to blow up the image to 36 inches or more, a 20MP, 10fps camera is an excellent choice. This is what Nikon users of D300 have been hankering for since ages.



Couple of thoughts if I understand

20MPx in APC is equivalent to what density in FF…?

APC already is a crop, no? Not sure why you feel you "lose" out in printing size to a similar scene and lens with this combo vs. FF

I must be missing something so please help...
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Ajoy Roy on September 18, 2014, 10:03:33 am
Couple of thoughts if I understand

20MPx in APC is equivalent to what density in FF…?

APC already is a crop, no? Not sure why you feel you "lose" out in printing size to a similar scene and lens with this combo vs. FF

I must be missing something so please help...
24MP on an DX sensor is equal to about 54MP on an FF sensor.

For printing it is not the sensor surface area, it is the number of pixels. If you print at 250 dpi, then the Nikon 24MP sensor, which is 6000x4000 will result in a print of 24x16 inches. A 20MP sensor will be slightly smaller. Now 36MP (7360x4912) will ramp up to 30x20 inches approximately, while an 80MP (10328x7760) 41x31 inches. Of course if thing that a lower resolution, say 150DPI is sufficient then your prints will be larger.

Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: allegretto on September 18, 2014, 10:41:41 am
24MP on an DX sensor is equal to about 54MP on an FF sensor.

For printing it is not the sensor surface area, it is the number of pixels. If you print at 250 dpi, then the Nikon 24MP sensor, which is 6000x4000 will result in a print of 24x16 inches. A 20MP sensor will be slightly smaller. Now 36MP (7360x4912) will ramp up to 30x20 inches approximately, while an 80MP (10328x7760) 41x31 inches. Of course if thing that a lower resolution, say 150DPI is sufficient then your prints will be larger.



Thanks for the reasoned reply, that seems clear. however, isn't APC a "crop" from the start? Assuming the same distance and lens if you get the whole subject you want isn't it roughly equivalent to getting the FF and then cropping it?
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Ajoy Roy on September 18, 2014, 10:47:16 am
Thanks for the reasoned reply, that seems clear. however, isn't APC a "crop" from the start? Assuming the same distance and lens if you get the whole subject you want isn't it roughly equivalent to getting the FF and then cropping it?
You are right. The 24x36mm frame of 35mm film is cropped to 24x16mm, but with higher density of pixels, you get more resolution. In case your subject is smaller than the cropped sensor; as in wildlife and macro; you are better off with a cropped sensor as compared to a full frame sensor of the same mega pixels. This is what makes cropped sensor the idol of wild life, you just get more resolution (or as some would say magnification) from you long lenses.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: jjj on September 18, 2014, 10:59:18 am
I have no idea of Macs, but with my 7 year old desktop, I just installed a USB3 card. It works perfectly.
They are available but can be expensive. Here's a much cheaper solution (http://endlessgeek.com/2014/04/add-usb-3-to-a-mac-pro/).
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Rory on September 18, 2014, 11:58:32 am

20MPx in APC is equivalent to what density in FF…?


70D sensor dimensions: 22.5 x 15mm = 337.5 square mm.
Full frame dimensions:   36    x 24mm = 864    square mm.

864 / 337.5 = 2.56, which is the increase in area of full frame over the 70D sensor.

The crop factor is lineal, so the square root of 2.56 = 1.6.

2.56 * 20.2MP = 51.7MP equivalent full frame.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 18, 2014, 12:20:09 pm
For those who need fast burst speed, but no need to blow up the image to 36 inches or more, a 20MP, 10fps camera is an excellent choice. This is what Nikon users of D300 have been hankering for since ages.

There is no doubt that Canon's main USP is their lenses and Professional Services - way ahead of competition. There are a lot of bodies with high sensor resolution - 36MP in 35mm and upto 80MP in MF, but very few with 10fps or more in burst rate, and that is the target audience for Canon.


Exactly. It's funny, because back when both were in the sensor "size" war, everyone was crying (bitching, moaning) about "full functionality" over sensor size.

Now everyone is complaining about "single image resolution/DR," as if that is the only consideration for all photographers.

Now that Canon has produced a camera that is more focused on full-functionality (and less on "the best sensor") everyone is crying (bitching, moaning) about the sensor  ;D

The 7D II may not have the best single-image production capability of any camera, but it has the, broadest "high level" capabilities of any ASP-C camera, with the availability of the most lens choices. It rivals (and in some cases exceeds) full-frame sports cameras for 1/4 the cost.

That makes it a pretty useful tool for a broad scope of users.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 18, 2014, 12:28:11 pm
... back when both were in the sensor "size" war, everyone was crying (bitching, moaning) about "full functionality" over sensor size.

Jack, that was THEN, and then it made a perfect sense, because bigger sensor (i.e., more pixels) meant simply worse noise and dynamic range. After that, Nikon/Sony came up with a bigger AND better sensor, including pixels, noise and dynamic range.

In other words, today we are not talking about the same "sensor size" as then.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 18, 2014, 12:31:48 pm
Jack, that was THEN, and then it made a perfect sense, because bigger sensor (i.e., more pixels) meant simply worse noise and dynamic range. After that, Nikon/Sony came up with a bigger AND better sensor, including pixels, noise and dynamic range.

In other words, today we are not talking about the same "sensor size" as then.


I understand, and am sympathetic enough to consider switching to Nikon myself.

Still, from (say) a sports photographer's perspective, the resolution/DR of the D810 is not going to mean as much as the overall capabilities of the 7D II.

In other words, they just need "a clear, good shot" of capturing the action, they don't necessarily need to capture every possible color/tonality at the highest resolution possible.

As a macro shooter, I *do* want the ultimate clarity/DR, but many won't really need what the D810 offers as much as what the 7D II offers.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 18, 2014, 12:44:24 pm
Correct, Jack. Nobody is arguing there should be just one camera and that it should be Nikon D810-like. Horses for courses. What I and others are arguing, however, is that Canon should have a model in their range, in addition to 7DII etc., that addresses the needs for higher megapixels and higher dynamic range.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 18, 2014, 12:45:38 pm
Correct, Jack. Nobody is arguing there should be just one camera and that it should be Nikon D810-like. Horses for courses. What I and others are arguing, however, is that Canon should have a model in their range, in addition to 7DII etc., that addresses the needs for higher megapixels and higher dynamic range.

Agreed. And, on another thread on this forum, there was talk about this possibility in October.

Hopefully, this proves to be more than talk and actually happens.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: NancyP on September 18, 2014, 12:50:06 pm
Slobodan, different yawns for different folks.
If you plan on two cameras, one to shoot willdlife, one for landscape, the 7D2 is pretty exciting for the former use. If you don't bother with wildlife, well yes, the 7D2 is a yawn, and a good MF back is more exciting even than a Sony 36MP FF sensor.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 18, 2014, 01:17:04 pm
Slobodan, different yawns for different folks.
If you plan on two cameras, one to shoot willdlife, one for landscape, the 7D2 is pretty exciting for the former use. If you don't bother with wildlife, well yes, the 7D2 is a yawn, and a good MF back is more exciting even than a Sony 36MP FF sensor.

Nancy, that my "yawn" is interpreted as a dissing of 7DII specifically is a result of me posting it in this thread, which is nobody else's fault but mine, of course. However, as I explained later, my reaction was more about Canon's overall strategy, not this particular camera. I posted in this thread as it was the only thread at the moment about Canon and Photokina (which is telling in itself - no other exciting announcement from them worth writing home about, let alone starting a separate thread). I am sure 7DMII is a better camera than 7D and probably better than some of its competitors. After five years, it better be.

I've been with Canon the last 40 years (damn!) and currently have 20D, 40D and 60D. If I am to move up from 60D it better be significantly better, not just a few improvements. And better in the direction I am interested in, like megapixels and dynamic range. I also need articulated screen and wi-fi ( (o.k., nice to have, not a need, but when so many cameras these days have it, why not?). I can't afford medium format, so I see two possible ways forward for me: Olympus or Nikon (or both, if I could afford: Olympus for traveling light and spur-of-the-moment shots, and Nikon for planned trips).
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: allegretto on September 18, 2014, 01:26:11 pm
90% of my shots are families and children. yeah, i know, boring...

My 6D is damn good but this new one seems almost ideal. The only thing i'm thinking is that a may need wider than the 17-35 zoom that currently is my widest...

the 24-105mm will probably NEVER come off that camera
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 25, 2014, 11:59:21 am
Looks like the 7D II really is a better camera than the 1dx and D4 ... for $1,800

Canon EOS 7D II Twice as Good? (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/5500450435)
Interview with Canon's Chuck Westfall (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/5217237309)

Weather sealing "4x as good" as the original 7D ...
"Newly-developed" 20.2MP sensor ...
"More and better" AF points than any current offering ...
"Every one" of the 65 AF points is cross-type, unprecedented ...
"Actual external lever" to control AF Points/Zones" ... unprecedented ...
"More total control" of camera than any current offering ...

It is also reputed to have better noise reduction/low light capability than the previous iteration ... and the sensor is "better" than that of the 70D ... whatever that means.

All-in-all, perhaps not the one-shot wonder camera, but it looks like the more robust, overall more useful camera.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 25, 2014, 12:53:21 pm
Looks like the 7D II really is a better camera than the 1dx and D4 ... for $1,800...

This keeps popping up, as it is a big deal. It ain't. It would have been, had it been announced at the same time as those other cameras. Years later, it ain't a big deal anymore. When I bought my 46" TV, it was about $1,700. For that money today I can get a 70" one (!), with a load of additional features mine does not have.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 25, 2014, 02:21:47 pm
This keeps popping up, as it is a big deal. It ain't. It would have been, had it been announced at the same time as those other cameras. Years later, it ain't a big deal anymore.


Canon couldn't have sold a single 1Dx if they announced the 7DII concurrently years ago. What's more, they didn't have this sensor, nor the AF capability of this camera "back then."

The ability to get $7,000 worth of product for $1,800 is a big deal.

You can't even get what this camera has, at this price,  right now ... but you can do it in one more month.

This camera is a big deal. It's the definition of a BIG DEAL.

What other definition of a "big deal" do you need?



When I bought my 46" TV, it was about $1,700. For that money today I can get a 70" one (!), with a load of additional features mine does not have.

That is a big deal also ... the ability to get MORE awesome stuff for LESS money is the very definition of "big deal" ;D

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 25, 2014, 02:35:22 pm
Well, Jack, yes... in historical terms. It is a big deal that today's iPhone has more processing power than the first mainframes decades ago, costs a fraction and takes a fraction of the roomful of space the mainframe did. It is a big deal. And yet, it isn't a big deal that the next model of iPhone has better specs than the previous at the same (or lower) price, because it is expected. Technology marches on and generally produces better specs at lower price.

Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 25, 2014, 03:29:21 pm
Well, Jack, yes... in historical terms. It is a big deal that today's iPhone has more processing power than the first mainframes decades ago, costs a fraction and takes a fraction of the roomful of space the mainframe did. It is a big deal. And yet, it isn't a big deal that the next model of iPhone has better specs than the previous at the same (or lower) price, because it is expected. Technology marches on and generally produces better specs at lower price.

Slobo, the only 2 things the 7D II doesn't have is "the best sensor in the world" ... and wifi ...

But it does have an all-new sensor (that hasn't even been reviewed yet) ...

Further, it has a full combo of more solid construction, fine image quality, better shutter life, and greater lens compatibility than any other camera (under $4,000) ... and everything else about it (speed, functional controls, etc.) blows every other camera out of the water ... up to and including $6-$7,000 cameras.

For $1,799.

In real-world usage, overall it's the best camera value out there.

No one camera can do everything, but this one comes the closest, for the least money.

Watch and see.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 25, 2014, 06:30:05 pm
The odds you'll buy a 7DII are increasing to 99.99% Jack.

Your posts are litteraly droopling with want, its leaking from the screen.

The wait is going to be long till availability. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: uaiomex on September 25, 2014, 06:40:15 pm
In real world usage is a big deal. In the minds of digital photographers (Collective thinking) where 2 years late is "too late" is not a big deal. Proof is the almost universal consesnsus to declare this year Photokina, lame.
Actually the only company that broke new grounds was Samsung, imo.

Will they sell 7DII's? I'm sure they'll sell lots of them. Canon has been doing the right things for the last many decades. They deserve this success. Have they lost their mojo? It sure looks like they did.

Eduardo


Slobo, the only 2 things the 7D II doesn't have is "the best sensor in the world" ... and wifi ...

But it does have an all-new sensor (that hasn't even been reviewed yet) ...

Further, it has a full combo of more solid construction, fine image quality, better shutter life, and greater lens compatibility than any other camera (under $4,000) ... and everything else about it (speed, functional controls, etc.) blows every other camera out of the water ... up to and including $6-$7,000 cameras.

For $1,799.

In real-world usage, overall it's the best camera value out there.

No one camera can do everything, but this one comes the closest, for the least money.

Watch and see.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 25, 2014, 07:43:56 pm
In real world usage is a big deal.

Exactly. Therefore, having the most usable camera available, for the money, is huge.



In the minds of digital photographers (Collective thinking) where 2 years late is "too late" is not a big deal.

Nothing is late. You cannot get a camera like the 7D now, for less than $6,000. You cannot. So who in the world is "late?" ...

But in one month, you can. That is not "too late": it means the 7D II will be in a class by itself for under $2,000 in one month from now.

You would have to fork out $6,000 - $7,000 to get a comparable camera, and both the Canon 1Dx and Nikon D4 would be inferior over all at nearly 4x the price.



Actually the only company that broke new grounds was Samsung, imo.

Broke new ground? At what really? 14 fps?
Have you even compared images yet?

You want to talk about lame?
Built like a toy = lame.
No lenses = lame.
As an overall tool and system, the Samsung equivalent is a joke by comparison.



Will they sell 7DII's? I'm sure they'll sell lots of them. Canon has been doing the right things for the last many decades. They deserve this success.
Eduardo

Yes, back to the real world, Eduardo.

In the real world, the 7D II will prove to be the best overall camera and solutions for photographers under $2,000, and by 7 country miles.

And, yes again, they will sell a ton of them as a result, and there will be more outstanding nature/sports photos shot with this camera "in the real world," than by the Nikon ASP-Cs, the Samsung ASP-C, and the Sony-ASPCs put together. Watch.



Have they lost their mojo? It sure looks like they did.
Eduardo

I suggest you go to the optometrist then so you can see straight.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 25, 2014, 07:59:47 pm
Technology marches on and generally produces better specs at lower price.

Then why be disappointed when, in one month, a new product will come out that is better than current $7,000 flagship cameras, for 1/4 the price?

Nobody else is making a camera like that now. Nobody.

So what is "too late?"
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announce
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 25, 2014, 08:16:30 pm
Then why be disappointed when, in one month, a new product will come out that is better than current $7,000 flagship cameras, for 1/4 the price?

Nobody else is making a camera like that now. Nobody.

Except Samsung I guess. :)

Sorry Jack, but anyone looking objectively at the situation will realize that the specs of the NX1 are at least 1 generation ahead with the current pace of innovation at Canon. That could mean 5 long years by when we will have a NX3 doing a full sensor read out at 8k and 48mp stills with 15 stops DR. The only question being whether they will already have released their levitating camera or not.

I suggest you bookmark this post to be to come back to it so that we see who was right.

Granted, we still needs to see how the NX1 will perform. The scariest thing being that we mostly already know how the 7DII will perform...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 25, 2014, 08:37:20 pm
The odds you'll buy a 7DII are increasing to 99.99% Jack.

They are. The more I think about it, the more I don't want to give up this macro lens (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/183199-USA/Canon_2540A002_Macro_Photo_MP_E_65mm.html) by leaving Canon. I would have to buy a whole host of gadgetry from Nikon to get a 1-5x lens range, with nowhere near the flexibility or convenience of this lens.

The MP-E 65 mm is yet another specialty lens with which Nikon can't compete.



Your posts are litteraly droopling with want, its leaking from the screen.

Literally
Drooling
It's


The wait is going to be long till availability. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard, you're satisfied with your D810, right?
It takes beautiful images, don't you think?

Does it really bother you that, good as it is, it will NEVER take single imagery as well as the best MF cameras. Never.
Does it bother you to be "less than" in the sensor department?

I guess not. I guess you are okay with taking "less than" images, every time, because I guess you think your images are "good enough."
I guess you like the overall price point + versatility of your D810, so you are pleased with "good enough" in the sensor department to enjoy the overall versatility of your D810.

Well, guess what Bernard? Other people make similar choices as you, but with different cameras ;)

I think the images that come from the 7D II (as well as my own 7D) are "good enough" ... I think the overall versatility of the new 7D II will trump your D810 (as the versatility of your D810 overall trumps a Hassy).
And just as you know that, individually, the images from your D810 will come up a bit short compared to the Hassy, you are still comfortable with the trade-off, and people will still enjoy the images.

Now try to use your head to think real hard (outside your own little Nikon-centered viewpoint), and stop to consider the fact I shoot different subjects than you. Nikon simply does not have an answer for much of what I like to do. (Or a complicated, inconvenient answer with nowhere near the versatility.)

Therefore, like you, I don't care if some pixel-peeper wants to blow up my images and say they're not quite as good as a D810 (just as you don't care that this same thing can be said of your D810 and a MF image).

It's the versatility, Bernard, not just the single image.
It's the lens range, Bernard, that fits my photography, not just the sensor.

In the end, I will be tailoring my choices around my interests and needs, not yours, and not because of quibbling over the sensor either ... just as, ultimately, you have "settled" with your D810 sensor as well, in comparison to other higher-end sensors. Your D810 system fits your choices better overall.

My equipment purchases will fit mine.

I hope that's okay with you ;D

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 25, 2014, 08:43:23 pm
...
Literally
Drooling
It's
...

 ;D

Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: melchiorpavone on September 25, 2014, 08:47:22 pm
;D



Iz it to much two ask datt peepile spels rite and use krecht grammer?
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 25, 2014, 08:48:36 pm
Jack,

Not sure what Nikon has to do with the fact that the NX1 does deliver a lot more than the 7DII? I have also not commented on the suitability of the 7DII for your needs, only on your claim that the 7DII delivers an un-matched spec sheet.

You are the one looking at things from a brand centric standpoint, not me. I share your view that Nikon has nothing coming close to the 7DII for wildlife.

My view is that Samsung is destroying Nikon as much as Canon in terms of innovation and I have zero problem to admit it.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 25, 2014, 09:00:24 pm
;D


Actually, I disagree with your comical signs, Slobo.

If someone can't put their words together correctly, it's highly unlikely that they've put their thoughts together correctly either.

What I said above is 100% correct: Bernard needs to get over his obsession with sensors.

It is quite hypocritical of Bernard to speak only of the 7D II's sensor as if that's all there is to the camera.
It is the height of hypocrisy for him to speak about "the best" sensor, while he himself doesn't own it.
He needs to be fully-aware of this hypocrisy.
He needs to realize he will never take a single image as well with his D810 as he could have with a Hassy. Never.

Thus, in the end, Bernard should either go to MF "for the best sensor" ... or ... he should STFU about sensors and realize that other things are important also.

In fact, that is why the DSLR market is blooming, while the MF market is in peril, it's not all about the sensor.

There really is such a thing as "close enough" but with far more capabilities in other areas.

It's about the versatility, price points, and which overall system fits your particular needs, of which lens selection is perhaps the most critical consideration.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 25, 2014, 09:03:27 pm
Iz it to much two ask datt peepile spels rite and use krecht grammer?

Is it too much to ask that people exhibit a sense of decorum and proper forum etiquette, refrain from outlandish, patronizing and offensive put-downs? For some members (wink, wink), it apparently is ;)
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: melchiorpavone on September 25, 2014, 09:03:43 pm

Actually, I disagree with your comical signs, Slobo.

If someone can't put their words together correctly, it's highly unlikely that they've put their thoughts together correctly either.

What I said above is 100% correct: Bernard needs to get over his obsession with sensors.

It is quite hypocritical of Bernard to speak only of the 7D II's sensor as if that's all there is to the camera.
It is the height of hypocrisy for him to speak about "the best" sensor, while he himself doesn't own it.
He needs to be fully-aware of this hypocrisy.
He needs to realize he will never take a single image as well with his D810 as he could have with a Hassy. Never.

Thus, in the end, Bernard should either go to MF "for the best sensor" ... or ... he should STFU about sensors and realize that other things are important also.

In fact, that is why the DSLR market is blooming, while the MF market is in peril, it's not all about the sensor.

There really is such a thing as "close enough" but with far more capabilities in other areas.

It's about the versatility, price points, and which overall system fits your particular needs, of which lens selection is perhaps the most critical consideration.

Cheers,

I agree with you. Slobo really has no clue.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: melchiorpavone on September 25, 2014, 09:05:09 pm
Is it too much to ask that people exhibit a sense of decorum and proper forum etiquette, refrain from outlandish, patronizing and offensive put-downs? For some members (wink, wink), it apparently is ;)

As I mentioned before, almost all of your posts are mistaken. It gets tiring constantly having to correct you about every aspect of photography.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/marktwain109624.html
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 25, 2014, 09:07:22 pm

Actually, I disagree with your comical signs, Slobo.

If someone can't put their words together correctly, it's highly unlikely that they've put their thoughts together correctly either.
...

Many members of this forum are not native English speakers, Bernard and myself included. Correcting their grammar in a scolding fashion is simply poor taste, not gentleman-like. Coincidentally, Gentleman Jack is one of my favorites  ;)

P.S. Not to mention spelling mistakes that happen when typing fast
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: NancyP on September 25, 2014, 09:24:18 pm
I am tfypoimftc gtjhiu8 wotjh m y nmtoes. (translation: I am "typing this with my toes"). Hey, I didn't use "ALL CAPS"! More images, less crankiness, please.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 25, 2014, 09:27:50 pm
Jack,

You are really something man! ;)

That's a conversation btwn you are yourself. I haven't said anything you say I have said nor do I think that.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 25, 2014, 09:34:51 pm
If someone can't put their words together correctly, it's highly unlikely that they've put their thoughts together correctly either.

I guess you are not familiar with smartphones keyboards... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re:
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on September 26, 2014, 01:00:35 am
The D8xx have tested as the best performing sensors over at dxo. Better than the MF sensors. But now I guess it's a MF sensor in the lead, I haven't looked this year I think. It is coincidentally also made by Sony. (if my assumption is even accurate, hah).

It is a well known fact that the smaller sensors are way ahead with more advanced designs. The fastest development has been mobile lately. MF usually lagging far behind. They do make up for it in size tho.

Do we even know that the sensor in the 7d II is new? Specs similar to the 70d right? Maybe we should wait and see.

I don't think DSLR sales are up. And I do believe MF is growing still.

So basically I disagree with everything John has said.

That says nothing about the 7D mark II. I'm sure it's a fine upgrade for Canon shooters.
Title: Re:
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 26, 2014, 01:41:13 am
That says nothing about the 7D mark II. I'm sure it's a fine upgrade for Canon shooters.

Exactly. The 7DII is clearly the best APS-C non mirrorless DSLR and a very tempting proposal for Canon shooters coming from the aging 7D. It is miles ahead of anything Nikon has to offer to their APS-C lens owners.

I can agree with that part.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: telyt on September 26, 2014, 09:53:40 am
Iz it to much two ask datt peepile spels rite and use krecht grammer?

First Michael this forum is not restricted to people for whom English is their first language and those who have bothered to learn enough English as a second or third language to communicate ANYTHING to those of us who cannot or will not learn another language have earned my respect and second Michael is it too much to ask that we respect the opinions and experience of others instead of posting "I'm right and you're wrong"?
Title: Re:
Post by: John Koerner on September 26, 2014, 10:14:56 am
So basically I disagree with everything John has said.

And I agree with everything I said ... lol

Good morning!
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 26, 2014, 10:15:30 am
Many members of this forum are not native English speakers, Bernard and myself included. Correcting their grammar in a scolding fashion is simply poor taste, not gentleman-like. Coincidentally, Gentleman Jack is one of my favorites  ;)
P.S. Not to mention spelling mistakes that happen when typing fast

Touché
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 26, 2014, 10:35:31 am
Jack,
You are really something man! ;)
That's a conversation btwn you are yourself. I haven't said anything you say I have said nor do I think that.
Cheers,
Bernard


Then what do you think, Bernard?

You are riding me constantly about what camera I might choose this December (http://www.macrophotopro.com/images/smilies/sarasticlaugh.gif)

If it was simply a matter of sensor choice, I would get the D810, without a second thought.
If my preferred lens choices were a wide-angle zoom, and/or fast prime, I would also choose the D810.

But I am a macro and wildlife shooter. And Canon has by far the more versatile lens portfolio for my kind of shooting.

I am resisting my impulse to "keep up with the Jonses," as far as sensor technology goes, when I consider the fact that I would be giving up too much in the versatility of what I can do with Canon.

Their sensors might not be at the top of the heap, but they're still good enough to produce award-winning images in anything I want to do ... and with the combination of their lens portfolio, the whole system empowers me to be fully-capable of producing everything in an image I need, more conveniently than if I switch to Nikon. So, the more I think about it, the more the tradeoff and "gain in resolution" by going to the D810 isn't worth the loss of convenience and overall versatility of what I have available in Canon's lens portfolio.

I know you're excited for me to experience the exhilaration of owning the D810, lol, and maybe I will come December ... but in the end I am realizing I would feel a loss, not a a gain ... a loss of flexibility and capability that wasn't worth a few extra notches of resolution.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Jim Pascoe on September 26, 2014, 10:41:14 am
Slobo, the only 2 things the 7D II doesn't have is "the best sensor in the world" ... and wifi ...

But it does have an all-new sensor (that hasn't even been reviewed yet) ...

Further, it has a full combo of more solid construction, fine image quality, better shutter life, and greater lens compatibility than any other camera (under $4,000) ... and everything else about it (speed, functional controls, etc.) blows every other camera out of the water ... up to and including $6-$7,000 cameras.

For $1,799.

In real-world usage, overall it's the best camera value out there.

No one camera can do everything, but this one comes the closest, for the least money.

Watch and see.

Hey Jack - I have seldom read anyone getting so worked up over a new camera before! ;D  I would just point out that of course the serious flaws are that 1. It's not full frame, 2. It's not a Leica and 3. it will not give you a neck rub after a long hard shoot. (that was not meant to be rude by the way).  And the sad thing is that in 12 months it will be so yesterday.  Sigh, true of all out lovely trinkets.

Jim
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 26, 2014, 11:15:07 am
Hey Jack - I have seldom read anyone getting so worked up over a new camera before!...

New!? More like a frozen leftover, sitting in a freezer the last five years, just re-discovered, thawed, and sprinkled with some freshly grated parmesan ;D
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 26, 2014, 11:30:15 am
Hey Jack - I have seldom read anyone getting so worked up over a new camera before! ;D


I have never seen anyone with a gadfly chasing someone else over their purchase decisions before, as Bernard does mine, either (http://www.macrophotopro.com/images/smilies/sarasticlaugh.gif)

I am actually not all that worked up, I am more "debating the pros/cons out loud" than anything else.

Bernard's default position, of course, is "the pros of the D810," so I take the other side ...



I would just point out that of course the serious flaws are that 1. It's not full frame, 2. It's not a Leica and 3. it will not give you a neck rub after a long hard shoot. (that was not meant to be rude by the way).

I didn't consider those! lol



And the sad thing is that in 12 months it will be so yesterday.  Sigh, true of all out lovely trinkets.
Jim

That is why it doesn't really matter.

I bought the 7D in 2009 I believe. It is time for an upgrade, and the 7D II is just the most sensible choice for me overall.

I have learned to take better macro images than most with my 7D. It's not just about the sensor, it's about composition, light, and background. I have seen people post macro shots with the D810 that I would have thrown away. Most of the people whose macro images I still aspire to duplicate shoot Canon. One of the very best anywhere shoots Pentax. Very few actually shoot Nikon. However, I have seen a few D800 images that were awesome. Ultimately, ALL cameras nowadays are capable of taking superb macro images if the person behind them knows what he's doing. One of the best shooters out there still uses a Canon 40D, but his tireless treks in tropical rainforests, his knowledge of wildlife in general, and his mastery of composition & light, are all superb.

When I go beyond 1:1 in macro efforts, Canon has the most versatile solution of anyone. And I have used that lens a lot.

Ultimately, it's all about the lenses for me, as well as comfort with the system.

As a macro shooter primarily, I gain in every way by staying with the upgraded 7D II compared to the 7D.

But if I go to the D810, I gain in resolution/DR, but I lose across the board in everything else.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: allegretto on September 26, 2014, 11:47:18 am
With all the buzz I had to go over and read about the "Mighty NX-1". The fastest, most focusing-est, densest pixeling-est phon- ummmm- camera ever offered by a refrigerator manufacturer..!

Wow

Can't wait for a metabones adaptor to let me use my EF lenses with that baby... John, your ego is screwed... I'm a Samsung guy thru and thru now. Canon bodies simply are not good enough...

I do have a question though... with 5000 PD focus sensors and 25000 CD focus sensors distributed around the image... how does it know which object you want to be in focus? Is there a scroll wheel? Seems as though there would be diminishing returns in such a system, but maybe there is some slick mechanism...?
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 26, 2014, 11:58:05 am
Hi,

Without responding to any specific posting, I would say that the Canon 7D Mark II is with all probability the best APS-C camera Canon ever made.

The original 7D was to my understanding an APS-C body oriented towards the fast shooting professional users with no need for full frame 135. That camera has now been updated, great news for Canon APS-C shooters.

There is nothing wrong with APS-C, especially not if shooting sports and wild life. With full frame a longer lens is needed. Also, the 7D offers a decent resolution and low noise at high ISO, what is what counts for many of it's users.

Best regard
Erik
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 26, 2014, 12:19:38 pm
Hi,

Most AF systems have a means to select focusing point and they can also track that point.

I don't know about how the NX-1 handles in this respect. A large number of AF-points is an advantage. On traditional AF systems the AF sensors only cover the central part of the image, having the sensors distributed over a larger area is helpful.

Some new systems have eye-detection, so they can detect eyes, and with a good selection of AF points they can actually focus on that detail.

Best regards
Erik

With all the buzz I had to go over and read about the "Mighty NX-1". The fastest, most focusing-est, densest pixeling-est phon- ummmm- camera ever offered by a refrigerator manufacturer..!

Wow

Can't wait for a metabones adaptor to let me use my EF lenses with that baby... John, your ego is screwed... I'm a Samsung guy thru and thru now. Canon bodies simply are not good enough...

I do have a question though... with 5000 PD focus sensors and 25000 CD focus sensors distributed around the image... how does it know which object you want to be in focus? Is there a scroll wheel? Seems as though there would be diminishing returns in such a system, but maybe there is some slick mechanism...?
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 26, 2014, 12:27:34 pm
... Some new systems have eye-detection...

Another reason to be pissed off with Canon. I already had that system in one of their film bodies and it worked very well. Canon pioneered it, then abandoned it. Now somebody else is going to claim is as "new."
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: allegretto on September 26, 2014, 12:36:43 pm
yes, in the famous, "... all things being equal..." World more and better distributed points is good

But with that many points there had better be a way to figure out which ones you want pretty quickly

I had one of those Canons too... actually worked pretty well



Hi,

Most AF systems have a means to select focusing point and they can also track that point.

I don't know about how the NX-1 handles in this respect. A large number of AF-points is an advantage. On traditional AF systems the AF sensors only cover the central part of the image, having the sensors distributed over a larger area is helpful.

Some new systems have eye-detection, so they can detect eyes, and with a good selection of AF points they can actually focus on that detail.

Best regards
Erik

Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: NancyP on September 26, 2014, 12:39:12 pm
Can we please now get back to the Mac vs. PC wars?
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Alan Smallbone on September 26, 2014, 12:39:37 pm
BTW, I have not had a camera using CF card before - anyone have recommendations for CF card brand, reader brand? Reader must be back-compatible with USB 2.0 or Firewire 800. OK, maybe I should upgrade the computer instead...

Transcend has a really good reader that is usb3 and downwards compatible, will also read SD cards, one of the fastest I have seen and under $20. Transcend is a memory card manufacturer so they know how to read the cards. Using usb3 it is blazing fast.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/815153-REG/Transcend_TS_RDF8K_USB_3_0_Multi_Card.html

Alan
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: NancyP on September 26, 2014, 12:55:15 pm
Thanks!
I will be getting the 7D2 at some point, so this will be handy info to have - thanks for the kind advice to the CF card newbie.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 26, 2014, 03:16:13 pm

Then what do you think, Bernard?

You are riding me constantly about what camera I might choose this December (http://www.macrophotopro.com/images/smilies/sarasticlaugh.gif)

If it was simply a matter of sensor choice, I would get the D810, without a second thought.
If my preferred lens choices were a wide-angle zoom, and/or fast prime, I would also choose the D810.

But I am a macro and wildlife shooter. And Canon has by far the more versatile lens portfolio for my kind of shooting.

I am resisting my impulse to "keep up with the Jonses," as far as sensor technology goes, when I consider the fact that I would be giving up too much in the versatility of what I can do with Canon.

Their sensors might not be at the top of the heap, but they're still good enough to produce award-winning images in anything I want to do ... and with the combination of their lens portfolio, the whole system empowers me to be fully-capable of producing everything in an image I need, more conveniently than if I switch to Nikon. So, the more I think about it, the more the tradeoff and "gain in resolution" by going to the D810 isn't worth the loss of convenience and overall versatility of what I have available in Canon's lens portfolio.

I know you're excited for me to experience the exhilaration of owning the D810, lol, and maybe I will come December ... but in the end I am realizing I would feel a loss, not a a gain ... a loss of flexibility and capability that wasn't worth a few extra notches of resolution.

Jack

Jack,

I am not sure where you got the impression that I am suggesting you should get a D810.

I wrote very clearly several times that I think the 7DII is the best option for you and that I was certain you would end up buying one.

Again, you seem to be making assumptions about what I think that are simply mistaken. It is not because I own Nikon equipment that I think everyone should be using a Nikon.

I clearly think that Nikon manufactures some pieces of equipment, such as the D810, some of their recent lenses (58mm f1.4, 85mm f1.8, 400mm f2.8,...) that have some unique qualities but each photographer has the means to map this with his/her needs/likes/wants. We all strive to improve our photography, it is only natural to select the best equipment we think will help in this quest in the context if our constraints (past decisions in terms of lenses, financial situation,...).

I think that this is a 7DII for you.

Clear enough Jack?

cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 26, 2014, 05:08:02 pm
Jack,
I am not sure where you got the impression that I am suggesting you should get a D810.

Not sure where I get this impression? (http://www.macrophotopro.com/images/smilies/sarasticlaugh.gif)

Wake up and smell the coffee, Bernard.

Every time I speak about the 7D II ... "you" can be predicted to appear and speak about the virtues of Nikon ... or in some way try to "sell" Nikon.



I wrote very clearly several times that I think the 7DII is the best option for you and that I was certain you would end up buying one.

And equally as clear is your irony.

But thank you so much for validating my choices (http://www.macrophotopro.com/images/smilies/hatsoff.gif)



Again, you seem to be making assumptions about what I think that are simply mistaken. It is not because I own Nikon equipment that I think everyone should be using a Nikon.

I think you are in denial.

A quick review of the sum total of all your posts says otherwise--that you live and breathe Nikon--and see the world through Nikon-tinted glasses (lenses) ;D



I clearly think that Nikon manufactures some pieces of equipment, such as the D810, some of their recent lenses (58mm f1.4, 85mm f1.8, 400mm f2.8,...) that have some unique qualities but each photographer has the means to map this with his/her needs/likes/wants.

Right. And I have outlined mine.



We all strive to improve our photography, it is only natural to select the best equipment we think will help in this quest in the context if our constraints (past decisions in terms of lenses, financial situation,...).

Right. Again, which I have said all along.

The absolute max in resolution is not the only deciding factor for me.

Ultimately, there is nothing better about the D810 over the 7D II, except single-image resolution ... which could only be noticed by pixel-peepers (and only if they had my raw files) ... and then, really, not by much ... which won't really matter in the real world. Basically, no one will be able to tell the difference on the subjects I shoot.

In every other category, the 7D II trumps the D810, every one.

If I switched, I would suffer the difference is in my lack of lens choices in the subjects I shoot, most particularly shooting over 1:1 magnification in macro (which comprises a large portion of what I do). Again, I could work around this with Nikon, using a maze of connecting gadgetry ... stiff bellows, etc. ... or I could just use the one, ultra-convenient specialized lens Canon has FAR more useful application in nature. (You can only use bellows in a studio.) What's more, in the end, no one will know the difference in resolution anyway.



Clear enough Jack?
cheers,
Bernard

I was never unclear as to your biased favoritism with Nikon (with good reason, for what you like to shoot).

But I was unclear as to which way I wanted to go, ultimate resolution with Nikon, or far more convenience & flexible choices for what I like to shoot with Canon.

I am crystal clear now, and convenience and flexibility win in my book.

Cheers back,

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 26, 2014, 06:19:55 pm
Every time I speak about the 7D II ... "you" can be predicted to appear and speak about the virtues of Nikon ... or in some way try to "sell" Nikon.

Ok, then please quote a single post where I did that.

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: NancyP on September 26, 2014, 06:53:30 pm
Let's hear it for the fact that we have buckets of pretty damn amazing gear available (if we can afford it) and that even the budget gear is pretty fantastic.

Loving glances backward at my very first, and all-manual, SLR: Mamiya-Sekor DTL 1000 with - gasp - on-board selenium meter that can switch between spot and average. A few of the lenses have had new life via adapter on my Canon 6D. Faster old primes are aberration city wide open, but the "look", the color is very nice. Of course, back in the day, I shot black and white exclusively, because that was the only way I could affordably control the whole process (developed and printed myself - the joys of having access to a "public" (school) darkroom). Were there better cameras and lenses even then in 1968? Sure. Did I learn a lot with my beloved M-S? Yes!
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 26, 2014, 07:26:42 pm
Ok, then please quote a single post where I did that.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Bernard

Still in denial --> LOL (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=93216.msg765471#msg765471)
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 26, 2014, 07:38:29 pm
Let's hear it for the fact that we have buckets of pretty damn amazing gear available (if we can afford it) and that even the budget gear is pretty fantastic.

Ya know, Nancy, that is pretty much all of it.

If you can't take a good photo with today's offerings, then you need to work on your craft, not your gear.

Choose the gear that best suits your interests, and I've done that.

Regarding sensor quality, the feedback is already coming in, and while not record-breaking, the news is all good.
The 70D is reputed to be 1 stop better than the old 7D, and the image results from the 7DII are coming out 1 stop better than the 70D.
Its high ISO figures as showing to be good as the highly-regarded 6D (and the 6D files are supported, where the 7D II's are not yet).

Regarding everything else (build quality, FPS, AF points, brand new external control of AF points, etc., etc.), the 7D II trumps most anything out there.

Bottom Line: As an all-around tool, the 7D IIhas no equal at its price point ... it has no equal at double its price point ... and it equals (and in many cases even trumps) existing offerings at 4x its price point.

If the primary purpose of a "version II" camera is to be better than the version I camera, then Canon hit it out of the park.

This will be my last comment on "gear" ;D

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 26, 2014, 07:41:31 pm
Still in denial --> LOL (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=93216.msg765471#msg765471)

Bring up the quote Jack. Where did I suggest you to go for a D810 over a 7DII? Finding the quote should be easy to do if it exists, right? Or is there a conspiracy between me and Kevin/Michael to hide these posts from your view?

Lastly, why would I deny willing to convert you to Nikon if that were my objective?

The reality is that your line of thought is fully relying on a self-supporting belief about what I think that is not substanciated by facts.

As far as your idiotic LOL quote, ask yourself the question. Who mentioned the existence of that (great) feature Jack? Is it me or Nancy?

I'll stop here.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: LesPalenik on September 26, 2014, 08:42:11 pm
Quote
Regarding sensor quality, the feedback is already coming in, and while not record-breaking, the news is all good.
The 70D is reputed to be 1 stop better than the old 7D, and the image results from the 7DII are coming out 1 stop better than the 70D.
Its high ISO figures as showing to be good as the highly-regarded 6D (and the 6D files are supported, where the 7D II's are not yet).

If I'm not mistaken, at one time Canon utilized the same sensor in 7D and T2i.
Do you think, the next Rebel model will inherit the new sensor as well? Many shooters do no need all the bells and whistles of 7D MkII, but a higher image quality would be a welcome enhancement.
 
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 26, 2014, 09:27:40 pm
Since this forum leans more toward landscape users, as the title reflects (portrait photographers, etc.), there is a bias toward resolution only.

However, in the more rounded nature photography world, it looks like Nikon APS-C users are already looking to dump their Nikons (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/54458821) and get the 7D II ... for the same "checklist" reasons I have repeatedly stated from the start.

Earlier this year, longtime Nikon user, Scott Kelby likewise dumped his Nikon D4 for the Canon 1Dx (http://scottkelby.com/2014/why-i-switched-to-canon), after an actual real-world comparison, once again for reasons of speed, total functionality, skin tones, etc.

Again, it isn't all about resolution. (I also think that straight DxO scores are somewhat bogus and they don't tell the whole story.)

The D810 is very nice, but ultimately somewhat of a rigid, niche camera--and I think more versatile all-around shooters will lean toward Canon.

As time progresses over the next year, I think there's going to be a boatload of Nikon wildlife/sports shooters switching to Canon.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Paul2660 on September 26, 2014, 09:39:38 pm
John, I think we all know what your next camera purchase will be. 😃

Enjoy.

Paul


Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: LesPalenik on September 26, 2014, 10:03:20 pm
Quote
As time progresses over the next year, I think there's going to be a boatload of Nikon wildlife/sports shooters switching to Canon.

From what I'm reading, it could well be that more of them will be switching to Samsung, Sony, Fuji and Panasonic.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: allegretto on September 27, 2014, 12:01:26 pm
Samsung again..?

The Devil will be passing out hot chocolate before Samsung becomes a mainstream brand. Asia may be different. Samsung may find a place there, but never a Big Share.

Too many other brands to pass over to get to Samsung. Panasonic, Olympus, heck even Sony has more glass. And no one matches Canon. So I sincerely doubt many pros or amateurs will be dumping their 7D, or anything else for a Samsung.

But this does tie into a previous statement about this being a "Landscape" forum. Though there are quite many different types here, many are "Landscapers", but in general I'd call this a Megapixel Forum. And a "useless review" Forum, but NOT the way it may sound.

The actual reviews by folks here are usually quite reliable and provide useful info. Coming back to photography after decades away this Forum is great for info. But many here tend to perseverate over a DxO or dpreview  rating/review than actually know about specifics of a given camera. Handling, ease of use, simplicity when you want the shot.

Likewise the MPlx thing. There is a theme that absolute count of MPlx determines how good a picture a camera takes. Yes, you all know that's not true. Yes, you all know that MPxl superiority wanes when any of a number of issues are less than ideal. But it's a "if 20 is good... 40 is better" attitude that prevails nonetheless. ..."one day, I might have to enlarge this shot to a Billboard..."   sure...

Anyway, Canon may be ready soon to lay all other sensors to waste.. or just a little better than they currently are... who knows. One thing you can rely upon is that Samsung is not going to eat the Market.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Glenn NK on September 27, 2014, 12:25:35 pm
A spec sheet doesn't make a camera system, nor does a favourable review on DPR.

Give me the names of two makers that dominate the market and tell me why.

Samsun, Panasonic, etc are well known for their TVs, cell phones, and refrigerators - it will be difficult to overcome that and displace the big two in cameras.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 27, 2014, 12:50:53 pm
Samsung again..?

 I am tempted.

Quote
..."one day, I might have to enlarge this shot to a Billboard..."   sure..

Happend to me.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: barryfitzgerald on September 27, 2014, 01:08:59 pm
Samsung won market share by being extremely aggressive in the consumer electronics marketplace (ie offering products that were some way cheaper than the "established brands") that is basically why they did so well (and maintaining a decent quality level too)

The camera industry for some reason seems to think it can buck the price trend on electronics (look at the computer area esp prices have massively fallen) well that's one reason growth is slow and in many cases in decline (cameras are honestly overpriced in this field)

The recent offering by Samsung might appeal to some, but Samsung are going nowhere at all in their imaging division, and they won't be either unless they employ the same aggressive cut throat pricing they have in other areas. So unless that happens, forget about Samsung entirely it's "all about the money" no company is going to make a big inroad into this market unless they start doing something insane price wise. I'd wager Samsung will have next to no impact in the marketplace, they could..but they are not employing their winning formula.

Let's not waste keyboard lifespan talking about something that isn't going to happen.
As for Canon well they are ticking along and might hope to pick up a few disgruntled Nikon sports/wildlife shooters along the way nothing wrong there
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 27, 2014, 01:19:34 pm
As far as your idiotic LOL quote,


Good morning.

Actually, it was your idiotic quote (http://www.macrophotopro.com/images/smilies/sarasticlaugh.gif)

I'll stop there too.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 27, 2014, 01:45:24 pm
From what I'm reading, it could well be that more of them will be switching to Samsung, Sony, Fuji and Panasonic.


I already have a Samsung phone, and wouldn't mind owning their cameras either, if 1) they proved to be built to last in the outdoors, and 2) have compatibility with some serious lenses for indoor studio shots.

Stepping up with a fine sensor and rapid-shooting capability is a great start for Samsung, but I'd have to see more of what they can do and how specialized their lenses get (or if they become Canon-compatible).

Here are some awesome macro shots (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ectemnius/with/15094599888) taken with the old EOS 7D, and the setup (http://photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24523) that was used to take them.

Here is another awesome collection (https://www.flickr.com/photos/29369066@N05) of macro shots, taken with just the old Canon 40D and 5D. The cool thing is, this fellow used both Zeiss and Nikon microscope optics at the end of his Canon bodies ... his shots are fabulous ... so, again, the flexibility is selling point.

If you're just shooting portraits or snapshots, then I could see going with Samsung this early, but I am going to delve into is some pretty specialized macro shooting, and I am 100% confident that the 7D II will give me the most options, as well as outstanding image quality for my intended purpose.

I think I would be giving up way too many options by switching to a fledgling system like Samsung at this point.

Jack
Title: Re:
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on September 27, 2014, 03:17:07 pm
You do know that macro is mostly all manual and that the MP-E 65 can be used with adapter on other cameras?

From what I've seen specialized macro shooters mix and match optics and accessories from a wide range of brands all the time.
Title: Re:
Post by: John Koerner on September 27, 2014, 03:42:46 pm
You do know that macro is mostly all manual

No kidding?

I would have never known that but for this post :D



and that the MP-E 65 can be used with adapter on other cameras?

Realistically, the MP-E 65 mm is the single best, most versatile lens for macro shooting, especially out in the field.

I have never heard of it used on other cameras, and especially not on a Nikon. Please show me examples.

I know for sure it is usable on the end of a Canon, without any adapter :D



From what I've seen specialized macro shooters mix and match optics and accessories from a wide range of brands all the time.

This is true, especially in photomicroscopy.

People use diopters, Raynox, tubes, etc. ... but (in every other system) to switch from 1x to 5x means changing tubes, lenses, etc. ... unless you're using Canon and have the MP-E 65mm, where you don't have to change a thing.

While ALL systems can be set up for indoor studio stacks, including Canon, no other system has the 1-5x field flexibility of the Canon MP-E 65mm on top of this.

For this reason, the lion's share of macro shooters shoot Canon. And, until somebody else comes up with an equivalent, I suspect it will remain that way.

Hey, I too had to stop and think about the D810 sensor, like everyone else, but ultimately the question was, "Why would I want to complicate my macro life, and minimize my options, by switching brands?"

As can be seen in the photos above, the image quality in the old 40D, 7D, and 5D is plenty good to produce colorful, clear, mind-boggling macro imagery ... and the 7D II will be better than all of these ... while still giving me all the flexibility in the world, with the MP-E 65. Why would I go through the hassle of switching to any other brand, just to make my choices more limited and difficult?

I will be able to have my cake and eat it too, and I like the sound of that (http://www.macrophotopro.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)

Jack
Title: Re:
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on September 27, 2014, 04:04:53 pm
Since you asked I can get examples. I only need one source. But it is not easy writing it up on a mobile device, so don't hold your breath :-)

Edit: if you are really curious just Google John Hallmen
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 27, 2014, 04:50:06 pm
Since you asked I can get examples. I only need one source. But it is not easy writing it up on a mobile device, so don't hold your breath :-)

Edit: if you are really curious just Google John Hallmen

Interesting, thank you for sharing.

I agree, John Hallmen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnhallmen) has some fine macro photography.

However, I didn't see any example of him using another system with an MP-E 65mm attached (though he did give props to the lens, as he should).

Aside from his own website, I also saw him featured in this article (http://macrosmuymacros.com/index.php/en/featured-guests/john-hallmen-guest-en), wherein he said pretty much exactly what I have been saying. He said, "I was rather disappointed with the mounting solution of the Nikon R1C1 macro flash system. Mostly because it's a nice system in many regards but the plasticky mount is a vital flaw and considering the price Nikon ought to have come up with something better.

"One thing that I find disappointing in terms of macro gear is the apparent lack of interest in serious macro photography shown by the camera/lens manufacturers. There is pretty much one (!) alternative from one manufacturer (Canon MP-E65) to choose from if you're looking to buy something off the shelf capable of larger than life size imaging without add-ons."


And if you scroll down to take a look at links to his gear, he shoots the Canon 5D Mark II + the Canon 270 EX Speedlight (http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6153/6146025495_8c7070d915_b.jpg).

Jack

EDIT: Here is another recent photo of his gear (https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnhallmen/9995883736/): a Canon body, this time with Nikkor lens (which can't be done in the reverse). Again, it's about flexibility.
Title: Re:
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on September 27, 2014, 05:39:05 pm
I think you will find that reverse lenses are quite common :-)

I keed.

I will get back to you with example but I will say this for now. He shoots any gear and makes it work. There is no way of telling from the pictures what equipment was used to make them. It's all about who is behind the controls.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 27, 2014, 11:22:49 pm
I think you will find that reverse lenses are quite common :-)
I keed.

To go beyond 1:1 lot of people use reverse lenses, and/or extension rings, true.

However, to increase magnification, or decrease it, you need to either change the lens or add/subtract an adapter.

With the Canon MP-E, you don't have to do this. You can use the same lens between 1-5x, which is an absolute advantage and convenience in the field.

Your own example, Mr. Hallmen, confirmed this himself: "There is pretty much one (!) alternative from one manufacturer (Canon MP-E65) to choose from if you're looking to buy something off the shelf capable of larger than life size imaging without add-ons."

That is exactly what I have been saying all along.



I will get back to you with example but I will say this for now.

By all means, show me an example that proves your claim ... because (so far) the man's images, outside articles about the man, his own quotes, and his own links to his choice of equipment (directly-stated) prove mine.

But, I agree that cross-platform usage does happen, as it should. Which, here again, Canon bodies allow for ... but other bodies do not.

I have never seen an MP-E 65mm on any other body besides a Canon, but I have seen other lenses adapted to Canon.



There is no way of telling from the pictures what equipment was used to make them.

There is a way to tell what equipment was used: go back to his Flickr site (https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnhallmen) that I posted, click on the individual photos, and you will see the Canon 5D Mark II as the camera being used in the EXIF data.



It's all about who is behind the controls.

Ultimately, it is about both. The man behind it has to have the eye, experience, and talent to shoot like that ... but, without the right equipment, you will never be able to shoot a 5:1 shot.

You need the right tools to be able to make that happen.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: LesPalenik on September 28, 2014, 12:40:18 am
John,

do you use MP-E65 on a rail or just on the naked tripod?
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 28, 2014, 01:36:23 am
John,
do you use MP-E65 on a rail or just on the naked tripod?


I have used the MP-E 65 freehand (with the MT-24EX (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/239656-USA/Canon_2357A002_MT_24EX_Macro_Twin_Lite.html) flash), on the naked tripod (natural light as well as flash), as well as on the B150B-LMT-Pkg (http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/s.nl/it.A/id.4909/.f) manual macro rail (almost exclusively natural light stacks of 2-12 images). I have since sold all of this equipment with the intent to step up my game.

Was thinking of switching systems but am going to re-invest into Canon, beginning December. Will be using a Stackshot (http://www.cognisys-inc.com/stackshot/stackshot.php) automated macro rail now with the MP-E 65, as it is far more precise, and it lets you take really deep stacks systematically (up to 100+ images), which greatly increases the quality. This will mostly be for high-magnification studio shots. Am thinking about taking it even further by getting into photomicroscopy, which is kind of fascinating really. There is a lot to learn, but people are pretty free about sharing their secrets, such as this man's setup (http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20278).

For the field, I plan on using the MP-E 65 mm, with MT-24EX Twinlite Flash, on top of a RRS Monopod (http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/s.nl/it.A/id.8866/.f), and with the ends of the twin flashes both heavily-diffused (custom), as well as held quite some distance away (on each end of a Camera Bar (http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/s.nl/it.A/id.4408/.f)). This will be to minimize any "artificial look" and to render as close as possible to natural light.

We'll see how it goes, but I am hopeful the results will be nice :)

Jack
Title: Re:
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on September 28, 2014, 01:48:36 am
http://makrofokus.se/blogg/2012/7/24/sony-nex-7-canon-mp-e-65.html

Canon lens, Sony body, metabones adapter. Examples show 50 and 31 image stacks in the field.

It from his (with Stanislav Snäll) Swedish blog. An absolute goldmine of information.

I do suggest you keep looking through the Flickr. Few are so brand agnostic. And he shares freely with information about gear and the process to create the images.
Title: Re:
Post by: John Koerner on September 28, 2014, 02:00:00 am
http://makrofokus.se/blogg/2012/7/24/sony-nex-7-canon-mp-e-65.html
Canon lens, Sony body, metabones adapter. Examples show 50 and 31 image stacks in the field.

You were right, at least on the adapter. Thank you for the link.

But I still don't see any evidence that John Hallmén shoots on a Sony body with an adapter.



It from his (with Stanislav Snäll) Swedish blog. An absolute goldmine of information.

I don't think that setup is what I would ever want to use. Does not look absolutely stable, like other setups I have seen.

Some decent images, sure, but I honestly think the adapter (and/or wood tripod) reduced the clarity of most of those shots.



I do suggest you keep looking through the Flickr. Few are so brand agnostic. And he shares freely with information about gear and the process to create the images.

I have found that most guys in macro share pretty openly, which is nice.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 28, 2014, 02:02:29 am
BTW, in keeping with this, and in reference to my 10:36:23 PM post two-up, the same individual had this setup (http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19124), but he said the wood likewise allowed for too much vibration.

With the updated setup, using a solid metal breadboard (http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20278), his results were much better.

Jack
Title: Re:
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on September 28, 2014, 04:22:32 am
Aha, but I never said he did. I said one could use the MP-E on an adapter. I have provided evidence of this from one source, like I said.

The adapter will cause a small misalignment as Roger Cicala has shown with every adapter no matter the quality. This means nothing in this case with 3d objects. You can measure it but you can't see it. And in the case of focus stacking it means absolutely nothing as you select the sharpest parts of each subframe .

That tripod is a Stabil (www.stabil.nu). Made to go low specifically for macro use. John is known for his field stacking work with live critters. Even hand held. Here a flash is very useful.

So while a laboratory setup is nice I tried to provide example of real use case that works in the field as well as in studio. In the text Hallmen mentions that the mirrorbox is completely redundant in the studio where you want EFC and no flappy mirror.

So I could go on forever with this but I think it is quite enough. I don't have to prove anything but I suggest you follow Hallmens Flickr. You will learn a lot of down to earth useful stuff.

I'm done.
Title: Re:
Post by: John Koerner on September 28, 2014, 10:42:45 am
Aha, but I never said he did. I said one could use the MP-E on an adapter. I have provided evidence of this from one source, like I said.

You implied that Hallmén used this combo, when you said, "Just Google John Hallmén," as your proof of the Sony/MP-E union.

I did Google Hallmén, and what I found was a man who used Canon, and a man whose quotes in a magazine article echoed essentially everything I said here.

In fact, it was Stanislav Snäll, not John Hallmén, who used this Sony/MP-E combo, but since the two are partners on that blog series link you shared your mistake was understandable.

The most important thing is that it looks like they both have a lot of fun out there :D



The adapter will cause a small misalignment as Roger Cicala has shown with every adapter no matter the quality. This means nothing in this case with 3d objects. You can measure it but you can't see it. And in the case of focus stacking it means absolutely nothing as you select the sharpest parts of each subframe .

That tripod is a Stabil (www.stabil.nu). Made to go low specifically for macro use. John is known for his field stacking work with live critters. Even hand held. Here a flash is very useful.

The tripod does have some interesting and thoughtful features. I reviewed their equipment again, and they both use the same tripod out in the field; they both use the same MP-E 65mm, but I was more impressed with Hallmén's photography overall. I don't know if it is because of something being lost via the adapter, or what.



So while a laboratory setup is nice I tried to provide example of real use case that works in the field as well as in studio. In the text Hallmen mentions that the mirrorbox is completely redundant in the studio where you want EFC and no flappy mirror.

I agree with you here: field and studio are much different. Yet Hallmén even brings his bellows out into the field, which is remarkable.



So I could go on forever with this but I think it is quite enough. I don't have to prove anything but I suggest you follow Hallmens Flickr. You will learn a lot of down to earth useful stuff.
I'm done.

Indeed, I have added him as a contact on Flickr, so thanks again for sharing.

In the links I provided, you will learn a lot of useful stuff also.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: jjj on September 28, 2014, 07:57:03 pm
Wake up and smell the coffee, Bernard.

A quick review of the sum total of all your posts says otherwise--that you live and breathe Nikon--and see the world through Nikon-tinted glasses (lenses) ;D
Yup. Bernard can be a bit tedious with his trying to hype Nikon kit all the time, regardless of context.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BJL on September 28, 2014, 08:46:29 pm
The absolute max in resolution is not the only deciding factor for me.
mately, there is nothing better about the D810 over the 7D II, except single-image resolution

In every other category, the 7D II trumps the D810, every one.
So, are you saying that it is already established that the 7D II has better dynamic range (better handling of scenes of high subject brightness range) than the D810?  That seems to be a common interest amongst photographers of landscapes and such.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 28, 2014, 09:13:18 pm
So, are you saying that it is already established that the 7D II has better dynamic range (better handling of scenes of high subject brightness range) than the D810?  That seems to be a common interest amongst photographers of landscapes and such.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Paul2660 on September 28, 2014, 11:25:51 pm
John: 

I believe you wrote this:

"The absolute max in resolution is not the only deciding factor for me.
mately, there is nothing better about the D810 over the 7D II, except single-image resolution"

I have to ask, how you can make such a statement?  I don't believe you have used either camera so are you basing everything on what you are reading?  I think it would be better stated, "there is nothing better in your opinion". as I really don't believe you have the expertise to make such a high ranging general statement.  I know I don't.

It's also very clear to me, that you have a very strong bias towards Canon cameras and their lenses, and for sure there is nothing wrong with that, but I continue to find it quite strange that you seem to find it OK to make such strong/negative statements towards Nikon with no real hands on knowledge of the cameras.  You had mentioned pages back, that you were going to rent a D810 and lenses and try it for yourself, and I suggested at the time, that would be a great idea.   You might re-consider that, and then come back and report to this forum what "your" thoughts are, not some re-hashed information based on review from others.  You are obviously a very accomplished photographer, who specializes in Macro photography and I for one would like to see your feedback, based on real use.  In today's world, it's so easy now to rent for a small cost, test, and report back. 

As for Canon vs Nikon, I don't tend to get into the fray, as it always gets too emotional and statements tend to get made that more than likely are regretted long term.  I saw enough in the results from my testing with the D800 to make the switch from Canon, in 2012.  I don't regret that decision at all.  I made my decision after renting a D800 and shooting it with my 5D MKIII and MKII. 

I also believe that most of the owners of the site, have shown in their past reviews, where the strong points of both Canon and Nikon DSLR technology is to date.  You can read Michael's and Kevin's and many other reviews on this site.  I also don't believe that any of them, (all more accomplished in this business than I am) have ever made a statement, like you did which I quoted in the beginning of this post.  Instead, I have found that in each review or report they give a even and fair progress of the camera/software in question pointing out what they feel are strong and weak points of the products so that each individual person can make their own choice. 

I guess I would ask, please lighten up a bit, after all, it's just equipment and for sure there is not going to be one camera that works for all of us, ever. 

Paul Caldwell


Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Glenn NK on September 28, 2014, 11:46:00 pm
Yup. Bernard can be a bit tedious with his trying to hype Nikon kit all the time, regardless of context.

I won't say it's tedious, and I will say that it's rather harmless, but otherwise my impression matches your comments.

It's very subtle and well done, but still noticeable.  I can't pick it out in any one post, but when numerous posts are read (and one has a good memory), it becomes noticeable.

Glenn
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 29, 2014, 12:13:23 am
John:  

I believe you wrote this:

"The absolute max in resolution is not the only deciding factor for me.
mately, there is nothing better about the D810 over the 7D II, except single-image resolution"

I have to ask, how you can make such a statement?  I don't believe you have used either camera so are you basing everything on what you are reading?  I think it would be better stated, "there is nothing better in your opinion". as I really don't believe you have the expertise to make such a high ranging general statement.  I know I don't.

It's also very clear to me, that you have a very strong bias towards Canon cameras and their lenses, and for sure there is nothing wrong with that, but I continue to find it quite strange that you seem to find it OK to make such strong/negative statements towards Nikon with no real hands on knowledge of the cameras.  You had mentioned pages back, that you were going to rent a D810 and lenses and try it for yourself, and I suggested at the time, that would be a great idea.   You might re-consider that, and then come back and report to this forum what "your" thoughts are, not some re-hashed information based on review from others.  You are obviously a very accomplished photographer, who specializes in Macro photography and I for one would like to see your feedback, based on real use.  In today's world, it's so easy now to rent for a small cost, test, and report back.  

As for Canon vs Nikon, I don't tend to get into the fray, as it always gets too emotional and statements tend to get made that more than likely are regretted long term.  I saw enough in the results from my testing with the D800 to make the switch from Canon, in 2012.  I don't regret that decision at all.  I made my decision after renting a D800 and shooting it with my 5D MKIII and MKII.  

I also believe that most of the owners of the site, have shown in their past reviews, where the strong points of both Canon and Nikon DSLR technology is to date.  You can read Michael's and Kevin's and many other reviews on this site.  I also don't believe that any of them, (all more accomplished in this business than I am) have ever made a statement, like you did which I quoted in the beginning of this post.  Instead, I have found that in each review or report they give a even and fair progress of the camera/software in question pointing out what they feel are strong and weak points of the products so that each individual person can make their own choice.  

I guess I would ask, please lighten up a bit, after all, it's just equipment and for sure there is not going to be one camera that works for all of us, ever.  

Paul Caldwell

(http://www.macrophotopro.com/images/smilies/appl.gif)
Paul, I was going to go line-by-line over your post, and debate some of your points, but you're right: it's time to lighten up.

Debating systems was not why I got into photography; I got in to take gorgeous shots of nature as best as I could.

I first went to forums to learn (and I still do). I feel I have improved tremendously, yet still see tremendous room for improvement.

When people debate like this, they naturally look for flaws in everything. What was said, how it was said, blah-blah. They click to look at other people's photos, not to enjoy their images, but to criticize some small point in their "whatever," so they can criticize their gear, rather than just to connect with and enjoy someone else's world and their imagery.

With that said, I clicked on your website links and am glad I did. I think you have a great, user-friendly website; casual, yet very professional and full of truly beautiful photos.

Thanks for the reality check, thanks for the opportunity to stop and look at your photos, and congrats on a fine website.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 29, 2014, 12:33:53 am
It's very subtle and well done, but still noticeable.  I can't pick it out in any one post, but when numerous posts are read (and one has a good memory), it becomes noticeable.

Guys,

Really, I apologize if I offended anyone. Some points (that may not be best shared in a thread about the 7DII but these personnal comments leave me little choice):
- I do clearly use Nikon equipment (although less and less since most of my lenses aren't Nikon, my flash system is Profoto,...) and I am overall happy about its performance and yes, I do comment on that from time to time, but rarely, if ever, do I comment negatively about other brands equipment in isolation,

- I believe that only a small sub-set of my posts are about the performance of bodies anyway, that really isn't my main interest in photography and I think I produce enough images to make that clear (whether you like them or not is a different topic),

- I really am brand agnostic in that I will buy whatever works best for me that I can afford and that delivers significant additional value compared to what I already own. That may very well include Canon equipment again if I think it can help me produce better images,

- I do think that lenses are a more important long term investment than bodies (especially high quality lenses), which is one of the reasons I am happy with my investment in F mount lenses that will make it rather painless to invest in a Canon body if it delivers better performance for what I do (meaning better DR). I believe that the difference in performance between bodies tend to be larger than between lenses (the gap between the Nikon and Canon 400mm f2.8 is tiny in absolute terms, they are both blow your mind good), so flexibility in picking any body is IMHO more important overall than the ability to use any possible type of lens while being locked in a mount. Fortunately, the Sony a7x system is now offering a similar option for EOS lenses owners,

- I do think that Canon makes some brilliant pieces of equipment that I would like to be able to use (17mm T/S, 85mm f1.2, new 200-400 f4,...) but they are not important enough for me to take in the additional cost. The 7DII is a great APS-C body and is vastly superior to anything Nikon has to offer in that segment (I wrote that several times in this very thread) even if, as a body from a spec standpoint, it seems far behind the Samsung NX1. On the other hand, I don't see any Canon FF body offering things Nikon FF bodies don't do equally well or better precisely in terms of overall balance of performance, not just DR. This is simply an objective view and I do not say this in order to advice anyone to move to Nikon, I couldn't care less what people do and I do very well understand that people have constraints (cost,...) or specific applications for which this may not be relevant or may be compensated by other aspects such as the availability of a unique lens. I don't remember ever advising someone to switch to Nikon,

- I do indeed think that some pieces of equipment have a questionable price/performance ratio compared to what I use today (think Leica S) but I do acknowledge the qualities of those systems (looks, UI, Lenses,...),

- I do indeed like to tease a bit sometimes, but it is more about highlighting what I think is a lack of objectivity rather than pushing Nikon stuff down the throat of people who clearly aren't interested anyway. It is up to them to react more or less smartly. ;)

As far as the recent exchanges with John/Jack, that I just don't get it because I haven't made any single mention of Nikon equipment at all. He is the one who brought the D810 in this discussion and wrote angry pages about it, probably getting confused with the other thread where HE asked inputs about that camera vs the D3x.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 29, 2014, 12:34:29 am
Got to give it to Jack. He is one of the few forum members I know capable of ceding a point in a gentlemanly fashion, without looking defeated. Hats off, Jack!
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 29, 2014, 01:28:30 am
Hi,

I have no pony in this race…

I was on a workshop with Hans Kruse in the Dolomites, and he was shooting both Canon and Nikon. Main reason may be that he feels the need to help customers on both systems.

My interpretation of what he said was really that Nikon had an advantage in DR, shooting Canon he needed to be more careful. So with Canon he needed expose to the right and bracket, while with the Nikon there was less need of that. He also said that Nikon had a clear advantage in resolution. But Canon also did the job.

Here I may add my observation that I see little (well none) difference in A2-size prints between my 39 MP MFD and my 24 MP Sony, although there is a large difference in file image quality.  Human vision doesn't need 36 MP for small prints like A2, I guess. So 24 MP may be plenty unless you print really large.

I also got the impression that Hans felt that the Canon was the system that was better designed.

Both companies make some wonderful lenses, like Canon 17 and 24 T&S lenses or the mighty 14-24/2.8 by Nikon.

Best regards
Erik



Got to give it to Jack. He is one of the few forum members I know capable of ceding a point in a gentlemanly fashion, without looking defeated. Hats off, Jack!
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 29, 2014, 09:19:02 am
Got to give it to Jack. He is one of the few forum members I know capable of ceding a point in a gentlemanly fashion, without looking defeated. Hats off, Jack!

As always, le provocateur (http://www.macrophotopro.com/images/smilies/sarasticlaugh.gif)

Defeated? Rubbish. My points have been well made pretty much across the board.

I clicked on the guy's site, ready to criticize, and I just liked his work and realized he was right: it's time to take it easy. That was the only point I ceded.

Same way as I don't get irritated at you anymore, Slobo. After all that "behind the scenes help" you took the time to give me on black-and-white conversions. I know behind that smart mouth and sharp tongue is a pretty cool dude  (http://www.macrophotopro.com/images/smilies/sarasticlaugh.gif)

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 29, 2014, 09:48:14 am
Jack, that was a genuine compliment. Nothing provocative or sarcastic intended. As for "defetead," I said the opposite.


EDIT: "that" above should read as "what I said" (in post #141)
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on September 30, 2014, 11:06:58 am
Jack, that was a genuine compliment. Nothing provocative or sarcastic intended. As for "defetead," I said the opposite.

Yours too :)
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BJL on September 30, 2014, 02:28:28 pm
John, it was a simple yes or no question, and yet I do not understand your reply.

Let me try again:
You say that
1) "In every other category [except single-image resolution] the 7D II trumps the D810"
and
2) dynamic range is a different category than single-image resolution
from which by a basic syllogism
3) the 7D II trumps the D810 in the category of dynamic range.

So are you saying that the 7D II trumps the D810 in the category of dynamic range, yes or no?


By the way, the Canon 7D II seems like a great camera for many photographers' needs; I do not understand the "no camera in a smaller format should cost close to the cheapest camera in a larger format, regardless of other format-independent advantages" doctrine that we get from the "bigger is always (much) better" crowd.  But you seem to be pointlessly overstating its comparative strengths.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 30, 2014, 04:46:47 pm
John, it was a simple yes or no question, and yet I do not understand your reply.

BJL,

You are talking to someone who is in love. No groom looks objectively at his bride the day before the wedding. ;)

I don't think it is our role to point out the extra pounds hiding below the wedding dress (unless you have a crash on John/Jack of course?). ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 30, 2014, 05:00:23 pm
... You are talking to someone who is in love. No groom looks objectively at his bride the day before the wedding. ;)

You guys are too cruel! There is nothing wrong with falling in love with 20th century technology. After all, some are still shooting 8x10 ;)
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: NancyP on September 30, 2014, 07:49:07 pm
Come on - I know some folks that aspire to ULF: 11" x 14", 12" x 20", and so on.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on October 01, 2014, 12:15:27 am
John, it was a simple yes or no question, and yet I do not understand your reply.

Let me try again:
You say that
1) "In every other category [except single-image resolution] the 7D II trumps the D810"
and
2) dynamic range is a different category than single-image resolution
from which by a basic syllogism
3) the 7D II trumps the D810 in the category of dynamic range.

So are you saying that the 7D II trumps the D810 in the category of dynamic range, yes or no?


By the way, the Canon 7D II seems like a great camera for many photographers' needs; I do not understand the "no camera in a smaller format should cost close to the cheapest camera in a larger format, regardless of other format-independent advantages" doctrine that we get from the "bigger is always (much) better" crowd.  But you seem to be pointlessly overstating its comparative strengths.



BJL, your question wouldn't have been a question, had you bothered to read everything.

I didn't bother to answer it, because you didn't bother to read before you wrote.

You attributed the exact opposite of what I actually said, in fact: hence the image.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: bcooter on October 01, 2014, 02:44:30 pm
I think the 7d 2 has a great place, especially for small form combo video/still cameras, IF they had put an articulated screen on the camera and really, really should have offered better compression, more bit depth (in video).

Honestly I would love to see the makers stop fooling around.   Third party hackers have proved the 5d3 can shoot raw and even the olympus em-1 can do 4k at 4:2:2: and variable frame rates.

So if people with few resources can do this, so can the manufacturers.  

You know you can buy these little cameras and multiple brands until you've mortaged your kids college savings and that is the rub because everytime some company introduces a new camera something seems left off.

So honestly instead of the 7d2 I think 99.999% of the users of this camera would get equal functionality of a 70d for $900.

That's the one thing I really like about RED.   They're expensive but when RED went from the R1 to the Scarlet/Epic they changed the complete camera and form factor and continue to improve them with modules/accessories, obviously at a price.

Still, buying a new camera really should be buying a "new" camera that does major things the lower and previous models don't.
IMO

BC

Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on October 01, 2014, 06:19:53 pm
BJL,

You are talking to someone who is in love. No groom looks objectively at his bride the day before the wedding. ;)

I don't think it is our role to point out the extra pounds hiding below the wedding dress (unless you have a crash on John/Jack of course?). ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Extra pounds? Nonsense.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your D810 is the one carrying the extra pounds Bernard ;)


My new 7D II is going to faster, more athletic, more all-around capable, will perform more tasks ... and (best of all) she has some "new & responsive buttons" to push :o

So, yes, I am excited!  ;D

Jack
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: jjj on October 01, 2014, 06:32:44 pm
Extra pounds? Nonsense.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your D810 is the one carrying the extra pounds Bernard ;)


My new 7D II is going to faster, more athletic, more all-around capable, will perform more tasks ... and (best of all) she has some "new & responsive buttons" to push :o

So, yes, I am excited!  ;D

Jack
Grief, trying to prove one's personal choice of camera should also be someone's else's is one of the biggest wastes of time on photography forums. Use whatever camera suits you and be happy that other photographers like whatever camera they use.
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 01, 2014, 06:59:40 pm
Extra pounds? Nonsense.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your D810 is the one carrying the extra pounds Bernard ;)

Yes, the D810 is a heavier camera.

My new 7D II is going to faster, more athletic, more all-around capable, will perform more tasks ... and (best of all) she has some "new & responsive buttons" to push

I am genuinely happy for you John/Jack.

Please inform if you need someone to take pictures of the box openinng ceremony.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: John Koerner on October 01, 2014, 07:50:10 pm
LOL, I will do just that :)

All in fun ...
Title: Re: Canon 7D Mark II announced
Post by: BJL on October 01, 2014, 09:28:24 pm

BJL, your question wouldn't have been a question, had you bothered to read everything.

I didn't bother to answer it, because you didn't bother to read before you wrote.

You attributed the exact opposite of what I actually said, in fact: hence the image.
Time for me to give up: I not only read your post #108 in this thread, I quoted from it.  Maybe you just forgot to mention Canon's recent dynamic range disadvantage in that particular post, so forgive me not reading all of the 200+ posts in this thread before responding to one that makes a rather absurd claim.

The weird thing is that I am far more enthusiastic about the 7D II than, say, Slobodan, and I applaud Canon for realizing that photographers who seek high magnification, either long telephoto or macro, can be better off with a good quality camera in a smaller format. Or more precisely, with smaller pixels and thus higher absolute sensor resolution in lp/mm. After all, I am very happy with my micro four thirds kit, with lenses like a 60/2.8 macro, the 50-200, and a 75-300 which pretends to be a "150-600" that I can comfortably carry all day.