Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: yaya on September 08, 2014, 07:00:16 am
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Hi all,
The below Press Release has just gone out. Exciting times with Photokina starting in just 8 days! I hope to see some of you lot in Cologne!!!
TEL AVIV, September 8, 2014 -- Fourteen years since the CMOS-based 6MP Leaf C-MOST digital back was announced at Photokina 2000, Mamiya Leaf today introduced the Credo 50, a
50 megapixel CMOS-based system that gives photographers a wider range of settings -- from ISO 100 to ISO 6400 -- for greater versatility and higher performance in capturing legendary
Leaf colors under a variety of shooting conditions, including available light.
“The Leaf Credo 50 simply gives photographers more options,” said Ziv Argov, Vice President, Mamiya Leaf. “Its Sony 50 MP CMOS sensor enables full-resolution image captures up to ISO
6400. Its new image processor improves Live View performance and data flow, while expanding dynamic range to 14-stops. For wedding, portrait, fashion and action shooting, this system
delivers.”
* Live View -- The Leaf Credo 50 supports incredibly fluid high-quality live view for exact composition as well as more accurate and selective focusing, whether it is done on the digital back’s LCD, or on a computer monitor through Capture One software.
* Compelling, Clean Color Rendition -- 50 MP resolution
* Very Long Exposures -- up to One hour
* Giant Touch Screen -- 3.2” display at 1.15 megapixel resolution
* 14 f-stops dynamic range -- one shot captures retain amazing details in highlights and shadows
* Enhanced Image Processor -- faster and cleaner Live View, 2.3 GB Data Flow, 1.2 frames per second capture rate and faster read/write speeds.
Full specifications are available at: http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/credo50.html
So what’s it like shooting with the Leaf Credo 50?
Three photographers who’ve tested the system share their experiences.
“Leaf has always been known for its film-like color, which is true,” said Cameron Davidson, aerial photographer. “With the new Leaf Credo 50, I’m finding that I can shoot a high-contrast
situation and hold details in both shadows and sunlight. For aerials, I’m always facing these issues, shooting in low light and the Leaf Credo 50 is ideal for this work.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOGseLj1O8A
“The better the camera, the more options you get,” said fashion photographer Frank Doorhof. “The new Leaf Credo 50 is a system that’s great to build on. You get incredible dynamic range,
very good noise control, and a bright touch display on the back, so when you’re outside, you can easily see the images you’re shooting. You can shoot with natural light, tungsten, lightbulbs or candles -- all with amazing quality.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB4CHePhqNw
“For my project ‘New York Love Story’, I’m shooting the city from rooftops,” said Karsten Staiger, “The Leaf Credo 50 is an amazing piece of equipment. Its high dynamic range is very
important for me. Plus the ISO can go up to 6400, and the new Live View is just incredible -- I was able to zoom into the building, with a 300 mm lens, focus it and see people on the Empire
State Building. It’s just incredible the details I’m getting!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94e7ZaVm1RY
For those attending Photokina 2014 Exhibition, the new Leaf Credo 50 will be on display in Hall 04.1 at Stand B040 C048
Pricing and Availability
The Mamiya Leaf Credo 50 Digital back is priced at 26,995 USD / 19.995 EUR. A Mamiya Leaf Credo 50 system is priced at 30,995 USD / 22.995 EUR. There is a Wide-Spectrum back
option for Near IR and UV imaging. The Mamiya Leaf Credo 50 may be ordered now through Mamiya Leaf partners world wide (http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/partners.html). For existing
Mamiya Leaf customers, attractive digital back and/or camera system upgrades are available.
Shipping begins September 16, 2014.
The Mamiya Leaf Credo 50 comes with Capture One software for optimal capture, RAW image processing and image editing.
To schedule a hands-on demo of the Leaf Credo 50, please see this page: http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/arrange_for_a_demo.html
About Mamiya Leaf
Mamiya Leaf represents the combined experience and expertise of Mamiya and Leaf -- two legendary brands. Together, they represent 100 years of camera, optics and digital imaging expertise, including the launch of the world’s first commercial medium format digital camera back. Mamiya Leaf is dedicated to improving the quality of its products, technologies and services to advance the industry and support all those who are passionate about digital photography. The company serves its customers worldwide through dedicated dealers. For more
information, please see: www.mamiyaleaf.com
One of the many pictures I took while working and testing the new back...
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t31.0-8/1537844_10152419597793915_1211773876590120881_o.jpg)
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I've been shooting with this back for a few weeks and can tell you that it's an awesome back.
The back features the new 50MP Sony sensor but with the Leaf technology behind it it will give you the look you are used to from Leaf.
I used the back in several workshops, fashion shoots and we travelled through Denmark with the back (indeed that was the camera I was using).
If you're in the market for a real jump in quality in MF check out the Credo50.
You will get usable images all the way up to ISO6400 and it has the skin tones you are used to from Leaf, but it also adds speed to the system which is ideal for shooting series within a fashion shoot.
The new locking mechanism makes sure that the back stays put and can't be disconnected by accident.
I will write a more complete review in a few days on www.frankdoorhof.com
Check out the back here :
http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/credo50.html
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I've been shooting with this back for a few weeks and can tell you that it's an awesome back.
The back features the new 50MP Sony sensor but with the Leaf technology behind it it will give you the look you are used to from Leaf.
Check out the back here :
http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/credo50.html
This is a good thing to hear, even if this back is way out of my reach for the next years ( unless extraordinary events... ), one thing that i love of the Leaf backs is that they look as Digital Film. Personally this is the main reason that that divide them from 35mm DSLR, under the 33 MP.
Some even say that for this they are better even of the PhaseOne back, which i never tried tho...
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As far as my experience goes all digital back manufacturers have their own "look" even if they use the same sensor.
Look for example what Nikon is doing with the 36mp Sony sensor comparing the D810 to the A7r. Both have the same sensor but a different look.
I personally choose the Leaf back way back because of the look and the skin rendering and I've never looked back :D
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We enjoyed testing the new Credo 50 and making comparisons to the IQ250 regarding color.
I don't know when we will publish a formal article, but we have the files now. So if any of our customers would like to see them just shoot me an email.
See you at Photokina Yair!
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Great to at last see the Leaf product using the Sony sensor, attractively priced compared to IQ250 and almost the exact same price as H5D-50c, but with a bit better technical features (live view, long exposure). I guess many have waited for this to come. Should be very interesting to see differences in color rendition. Maybe it's only profiles this time around?
The D800, A7r and D810 actually have slightly different sensors, while as far as I understand all the Sony MF offers have exactly the same sensor, including CFA. IR filter can differ though, and of course the software processing pipeline.
In Capture One I guess it's possible to use IQ250 profiles with raws coming from the Credo, and the other way around? This would mean that if the sensor and hardware pipeline is equal enough you can choose if you want the Phase One or the Leaf look, regardless if you own an IQ250 or a Credo 50.
Doug's side-by-side testing could provide an answer to that.
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Doug's side-by-side testing could provide an answer to that.
Indeed.
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V-mount? ...at three times the price of a CFV-50c? ??? ...Good luck! ;D
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V-mount? ...at three times the price of a CFV-50c? ??? ...Good luck! ;D
A street price of $26,990 vs $15,500 is not remotely three times. Moreover many will be upgrading to this from an existing Leaf back where they will pay much less than that street price. You'd need to speak to a Hassy dealer to get upgrade pricing to a CFV-50c, but the upgrade pricing we can provide to a Leaf back is quite attractive.
Whatever premium remains:
- The ability to rotate the back to take native-vertical shots in addition to native-horizontal (the CFV-50c cannot be rotated)
- USB3 (as well as FW800)
- Retina resolution screen
- High Speed touch-screen user interface
- Customizable exposure warning
- Live view available on the LCD, no tethering required
The Leaf color comes free :).
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it's still good luck! :D honestly! :o
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Doug:
I got a bit confused on this:
- The ability to rotate the back to take native-vertical shots in addition to native-horizontal (the CFV-50c cannot be rotated)
Rotate the back, where, on a DF+ or tech solution, or does the chip rotate like some of the earlier leaf backs offered.
Thanks
Paul
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I would assume that the Credo 50 is the same as the previous generation of Credo backs.
On Hasselblad V and Hy6 they could no longer be rotated (as the Leaf Aptus-II backs) but they could be mounted both horizontally and vertically.
OK for indoors usage IMO, no ideal for outdoors shooting.
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Hasselblad's CFV-50c lacks live view stand-alone, a pretty huge disappointment for being a CMOS back. I guess someone could put in $10k extra for a Credo 50 just to get that live view for the V-mount, but more likely wait until Hasselblad sorts it out, which probably requires new back hardware though...
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JV,
Thanks, I missed the mounted on Hasselblad, body issue.
Paul
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This is excellent news! I've been hoping Leaf would could out with the CMOS Credo. Will it be available in the Hy6 mount?
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This is excellent news! I've been hoping Leaf would could out with the CMOS Credo. Will it be available in the Hy6 mount?
Only if Leica will bring out an adapter that will allow the 6xxx/HY6 lenses to work with full dedication on the Leica S... 8)
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Hasselblad's CFV-50c lacks live view stand-alone, a pretty huge disappointment for being a CMOS back...
I think there's a reasonable chance this will be added via a firmware update.
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...Good luck!
If I was buying a cmos digital back (I'm not)*, and I ran the numbers off the top of my head, given that I have 4 contax bodies, 6 finders, 35, 45, 55, 80 120, 140 lenses (twice for backup) two Leaf backs would cost me 50k U.S.
If I scratched everything and went with the Pentax and needed double everything, I'd be 20k for cameras, probably 30 or so for glass and other stuff, so the costs would be a wash or a little higher with the Pentax and of course with Leaf I'd
have a phone number of who to call, professional software since I use my contax fast lenses and waist level finders, along with a Leica S2 that cost me less than even the Pentax.
So the pricing for the new credo doesn't sound "that" bad, though like everyone I'd rather see it at 15k.
For me and our present work, where the bottom falls out with high priced still cameras, the Pentax included) is for 25k I can add another RED, which will get more use for my work than any medium format camera, or . . . 3 more HMI's which definitely will get more use.
What I have to assume is the Leaf/Phase people know what they're doing and I don't think they're just thinking let's see what we can get away with, I assume they know what it costs to make a digital back and price it accordingly for the professional.
Which makes me wonder is Pentax making a profit off their camera, hoping to make it up on lens sales, or is there a huge economy of scale going on?
Either way I wish them all well.
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*Though I think there is nothing wrong with a cmos back, I kind if miss the point, as to me a still camera with a lot of pixels in a 43 format is usually for slower more contemplative imagery.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/medium_format_use.jpg)
The first two of these images were shot with fairly low light, around 800 iso. I never really think of needing 3200 iso for a larger, slower camera, but other image makers will differ in their needs.
50mp cmos wouldn't have changed these images one bit and for faster, more lifestyle work, I'd probably go with a smaller more flexible, faster system.
IMO
BC
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*Though I think there is nothing wrong with a cmos back, I kind if miss the point, as to me a still camera with a lot of pixels in a 43 format is usually for slower more contemplative imagery.
Hi, could you use a stop more dynamic range, live view?
Cheers,
Bart
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Hi, could you use a stop more dynamic range, live view?
Cheers,
Bart
+1 hour capture (for leaf), +MS ability for Hasselblad (they just announced all new 50MS and 200MS based on the Sony Cmos sensor). The thing is none provides all those features on an open system back and additionally, the sensor size and the small pixels. Makers like to provide things in steps... Lets see what Leica/Sinar will have to say about this.
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With my limited perspective of electronics and of semiconductor pricing, I see nothing special about the Pentax pricing. Ricoh have been a mainstream electronics company for a long time - they are not known as a charity; the Pentax brand is known for competence and many pros have used their MF products in film days; in fact quite a few forum members find that some of their old lenses are usable with the Z. There may be reasons justifying the Phase and Hassy price point, but I don't see them. Maybe as you say it's the fact that they are "professional", or that they work with the same dealers, or that they tether to existing bulletproof software.
Edmund
If I was buying a cmos digital back (I'm not)*, and I ran the numbers off the top of my head, given that I have 4 contax bodies, 6 finders, 35, 45, 55, 80 120, 140 lenses (twice for backup) two Leaf backs would cost me 50k U.S.
If I scratched everything and went with the Pentax and needed double everything, I'd be 20k for cameras, probably 30 or so for glass and other stuff, so the costs would be a wash or a little higher with the Pentax and of course with Leaf I'd
have a phone number of who to call, professional software since I use my contax fast lenses and waist level finders, along with a Leica S2 that cost me less than even the Pentax.
So the pricing for the new credo doesn't sound "that" bad, though like everyone I'd rather see it at 15k.
For me and our present work, where the bottom falls out with high priced still cameras, the Pentax included) is for 25k I can add another RED, which will get more use for my work than any medium format camera, or . . . 3 more HMI's which definitely will get more use.
What I have to assume is the Leaf/Phase people know what they're doing and I don't think they're just thinking let's see what we can get away with, I assume they know what it costs to make a digital back and price it accordingly for the professional.
Which makes me wonder is Pentax making a profit off their camera, hoping to make it up on lens sales, or is there a huge economy of scale going on?
Either way I wish them all well.
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*Though I think there is nothing wrong with a cmos back, I kind if miss the point, as to me a still camera with a lot of pixels in a 43 format is usually for slower more contemplative imagery.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/medium_format_use.jpg)
The first two of these images were shot with fairly low light, around 800 iso. I never really think of needing 3200 iso for a larger, slower camera, but other image makers will differ in their needs.
50mp cmos wouldn't have changed these images one bit and for faster, more lifestyle work, I'd probably go with a smaller more flexible, faster system.
IMO
BC
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Hi, could you use a stop more dynamic range, live view?
Cheers,
Bart
No.
I'd like a better, more film like look, less roll your own in post and really really really like to be able to point a camera into the sun with the subject in the foreground and get that beautiful lens flare film produced rather than the abrupt cut off of digital and most would call that more dynamic range, I think it's just the way digital works, except for the RED.
My RED's will do that, allow me to shoot with that soft lens flare and look very pretty, but overall when it comes to dynamic range, it's the role of a professional to learn how to control it with lighting, positioning, shooting at the right moment in the right place.
It seems to me that people and the camera makers want to find a machine that anyone can point in a scene, regardless of the ratios, take a snap and hold everything, but that's not how crafted photography works and having that ability doesn't change anything in my life.
That's why I showed work from these old cameras. By the charts, blogs, sales messages you'd think if you didn't buy the latest camera you couldn't make a photograph worth showing and that's so very far from reality.
BTW: With the REDs that truly have 14 stops of useable data, we crush the heck out of them in post to give a film like look. Does having it help . . . sometimes, but usually not.
IMO
BC
P.S. I have a friend that's financially well off and took a holiday with his spouse. He photographed her, mostly backlit and he should have really used a fill card because her head was blown away on 1/2 of the images.
He asked me if I could fix them and I had two retouch teams, then I put weeks into these photographs rebuilding them piece by piece and btw: he had the latest and greatest cameras made as to him, what most of us spend on cameras he finds laying around in the creases of his sofa.
Bottom line . . . we saved the images, they were presentable enough to run in world publication, but he could have shot them with my old 1ds, or a canon 5d, heck maybe an i phone and the results would have been the same. Those claimed 12 stops didn't do anything, neither would 14, though at the time he was positive it would.
Funny thing is, he was holding 75 grand of cameras, but had he just bought one sheet of foam core or a 12' umbrella and paid some kid 200 bucks to hold it he would have had stunning images, because the setting, composition and subject were exceptional.
Instead, he believed the camera brochure.
Sometimes it takes just a little more thought, a lot less money.
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For several years i read many times that one of reasons for the huge prices in DMF (huge sensors...huge costs)
The base bodys of the Phase One are from the days of mamiya 645AF, the bodys of the H hasselblad are from the Fuji 645 AF, i know that those company's are making a huge effort and a great job for the digital medium format system, thanks for that as a photographer. But the only brand that launch a new base 645 body not a upgrade one are the cheap one...Pentax
But please, please can anyone justify or just explain me with some number or real facts why 3 or 4 systems based on the same 50MP Cmos sensor with 1.3x crop factor are so different in prices ? i know that are different backs, different brands with different costs - BUT 20.000$ difference from just a Credo 50 back, to new generation R&D body 645 system and 50MP CMOS sensor for the 645Z ???
- Pentax 645Z 50 MP CMOS Medium Format DSLR Camera BODY - NO LENS - $8,496.95
- Hasselblad H5D-50c Medium Format DSLR BODY - NO LENS - $27,500.00
- Hasselblad CFV-50c - JUST BACK - $15.000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back -JUST BACK NO BODY - $27,000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back Kit with 645DF + f/2.8 80mm LS AF Lens - $30,995.00
- Mamiya 645DF+ Medium Format DSLR Camera (Body Only No LENS NO BACK NO SENSOR) - $6.000
I don´t have anything against a good company with a good product make good profit, but in this case with the same sensor, and this differences i just like to understand those price ranges in DMF, for me in the past i just could effort to by used 39MP DMF format systems under 8k now finaly its possible to buy a 50MP DMF for 10k !!!
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For several years i read many times that one of reasons for the huge prices in DMF (huge sensors...huge costs)
The base bodys of the Phase One are from the days of mamiya 645AF, the bodys of the H hasselblad are from the Fuji 645 AF, i know that those company's are making a huge effort and a great job for the digital medium format system, thanks for that as a photographer. But the only brand that launch a new base 645 body not a upgrade one are the cheap one...Pentax
But please, please can anyone justify or just explain me with some number or real facts why 3 or 4 systems based on the same 50MP Cmos sensor with 1.3x crop factor are so different in prices ? i know that are different backs, different brands with different costs - BUT 20.000$ difference from just a back, to 645Z ???
- Pentax 645Z 50 MP CMOS Medium Format DSLR Camera BODY - NO LENS - $8,496.95
- Hasselblad H5D-50c Medium Format DSLR BODY - NO LENS - $27,500.00
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back -JUST BACK NO BODY - $27,000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back Kit with 645DF + f/2.8 80mm LS AF Lens - $30,995.00
- Mamiya 645DF+ Medium Format DSLR Camera (Body Only No LENS NO BACK) - $6.000
I don´t have anything against a good company with a good product make good profit, but in this case with the same sensor, and this differences i just like to understand those price ranges in DMF
And additionally the Pentax has better high ISO as well :)
I quite honestly don't think Phase and Hasselblad see Pentax as a competitor…
And for that arrogance they deserve to get their collective asses kicked!!
I sincerely hope Pentax does well and that it reshapes the MF market. In my opinion it is very much needed.
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And additionally the Pentax has better high ISO as well :)
I quite honestly don't think Phase and Hasselblad see Pentax as a competitor…
And for that arrogance they deserve to get their collective asses kicked!!
I sincerely hope Pentax does well and that it reshapes the MF market. In my opinion it is very much needed.
They will do well... and they'll do even better if alongside the Z, they'll split the Z in two... a body and a back... and then make the (surely cheaper than the Z) back available for "the usual suspects"! That will really heart the competition but more than that, it will fill Ricoh pockets up.
Hey you guys in Pentax... please consider an interchangeable finder for the stand alone body and perhaps pay a visit to Zeiss premises in Tokyo for some resurrection of the C645 glass? 8)
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Pentax is Missing Leaf Shutter lenses (and more/better new lens choices), better tethering implementation and MUCH better service and support (expect to be without your camera 10 weeks if it needs service/repair). That last one is a HUGE deal for professionals or anyone who would not like to be without their gear for two months should anything go wrong.
IF Pentax fixes those things then the 645Z will basically be in a position kill the others among a good chunk of buyers. But I don't see that happening soon.
The Leaf Credo 50 / Phase IQ250 back will still be the best choice for those who want a removable back to be used on a wide range of systems with solid service and support (including software). No other option there.
I like the Hasselblad system but it seems moronic that they keep using a crappy screen on a new back/dslr system. I mean, its 2014 people, get with the program!
The Leica S system is solid and with the rumored 50mp CMOS Leica S almost out, the system should continue to be a player for many more years.
All in all its great to have so many choices.
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expect to be without your camera 10 weeks if it needs service/repair
Ken,
I really feel this is a little bit unfair...
Given 30 minutes of Google time I am pretty sure I can come up with similar horror stories for Phase, Leaf, Hasselblad and Leica. And for Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc.
Also, the Leaf back is more than 3x the price of a Pentax 645Z and that is without the DF body, so you can easily buy a second 645Z body and still have more than $10K spare…
The main reasons to not invest in Pentax 645Z are in my opinion:
-) lack of leaf shutter lenses for fast flash synch
-) lack of robust tethering
-) lack of a removable back for tech cam usage
-) already being too deeply invested in another system
If none of this applies the Pentax 645Z is in my opinion a no-brainer if you want to shoot MF digital.
Best, Joris.
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For several years i read many times that one of reasons for the huge prices in DMF (huge sensors...huge costs)
That was a smoke screen. Huge sensors are costly indeed, and even the Pentax 645z is not a cheap camera, but Phase One products costs at least $20k more than they would need with a different business model. The business model is the reason. High cost sales channels with work-intensive sales, reaching only a small market. As far as I understand Phase One makes quite some money too, so they probably have a quite fat profit margin on top that customers obviously accept.
The products has so far not had much mass-market appeal. The 645z works just as any DSLR, and you don't really need a dealer-education to understand how to use and make the best of the camera, or at least you don't expect that you get that but you need to find out for yourself. The traditional digital MF systems are a bit more narrow in use case and gain more from having someone that can educate the customer. They are often released a bit early too so they may have all sorts of hickups before firmware has been fixed, and obviously you need to have a good dealer contact to pass this period without too much pain. It's difficult to change business model. However, Hasselblad has kind of opened up for that by selling their cameras through places like B&H... so I don't know maybe there will be as shift towards broader and more cost-effective sales channels.
With CMOS sensors and better bodies the MF cameras get more mass-market appeal, which could make this possible. Of course, you'd lose service compared to today, so it's not only advantages. Oh well, I personally prefer having a product that works and is well documented and has a healthy user community accessible through forums like this than having a sales person call me now and then to try make me upgrade, but that's maybe just me.
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Nice back indeed,
but the price...
I think Leaf would make a big step to make the most popular back ( like Phase one 45 was) when the price would be like this of Hasselblad cvf 50c. This would make medium format itself really interesting for much wider groups of users, not only for commercial photographers.
But now the price is twice then the cvf 50 c.
The big price differences between between Pentax 645z, CVF50 c and Leaf 50 c (same Sony chip, same possible image quality) cant be justified, even with big edvertising promotion.
A back only solution open for all systems with this sony chip an Live view for the price of the whole Pentax 645 z is realistic to produce.
The company who will go this way first could be the winner in this game. Maybe someone from Pentax read this forum...