Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Some Guy on August 16, 2014, 11:08:49 am
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I acquired a lot of Press 40 clear flashbulbs so I decided to use them with a Nikon D800.
I'm bouncing them into a large umbrella through a blue filter, similar to a Kodak 80C to Daylight balance them as they are clear bulbs (It's a Lee #202 in an embroidery hoop ahead of the bulb in a 5" diameter clamp-on hardware store reflector).
My Minolta Flash-meter IV says f/5.6 at 10 feet at 1/8 second, which amounts to a GN 56.
My own attempt shows best exposure at f/1.4 at 7 feet against the above which is underexposing, or a GN 10. Flash-meter sitting there says f/5.6 again and differing by 3 stops.
Question is: "If the Minolta meter is right for f/5.6, yet I am underexposing by maybe 3 stops or f/1.4, can it be the Nikon shutter is maybe firing at some point on the bulb's curve, partially? If the shutter leads, or maybe closes ahead of the bulb?"
I got this graphic of the bulb's curve:
(http://www.flashbulbs.com/images/philips/PH-2-b.jpg)
and was wondering about the 42ms shutter lag time of the Nikon and if that is playing into the curve someplace. If so how do I correct it? I guess I could set the shutter for maybe 2 seconds at night and see if the lag is due to it closing too soon, but don't know if it is opening ahead of the bulb.
I am assuming the Nikon's contacts close when the shutter is fully open and not some time delay so the bulb should fire later than the shutter in all cases, but don't know since Nikon does that i-TTL and pre-flash stuff. I don't know how the contacts timing operate. I am wired via the remote sync and cord for the flashbulb.
Thanks for any help.
SG
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I acquired a lot of Press 40 clear flashbulbs so I decided to use them with a Nikon D800.
I'm bouncing them into a large umbrella through a blue filter, similar to a Kodak 80C to Daylight balance them as they are clear bulbs (It's a Lee #202 in an embroidery hoop ahead of the bulb in a 5" diameter clamp-on hardware store reflector).
My Minolta Flash-meter IV says f/5.6 at 10 feet at 1/8 second, which amounts to a GN 56.
My own attempt shows best exposure at f/1.4 at 7 feet against the above which is underexposing, or a GN 10. Flash-meter sitting there says f/5.6 again and differing by 3 stops.
Question is: "If the Minolta meter is right for f/5.6, yet I am underexposing by maybe 3 stops or f/1.4, can it be the Nikon shutter is maybe firing at some point on the bulb's curve, partially? If the shutter leads, or maybe closes ahead of the bulb?"
I got this graphic of the bulb's curve:
(http://www.flashbulbs.com/images/philips/PH-2-b.jpg)
and was wondering about the 42ms shutter lag time of the Nikon and if that is playing into the curve someplace. If so how do I correct it? I guess I could set the shutter for maybe 2 seconds at night and see if the lag is due to it closing too soon, but don't know if it is opening ahead of the bulb.
I am assuming the Nikon's contacts close when the shutter is fully open and not some time delay so the bulb should fire later than the shutter in all cases, but don't know since Nikon does that i-TTL and pre-flash stuff. I don't know how the contacts timing operate. I am wired via the remote sync and cord for the flashbulb.
Thanks for any help.
SG
Why are you doing this? It's a waste of time. No, you cannot correct this! Modern camera equipment is set up to synchronize with electronic flash only!
Flashbulbs were made in two basic types, "focal plane" ("FP") and "regular" ("M").
http://www.bonanza.com/items/like/94489165/Flashbulbs-Sylvania-Focal-Plane-26B-Blue-Dot-Flashbulbs-12-Pack (http://www.bonanza.com/items/like/94489165/Flashbulbs-Sylvania-Focal-Plane-26B-Blue-Dot-Flashbulbs-12-Pack)
The difference is how long the flashbulb burned ("FP" flashbulbs had a longer "burn" time, probably achieved by varying the length, alloy, or thickness of the filaments). Shutters had a delay built-in for use with flashbulbs, whereas electronic flash had virtually no delay. Look at an old camera and see there are two flash synch outlets, usually "X" and "M" or "FP".
Here is an old Pentax, with two flash outlets, one for FP flashbulbs and one for electronic flash ("X"):
http://chemicalcameras.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/dsc028511.jpg (http://chemicalcameras.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/dsc028511.jpg)
Here is a later Pentax, with only one flash terminal, "X":
http://www.adorama.com/alc/files/c4091f493fdebe98ef095a5209949342.jpg (http://www.adorama.com/alc/files/c4091f493fdebe98ef095a5209949342.jpg)
Such a camera cannot synch with flashbulbs of any kind!
In your case, the Nikon shutter is opening and closing before the flashbulb is burning much at all!
Leaf shutters used "M" for flashbulbs and used "regular" flashbulbs. Since the entire area of the image is exposed at once with a leaf shutter, "regular" flashbulbs were fine. Focal-plane shutters do not expose the entire film plane at once, but "wipe" across it in about 1/60 to 1/100 second. This is why the top synch speed for electronic flash is so low with focal-plane shutters.
http://drjlists.home.comcast.net/~drjlists/Flash_Bulbs.htm (http://drjlists.home.comcast.net/~drjlists/Flash_Bulbs.htm)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_synchronization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_synchronization)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_(photography) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_(photography))
Focal-plane shutters never could synch with M-class flashbulbs, and modern cameras cannot synch with flashbulbs of any kind!
The only way to use these flashbulbs is in a time-exposure situation. Synchronized flash with them is impossible for the reasons given above. So, throw them away.
http://www.flashbulbs.com/flash_info.htm (http://www.flashbulbs.com/flash_info.htm)
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Hi
If you do set them off make sure you check the pink/blue spot the blue dot will go pink if there is a fault in the envelope if its pink be prepared for a bang .
Oh and use a glove inc ase of a short.
Use them on B to light large interiors .
Jon
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Some Guy:
I guess you should experiment with longer shutter speeds? Also, why lose 2-3 stops with filtering the light? If you shoot in RAW, you can easily correct for this in Post!
Happy Flashing! ;-)
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Some Guy:
I guess you should experiment with longer shutter speeds?
That won't help! These bulbs are useless except for time exposures!
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Some Guy:
I guess you should experiment with longer shutter speeds? Also, why lose 2-3 stops with filtering the light? If you shoot in RAW, you can easily correct for this in Post!
Happy Flashing! ;-)
No, if he does not filter the flash at the source it will be of a different color temp than the rest of the light. This cannot be corrected! This is a waste of time!
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This is a waste of time!
It may be, but this thread made for good reading. Thanks.
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No, if he does not filter the flash at the source it will be of a different color temp than the rest of the light.
This assumes there is any other light.
I've used flashbulbs a lot in the past for cave photography, no other light there.
In that situation not using any sort of filter to get the most light output makes complete sense.
Certainly shutter synchronization is probably the cause of the OP's problems in this case, you should be seeing GNs over maybe 200 or more depending on ISO http://www.flashbulbs.com/clearbulbs.htm
It's really not worth trying to use them for modern general flash work, electronic guns are easier, cheaper and more versatile and reliable for most use.
But flashbulbs certainly aren't rubbish or to be thrown away, there remain a small minority of photographers who can use these rare items to good purpose. If you haven't a pressing need for this sort of high output device, pop them on eBay so someone who really can utilise them can buy them from you.
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This assumes there is any other light.
I've used flashbulbs a lot in the past for cave photography, no other light there.
In that situation not using any sort of filter to get the most light output makes complete sense.
Certainly shutter synchronization is probably the cause of the OP's problems in this case, you should be seeing GNs over maybe 200 or more depending on ISO http://www.flashbulbs.com/clearbulbs.htm
It's really not worth trying to use them for modern general flash work, electronic guns are easier, cheaper and more versatile and reliable for most use.
But flashbulbs certainly aren't rubbish or to be thrown away, there remain a small minority of photographers who can use these rare items to good purpose. If you haven't a pressing need for this sort of high output device, pop them on eBay so someone who really can utilise them can buy them from you.
Well, yes, but he was not indicating he would be using them in isolation.
Sure, they may have value for cave photography, which is a species of time exposure, as I said. Other than that (time exposures), they are of no value, as modern cameras cannot be synchronized to them.
If you have an old Graflex they may come in handy though!
http://www.meggaflash.com/meggaflash-bulbs (http://www.meggaflash.com/meggaflash-bulbs)
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Sure, they may have value for cave photography,.....
Not just that. Photographing big industrial interiors is another case, as is after dark landscape and architectural photography.
Flashbulbs can deliver a huge amount light without needing expensive hardware or power supplies.
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Update:
Okay, I got them (Wabash Press #40) to work with a Nikon D800E. Problem with the Press #40 bulbs is they need to fire ahead of the Nikon shutter's lag which is around 43ms if the auto-focus is locked into manual mode. The bulb's ignite around 5ms and max. burn peak is around 20-25 ms or so. Nikon is a bit slow at 43ms so you will end up on the tail end of the bulb's burn curve (And underexposing maybe 3-4 stops) if you sync via their banana jack cable (Plus, you need the AF and metering 5 volt voltage to even get to the shutter trip signal as well.).
If I try and use the last flashbulb maker's in the world's bulbs (i.e. Meggaflash PF-330 @ $75 each out of Roger George in Hollywood, CA.) they need to lag behind the Nikon shutter's firing by almost 0.36 seconds or more before they hit maximum brightness. The old Press #40 bulbs fire faster than the newer #33 series bulbs (Sylvania or Meggaflash) do and need to be fired ahead of the Nikon 43ms shutter lag. The new Meggaflash bulbs that have a burn duration of almost 2 seconds long (Try that with an electronic flash! It won't work with any of them!) need a different timing sequence. I thought about using an electronic flash, but even if they are firing at 1/300 second each in full power, it would take 300 studio units in sequence to make for a one-second exposure verses an old flash bulb that can burn for 2 seconds, although it cost you $75 a shot too. So compare 300 studio units to a few $75 bulbs (or half that on old eBay Sylvania FF-33 bulb stock) and examine the cost differential.
Anyway, the Press #40 bulbs are working now "leading" the Nikon shutter lag and agree with the flash meter since the shutter sync issue has been addressed and fixed via an external microprocessor and timing relays. I have a GN=45 for what reflector I use with them and a Lee #201 CC filter for a 5,200K number. The Megga's may get me up to around 4 times that GN due to their longer burn duration of 2 seconds. However, it takes a microprocessor and relay set to do so for flash sync with the new digital cameras and some programming work, but it now works perfectly without high currents of the trigger capacitor for the bulb blowing out the camera's circuit boards since it is all relay controlled. Results are a much higher GN than any electronic flash can provide. One needs to use a color correction filter like some Lee #201 or #202 to balance them to daylight Kelvin though. With the PF-330, my GN might hit 1,000 with the reflector and CC #202 filter. No consumer electronic or studio flash can touch that.
And as one posted above, they do use them for caves and mines, fast moving water or waterfalls (Electronic flash results in a double-exposure at slow (water-blur) shutter speeds), as well as the high-speed auto crash cameras that run about 10,000 frames per second. Electronic flash cannot do that, but the old bulb stuff still can - and it does, if you can sync it all up with digital.
SG
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Not just that. Photographing big industrial interiors is another case, as is after dark landscape and architectural photography.
Flashbulbs can deliver a huge amount light without needing expensive hardware or power supplies.
As I said, time exposures!
But they cannot be used as syncho-flash!
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Update:
Okay, I got them (Wabash Press #40) to work with a Nikon D800E. Problem with the Press #40 bulbs is they need to fire ahead of the Nikon shutter's lag which is around 43ms if the auto-focus is locked into manual mode. The bulb's ignite around 5ms and max. burn peak is around 20-25 ms or so. Nikon is a bit slow at 43ms so you will end up on the tail end of the bulb's burn curve (And underexposing maybe 3-4 stops) if you sync via their banana jack cable (Plus, you need the AF and metering 5 volt voltage to even get to the shutter trip signal as well.).
If I try and use the last flashbulb maker's in the world's bulbs (i.e. Meggaflash PF-330 @ $75 each out of Roger George in Hollywood, CA.) they need to lag behind the Nikon shutter's firing by almost 0.36 seconds or more before they hit maximum brightness.
NO!!!! they need to fire ahead of the shutter! ALL flashbulbs take a long time after ignition to burn and reach peak brightness, and focal-plane bulbs burn longer after that, so the shutter has to be delayed, not the bulbs!
The old Press #40 bulbs fire faster than the newer #33 series bulbs (Sylvania or Meggaflash) do and need to be fired ahead of the Nikon 43ms shutter lag.
No! Your information is wrong. There is no shutter lag at all with X synch, which is the only kind incorporated into modern cameras.
The new Meggaflash bulbs that have a burn duration of almost 2 seconds long (Try that with an electronic flash! It won't work with any of them!) need a different timing sequence.
What are you talking about? No flashbulb burns that long!
I thought about using an electronic flash, but even if they are firing at 1/300 second each in full power, it would take 300 studio units in sequence to make for a one-second exposure verses an old flash bulb that can burn for 2 seconds, although it cost you $75 a shot too. So compare 300 studio units to a few $75 bulbs (or half that on old eBay Sylvania FF-33 bulb stock) and examine the cost differential.
This makes no sense at all. What are you talking about?
Anyway, the Press #40 bulbs are working now "leading" the Nikon shutter lag and agree with the flash meter since the shutter sync issue has been addressed and fixed via an external microprocessor and timing relays. I have a GN=45 for what reflector I use with them and a Lee #201 CC filter for a 5,200K number. The Megga's may get me up to around 4 times that GN due to their longer burn duration of 2 seconds. However, it takes a microprocessor and relay set to do so for flash sync with the new digital cameras and some programming work, but it now works perfectly without high currents of the trigger capacitor for the bulb blowing out the camera's circuit boards since it is all relay controlled. Results are a much higher GN than any electronic flash can provide. One needs to use a color correction filter like some Lee #201 or #202 to balance them to daylight Kelvin though. With the PF-330, my GN might hit 1,000 with the reflector and CC #202 filter. No consumer electronic or studio flash can touch that.
And as one posted above, they do use them for caves and mines, fast moving water or waterfalls (Electronic flash results in a double-exposure at slow (water-blur) shutter speeds), as well as the high-speed auto crash cameras that run about 10,000 frames per second. Electronic flash cannot do that, but the old bulb stuff still can - and it does, if you can sync it all up with digital.
SG
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What are you talking about? No flashbulb burns that long!
Well to the nearest decimal point two seconds burn time is correct. See :- http://www.meggaflash.com/meggaflash-bulbs/pf330-flashbulb
This makes no sense at all. What are you talking about?
Maybe you need to learn a little bit more about flashbulb technology yourself before being so dismissive.
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Well to the nearest decimal point two seconds burn time is correct. See :- http://www.meggaflash.com/meggaflash-bulbs/pf330-flashbulbMaybe you need to learn a little bit more about flashbulb technology yourself before being so dismissive.
I knew all about it in the old days.
The bulbs you mentioned (the Press 40s) are not like that. That's the type I thought we were discussing. You cannot use them as synchro-flash with the current type of cameras, which have only "X" synch.
The only way to use the Press 40 flashbulbs is with time exposures.
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I knew all about it in the old days...... That's the type I thought we were discussing.
Comment on what people write.
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Comment on what people write.
Sorry, I missed that detail.
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NO!!!! they need to fire ahead of the shutter! ALL flashbulbs take a long time after ignition to burn and reach peak brightness, and focal-plane bulbs burn longer after that, so the shutter has to be delayed, not the bulbs!
No! Your information is wrong. There is no shutter lag at all with X synch, which is the only kind incorporated into modern cameras.
What are you talking about? No flashbulb burns that long!
This makes no sense at all. What are you talking about?
Wow! You really need to look into the spec's of what I posted and pay attention. I'm doing it now and proving my results. Are you? Your theory, and what happens in practice and use, do not mix.
Fact:
Nikon D800E shutter lag is 43ms without AF engaged. If you engage AF, then maybe 250 ms or whatever variable time it takes for the lens to lock-on AF, but I am in manual mode to circumvent that. So 43ms it is for the shutter lag number once into Manual mode.
If you saw the first curve I posted, it takes about 5ms for the #40 bulb to ignite, and then about 20ms to hit full burn. Then goes dark in about 50ms. If you use the Nikon remote via their 10 pin and their cord, the metering and AF signal activates the shutter first (and required too), and then the lag until the mirror flips out of the way and the shutter is fully open which occurs 43ms later. Hence the flash bulb does need to lead the Nikon D800E shutter release using their cabling and not shoeing it all.
I am not using the hot shoe, nor their PC outlet as it might not take the amperage to fire the bulb with the 220uf trigger capacitor running off a 15 volt battery. Don't know if a 220uf @ 15 volts as a short of the bulb's trigger capacitor will fry the camera's internals so it has been isolated via separate relays. Been there already, and why I started this post.
I was getting severe underexposure as the bulb was firing on the tail-end of the shutter's lag timing. Hence the flash meter and my trial GN test exposures did not match and images were underexposed - a lot. It is now fixed via a microprocessor timing to fire the bulb "ahead" of the shutter release signal for the #40 bulbs. I needed to re-program the microprocessor delay from the FF-33 or PF-330 bulbs ramp-up to maximum burn delay for the #40 bulbs, since they have a very long ramp up to maximum burn of about 400ms. In short, I'm now tripping the shutter ahead of the bulb. For the Meggaflash/Sylvania bulbs, the opposite occurs to fire the bulb far later than the shutter (or where I came from.).
The Meggaflash PF-330 specs are here: http://www.meggaflash.com/meggaflash-bulbs/pf330-flashbulb (http://www.meggaflash.com/meggaflash-bulbs/pf330-flashbulb) Notice the 400ms lag time to peak burn, way behind the Nikon 43ms lag, or subtract that from 400ms making the flash trigger at 357ms. Plus notice the extreme duration burn time of almost "TWO SECONDS" once fired (Okay, 1.75ms is good enough.). The Meggaflash PF-330 is a copy of the old discontinued Sylvania FF-33 bulbs that are a perfect spec's match. Notice too the extreme output of 140,000 lumen seconds.
All this flash bulb control stuff needs to be done via a microprocessor now if ones use the Nikon 10 pin remote cable like the MC-30A, or their banana lead (MC-22) one.
Like I said, I'm doing it and now proving it to myself as well as the flash meter which now agrees with the theoretical guide numbers and the test photos. I made the error of sync'ing it all up later (Prepared for the FF-33 bulbs) and got me here to ask. Since then, I've learned I was in error and on the tail end of the #40 bulb burn and why the Press #40 bulbs must be fired "ahead" of the shutter lag in the Nikon via the cabling since they cable parallel off to a shutter trip relay as well as the flash bulb relay. If the bulbs goes dark around 50ms after ignition, and the shutter lag is 43 ms, you got little to nothing like I had.
Luckily, the microprocessor control timer I am using (Radio Shack Uno and a Seed Relay Shield v2.0, fwiw.) allows me to set a fixed microsecond timing occurrence to either lead or lag the Nikon shutter relay to address it. With the Meggaflash PF-330 or Sylvania FF-33 discontinued flashbulbs, it must occur long 'after' the shutter lag time to hit their peak burn. With the faster Press #40 bulbs, the shutter relay lag of 43ms needs to get going 'ahead' of the flash relay before it trips the #40 as it only takes 5ms to get them going - else you got squat like I did prior.
Neat part of the Arduino Uno relay's circuit board is the LED's that are visible on it as to the relay's (both shutter and flash relays) operation. The shutter relay trips ahead of the flash relay for the #40 bulbs. The opposite occurs for the Meggaflash bulbs - and it is a much longer visible LED delay too. You can actually tailor whatever bulbs you want in a digital camera, just it takes some timing control which I've also done - aside from my mistake of assuming the shutter lag matter on the Nikon compared to the Meggaflash/Sylvaniseries 33 curves and the older Wabash Press #40 ignition curves which are very different animals that got me here.
SG
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Wow! You really need to look into the spec's of what I posted and pay attention. I'm doing it now and proving my results. Are you? Your theory, and what happens in practice and use, do not mix.
Fact:
Nikon D800E shutter lag is 43ms without AF engaged. If you engage AF, then maybe 250 ms or whatever variable time it takes for the lens to lock-on AF, but I am in manual mode to circumvent that. So 43ms it is for the shutter lag number once into Manual mode.
If you saw the first curve I posted, it takes about 5ms for the #40 bulb to ignite, and then about 20ms to hit full burn. Then goes dark in about 50ms. If you use the Nikon remote via their 10 pin and their cord, the metering and AF signal activates the shutter first (and required too), and then the lag until the mirror flips out of the way and the shutter is fully open which occurs 43ms later. Hence the flash bulb does need to lead the Nikon D800E shutter release using their cabling and not shoeing it all.
I am not using the hot shoe, nor their PC outlet as it might not take the amperage to fire the bulb with the 220uf trigger capacitor running off a 15 volt battery. Don't know if a 220uf @ 15 volts as a short of the bulb's trigger capacitor will fry the camera's internals so it has been isolated via separate relays. Been there already, and why I started this post.
I was getting severe underexposure as the bulb was firing on the tail-end of the shutter's lag timing.
No, the reverse! The "delay" is counted from the sending of the electric signal, not autofocus! The shutter is going off before the flash bulb reaches its peak brightness, not after! Autofocus has nothing to do with it! The connection to fire the flash comes only after autofocus is attained!
Hence the flash meter and my trial GN test exposures did not match and images were underexposed - a lot.
No! no! no!
It is now fixed via a microprocessor timing to fire the bulb "ahead" of the shutter release signal for the #40 bulbs.
No, it won't help! The flash burns too quickly and does not provide light for the entire length of the exposure with a focal-plane shutter!
I needed to re-program the microprocessor delay from the FF-33 or PF-330 bulbs ramp-up to maximum burn delay for the #40 bulbs, since they have a very long ramp up to maximum burn of about 400ms. In short, I'm now tripping the shutter ahead of the bulb. For the Meggaflash/Sylvania bulbs, the opposite occurs to fire the bulb far later than the shutter (or where I came from.).
The Meggaflash PF-330 specs are here: http://www.meggaflash.com/meggaflash-bulbs/pf330-flashbulb (http://www.meggaflash.com/meggaflash-bulbs/pf330-flashbulb) Notice the 400ms lag time to peak burn, way behind the Nikon 43ms lag, or subtract that from 400ms making the flash trigger at 357ms. Plus notice the extreme duration burn time of almost "TWO SECONDS" once fired (Okay, 1.75ms is good enough.). The Meggaflash PF-330 is a copy of the old discontinued Sylvania FF-33 bulbs that are a perfect spec's match. Notice too the extreme output of 140,000 lumen seconds.
All this flash bulb control stuff needs to be done via a microprocessor now if ones use the Nikon 10 pin remote cable like the MC-30A, or their banana lead (MC-22) one.
Like I said, I'm doing it and now proving it to myself as well as the flash meter which now agrees with the theoretical guide numbers and the test photos. I made the error of sync'ing it all up later (Prepared for the FF-33 bulbs) and got me here to ask. Since then, I've learned I was in error and on the tail end of the #40 bulb burn and why the Press #40 bulbs must be fired "ahead" of the shutter lag in the Nikon via the cabling since they cable parallel off to a shutter trip relay as well as the flash bulb relay. If the bulbs goes dark around 50ms after ignition, and the shutter lag is 43 ms, you got little to nothing like I had.
Luckily, the microprocessor control timer I am using (Radio Shack Uno and a Seed Relay Shield v2.0, fwiw.) allows me to set a fixed microsecond timing occurrence to either lead or lag the Nikon shutter relay to address it. With the Meggaflash PF-330 or Sylvania FF-33 discontinued flashbulbs, it must occur long 'after' the shutter lag time to hit their peak burn. With the faster Press #40 bulbs, the shutter relay lag of 43ms needs to get going 'ahead' of the flash relay before it trips the #40 as it only takes 5ms to get them going - else you got squat like I did prior.
Neat part of the Arduino Uno relay's circuit board is the LED's that are visible on it as to the relay's (both shutter and flash relays) operation. The shutter relay trips ahead of the flash relay for the #40 bulbs. The opposite occurs for the Meggaflash bulbs - and it is a much longer visible LED delay too. You can actually tailor whatever bulbs you want in a digital camera, just it takes some timing control which I've also done - aside from my mistake of assuming the shutter lag matter on the Nikon compared to the Meggaflash/Sylvaniseries 33 curves and the older Wabash Press #40 ignition curves which are very different animals that got me here.
SG
You don't understand at all, after I carefully explained this all to you? How can that be?
Read this:
http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Flash_sync (http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Flash_sync)
http://photography.tutsplus.com/articles/a-brief-history-of-photographic-flash--photo-4249 (http://photography.tutsplus.com/articles/a-brief-history-of-photographic-flash--photo-4249)
http://books.google.com/books?id=h4LOAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=flash+synchronization+flashbulbs&source=bl&ots=LkuKsINpWh&sig=qRV9_WbiPN6UvHgdjfDbs7PE-Fc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ixr1U4PdKMGnyATLyIJ4&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=flash%20synchronization%20flashbulbs&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=h4LOAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=flash+synchronization+flashbulbs&source=bl&ots=LkuKsINpWh&sig=qRV9_WbiPN6UvHgdjfDbs7PE-Fc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ixr1U4PdKMGnyATLyIJ4&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=flash%20synchronization%20flashbulbs&f=false)
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-268636.html (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-268636.html)
Once again, you cannot synch Press 40 bulbs with a modern focal-plane shutter! It is not possible!
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No, the reverse! The "delay" is counted from the sending of the electric signal, not autofocus! The shutter is going off before the flash bulb reaches its peak brightness, not after! Autofocus has nothing to do with it! The connection to fire the flash comes only after autofocus is attained!
No! no! no!
No, it won't help! The flash burns too quickly and does not provide light for the entire length of the exposure with a focal-plane shutter!
You don't understand at all, after I carefully explained this all to you? How can that be?
Read this:
http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Flash_sync (http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Flash_sync)
http://photography.tutsplus.com/articles/a-brief-history-of-photographic-flash--photo-4249 (http://photography.tutsplus.com/articles/a-brief-history-of-photographic-flash--photo-4249)
http://books.google.com/books?id=h4LOAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=flash+synchronization+flashbulbs&source=bl&ots=LkuKsINpWh&sig=qRV9_WbiPN6UvHgdjfDbs7PE-Fc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ixr1U4PdKMGnyATLyIJ4&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=flash%20synchronization%20flashbulbs&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=h4LOAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=flash+synchronization+flashbulbs&source=bl&ots=LkuKsINpWh&sig=qRV9_WbiPN6UvHgdjfDbs7PE-Fc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ixr1U4PdKMGnyATLyIJ4&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=flash%20synchronization%20flashbulbs&f=false)
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-268636.html (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-268636.html)
Once again, you cannot synch Press 40 bulbs with a modern focal-plane shutter! It is not possible!
No, the reverse! The "delay" is counted from the sending of the electric signal, not autofocus! The shutter is going off before the flash bulb reaches its peak brightness, not after! Autofocus has nothing to do with it!
No! no! no!
No, it won't help! The flash burns too quickly and does not provide light for the entire length of the exposure with a focal-plane shutter!
You don't understand at all, after I carefully explained this all to you? How can that be?
Read this:
http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Flash_sync (http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Flash_sync)
http://photography.tutsplus.com/articles/a-brief-history-of-photographic-flash--photo-4249 (http://photography.tutsplus.com/articles/a-brief-history-of-photographic-flash--photo-4249)
Your theory, and mine in practice do not mix. I'm doing it now. If I follow your instructions, it will not work.
Scenario:
One concurrent signal going to two relays off the MC-30A remote: One for shutter trip relay (or internal body shutter release switch). The other goes to a flash relay or switch (external hot shoe for the screw-in flash bulbs. Take your pick on bulbs mentioned, but they do matter as to timing.). The release signal of SW2 within the Nikon remote hits both relays at same time. (AF/Metering is ignored and Off for the most part, and all subsequent is in Manual Focus and Metering. Only reason it is mentioned is that it is pre-requisite: AF & Metering is off SW1 in the Nikon remote, and feeds to the shutter SW2 in the remote. Been through mess that already.).
Check?
Now...
The Nikon shutter relay, once it gets the trip signal from the MC-30A remote "delays" the shutter for 43ms (Has to get the mirror out of the way and open the blades.). Meanwhile, the flash relay has already tripped and the bulb has already fired for its 50ms burn duration. So you only acquired maybe 7ms of the bulb's total burn period (My underexposure, verses what my meter was telling me is why I got here asking.).
Now the shutter is finally opened at 43ms, but the 50ms burn of the bulb is now going out (On the tail end of its burn) since it fired along with the shutter signal trip at the same time. So I ended up with a bad underexposure compared to what my meter was telling me by 3-4 stops.
This is for the quicker firing #40 bulbs too.
Now the opposite occurs for the PF-330 bulbs that take 400ms to get up to maximum burn. Nikon's shutter (lag) relay opens in 43ms, and flash relay has also tripped prior, but the burn is still ramping up to peak burn in another 357ms beyond the slow Nikon shutter lag.
Pretty simple?
As to the metering or AF, that is Off and in Manual focus only due to AF searching and slowness prior lock-on and allowing the shutter release firing signal which is a big variable. The Nikon uses 5 volts off the AF/Metering pin in the 10 pin to feed the remote's shutter release SW2 in the MC-30A. You need to use that AF/Metering signal else the shutter will not trip the way Nikon designed it. Been there.
I already built the circuit with the Arduino microprocessor and relay board and it now works via my timing. Yours will not work. Trust me. Yours (in theory when I began the flash bulb timing mess) is what got me into this sync matter and why it will not work via the Nikon 10 pin connector. It will lead to bad under-exposure with the Press #40 like I got, but the 33 series "may work" but you have prolonged the shutter and they are much slower to ramp-up and the slow shutter lag is masked. The bulbs differ in ignition timing and their maximum burn, and the Nikon's shutter lag (Which varies between models too!) is another matter.
Note too that this is not off the shutter's internal switches or control circuit as it may burn out depending on the flash bulb circuit's current flow as it is mostly a dead short when the flash relay closes to get the bulb to fire (aka, Much like Honeywell's Tilt-a-Might flash holder circuitry which might hit a peak of 2-3 amps once triggered.).
Reality is that my Nikon would need, actually it does need, two separate timing signals for the shutter relay: Fire it prior to the flash relay for the Press #40 bulbs, or fire it much later for the Meggaflash/Sylvania series 33 bulbs.
You actually can move the burn cycle of any old flash bulb to either "lead" or "follow" the shutter using two relays controlled by a microprocessor as I am now doing: One relay controls the shutter; Second relay for the lamp. A delay time can be assigned to either to suit the bulb's ignition to maximum burn time.
As I mentioned, I'm doing it now.
SG
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I think melchiorpavone is trying to sound like an expert (authority) without being one. Some of us "old timers" did actually use flash bulbs and strobes at the same time. Yep, there was x-sync for strobes, and m-sync for bulbs. The m-sync had the 15 milli sec delay to get the bulb to near full brightness for when the focal plane shutter was at it's max opening. Pretty straight forward stuff. Still, by my way of thinking, if you fired the flash bulb with zero delay (x-sync) and used a longer shutter speed to keep the focal plane open, you should get the full power of the flash bulb. Of course you would not have the motion stopping attributes of the strobe. But my, those Press 25 bulbs sure had a lot of power compared the the portable high voltage power pack strobes available back in the '60's! Great for coal mines! ;-) Remember when Tri-x was only ISO 200?
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I think melchiorpavone is trying to sound like an expert (authority) without being one. Some of us "old timers" did actually use flash bulbs and strobes at the same time. Yep, there was x-sync for strobes, and m-sync for bulbs. The m-sync had the 15 milli sec delay to get the bulb to near full brightness for when the focal plane shutter was at it's max opening. Pretty straight forward stuff. Still, by my way of thinking, if you fired the flash bulb with zero delay (x-sync) and used a longer shutter speed to keep the focal plane open, you should get the full power of the flash bulb. Of course you would not have the motion stopping attributes of the strobe. But my, those Press 25 bulbs sure had a lot of power compared the the portable high voltage power pack strobes available back in the '60's! Great for coal mines! ;-) Remember when Tri-x was only ISO 200?
No, using a slower shutter speed won't help. You won't capture any more of the flash by doing so.
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Are you talking about using a D-800, or an old film Nikon? If the x-sync shutter triggers the flash at the point that the focal plane is full open, a longer shutter speed will result in the total focal plane being open much longer--to allow for the full 40-60 milli-second burn of the bulb. Are you saying the full shutter does not stay open on a longer exposure? Or are you saying the x-sync causes the bulb to start burning before the shutter opens (like and m-sync)???? Why is using x-sync with a longer exposure any different than triggering a flash bulb with a "bulb exposure" ?
In any event, sounds like the OP has the problem solved with a dual relay arrangment where he can control both the shutter opening and the flash bulb triggering.
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Are you talking about using a D-800, or an old film Nikon? If the x-sync shutter triggers the flash at the point that the focal plane is full open, a longer shutter speed will result in the total focal plane being open much longer--to allow for the full 40-60 milli-second burn of the bulb. Are you saying the full shutter does not stay open on a longer exposure? Or are you saying the x-sync causes the bulb to start burning before the shutter opens (like and m-sync)???? Why is using x-sync with a longer exposure any different than triggering a flash bulb with a "bulb exposure" ?
In any event, sounds like the OP has the problem solved with a dual relay arrangment where he can control both the shutter opening and the flash bulb triggering.
I am saying:
1) the X-synch will cause the shutter to fire prematurely relative to the Press 40 bulb, and
2) the peak is too short. It will not last long enough to give uniform exposure during the time the shutter is open.
This very basic stuff.
Focal-plane bulbs were designed to overcome these problems. Look at the lower right in the illustration. See how different the shape of the light-intensity curve is.
http://www.flashbulbs.com/CrPDwnlds/FlashInfoPdf2Sm.gif (http://www.flashbulbs.com/CrPDwnlds/FlashInfoPdf2Sm.gif)
More info here:
http://drjlists.home.comcast.net/~drjlists/Flash_Bulbs.htm (http://drjlists.home.comcast.net/~drjlists/Flash_Bulbs.htm)
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Are you talking about using a D-800, or an old film Nikon? If the x-sync shutter triggers the flash at the point that the focal plane is full open, a longer shutter speed will result in the total focal plane being open much longer--to allow for the full 40-60 milli-second burn of the bulb. Are you saying the full shutter does not stay open on a longer exposure? Or are you saying the x-sync causes the bulb to start burning before the shutter opens (like and m-sync)???? Why is using x-sync with a longer exposure any different than triggering a flash bulb with a "bulb exposure" ?
In any event, sounds like the OP has the problem solved with a dual relay arrangement where he can control both the shutter opening and the flash bulb triggering.
John, you got it! :)
I am not willing to feed high current through the camera body (D800E Digital) for flash bulbs nor mess with whatever sync Nikon is now using. Don't care if it is M, or X, Y, Z sync in the body. I don't know what Nikon is using internally for contacts (Could be a couple of hair-like wires in the shutter unit that may or not withstand a 220uf 15 volt short circuit to the bulb with them either.), and it may be they are using some processor-controlled timing release off some opto-triac IC to the hot shoe since they also play with the rear or trailing curtain flash in the camera's menu for flash, as well as a possible pre-flash with their own or other units via the flash shoe. Plus their CLS Commander mode stuff too.
Hence, I felt the safety need to feed that flash bulb current stuff to an external relay as well as the shutter relay, both being fed off the MC-30A two-stage switched remote cord. The camera is totally isolated from any flash bulb electrical stuff now. The days of X-sync may well be over inside these new things as far as to what timing controls are fed to the digital shoes now, and I'm not willing to blow one out with bulbs trying it.
So now I can now move the bulb's peak ahead or behind the shutter curtain's fully open time depending on not only the shutter lag of a given camera body, but also any slow ignition off a slow-to-ignite 0.400ms flash bulb (e.g. PF-330 or FF-33) or a quicker flash bulb like a Press #40 at 5ms by setting the relays delay independently to either the shutter or the bulb. No damage done or applied to the hot shoe circuit or PC socket if the camera has one (D800 does have a PC socket on top of the 10 pin, but the D7000 does not and a different shutter lag too.).
Problem has been solved by moving the flash relay ahead of the shutter for the Press #40 since the shutter is slow to respond. May not apply to the camera's internal switching, but via the remote cord it works with a common line to two relays in parallel (Shutter & a Flash relay.). Real world flash bulb triggering is now working with digital instead of theoretical via the internal XYZ or whatever contacts.
Interesting also that I can actually test the real camera shutter lag with an electronic flash (Faster at ~1/1000 sec. from one of my studios.) and see the image appear by altering the delay in milliseconds within the Arduino Uno program that is controlling the flash bulbs or shutter relay's timing too.
I was just looking at some new FF-33 bulbs. Interesting as it seems the bent magnesium "razor blade" looking thing is glued to the top of the glass inside the bulb. No contact at all with the base nor the two leads up from the base at all. Very small ignition wire between them, maybe 1/4" under the larger bent magnesium razor blade looking part.
SG
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John, you got it! :)
I am not willing to feed high current through the camera body (D800E Digital) for flash bulbs nor mess with whatever sync Nikon is now using. Don't care if it is M, or X, Y, Z sync in the body. I don't know what Nikon is using internally for contacts (Could be a couple of hair-like wires in the shutter unit that may or not withstand a 220uf 15 volt short circuit to the bulb with them either.), and it may be they are using some processor-controlled timing release off some opto-triac IC to the hot shoe since they also play with the rear or trailing curtain flash in the camera's menu for flash, as well as a possible pre-flash with their own or other units via the flash shoe. Plus their CLS Commander mode stuff too.
Hence, I felt the safety need to feed that flash bulb current stuff to an external relay as well as the shutter relay, both being fed off the MC-30A two-stage switched remote cord. The camera is totally isolated from any flash bulb electrical stuff now. The days of X-sync may well be over inside these new things as far as to what timing controls are fed to the digital shoes now, and I'm not willing to blow one out with bulbs trying it.
So now I can now move the bulb's peak ahead or behind the shutter curtain's fully open time depending on not only the shutter lag of a given camera body, but also any slow ignition off a slow-to-ignite 0.400ms flash bulb (e.g. PF-330 or FF-33) or a quicker flash bulb like a Press #40 at 5ms by setting the relays delay independently to either the shutter or the bulb. No damage done or applied to the hot shoe circuit or PC socket if the camera has one (D800 does have a PC socket on top of the 10 pin, but the D7000 does not and a different shutter lag too.).
Problem has been solved by moving the flash relay ahead of the shutter for the Press #40 since the shutter is slow to respond. May not apply to the camera's internal switching, but via the remote cord it works with a common line to two relays in parallel (Shutter & a Flash relay.). Real world flash bulb triggering is now working with digital instead of theoretical via the internal XYZ or whatever contacts.
Interesting also that I can actually test the real camera shutter lag with an electronic flash (Faster at ~1/1000 sec. from one of my studios.) and see the image appear by altering the delay in milliseconds within the Arduino Uno program that is controlling the flash bulbs or shutter relay's timing too.
I was just looking at some new FF-33 bulbs. Interesting as it seems the bent magnesium "razor blade" looking thing is glued to the top of the glass inside the bulb. No contact at all with the base nor the two leads up from the base at all. Very small ignition wire between them, maybe 1/4" under the larger bent magnesium razor blade looking part.
SG
You have no idea what you are doing. You have no idea that the duration and intensity of the flash over that period of the flash are crucial. I have told you and told you and told you, but you won't listen. You will not get even exposure across the image no matter what you do! Why do you come here asking questions then ignore the advice given by those who have far more technical knowledge of the subject than you do?
You cannot use Press 40 flashbulbs successfully with today's cameras (focal-plane shutters), no matter what you do, except for time exposures.
I know what I am talking about and you do not. So, quit contradicting me.
You will get something like this:
http://www.digital-photography-school.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/sync-500.jpg (http://www.digital-photography-school.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/sync-500.jpg)
I have reported you to the moderator. I have had it with you. You can expect to be warned or removed.
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Watching the "experts" debate here is more fun than watching political TV.
Just keep it polite please (unlike some political TV shows).
M
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I have reported you to the moderator. I have had it with you. You can expect to be warned or removed.
I very much doubt it. People don't get banned from this forum for taking the trouble to investigate an issue, describe it articulately, be polite and report on their findings and any resolution.
From what I've read here 'Some Guy' (always nice to put your real name in your profile though) has a good grasp on the subject and has built some fairly specialised kit to work round the issues of using flashbulbs with modern DSLRs. It would be interesting to read more details of the unit he has built to vary the synchronization timings.
You Melchiorpavone, have from your first comment here failed to understand the issue and been unhelpful. Furthermore you've demonstrated that you're not aware of the current state of the market for flashbulbs, their uses, have failed to comment on what's actually been written and not bothered to make the most basic of research when you've come across a term you don't understand.
In the UK we have a saying 'when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging' you might like to consider this. Lula has some real experts in it, the smart people shut up when they find they're arguing with people that are more knowledgeable.
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Obviously the theoretical physicist here doesn't get it. Seems stuck thinking back in the X-sync era, whereas I am not using the internal camera sync switch for flash bulbs.
Here are the two timing codes ("Sketches" in Arduino speak, or "Program" from my era.) that I've written for the Arduino Uno. One is for the Press #40, second is for the PF-330 or Sylvania FF-33. Feel free to load the code if you build one.
Not that hard, other than maybe making a third circuit board (plugged into the top of the Arudio Uno and one top of the Seeed Relay Shield v2 to hold the pull-up resistors needed and the 220uf capacitor underneath in one corner. As I worked through this over time, I found more code that can be used to replace them as they are internal to the microprocessor already. They do make a breadboard type of plug-in where one could circumvent making one.
Feel free to use either as I like the Open Source of the Arduino community.
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// Flashbulb Trigger. Shutter delay for PF-330 bulbs with Nikon D800E. Turns on LEDs on when the two-stage release is pressed. Start of delay relay timing sketch.
const int LED1 = 4; // The pin for the Green LED, or Relay Shield relay number 1. Metering and Auto Foucs relay.
const int LED2 = 6; //The pin for the Red LED, or Relay Shield relay number 2. Bulb control relay.
const int LED3 = 5; //The pin for the Yellow LED, Relay Shield number 3. Shutter control relay number 3.
const int BUTTON1 = 2; // The input pin where the focus switch is connected. From MC-30A remote SW1.
const int BUTTON2 = 3; // The input pin where the shutter switch is connected. From MC-30A SW2.
int val1 = 0; // Value will be used to store the state of the input pin.
int val2 = 0; // As above for button 2.
int val3 = 0; // As above.
void setup()
{
pinMode(LED1, OUTPUT); // Green Focus LED and tell Arduino LED is an output.
pinMode(LED2, OUTPUT); // Red Shutter LED and tell Arduino LED is an output.
pinMode(LED3, OUTPUT); // Yellow Shutter Delay LED and tell Arduino LED is an output.
pinMode(BUTTON1, INPUT); // Button 1 is Focus switch and an input.
pinMode(BUTTON2, INPUT); // Button 2 is Shutter switch and an input.
}
void loop()
{
val1 = digitalRead(BUTTON1); // Read input value and store it and check whether the input is HIGH (button pressed).
if (val1 == HIGH)
{
digitalWrite(LED1, HIGH); // Turn the Green LED ON.
}
else
{
digitalWrite(LED1, LOW); // Turn the Green LED OFF.
}
val2 = digitalRead(BUTTON2); // Read input value and store it and check whether the input is HIGH (button pressed).
if (val2 == HIGH)
{
digitalWrite(LED2, HIGH); // Turn the Red LED ON.
}
delay (350); // Time delay of Yellow LED in milliseconds.
if (val2 == HIGH)
{
digitalWrite(LED3, HIGH); // Turn the Yellow LED ON.
}
else {
digitalWrite(LED2, LOW); // Turn the Red LED OFF.
digitalWrite(LED3, LOW); // Turn the Yellow LED OFF.
}
}
_________________________________________
Following is the timing program for the Press #40 bulbs:
_________________________________________
// Flashbulb Trigger. This is for Press #40 flashbulbs with Nikon D800E. Turns on LEDs on when the two-stage release is pressed. Start of delay relay timing sketch.
// Flash needs to be delayed until the 45ms shutter lag is completed. Focus locked in Manual mode, else shutter lag will be need to be changed to 250ms from 45ms for AF mode.
const int LED1 = 4; // The pin for the Green LED, or Relay Shield relay number 1 (Focus and Metering relay).
const int LED2 = 6; //The pin for the Red LED, or Relay Shield relay number 2 (Flash relay).
const int LED3 = 5; //The pin for the Yellow LED, or Relay Shield relay number 3 (Shutter relay).
const int BUTTON1 = 2; // The input pin where the focus switch is connected, or SW1 in remote release. Goes to 10K pullup resistor using 5 volts off Arduino.
const int BUTTON2 = 3; // The input pin where the shutter switch is connected, or Sw2 in remote release. Goes to 10K pullup resistor using 5 volts off Arduino.
int val1 = 0; // Value will be used to store the state of the input pin.
int val2 = 0; // As above for button 2.
int val3 = 0; // As above.
void setup()
{
pinMode(LED1, OUTPUT); // Green Focus LED and tell Arduino LED is an output.
pinMode(LED2, OUTPUT); // Red Shutter LED and tell Arduino LED is an output.
pinMode(LED3, OUTPUT); // Yellow Flash LED and tell Arduino LED is an output.
pinMode(BUTTON1, INPUT); // Button 1 is Focus switch and an input.
pinMode(BUTTON2, INPUT); // Button 2 is Shutter switch and an input.
}
void loop()
{
val1 = digitalRead(BUTTON1); // Read input value and store it and check whether the input is HIGH (Release button pressed, and first SW1 turned ON.).
if (val1 == HIGH)
{
digitalWrite(LED1, HIGH); // Turn the Green LED ON. This is for Focus and Metering relay.
}
else
{
digitalWrite(LED1, LOW); // Turn the Green LED OFF.
}
// Following is for Shutter relay and Flash relay.
val2 = digitalRead(BUTTON2); // Read input value and store it and check whether the input is HIGH (Release button pressed further, and second SW2 turned ON.).
if (val2 == HIGH)
{
digitalWrite(LED3, HIGH); // Turn the Yellow LED ON. Shutter fires.
}
delay (45); // Time delay of Red LED (Flash relay) in milliseconds to delay firing of #40 flashbulb by 45ms for camera's shutter lag time.
if (val2 == HIGH)
{
digitalWrite(LED2, HIGH); // Turn the Red LED ON. Flash fires.
}
else {
digitalWrite(LED2, LOW); // Turn the Red LED OFF.
digitalWrite(LED3, LOW); // Turn the Yellow LED OFF.
}
}
_______________________________________________
I'll try and post a couple of shots taken at night with the Press #40 which I ended up with a GN=45 along with the EXIF data (I hope!). One was using the bulb in a 5" hardware store clamp-on light into a 52" white umbrella for softness (One with little shadow behind the stand on the concrete patio as well as off the meter and ColorChecker Passport.). Other is just the bulb with no reflector in front of the 52" umbrella that is casting a bit of a strong shadow. The bare-bulb might be better with a GN=56 as I did pull the brightness down in post.
Both had a Lee filter #202 to color-correct the bulbs to daylight. I'm reading about 5,200K corrected depending on the software used to read it.
I'll try and shot some of the innards of the flash control box later today if anyone is interested in the basic design and layout. I had a schematic, but it got modified as it all went into "the box" since I could attach to the top home-made board for things like the jacks on on-off LED and power switch.
Also, there is a device called "Camera Axe" that does much of this timing and shifting around stuff for $200. However, it does not use an internal relay and the maker advises to use an external relay for the flashbulb current else it might damage their box much like the possiblity of damaging the camera should one use the hot shoe. The Seeed Relay Shield I use handles around 10 amps per relay so not an issue.
The owner John H. of Meggaflash told me one has to come up with the delay themselves for their PF-330 bulbs. Most clients have that ability to do so. I guess I got my own design now.
Whole adventure was due to the fact electronic flash "freezes moving water" and results in basically a double-exposure even at a slow 1 second shutter speed. The long burn of the Series #33 bulbs of ~2 seconds should address that fact for landscape shooters, or with fill-flash for subjects near moving water.
SG (Who posts as "Some Guy" since I've had numerous identity theft issues with the bank like 5 credit card changes in one year, Passport, DMV, etc. by using my real name. Not going there again. Fwiw.).
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Thanks for all that, interesting stuff I may make use of one day.
SG (Who posts as "Some Guy" since I've had numerous identity theft issues ...... Not going there again. Fwiw.)
Understood, some folk seem particularly unlucky like that. But consider putting even just a first name and location into a profile, it just makes the id more friendly and credible. Plus a location often helps others help you better and may help prevent any misunderstanding by an appreciation of differences in language and custom.
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I very much doubt it. People don't get banned from this forum for taking the trouble to investigate an issue, describe it articulately, be polite and report on their findings and any resolution.
From what I've read here 'Some Guy' (always nice to put your real name in your profile though) has a good grasp on the subject and has built some fairly specialised kit to work round the issues of using flashbulbs with modern DSLRs. It would be interesting to read more details of the unit he has built to vary the synchronization timings.
You Melchiorpavone, have from your first comment here failed to understand the issue and been unhelpful. Furthermore you've demonstrated that you're not aware of the current state of the market for flashbulbs, their uses, have failed to comment on what's actually been written and not bothered to make the most basic of research when you've come across a term you don't understand.
In the UK we have a saying 'when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging' you might like to consider this. Lula has some real experts in it, the smart people shut up when they find they're arguing with people that are more knowledgeable.
I know exactly what I am talking about (having been involved in photography for 50 years), and he is clueless.
End of story.
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Obviously the theoretical physicist here doesn't get it. Seems stuck thinking back in the X-sync era, whereas I am not using the internal camera sync switch for flash bulbs.
You asked for help, and it was given.
Press 40 flashbulbs are from before that era ("X" synch), or did that perhaps escape your attention?
They were called "Press" because they were used like this, with leaf-shutter cameras Speed Graphics and similar leaf-shutter press cameras:
http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/anniversary-graphic.jpg (http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/anniversary-graphic.jpg)
There were even "press" films, such as DuPont Arrow Pan and Kodak Super-Panchro Press film, which were designed to provide good images under the conditions they were expected to be used, usually with flash:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA0NVgxMDc5/z/raQAAOxyfVtSLr-I/$(KGrHqJ,!oQFIrkVkH9GBSLr-IDtPw~~60_35.JPG (http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA0NVgxMDc5/z/raQAAOxyfVtSLr-I/$(KGrHqJ,!oQFIrkVkH9GBSLr-IDtPw~~60_35.JPG)
The Press 40 flashbulbs do not burn properly for use with focal-plane shutters (other than for time exposures), regardless of how you synchronize them.
End of discussion.
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I'll show some of the refinement photos for those going this route.
Photo of 5" clamp reflector and upright modified drop light. I just used emroidery loops for the Le #201 filter sheets. Normal AC power cord replaced with 25' 1/4" mono phono-plug type cables. Notice the bulb in the drop-light is the Series #33 bulb with the 2 second burn time.
Photos of "The Box."
Front views shows military type flip-lever DPST power switch (Blue). Red power LED in middle. Cord out near bottom is the Nikon 10-pin cable I took out of the MC-30A remote release. Left the molded strain-relief on it and just notched the aluminum plate of the box much like the hole in the handle of the MC-30A.
The longer cord now coming out of the MC-30A is a replacement molded 3-conductor with 90 degree mini plug that I got out of All Electronics in Los Angeles. It fits the remote perfectly with a bit of trim on the strain relief from round to square. Goes into a standard 3 conductor mini jack that goes to my homemade upper PC board and feeds the two 10K Pul-Up reistors that feed the 5 volt trigger (or High) signal to the Arduino Uno board through the Relay board pins and jacks.
Back shows the USB Type B connector that allows me to reprogram the Uno's timing for the relays depending on the bulb in use, shutter lag of whatever camera, etc. without taking the cover off. I can plug in a laptop and dump another timing program into it in maybe 15 seconds via the Arduino freeware. 1/4" jack under it goes to either flashbulb holder I am using above. The small on on the right if the charge jack for the 14.8 volt rechargable battery (Also from All Electronics).
There is also a 9 volt TO-22 regulator heat-sinked to the middle of the rear aluminum plate to take some of the 15 volt battery down to 9 volts that feeds into the power port for the Arduino Uno. It also supplies the relay boards power via the Uno board. The full15 volts goes to the flash. I used about 1.5K resistor into the 220uf capacitor as part of the flash trigger circuit. Search for the Honeywell Tilt-a-Might scehamtic online for genral idea.
Out of focus side-shot of "The Box" shows the stacked boards. You can see the 220uf flash trigger capactor upside down on the upper board in the dark region near the two red wires on the right by the power swtich.
I also included what looks like a flipped circuit board (Lettering is reversed.). If you print it via a Laserjet, the otner will make a sort of release wax that is then ironed onto the copper PC board, removed and the traces remain, and then etch it normally. All Electronics sells 4 sheets of that transfer blue film for about $11. I used their "Turn the copper to tin" solution later once it was etched. The etchant powder and tin suff is about $9 each. Holes I generally start with a #68 drill bit and enlarge if needed.
Rememeber, the board is flipped and will show up correctly once iron onto the PC board. The components, with the exception of the capacitor, are all soldered flush on top of the board like surface-mount stuff since the relays are under it and it sits flat ontop of them.
I used long snappable header pins that look like those on the bottom of the relay board. Three are on the upper 3 squares looking at the drawing and go into the matching sockets of the relay board (I think they are holes 3, 4, and 5.). There is another long 2 pin connector on the oppsotite side for the two side-by-side pull up resistors, they goes into the +5 volts and GND jacks for the relay board and down into the same on the Uno.
You can see the relays LED lights and what relays the Metering & AF goes to, the shutter relay, and the bulb relay. All these are set up the same as what would be seen coming out of the MC-30A remote, just another relay or switch for the bulb is added.
Shot of three boards pulled apart from the stacking. Nothing new, other than two old Press #40 lamps used to take the test photos posted earlier. One in the photo is my trial board and not the final now inside the box. The jack is on it so I can plug in my modified Nikon MC-30A remote that now has a 3-conductor mini stereo plug on it.
I did put a crossbrace for some nylon cord in the top cover to keep it from stressing the plastic box (Box also from All Electronics, $10). I hands on the hook under the tripod center column and reached to the 10-pin jack in the camera.
SG
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Continuation of "The Box" internal photos since the limit of 4 images per post:
SG
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I'll show some of the refinement photos for those going this route.
Nobody else will, because we know better.
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Had a successful shoot with flashbulbs yesterday on a D800E, other than forgetting to plug the box into the camera once, yet the bulb fired just out of sync and dark. Need to put a bit of "Don't get the camera AF voltage, then don't fire the silly thing!" code maybe. Shot a singer/actress/model out of Hollywood in some waterfalls. I had the make-up woman hold the Lee "Little Stopper" 6-stop ND filter in front of the hood too. Color balance wasn't bad.
Exp. 1 second at f/2.8 (ISO 100) with PF-330 bulb in a reflector. You can see a bit of the harsh shadow under her arm. Had to use a Lee #201 filter over the 10" bowl for color correction. About 10 feet in distance with 50mm lens. Biggest issue is them holding still and not shivering for 1 second.
SG
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Interesting thread. If I may ask, what did the bulb provide that an electronic strobe would not for that photograph? Luminosity or duration? Or both?
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Interesting thread. If I may ask, what did the bulb provide that an electronic strobe would not for that photograph? Luminosity or duration? Or both?
Thanks.
This started with my not thinking that electronic flash with its short duration was leading to lighting artifacts with waterfalls in this thread: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=90011.0 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=90011.0)
It's really a double-exposure mess gone bad with waterfalls as shown in the above links photos, i.e. a slow shutter, and electronic flash. Only way to avoid retouching 1000's of "strobe fireflies" was to slow the flash duration down using old slow-burn or long duration flashbulbs.
I tried to do a flash sequencer too, but even if the strobe fired at 1/300 duration it would take 300 of them for 1 second (1/300 x 300 strobes = 1 second) so not practical. Speed-lights were far shorter and worse than the studio units, aside from their weak power for a waterfall.
This works, just it isn't cheap to fire off a $75 flashbulb without knowing the GN, ND filter (A Lee "Little Stopper" this time out.) color variations, color correction filter, etc. Plus, one needs to get the bulb up to max. brightness prior to firing the shutter, hence the box above and timing code that operates based on the signal from the camera's focus/metering, and then it timing the second stage of the release button for the shutter's lag time from the release trigger signal.
The outfit that sells the bulbs in Ireland said one would have to devise their own firing method for whatever camera was used as they sold no firing controller. There is the "Camera Axe" too, just you need a secondary relay and battery to get the current out to the bulb to fire it, according to its maker. I basically put it all in one using the same Arduino microprocessor.
SG
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Thank you for the reference back to the original image. Quite an inspiring adventure.