Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: trevarthan on August 15, 2014, 09:21:01 am
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I've had a D3s since 2010, but recently bought a D810 for images where resolution matters.
One thing that's really knocking my socks off in a bad way is how much my 85mm f1.4g sucks on the D810, handheld. I was taking pictures of my daughter playing with legos this morning, or trying to, and I thought, NAH, I won't use the 70-200mm f2.8 VR II. It's too big and heavy. I'll just snap that little 85mm f1.4g on there and sneak some pictures while her attention is on the legos. Total fail. I set the shutter speed to 1/250s and every frame turned out blurry.
At first I thought I was getting some back or front focus on the body. Eventually, after playing around with different things and focusing manually with live view as a test, I bumped the shutter to 1/400s. That seemed to be ok. I then got my 70-200mm VR II out and tested how low I could go. I was reliably getting sharp photos at 85mm and 1/125s. That's a HUGE difference. I bought that fast prime to assist in shooting low light scenes hand held, but if I have to crank the shutter speed up to 1/400s to eliminate hand shake (I think I have a pretty steady hand too), that means I have to lower my f-stop to f1.8 or f1.4 just to get the shot at the same ISO. That's a worse picture, not a better picture!
Granted, if there was some serious action going on, the 85mm 1.4g could out perform the 70-200mm f2.8 in low light, but that's a really narrow use case.
Why in the heck didn't they ship these fast primes with VR? That would make these lenses so much more useful.
None of this matters on a tripod, of course. I just felt like ranting this morning. I think the D3s's resolution is low enough that I never noticed this before. Seems like the D810 just magnifies every little flaw in an image. You have to really be precise with it. Kind of a double edged sword.
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I have the same problem with the A7r. With the Sony, if you select Manual with ISO Auto you can choose Exposure Time and Aperture manually, and the camera will adjust ISO accordingly. I am sure Nikon offers that too, maybe a little different.
You will loose dynamic range this way, true, but for most situation, when there is not a dramatic dynamic range, like in landscape, I feel this is acceptable.
Cheers
Jan
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In my personal experience, and your mileage can and will vary, I find not just with my D800, but even my D700 and cameras before it, everything is sharper when I use a monopod, with or without VR. If I do not have a monopod, I lean against a wall, lamp post, sit at a table with my elbows on top of the table, etc, etc, etc. Even with VR and even shooting at speeds at or above 1/1000th, I have always found it helps.
On the flip side of things, I have shot 4x5 film (Crown Graphic) hand held a few times in the past. So for the record, I am a guy in a glass house throwing stones. :)
IMO, one good thing about the D800 and other hi-resolution cameras is they are forcing people to really examine thier lenses, the way they shoot, maybe just everything about how they do photography. For what it is worth, back in the "old days of film when dinosaurs roamed the earth", or something like that ( :) ), you would find that the first time a person tried something like Tech Pan 25 or Kodachrome 25 or any of the other, slow speed but very fine grained films that similar issues came out then. That old grainy colour 1000 ASA film sure hid a lot of problems. :)
I once knew a guy who bought a Leica just so he had something "worthy" of Kodachrome 25. Mind you, with hindsight, I also think the guy just wanted a Leica to begin with and would of found any excuse to buy one. Just like how today some guys on other forums will post and million page message trying to convince themselves whey they need to upgrade to the D810 from their 3 month old D800. :)
One last thought - none of my lenses has any VR or IS or anything like it. I use mostly Zeiss and Nikkor primes, and my one zoom, the 24-70, does not come with VR to begin with. Sold off the couple of lenses I once had that did have VR. For my part, I do not miss VR lenses at all.
good luck
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If you set the D810 to Auto ISO you can then set the max ISO and minimum shutter speed. You can select Auto for minimum shutter speed, which will make the shutter speed a function of the f stop set for the lens. There is a scale for minimum shutter speed where the middle setting is 1/f stop, but you can adjust the setting to make it slower or faster than this setting. I shoot in aperature priority using these settings. Don't know if this will solve you problem, but give it a try.
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The more I dig into this, the more unsure I am what is going on. I just shot a completely stationary object, consistently, hand held with arms not braced on anything but my body (I was kneeling though), down to 1/80s with the 85mm 1.4g. Of course, the 70-200mm has no trouble keeping up either.
I thought, maybe it's the AF motor in the 85mm 1.4g. I use continuous focus mode with these lenses since the DOF is so narrow. But in that case increasing the shutter speed to 1/400s wouldn't make any difference, and it seemed to. I'm going to have to keep testing with a live subject and see if I can figure out a pattern. Grumble grumble.
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I think I might have a defective lens. I attempted fine tuning per this guide:
https://nikoneurope-en.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/51633/~/how-to-use-the-af-fine-tune-function
and got +10 at f1.4, but that setting doesn't work at f2.8. I'm going to test with another body and make sure it's the lens.
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I used to have the 85mm f/1.4G. Like many fast lenses this lens has 'focus shift', which means the plane of sharp focus changes as you stop the lens down from f/1.4 to f/2, to f/2.8, etc. So, in your case, if the lens/body AF fine-focus adjustment is perfect for shooting at f/1.4, it's likey not going to be perfect at f/2.8 - you'll need a different af adjustment setting. At some point the increased depth of field may overcome the focus shift, but it might be f/8 or thereabouts.
It's a royal pain to deal with, but when you have a high mp camera like the D810 it's going to make a difference in many cases.
Also, sometimes the AF focus adjustment may need to be one value for close up subjects and a different one for subjects very far away. I don't remember if that applied that lens or not. Also, it can vary by lens sample, esp. if you have a defective one.
Those factors might be the problem you are having, but OTOH they might not be. Maybe it's just the shutter speed or something else like the continuous AF working better with your zoom than the 85mm lens.
To nail it down might require extensive testing on your part. For example you might get the Lens Align AF tool or use a finely detailed test chart (or just a newspaper or magazine page) tape it to a wall or window (assuming your main subjects of interest are of close to moderate distance), and carefully calibrate the AF focus at 1.4, do it again at f2.8, and then 5.6. Do this by having the camera on a tripod and using mirror up and/or faster shutter speeds with higher ISOs as desired (but not too high to cause much image degradation). See if optimum af adjustment numbers are the same for each f-stop or not. You'll having to deal with the usual AF inconsistencies common to most all cameras and AF lenses, so shoot at least 3 shots at each f-stop/af setting, refocusing for each shot.
Then, using the optimum AF setting for f/1.4, take the camera off the tripod, stay about the same distance from the target and shoot hand held. Shoot at varying shutter speeds by varying the ISO. Then do the same thing for 2.8. And, you might do similar tests with your zoom (but pick just one focal length for the comparison and stick with it). This should help identify the problem.
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Vibration reduction causes loss of image quality. Why would you ever want it?
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I am usually shooting the 85mm f1.4 at 1/200s and have not noticed hand shake induced blur.
Now, shooting this lens at f1.4 for close subjects is difficult. You'll never have a 100% success ratio getting the eyes perfectly sharp simply because they may be smaller than the AF sensor area.
Even live view is not the perfect solution.
MF with MF lenses may be a better approach at the end of the day.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I used to have the 85mm f/1.4G. Like many fast lenses this lens has 'focus shift', which means the plane of sharp focus changes as you stop the lens down from f/1.4 to f/2, to f/2.8, etc. So, in your case, if the lens/body AF fine-focus adjustment is perfect for shooting at f/1.4, it's likey not going to be perfect at f/2.8 - you'll need a different af adjustment setting. At some point the increased depth of field may overcome the focus shift, but it might be f/8 or thereabouts.
It's a royal pain to deal with, but when you have a high mp camera like the D810 it's going to make a difference in many cases.
Also, sometimes the AF focus adjustment may need to be one value for close up subjects and a different one for subjects very far away. I don't remember if that applied that lens or not. Also, it can vary by lens sample, esp. if you have a defective one.
Those factors might be the problem you are having, but OTOH they might not be. Maybe it's just the shutter speed or something else like the continuous AF working better with your zoom than the 85mm lens.
To nail it down might require extensive testing on your part. For example you might get the Lens Align AF tool or use a finely detailed test chart (or just a newspaper or magazine page) tape it to a wall or window (assuming your main subjects of interest are of close to moderate distance), and carefully calibrate the AF focus at 1.4, do it again at f2.8, and then 5.6. Do this by having the camera on a tripod and using mirror up and/or faster shutter speeds with higher ISOs as desired (but not too high to cause much image degradation). See if optimum af adjustment numbers are the same for each f-stop or not. You'll having to deal with the usual AF inconsistencies common to most all cameras and AF lenses, so shoot at least 3 shots at each f-stop/af setting, refocusing for each shot.
Then, using the optimum AF setting for f/1.4, take the camera off the tripod, stay about the same distance from the target and shoot hand held. Shoot at varying shutter speeds by varying the ISO. Then do the same thing for 2.8. And, you might do similar tests with your zoom (but pick just one focal length for the comparison and stick with it). This should help identify the problem.
I plan to do this tomorrow. Wanted to do it tonight, but wasn't in the cards. My plan was to contact Nikon once I have a clear picture of how the lens is performing. I've heard of people sending lens and body in for calibration and that fixing the problem, so I thought I would go in armed with data. I also plan to do the same on my other body and my other fast primes, just to be thorough.
Good plan?
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I plan to do this tomorrow. Wanted to do it tonight, but wasn't in the cards. My plan was to contact Nikon once I have a clear picture of how the lens is performing. I've heard of people sending lens and body in for calibration and that fixing the problem, so I thought I would go in armed with data. I also plan to do the same on my other body and my other fast primes, just to be thorough.
Good plan?
It's probably a good plan.You'll have performed the tests that you can and you'll give Nikon the results. One slight caveat though is that sometimes a camera company will say a lens is performing 'within specs', and your particular lens may be at the farthest range of the spec'd range. Hopefully by performing the tests you'll find what is causing the problem and that it might something really simple like just the focus shift I mentioned, and you won't have to send your lens in.
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Vibration reduction causes loss of image quality. Why would you ever want it?
I have always thought that - although Nikon deny it. Certainly, I have never missed VR on my 14-24mm, 24-70mm or any of my primes. I keep it switched off on my 70-200mm unless I think I actually need it.
But, let's be clear, image quality diminution from VR deployment is likely to be noticeable only at high magnifications. I don't think you will see it on an A3+ print from the full frame of a D810.
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Vibration reduction causes loss of image quality. Why would you ever want it?
Hi,
The loss of image quality from the additional opto-mechanical adjustments is very minor, and most likely dwarfed by camera shake (and can also help focus accuracy by providing a more stable image to focus on). The net gain of vibration control (either opto-mechanical, or a sturdy tripod and mirror-up locking) is very often a significant net improvement, especially on a high resolution sensor with good quality lenses.
The more stable viewfinder image also makes composing much easier.
Cheers,
Bart
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I am usually shooting the 85mm f1.4 at 1/200s and have not noticed hand shake induced blur.
Now, shooting this lens at f1.4 for close subjects is difficult. You'll never have a 100% success ratio getting the eyes perfectly sharp simply because they may be smaller than the AF sensor area.
Even live view is not the perfect solution.
MF with MF lenses may be a better approach at the end of the day.
Cheers,
Bernard
My experience echos the advice of Bernard. I have a much easier time hand-holding MF lenses such as the Zeiss 55 1.4. I almost have to shoot the 85 1.4G on a tripod. I also don't much care for the very short focus throw on the 85 in MF - it's a picky but fantastic lens when you nail it. I'm looking forward to reading the experiences with the new Zeiss 85 when it arrives.
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It's probably a good plan.You'll have performed the tests that you can and you'll give Nikon the results. One slight caveat though is that sometimes a camera company will say a lens is performing 'within specs', and your particular lens may be at the farthest range of the spec'd range. Hopefully by performing the tests you'll find what is causing the problem and that it might something really simple like just the focus shift I mentioned, and you won't have to send your lens in.
I'd been reading that term "focus shift" all day, but I was having trouble understanding what it was and why it was. Luckily, I stumbled across this article last night during my research: http://photographylife.com/what-is-focus-shift
It has diagrams, which I found extremely helpful. So yes, now I understand that this is a function of the lens and if it is within spec, there isn't much I can do about it.
However, being a software engineer, I have to wonder if Nikon has settings within the firmware of the camera (or less likely, the lens itself) that they can tweak (and we can't) that compensate for this sort of thing. That would account for some of the lens reviews where people send the lens off and it comes back "perfect".
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Are you using the center focus point when you shoot wide open?
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Alright, I redid my tests with the 85mm f1.4g and the d810 in slightly more controlled conditions and with more variation. These are the results:
With the target 6' away, af tune +6 is perfect for f1.4 and f2.8. This also holds for the target 4' away.
With the target 16' away, af tune is +10 at f1.4 and f2.8 is fine there too.
So, I'm not really seeing focus shift for apertures, but distance. Is that still called focus shift?
I intend to redo this test with my D3s too, but it's out in the field this morning so I'll have to wait for it to get back.
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Are you using the center focus point when you shoot wide open?
Yes.
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Try using the 85mm in "manual focus mode only" in Live View and see how it goes. The AF can be wonky. I'm not a fan of Nikon's AF system overall since they only allow for one AF tuning number in the camera's menu for the owner, and they can set up to 6 in the lens on their bench from reading their service manuals.
I own a Sigma 35mm f.1.4 ART lens and their docking port to tune the thing. It allows for 4 focus zones to tune and mine goes from a -13 to a -1 over the four zones, and even more in their ART zooms. It wasn't linear at all out of the box on my body, but at least it is much better once tuned. Problem is another body throws it all out the door as it is specific to that body once tuned.
How good Nikon tunes it if you send it in is a crap shoot. Sometimes they just make it worse. Two of my last three Nikon lenses had to go in right out of the box. Their QC seems very iffy, imho.
SG
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Try using the 85mm in "manual focus mode only" in Live View and see how it goes.
It's fine in LV modes, I think, but my understanding is that LV uses a contrast detect autofocus system and the viewfinder uses a phase detect autofocus system. I'm mostly interested in getting this lens fixed for viewfinder use.
In manual focus mode, I'm still using the phase detect system for the focus lock dot, so it makes sense that it would be off there too.
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It's fine in LV modes, I think, but my understanding is that LV uses a contrast detect autofocus system and the viewfinder uses a phase detect autofocus system. I'm mostly interested in getting this lens fixed for viewfinder use.
In manual focus mode, I'm still using the phase detect system for the focus lock dot, so it makes sense that it would be off there too.
Not exactly. Set the camera body to Manual and the lens both. Ignore the AF totally. Get into Live View and zoom in with the + button and focus manually and fire the camera while on a tripod. Ignore the AF dot. All you are doing is setting up to check if the lens is good or not.
If the Manual Live View focus works and is sharp (Passes in the above.), then you can get back into the AF and "try" and tune it. If you can't, then maybe time for service.
If you have that Reikan FoCal software it will check your focus for one set distance range per test, but it isn't infallible for varying distances. That is what only Nikon can fix (or Sigma with their tuning dock which Nikon needs to do, imho.). Plus, it isn't often repeatable as the lens may turn a bit shot-to-shot too (Some hysteresis thing where they may have some +/- 500 count out of maybe 6,000 pulses in the lens rotation stepper. If they set it tight, it will be slow to focus and hunt; if loose, it is faster to focus although misses AF a bit more too. It's a trade-off.).
I have the Nikon 105mm Macro G and it drifts shot-to-shot and spins a little each time. FoCal software has a hard time zeroing in on a final tuning number as the lens drifts a bit and you can see it on the final report on all the test shots it takes at a set AF tuning number trying to come up with one valid number. Even on firing a battery of shots in rapid fire, one will be sharper out of 10 even at the same fixed object. Maddening really, but this stuff isn't plu-perfect either and can have a lot of slop that "Meets factory tolerance levels."
I have a D800E and was worried about the moire stuff initially. I don't get it often, nor do I read much of it after Nikon presented it as a "Possible problem vs. the D800." When I do, it's cause for celebration in that I know the AF locked on the proper point and everything was sharp. However, it is very rare I get it even if I try.
SG
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Not exactly. Set the camera body to Manual and the lens both. Ignore the AF totally. Get into Live View and zoom in with the + button and focus manually and fire the camera while on a tripod. Ignore the AF dot. All you are doing is setting up to check if the lens is good or not.
If the Manual Live View focus works and is sharp (Passes in the above.), then you can get back into the AF and "try" and tune it. If you can't, then maybe time for service.
That was actually the first thing I did. It's sharp manually focused. I'm not convinced that means the lens is good though. I think that just means the optics are fine. I could be wrong. I don't know how extensive the electronics are on these things.
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Alright, I redid my tests with the 85mm f1.4g and the d810 in slightly more controlled conditions and with more variation. These are the results:
With the target 6' away, af tune +6 is perfect for f1.4 and f2.8. This also holds for the target 4' away.
With the target 16' away, af tune is +10 at f1.4 and f2.8 is fine there too.
So, I'm not really seeing focus shift for apertures, but distance. Is that still called focus shift?
I intend to redo this test with my D3s too, but it's out in the field this morning so I'll have to wait for it to get back.
The D3S is similar.
Looks good at 6' with +8 for f1.4 and f2.8.
Looks good at 16' with +11 for f1.4 and f2.8.
Does this indicate a problem with the lens, or is this expected behavior from the lens?
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... However, being a software engineer, I have to wonder if Nikon has settings within the firmware of the camera (or less likely, the lens itself) that they can tweak (and we can't) that compensate for this sort of thing. That would account for some of the lens reviews where people send the lens off and it comes back "perfect".
Funny you should mention that because I feel the the camera makers are able to do that, but haven't done so in the past, to my knowledge. Maybe they will in the future, or perhaps maybe they are doing so in certain cases lately, but that's pure conjecture, and I'd be surprised if they were. Maybe Sigma's new firmware upgrade capability for fine tuning focus by focal length/distance will cause the camera makers to make more of an effort. Or, more likely, when 36mp and higher mp DSLRs become common place in the future then the camera makers will make more of an effort to improve autofocus accuracy. But I'm not holding my breath.
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That was actually the first thing I did. It's sharp manually focused. I'm not convinced that means the lens is good though. I think that just means the optics are fine. I could be wrong. I don't know how extensive the electronics are on these things.
Since you've confirmed, per SG's suggestion, that the lens appears sharp when manually focused, and therefore the optics are pretty much ok, that leaves shutter shake or the various focus shift/distance potential issues as possible culprits.
Have you tried setting your 70-200mm zoom to 85mm, turning VR off, setting it at say, f/2.8, and handholding it to shoot comparison shots with the 85mm f/1.4 set at f/2.8, using the same shutter speed for both sets of comparison shots, making sure to do tests at a variety of speeds (by varying ISO)? Or even, f/4?
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Alright, I redid my tests with the 85mm f1.4g and the d810 in slightly more controlled conditions and with more variation. These are the results:
With the target 6' away, af tune +6 is perfect for f1.4 and f2.8. This also holds for the target 4' away.With the target 16' away, af tune is +10 at f1.4 and f2.8 is fine there too.So, I'm not really seeing focus shift for apertures, but distance. Is that still called focus shift?...
Hmm, I'm surprised that your optimal AF setting for 1.4 is the same as for f2.8. I'm not surprised at variance at distance (having encountered that myself). I looked up my old notes when I had a D800 and a rental 85mm 1.4G, and then had bought one. Here are those notes "Copy 1. Has focus shift to about f5.6. Manual focus via Live View shows xnlt sharpness at almost all apertures. Super sharp from 5.6 to about 11. Autofocus on the lens as it came from the factory apparently delivers max focus accuracy at about f5.6. Copy 2 (purchased) - the correct AF setting is near 0 to minus2 for 1.4, and perhaps -10 for f2.8 and smaller. There is purple fringing or spherochromatism heavy at 1.4 and 2." Lens Rentals (where I rented the lens from) tests lenses and reject those which aren't within their standards. The one I bought apparently was not as good as the one I rented, but lenses vary so much from copy to copy it's a crapshoot.
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I'd been reading that term "focus shift" all day, but I was having trouble understanding what it was and why it was. Luckily, I stumbled across this article last night during my research: http://photographylife.com/what-is-focus-shift ...
Here's a good resource for how focus shift applies to the Nikon 85mm f/1.4G specifically: http://www.photozone.de/nikon_ff/606-nikkorafs8514ff?start=1
Also, there's a review of the lens including focus shift on a subscription site http://diglloyd.com/prem/prot/DAP/Nikon85f1_4G/CaseStudy-focus-shift-Nikon-85f1_4G-dolls.html
If focus shift is not the problem with your particular lens / camera combination, and if your af finetune adjustment is set optimally for the aperture you are shooting with, then perhaps the problem lies with the use of continuous AF.
I'm not an expert with continuous af, so please keep that in mind. Others on this forum with more experience with continuous AF on the high mp Nikon cameras would probably have a better insight and may have a way of getting better results than I can. But my experience with the D810 and 70-200mm f/4 is that for close subjects, minor subject movement, or my movement, forwards and back from the subject (whether it be a leaf in the breeze, or a subjects face/eye) can sometimes (or, make that, often) prove to be too much of a challenge.
I feel I can get better results using spot single static AF and then watching in the optical viewfinder with the point I want to be in focus seems to get there, and take a bunch of shots that way. At least few will turn out ok. That's similar to what I think Bernard and others have suggested, although via manual focusing to begin with. I used that manual focus technique when I had a D800E and rented a Zeiss 135mm f/2. A lot less frustrating (and better optical results of course) than my current experience with the continuous AF with my current equipment.
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Hmm, I'm surprised that your optimal AF setting for 1.4 is the same as for f2.8. I'm not surprised at variance at distance (having encountered that myself). I looked up my old notes when I had a D800 and a rental 85mm 1.4G, and then had bought one. Here are those notes "Copy 1. Has focus shift to about f5.6. Manual focus via Live View shows xnlt sharpness at almost all apertures. Super sharp from 5.6 to about 11. Autofocus on the lens as it came from the factory apparently delivers max focus accuracy at about f5.6. Copy 2 (purchased) - the correct AF setting is near 0 to minus2 for 1.4, and perhaps -10 for f2.8 and smaller. There is purple fringing or spherochromatism heavy at 1.4 and 2." Lens Rentals (where I rented the lens from) tests lenses and reject those which aren't within their standards. The one I bought apparently was not as good as the one I rented, but lenses vary so much from copy to copy it's a crapshoot.
This is an excellent reply because it contains similar data. Thank you for sharing. You don't happen to know if the older 85mm 1.4 AF-D has the distance issue too, do you? I'm wondering if this is a case where newer isn't better. For some of the shooting I do (people), the distance issue is unacceptable. It would probably be fine for landscapes with automatic focus stacking, but I really bought this thing for shooting people. Sometimes it's a pain lugging around a 70-200mm 2.8, you know?
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It had been bugging me that your lensrental copy had focus shift, because I remember reading their glowing review of the 85mm f1.4g and I thought they said it didn't have focus shift. I went back and checked. Here's the excerpt:
The autofocus is quick and the lens is sharp corner to corner by f/2.8. It has almost no distortion. It’s flare resistant, it has little aberration, it doesn’t have focus shift – it really is just about perfect. If you look at my review of the old Nikon 85 f/1.4 D, I said that lens was badly in need of a makeover. Well, it got it. This one is just about perfect.
https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/nikon/lenses/normal-range/nikon-85mm-f1.4g-af-s
So much misinformation and or variation in this lens. Sigh. Real shame.
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(snipped from two different posts: )...You don't happen to know if the older 85mm 1.4 AF-D has the distance issue too, do you...
... So much misinformation and or variation in this lens. Sigh. Real shame....
I don't have personal experience with the 1.4/af-d. If I recall correctly most reviews say that the 1.4G is supposed to focus better.
Re the varying info that is out there on the 1.4g re focus shift or not. I take all the reviews on all equipment with a grain of salt or more because while the particular reviewer's results may be valid for their particular copy of camera body and lens and test equipment, it may not hold up for MY particular equipment. Roger at Lens Rentals usually tests more than one copy, so I have no idea why his results differ from photozone and diglloyd. Both 85 1.4Gs I had, including the rental copy did have focus shift. Focus shift is common for fast 50s and 85s, so I'm inclined to believe the lens really does have focus shift in general.
It seems like one bonus "joy" of digital photography is that there's seemingly little room for error. We have to deal with (1) higher mp DSRls being very revealing of flaws in technique and imperfections in lens to camera sensor alignment, optical flaws, etc. (2) phase detection autofocus lack of precision/accuracy/consistency (3) variations not only as expected in manufacturing tolerances but quality control that might have been good enough for 12mp DSLRs but not 36mp, (4) various camera body/lens interactions, (5) God knows what else...
I recently went through two copies of the 35mm f/1.4 Sigma lens for my D810. I had them at the same time, and shot a finely detailed subject at near infinity focus, a landscape including some buildings with several different types of fences. Besides showing moire very nicely it's proved to be a very demanding subject for sharpness across the field. I shot that subject at the same session with the two copies. One copy showed not only a much more highly variable autofocus (on that and other subjects), required the max af adjust of +20, but also was inferior in sharpness to the other copy,even when carefully manually focused with live view. The other copy was obviously sharper, required much less fine tune adjustment, and most importantly was much more consistent in AF results.
Perhaps if you can't get your particular lens to perform satisfactorily you might take a small gamble and send it in to Nikon as you indicated before. They might do a decent job and solve your problem, and if not, well, you haven't lost that much by trying.
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I don't have personal experience with the 1.4/af-d. If I recall correctly most reviews say that the 1.4G is supposed to focus better.
Re the varying info that is out there on the 1.4g re focus shift or not. I take all the reviews on all equipment with a grain of salt or more because while the particular reviewer's results may be valid for their particular copy of camera body and lens and test equipment, it may not hold up for MY particular equipment. Roger at Lens Rentals usually tests more than one copy, so I have no idea why his results differ from photozone and diglloyd. Both 85 1.4Gs I had, including the rental copy did have focus shift. Focus shift is common for fast 50s and 85s, so I'm inclined to believe the lens really does have focus shift in general.
It seems like one bonus "joy" of digital photography is that there's seemingly little room for error. We have to deal with (1) higher mp DSRls being very revealing of flaws in technique and imperfections in lens to camera sensor alignment, optical flaws, etc. (2) phase detection autofocus lack of precision/accuracy/consistency (3) variations not only as expected in manufacturing tolerances but quality control that might have been good enough for 12mp DSLRs but not 36mp, (4) various camera body/lens interactions, (5) God knows what else...
I recently went through two copies of the 35mm f/1.4 Sigma lens for my D810. I had them at the same time, and shot a finely detailed subject at near infinity focus, a landscape including some buildings with several different types of fences. Besides showing moire very nicely it's proved to be a very demanding subject for sharpness across the field. I shot that subject at the same session with the two copies. One copy showed not only a much more highly variable autofocus (on that and other subjects), required the max af adjust of +20, but also was inferior in sharpness to the other copy,even when carefully manually focused with live view. The other copy was obviously sharper, required much less fine tune adjustment, and most importantly was much more consistent in AF results.
Perhaps if you can't get your particular lens to perform satisfactorily you might take a small gamble and send it in to Nikon as you indicated before. They might do a decent job and solve your problem, and if not, well, you haven't lost that much by trying.
I don't know. What you're saying seems to be at complete odds with the review on the Amazon page for this lens. http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-85mm-1-4G-Nikkor-Digital/product-reviews/B003ZSHNE0
Everyone seems to love it, even on the D800, which seemed to be notorious for autofocus problems. Maybe I just have a lemon. Amazon is processing my return, even though I'm way past their normal return mark. I'll re-order another one as soon as that's done and report back. It'll be interesting to see what I find.
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Got a new copy of the 85mm 1.4g. It exhibits the exact same problem as the original, but it's more centered. -2 af tune at 6' and +2 af tune at 16'. I suspect that's how it's supposed to perform, so I'll probably keep this one.
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I have neither the D800 nor the f1.4 lense. What I have is the D3300 and a 35mm F1.8 lense, The DX sensor has smaller pixels, so the effect of vibration or camera shake should be same. If you need razor sharp AF, you use AF-S - Single Servo and not AF-C Continuous Servo. Some how AF-C in Nikon does not focus sharp, even if it is supposed to.
I have shot indoors in a Large Hall at marriage party at F1.8 at ISO 400 and less, with pretty sharp focus. If you feel that your hands shake (as mine do at times), then use a flash, it will "strobe" so that neither the object shake nor camera shake is usually evident.
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I've had a D3s since 2010, but recently bought a D810 for images where resolution matters.
One thing that's really knocking my socks off in a bad way is how much my 85mm f1.4g sucks on the D810, handheld. I was taking pictures of my daughter playing with legos this morning, or trying to, and I thought, NAH, I won't use the 70-200mm f2.8 VR II. It's too big and heavy. I'll just snap that little 85mm f1.4g on there and sneak some pictures while her attention is on the legos. Total fail. I set the shutter speed to 1/250s and every frame turned out blurry.
At first I thought I was getting some back or front focus on the body. Eventually, after playing around with different things and focusing manually with live view as a test, I bumped the shutter to 1/400s. That seemed to be ok. I then got my 70-200mm VR II out and tested how low I could go. I was reliably getting sharp photos at 85mm and 1/125s. That's a HUGE difference. I bought that fast prime to assist in shooting low light scenes hand held, but if I have to crank the shutter speed up to 1/400s to eliminate hand shake (I think I have a pretty steady hand too), that means I have to lower my f-stop to f1.8 or f1.4 just to get the shot at the same ISO. That's a worse picture, not a better picture!
Granted, if there was some serious action going on, the 85mm 1.4g could out perform the 70-200mm f2.8 in low light, but that's a really narrow use case.
Why in the heck didn't they ship these fast primes with VR? That would make these lenses so much more useful.
None of this matters on a tripod, of course. I just felt like ranting this morning. I think the D3s's resolution is low enough that I never noticed this before. Seems like the D810 just magnifies every little flaw in an image. You have to really be precise with it. Kind of a double edged sword.
You basically answered your own question.
All of this excitement isn't really over the D810, nor of VR, it's over your struggle with reality.
Essentially, if you're wanting the absolute highest image-quality you can get, and have the equipment to get it, then you need to use a tripod to produce those uncompromising results.
Bracing yourself, leaning against walls, etc. will never equal the stability of a tripod + mirror lock-up. Never.
If you want the sharpest images possible, use a tripod. That's what they're for.
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Sigh. Read the rest of the thread. The problem was focus shift.
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Sigh. Read the rest of the thread. The problem was focus shift.
Then why did you say, "None of this matters on a tripod, of course."?
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Do you honestly believe that the highest-resolving sensors + finest lenses render their sharpest images when hand-held?
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Do you honestly believe that the highest-resolving sensors + finest lenses render their sharpest images when hand-held?
I tested on a tripod. You're not reading.
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Do you honestly believe that the highest-resolving sensors + finest lenses render their sharpest images when hand-held?
Depends.
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Do you honestly believe that the highest-resolving sensors + finest lenses render their sharpest images when hand-held?
Steady hands with a good flash can achieve that, but it is easier with a tripod.
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Do you honestly believe that the highest-resolving sensors + finest lenses render their sharpest images when hand-held?
It is possible to get very sharp results hand held with the D810. In fact I have never had as many sharp hand held images (when looked at on screen at 100%) with another camera before.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5560/15246791842_934a120ac6_o.jpg)
Cheers,
Bernard
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I can also confirm the statement of Bernard. Specially with Nikon G Prime lenses 24 / 35 / 85
First look and feel: Otus 55 + 85 are outstanding performing on d810 with 64 base iso - excellent picture quality but manual focus.
I just have the 85 for one day ;-)
____
www.geisselbrecht.biz
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I can also confirm the statement of Bernard. Specially with Nikon G Prime lenses 24 / 35 / 85
First look and feel: Otus 55 + 85 are outstanding performing on d810 with 64 base iso - excellent picture quality but manual focus.
I just have the 85 for one day ;-)
The image above was shot with the Otus 55mm. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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I've had a D3s since 2010, but recently bought a D810 for images where resolution matters.
One thing that's really knocking my socks off in a bad way is how much my 85mm f1.4g sucks on the D810, handheld. I was taking pictures of my daughter playing with legos this morning, or trying to, and I thought, NAH, I won't use the 70-200mm f2.8 VR II. It's too big and heavy. I'll just snap that little 85mm f1.4g on there and sneak some pictures while her attention is on the legos. Total fail. I set the shutter speed to 1/250s and every frame turned out blurry.
At first I thought I was getting some back or front focus on the body. Eventually, after playing around with different things and focusing manually with live view as a test, I bumped the shutter to 1/400s. That seemed to be ok. I then got my 70-200mm VR II out and tested how low I could go. I was reliably getting sharp photos at 85mm and 1/125s. That's a HUGE difference. I bought that fast prime to assist in shooting low light scenes hand held, but if I have to crank the shutter speed up to 1/400s to eliminate hand shake (I think I have a pretty steady hand too), that means I have to lower my f-stop to f1.8 or f1.4 just to get the shot at the same ISO. That's a worse picture, not a better picture!
Granted, if there was some serious action going on, the 85mm 1.4g could out perform the 70-200mm f2.8 in low light, but that's a really narrow use case.
Why in the heck didn't they ship these fast primes with VR? That would make these lenses so much more useful.
You've discovered the extremely high pixel density makes the 800/810 not really suitable as a snap shot camera! The 35mm film/sensor size aready stressed the lens design and technique. And while we would all love all lenses to have the latest technology, real world considerations always intrude.
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You've discovered the extremely high pixel density makes the 800/810 not really suitable as a snap shot camera! The 35mm film/sensor size aready stressed the lens design and technique. And while we would all love all lenses to have the latest technology, real world considerations always intrude.
This simply isn't the case.
As mentioned already, the combination of Auto ISO, a very well damped shutter/mirror and, sometimes, live view results in a high ratio of very sharp hand held images, higher than with other cameras I have owned.
I shoot a lot more hand held now than I used to.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Actually the 24MP DX sensors have much higher densities, equivalent of 54MP on FX. That does not mean that you cannot get sharp hand held images from them. Yes at these high densities any error - focusing, camera shake or even wind results in a blurred image. The trick is to take it as fast as possible. I regularly use 1/500 or more without flash or use a flash to freeze action.
Here is a crop of handheld shot - F/22, 1/60 with flash, taken with D3300 (24MP no OLPF)
(http://)
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They used to say in the analog age.. choose a shutterspeed as fast or faster than the focal length..
Using the d800serie i think that still counts; maybe slightly faster...
breath out while press the release :)
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It's 2x or even 3x focal length for pixel level sharpness with the 36 mpix Nikons.
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I too agree with Bernard.
I've found that the D810 gives me handheld clarity (without VR!) using Zeiss 25/2, Nikon 58/1.4G, Coastal-Optics 60/4 (bought years ago before Otus), and Nikon 85/1.8G. I'm amazed.
I've been spoiled with the Olympus EM-1 with IS on everything and was dreading working without IS. I'm soooo happy!
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It's 2x or even 3x focal length for pixel level sharpness with the 36 mpix Nikons.
2x works well for me for lenses without VR.
The next image, manually focused with the Otus, was shot at 1/500s to freeze subject movement though. I just love the 3D effect that this lens delivers! ;)
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2942/15141226379_4e96217503_o.jpg)
Cheers,
Bernard
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D800, 85 f/1.8, handheld, available light:
(https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1235208_10151980628404209_1526541140_n.jpg?oh=c75db21a0d47a2346e2aba6eee074049&oe=54B1D953)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10290180_10152506393004209_5346985042459299675_n.jpg?oh=cb91618cffe2bb948b845b0674f8ae78&oe=54C7BA7A&__gda__=1422972780_df9f9c973827d71f3b735f4887a3f6b5)
Neither were in particularly great lighting conditions. Just practice good shot discipline. It's doable.
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Hi,
This is the key, with the D3s you don't see the lack of sharpness, with the D810 it is more obvious. Would yo compare prints the D810 would still be sharper.
One great thing with digital is that you have a fast feed back cycle. So when you see that your technique is lacking you can take action to improve it.
Best regards
Erik
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None of this matters on a tripod, of course. I just felt like ranting this morning. I think the D3s's resolution is low enough that I never noticed this before. Seems like the D810 just magnifies every little flaw in an image. You have to really be precise with it. Kind of a double edged sword.
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Welcome to the hell of ultra high-resolution photography. Folks in MF have been struggling with these realities for years. On the 645z I find 3x focal length to be the bare minimum for handheld. The 300mm never reaches optimum sharpeness under 1/100th, even on a tripod, bc of shutter vibration. And Viewfinder focus can really be off sometimes on all of these beasts.
Perfection is a bitch.
:-)
- N.
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Hi,
I would say that those issues are among the reasons we would be better off with:
- Mirrorless systems
- Electronic first curtain
A fully electronic shutter is noiseless and vibration free, but it may have other limitations like slow curtain travel.
Finally, wee should do something about the environment so we get solid ground instead of soil and no wind.
Best regards
Erik
Welcome to the hell of ultra high-resolution photography. Folks in MF have been struggling with these realities for years. On the 645z I find 3x focal length to be the bare minimum for handheld. The 300mm never reaches optimum sharpeness under 1/100th, even on a tripod, bc of shutter vibration. And Viewfinder focus can really be off sometimes on all of these beasts.
Perfection is a bitch.
:-)
- N.
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Finally, wee should do something about the environment so we get solid ground instead of soil and no wind.
Agreed. I have decided to stop taking pictures outside Class 1 clean rooms.
I have also just bought also a full spec BNC suit to reduce the impact of my breathing on the purity of the surrounding air.
Cheers,
Bernard
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you plan on helping when Ebola comes to Japan too...?
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The OP really wants this thread to die. Sigh.
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It's 2x or even 3x focal length for pixel level sharpness with the 36 mpix Nikons.
Back to the topic, I'm about ready to throw my D810 out the window. Although it works amazingly well in my studio on a tripod, in the field, I've been coming back with some of my money shots in the blur. I was on the AF-S NIKKOR 24mm f/1.4G ED this weekend and came back dissatisfied. My copy produces sharpness in the center more so than the edges, and clear motion or vibration blur in the crop when not shot from my tripod, even when shot at 1/400, although most of my shots were around 1/200 to 1/320. I haven't done nearly as much experimentation, but I'm going to start going through the motions like you. My 50mm 1.4 performs very well, handheld, very little if any vibration blur if any at all. I'd say 50% of my shots hand held on the wider lens did not come out well, using essentially the same technique in each shot. It was just really odd, that some came out well, and others were off.
I'll take this sucker home tonight and take some suggestions to see what I can come up with.
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Are U sure it is shake indiced blur? I strongly suspect focus issues.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Are U sure it is shake indiced blur? I strongly suspect focus issues.
Cheers,
Bernard
You know, I think you're right. I have an incredibly sharp architectural shot that is to the edges (handheld) I was examining last night. One of the things I've had problems with is the focusing on the d810. Is there some methodology to help this thing auto focus. I've been spending a fair amount of time letting it auto focus, and then popping into manual so I can quickly fire shots when needed. It's gotten to be one of my shooting habits on this camera, literally keeping a finger on the lenses AF-switch to manual.
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You know, I think you're right. I have an incredibly sharp architectural shot that is to the edges (handheld) I was examining last night. One of the things I've had problems with is the focusing on the d810. Is there some methodology to help this thing auto focus. I've been spending a fair amount of time letting it auto focus, and then popping into manual so I can quickly fire shots when needed. It's gotten to be one of my shooting habits on this camera, literally keeping a finger on the lenses AF-switch to manual.
I don't trust the d810 to focus properly for architecture, so I use a tripod and live view and zoom in to make sure. Sometimes I use a cam ranger and do the same via my iphone. Shrug.
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You know, I think you're right. I have an incredibly sharp architectural shot that is to the edges (handheld) I was examining last night. One of the things I've had problems with is the focusing on the d810. Is there some methodology to help this thing auto focus. I've been spending a fair amount of time letting it auto focus, and then popping into manual so I can quickly fire shots when needed. It's gotten to be one of my shooting habits on this camera, literally keeping a finger on the lenses AF-switch to manual.
Use the Af-on button with your thumb and don't focus with the shutter half press. Set priority to release not focus.
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Use the Af-on button with your thumb and don't focus with the shutter half press. Set priority to release not focus.
Exactly.
Focus with my 24mm f1.4 is nor very reliable either. It has never been with any of my bodies in fact.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I was on a recee yesterday looking for a location for a up coming car shoot. Anyway I took this shot as I was wondering around and I’m pleased with the look.
Nikon D810 camera and Nikon 50mm F1.4 G lens at F5.0.
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For handheld MF photography I find the new A7 II a killer camera: 24-Mpx, stabilized body, focus peaking and the ability to adapt tons of lenses. I don't think this is D800's territory, even if they are magnificient cameras at the studio or on a tripod.
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You guys are talking about the D800/D810.
I can only talk from the perspective of the Sony A7r - only the sensor is the same.
I can say that both motion blur and focus can be an issue with the Sony.
Even on a tripod the shutter can cause an issue at slower shutter speeds and I would not trust the AF on the A7r.
It is possible to shoot well handheld but again fast shutter speeds (at least 3X the focal length rule) and manual focus using focus peaking are required.
At least part of the issue is the high resolution sensor.
Tony Jay
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In my personal experience, and your mileage can and will vary, I find not just with my D800, but even my D700 and cameras before it, everything is sharper when I use a monopod, with or without VR. If I do not have a monopod, I lean against a wall, lamp post, sit at a table with my elbows on top of the table, etc, etc, etc. Even with VR and even shooting at speeds at or above 1/1000th, I have always found it helps.
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/619494-post1.html
:)
This function is not in the D810 bank menu. This role is maybe now held by the first electronic shutter function.
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Turn on the Electronic Shutter option and put the camera in Mirror lock-up mode. You will have zero movement inside the camera at time of shutter release if you are using a cable release. Alternately you can also enable shutter delay (I recommend 3 seconds). Now if you push the shutter button twice, the mirror will be up, the electronic shutter engaged and 3 seconds later the photo is taken, again with zero internal movement in the camera. The difference at some shutter speeds to what was achievable on the D800E or the D810 using the normal focal plane shutter at time of exposure can be significant in fine detail.
Of course none of that is that useful if you are shooting handheld as per the title of the thread.