Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: dumainew on August 01, 2014, 03:35:36 pm
-
Pesky problem: prints too dark and colors lack saturation.
Have been printing on an Epson Artisan 50 with good results. Have added a new R2880. Both print with the same poor results NOW.
Use OS Mavericks, a 2-year-old iMac calibrated with Color Munki, custom ICC profiles for both printers, and PS 2014. Workroom is fairly dark with medium tan walls and 2 ‘Ott’ lights behind monitor.
Have made the following adjustments to see if I can find a solution:
• With monitor have tried luminance of 80 and 120.
• With monitor have tried white points of 55 and 65.
• Have let PS and printer handle color.
• Have converted color space from ProPhoto to sRGB and back again.
• Have used 2 different packs of Epson Luster- both new.
I do view prints under the daylight corrected Ott lights and I take them outside in the sunlight to see if they're dark. And they still are! Wondering if somewhere I’m making a simple rookie mistake? I’ve followed both J. Schewe’s and the Digital Dog’s instructions as best I know how. How do you check that the driver settings are correctly configured? How do you check the output profile setting?
Below is a foto I’ve been trying to soft proof and print. It comes out, whatever I try, too dark in the shadows, missing color saturation and losing definition in the rising fog. (The soft translucent fog doesn’t show too well on this small jpg.)
Any help is much appreciated.
Richard
-
This stuff can be hard to diagnose, but the place to start is to be sure about when the trouble started relative to when you installed new hardware or software. If you can trace the beginning of the problem to such an install, and provided it is possible to do so, try uninstalling and see whether that takes you back to happiness, then re-install and see if you are messed-up again. That would begin to provide insight into the source of the problem.
-
What application are you printing from? Any chance you might be double managing?
-
What application are you printing from? Any chance you might be double managing?
Thank you for this suggestion. Before I try anything else, I'd like to check that. How does one find out if the app. is double managing? I'm printing out of PS.
-
First thing to do is print a color reference image like: http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip
If it's too dark, we know it's not the RGB values in the image. Then we can drill down the issues (print driver, media setting, profile etc).
Forget the display for now. If the print is too dark with the reference image, it's not a display or image issue, easier to figure out what is making things too dark.
-
Hi Andrew,
I did that, used your pattern, and when soft proofed the test came out fine.
Richard
-
I did that, used your pattern, and when soft proofed the test came out fine.
The print from my color reference looks OK in the soft proof and prints OK?
-
It does.
Had to first lighten it a bit, then saturate the blue and red. Turned out well.
-
It does.
Had to first lighten it a bit, then saturate the blue and red. Turned out well.
The whole point in a printer evaluation test print is that is should be printed unedited. If you have to lighten it a bit, then you have a failure somewhere in your workflow.
Brain A
-
Hi Hugo,
Hope this is the right way now.
Just printed it without any soft proofing, letting printer manage.
It looks a little washed out and maybe just a touch too dark. But not terrible.
What would this indicate to you ?
Thanks.
Richard
-
The whole point in a printer evaluation test print is that is should be printed unedited. If you have to lighten it a bit, then you have a failure somewhere in your workflow.
Agreed. OP is at least now saying the print wasn't way too dark. That's a start and tweaking such that the print and display match should be a bit easier now. But as you point out, the edit shouldn’t be the numbers in the document, it has to be elsewhere and perhaps it is just the print viewing conditions which can easily be raised.
-
Hi Andrew,
The test sheet does look OK (sort of).
The viewing area is a neutral colored wall with a bright color-corrected lamp on it (an Ott bulb). With the print up on the wall it does look closer to the right luminosity, but the colors still remain off- too washed out and off hue.
In the file attached to this thread, the dark areas lose detail and the rising fog on the left side, a sort of ethereal brick red color, comes out sulfury yellow. That continues happening even if I push the curves adjustment well up and the saturation slider well over- about 15.
Thanks for your help.
Richard
-
.................... letting printer manage......................
I'm no expert but I print from PS6; my workflow and everything I've read indicate to allow PS to manage the print. On the few occasions when I accidentally allowed the Epson 4900 to manage, the print was a disaster.
-
Glad to get your input.
Yes. Normally that's the way to go. But I seem to be having some problem with the computer to printer pipeline. Letting the printer handle the file was a way to rule in or rule out some mistake in how I was applying PS.
And as yet it's still not apparent to me what the fix is.
I just feel fortunate there's this website here with so much help and support.
Richard
-
In the file attached to this thread, the dark areas lose detail and the rising fog on the left side, a sort of ethereal brick red color, comes out sulfury yellow. That continues happening even if I push the curves adjustment well up and the saturation slider well over- about 15.
Hi Richard,
I've been following this thread and thought I'd throw in my 2¢ worth. Two things come to mind here. In your initial post you mentioned that you had recently added a new printer(R2880) to your system. I'm wondering if Mavericks has also installed the "Apple Epson Printer Update". Even though I'm not using Mavericks yet I understand that it installs certain software updates automatically, and the aforementioned update can sometime wreck havoc with some larger format printers. That was a huge issue a couple of years ago, but possible not so any longer. Even though that update always shows in the "Apple Software Updates" I NEVER install it, for that reason. A far as I know the only cure for that is a complete reset of the printing system and never install the update again. However, as I said, I don't know if that update is still an issue. It's meant mainly for smaller desktop printers and scanners, not the larger format models.
Also, something in the quote above caught my eye. If you are making some rather large curve adjustments that aren't showing in the prints, you might want to look into the possibility that you have a nozzle problem. Perhaps one of the nozzles is not firing at full force and there are intermittent gaps that could cause some colours to print far below expectations. Of course that wouldn't account for both printers having problems, but I'm wondering if you run nozzle checks on a regular basis. Sometimes these intermittent gaps will not necessarily manifest as banding, but simply a lack of performance in certain colours. From your description above I would start looking at the magenta nozzles first. Probably not a contributing factor in your case, but perhaps one more possibility to check off of your list. And of course there's the other question that I don't believe has been fully addressed. Make sure you are using the proper paper/printer profiles for the paper you are using, and also the correct media settings to accommodate those profiles.
Gary
-
Hi Hugo,
Hope this is the right way now.
Just printed it without any soft proofing, letting printer manage.
It looks a little washed out and maybe just a touch too dark. But not terrible.
What would this indicate to you ?
Thanks.
Richard
Richard, did you set your printer's color space to Adobe RGB - the image's color space - when you printed with printer managing? In my Canon iPF 5100 this is necessary with printer managing (which I never do). In PS/profile control, image color space is transparent. Your washed-out results results are consistent with an aRGB image printed in sRGB color space.
Pete
-
Hi Garnick and Pete,
Thank you both for your suggestions.
Checked nozzle flow and test sheet printed OK.
Then checked color space. As the soft proof is in Pro Photo I made sure the printer instructions were also PP. Following Jeff Schwewe's work flow in his 'Digital Print".
And much to my consternation, I'm still getting the same poor print.
Richard
-
And much to my consternation, I'm still getting the same poor print.
ALL images including reference or just your own?
-
Just my own.
-
Just my own.
Then it's the file and/or improper display calibration (it looks lighter than it really is).
-
Andrew,
You're quite right. The screen is too light, but I've darkened it down and the print to screen un-match remains (pretty much) the same.
Also just calibrated monitor. Using D65 and 80 screen . Color Munki.
Getting same results as D55 and 80 screen.
Working with soft proofed files.
Richard
-
In an attempt to standardize the lighting in your workspace try moving the lights to in front of your monitor. The Ott lites may not be up to the task. I use two 5,000k lights to illuminate my workspace and have calibrated using them as well. It essentially eliminated dark print surprises for me.
-
I noticed that printing on some papers gives darker results.
Printing on Hahenmuehle Baryta, for example, I have to lighten the images considerably, or the images come out too dark.
Printing on Moab Lasal matte, I can pretty much use the adjustments I have, only darken the darker areas.
It has a lot do do with the contrast range of a paper.
OP, have you tried other papers?
I went back to the old wet darkroom method of printing test strips. That's the only thing where you can evaluate how an image will turn out. Soft proofing is fine for a first look, but too rough to tell you anything. After all, comparing a monitor image to a printed image is a comparing totally different things.
-
I noticed that printing on some papers gives darker results.
Printing on Hahenmuehle Baryta, for example, I have to lighten the images considerably, or the images come out too dark.
Printing on Moab Lasal matte, I can pretty much use the adjustments I have, only darken the darker areas.
It has a lot do do with the contrast range of a paper.
Which is why, systems like SpectraView allow one to build a suite of calibration targets for differing papers and contrast ratio's. And allow you to switch on the fly to update the calibration and profile. You calibrate for matt paper, 200:1 contrast ratio with a fixed paper white, then differently for glossy paper with 300:1 ratio and whiter white. One size doesn't fit all. The technology exists to deal with this IF you pay for the technology.
-
Please consider that it is essential under which light you look at your prints. Be sure you use standard daylight, otherwhise, it doesn't really make sense to comparing with what you see on your display.