Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: erpman on July 30, 2014, 12:17:58 pm

Title: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: erpman on July 30, 2014, 12:17:58 pm
Hi all

Im looking to replace my heavy duty Induro AT-413 alloy tripod with one in carbon-fiber. Although very heavy, the aluminium legs vibrate somewhat in windy conditions. Since I do a lot of focus-stacking on semi-slow shutter speeds with a d800, tele-lens and a pano-head, I need a set of legs that are absolutely rock solid. I also want a fairly big one. Weight and size are of no importance to me, but the tripod needs to be without a center-column.

My impression is that I cant go wrong with the RSS TVC44 (http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/s.nl/it.A/id.10168/.f) or alternatively the TVC-34L (http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/s.nl/it.A/id.7827/.f)

But then I stumble over this new line-up from Induro, the Grand-series, a new series witout center-column at about 50% of the price of the RSS. Specifically the CT404 (http://www.indurogear.com/products/induro-grand-induro-series-ep-carbon-8x-tripods-ct404.aspx#specifications) looks very interesting.

Anyone have experience with these new carbon tripods from induro? Will $600 for an RSS tripod give me that much more wind stability? Is there a big difference in the carbon materials for example? Online tests that compare the two brands?
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: Ellis Vener on July 30, 2014, 12:30:32 pm
have you tried simply adding some ballast to your current set up?
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: NancyP on July 30, 2014, 12:45:19 pm
I too have observed that a heavy aluminum tripod (Manfrotto 055) vibrates in the wind. Annoyingly, Manfrotto didn't see fit to put a hook on its center column.
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: erpman on July 30, 2014, 01:08:16 pm
I have tried to weigh it down, although it helps some, I still get vibration... I assume this is related to the center column and the material. I have excluded vibration from wind catching the head/lens, as I used a large umbrella to shield the top part of the setup during the test.
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: NashvilleMike on July 30, 2014, 01:27:57 pm
I went through similar thoughts several years ago, and decided to stop screwing around with tripods.

I got one of the gitzo 5 series CF (the 5530S, which was replaced by the 5531S which I believe is still in the line). One of the best decisions I ever made. I like to shoot in very windy coastal weather at times and this thing has been a godsend. I know everyone rushes to knock on Gitzo and run off to Benro, Induro, and the rest, but the big heavy Gitzo has never failed me and I've put it (and the awesome RRS BH-55 head) through hell and back. Not cheap, but it's likely the last tripod I'll ever buy as there is nothing it can't handle. I think I've got 8 years on it so far.

That being said, if for some reason I couldn't buy a Gitzo, I'd buy the RRS (the heaviest one they make - the 44 I think) and be happy as well. I won't screw around with the knockoffs like Induro, Benro and the rest but that's just me. I spend a grand+ on a tripod, I want it to do 15 years of service if not longer.

Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: Robert DeCandido PhD on July 30, 2014, 03:11:11 pm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/140825804939?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

or (this is the one I use in Thailand and Nepal):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BENRO-Carbon-FIber-Pro-Video-Tripod-C3770T-for-Professional-Video-Shooting/330996246482?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D24143%26meid%3D8686020339452860354%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D10240%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D140825804939&rt=nc

sturdy as any heavyweight tripod...and from a 100% reliable seller. I have ordered two tripods from him (them) - and have received the tripods in less than a week.

My advice is not to pay the premium for those high end tripods - unless money is not a consideration in your life. I have used the best Gitzos and even a TVC-33 RRS tripod for  a bit...you don't need to spend a lot to get what you need...the Benro is just as good. And if you drop and break it, you can replace it and still be at about the cost of those brand name tripods.

I used an Induro tripod for bit (not the heavy weight model) - I thought (think) the Benro was a bit better made for about the same amount of money - for the high end models...

Good Luck whatever you decide -

rdc
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: Martin Ranger on July 30, 2014, 04:41:22 pm
I own neither an Induro nor a RSS tripod, but my Feisol is in every way as good as my Gitzo, which has now been sold.
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: DanielStone on July 31, 2014, 03:05:31 am
I own a Gitzo CF 3-series tripod, and also an Induro CT-214. BOTh have their benefits, and drawbacks. But they each serve specific purposes.

The Induro CAN be used with everything I shoot(M4/3, MF and a 5x7 Linhof field camera), but I use the larger Gitzo CF with the heavier gear like the GX680iii and the 5x7. The Induro gets used for M4/3 and my SL66 rig with an Acratech b/h, wonderful combo!

One thing that I would highly recommend for either: DO NOT let sand or dirt/grit get into the threads on the locking collars. If you leave it in there, you'll regret it. Trust me, keep those things clean!

Build quality? I'd say the Gitzo feels a bit more "hardy", but the Induro does a lot, and is really lightweight for what it offers.

If you can check them out in-person at a dealer, I'd highly recommend it.

-Dan
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: erpman on July 31, 2014, 08:12:39 am
Im leaning toward an RSS. Basically Im thinking that if I want proper wind stability and not spend time worrying about this problem when shooting, Im gonna have to pay up and get a tripod for life. Im a professional, so this should be a long term investment.

RSS has two models that I mentioned in the introduction: The RSS TVC-44 (http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/s.nl/it.A/id.10168/.f) or the TVC34L (http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/s.nl/it.A/id.7827/.f).

The 34 is 1 kg lighter, and a bit shorter. It will be at eye height when fully extended. The 44 goes up to 190 cm, so there is some extra height for uneven terrain etc. It also has a wider spider/mounting plate, which I frankly dont need.

I said that weight and size is of no importance, but I must admit that carrying a 3kg tripod (the 44) is heavy, and when spending this much on it I would like to get it out and in use. So that makes me interested in the lighter 34 (2kg). But how much stability, if any, is sacrificed for that weight reduction? Is the carbon in the RSS so stable that the 44 will just be overkill?

The gear that goes on top -my d800 camera/NN M2 pano head/leveling base- weigh a total of 5 kgs. But the pano head, because of its design where the camera is "hanging" on rails, is more sensitive to vibration than regular heads. So maybe that calls for an oversized tripod after all (the 44)?
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: NancyP on July 31, 2014, 11:47:17 am
I think that what you get with the 44 is height and video-capable (10+ kg) weight bearing load. I have seen birders with the 3 series RRS tripods and long lenses (total kit 10 kg or less, typically a 500mm f/4, Wimberley head, Canon 1D4 pro body). 34L is 70" high - that should be high enough unless you are a former NBA player.
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: Rory on July 31, 2014, 07:40:20 pm
I've shot with a number of Gitzo pods and currently own the original RRS TVC-33.  I would get the TVC-34L.  It will support more weight than you can put on it, you can hang more weight under it, but most important, it does a better job of damping high frequently resonance than the Gitzo.  Having said this, the Gitzo are very good and the leg tighteners work a titch better than the RRS ones.  I'd still get the RRS.
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: luxborealis on July 31, 2014, 07:53:42 pm
Hi all

Im looking to replace my heavy duty Induro AT-413 alloy tripod with one in carbon-fiber. Although very heavy, the aluminium legs vibrate somewhat in windy conditions. Since I do a lot of focus-stacking on semi-slow shutter speeds with a d800, tele-lens and a pano-head, I need a set of legs that are absolutely rock solid. I also want a fairly big one. Weight and size are of no importance to me, but the tripod needs to be without a center-column.


Ever thought about a wooden tripod? Absolutely rock solid; big; without a centre post. Add your favourite head. Reis is a name that comes to mind. (http://www.riestripod.com/products/tripods)
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: erpman on August 01, 2014, 12:45:36 pm
Ive thought about wood tripods, but unfortunately they are a bit bulky and impractical for me.

Came across the Gitzo GT3542XLS, it has the right height and weight, but is the 3-series beefy enough?

Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: joneil on August 01, 2014, 03:11:20 pm
 The Reis are wonderful, but if you are looking for a more compact wood tripod, look at the Berlebach:
http://www.berlebach.de/?sprache=english

  I use two of them myself.  I find, in my use, the wood legs damped down vibration quicker than aluminum.   I prefer them to anything in aluminum, even my Gitzo.   German engineering .   :)

  However, if money were no object, the new Gitzo carbon fibre tripods would be  the way to go for me, as I have not seen the Induros myself.  The Induros do look nice however, and I did not realize until l looked at your link that they were USA made.    I think in the long term, if you can afford it, CF is the way to go.   None of us are getting any younger and the light weight of CF is something you grow to appreciate over time.
:)

 
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: photodan on August 01, 2014, 11:54:21 pm
Tripods are just one of many things in photography which has subjective factors and differing objective experiences, due to the wide variety of photo equipment used on tripods and conditions of use including weather (like wind), and how picky a person might be in reference to evaluating sharpness.

So, with that caveat here's my 2cents. Since you are having a problem with wind already, then if you could afford it you might as well go the max and take care of the problem for sure.  A weight bearing stat on a tripod is one thing, but resistance to vibration is another (related but not one and the same). Larger diameter legs are more resistant to vibration generally (given the same material, brand, and design of the tripod). 

For your objective of eliminating vibration as much as feasible, I would go with the latest model carbon fiber Gitzo 5 series (such as GIGT5532LS, not the previous GIGT5531LS; the latest models are improved in stability over what was already excellent,  and hopefully improved in reliability from previous generations) or the RRS 4 series, or an A series (or possibly J-2) Ries wood tripod (or the heavier of the Berlebach pods, and there are a whole bunch, including those for small telescopes,  most not readily available in the USA). My own personal experience with RRS vs Gitzo is that RRS had better materials and much better customer service, while Gitzo had less vibration than RRS, when I had both a 3 series Gitzo and a RRS TVC-33 and did my own comparisons.
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: erpman on August 02, 2014, 06:23:32 am
Quote
For your objective of eliminating vibration as much as feasible, I would go with the latest model carbon fiber Gitzo 5 series (such as GIGT5532LS, not the previous GIGT5531LS; the latest models are improved in stability over what was already excellent,  and hopefully improved in reliability from previous generations) or the RRS 4 series, or an A series (or possibly J-2) Ries wood tripod (or the heavier of the Berlebach pods, and there are a whole bunch, including those for small telescopes,  most not readily available in the USA). My own personal experience with RRS vs Gitzo is that RRS had better materials and much better customer service, while Gitzo had less vibration than RRS, when I had both a 3 series Gitzo and a RRS TVC-33 and did my own comparisons.

I agree that the logical choice is to just go with the biggest one and be done with it. But then I started thinking that if I pay up this amount, I want to be able to bring the tripod also when I occationally walk over longer distances/climb mountains. Now I find that I leave my 3.2kg aluminum tripod in the car on those occations (and bring a smaller manfrotto CF).

So then I started looking at the Gitzo gt3542xls and found that the specs fit perfectly for my needs: Somewhat lighter than the 5-series, but still sturdy. Perfect max height 200cm and folded length. The 5 series are either eye level or way too big, there is no alternative in the 170-200cm range.

Given that, as you say, the new Gitzos seem to be better at vibration, confirmed by this test (http://www.pbase.com/nrothschild/tvc33vsgitzo) by Neil Rothschild (comparing a 3-series and rrs33, the gitzo wins), perhaps the latest 3-series could suffice? (considering that I shoot at max 200mm).

Would be interested to hear a little more about your experience with the 3-series in the wind.

In terms of a bigger alternative, the RRS44 seems better than the 5-series gitzos in terms of specs. RRS44 has a max height at 190cm, and folds to a practical length. Same weight as Gitzo 5 (a little too heavy for hikes). However it is very expensive.

Does anyone know the leg diameter of the 3- and 5- series respectively? And the RRS-44? Is there a difference in apex size between gitzo 3- and 5- series and RRS?

Also, how does an apex-mounted leveling base affect stability?
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: photodan on August 02, 2014, 04:24:58 pm
...
So then I started looking at the Gitzo gt3542xls and found that the specs fit perfectly for my needs: Somewhat lighter than the 5-series, but still sturdy. Perfect max height 200cm and folded length. The 5 series are either eye level or way too big, there is no alternative in the 170-200cm range.

Given that, as you say, the new Gitzos seem to be better at vibration, confirmed by this test (http://www.pbase.com/nrothschild/tvc33vsgitzo) by Neil Rothschild (comparing a 3-series and rrs33, the gitzo wins), perhaps the latest 3-series could suffice? (considering that I shoot at max 200mm).

Would be interested to hear a little more about your experience with the 3-series in the wind.

Does anyone know the leg diameter of the 3- and 5- series respectively? And the RRS-44? Is there a difference in apex size between gitzo 3- and 5- series and RRS?

Also, how does an apex-mounted leveling base affect stability?

The best advice so far is probably from Ellis; so, you might try adding a good amount of weight to the tripod you have, and be sure to have the weight that hangs from the hook on the bottom of the center column actually hits the ground, with the cord very taught. If that improves things for you then the same concept would work if you get a carbon fiber tripod such as the Gitzo or RRS 3 series variants. 

When I was using very long lenses with the 3-series carbon tripods, and an Arca Swiss B1 & Z1 heads I felt that the setup was really top heavy, and I had to be careful about not having it too much off kilter on uneven ground, or people (including myself) bumping into it, or the odd strong gust of wind knocking it over, or at least out of placement. Not a major problem, and not a problem at all if you're reasonably careful. However those potential issues are not nearly as much of a problem with a larger pod, but of course those pods are more cumbersome to carry.

If you are dealing with very strong winds, especially unexpected exceptionally strong gusts of wind then you are likely to need the ballast even with the largest carbon fiber tripods, in order to prevent your camera and lens from taking a trip to photo equipment heaven.

I did notice a little wind induced blurring for some telephoto shots with my 3-series carbon tripod that I traced to the legs. However the  biggest source of vibration was due to the lens and camera being moved by the wind. If you're using a pano set-up, where there's more surface area exposed to the wind (the head, camera, and large lens) then that's even more of a concern.

You're properly concerned about a large tripod not being that viable for long hikes. The 5-series Gitzo weighs about 6.5lbs, which is really not that heavy, however the larger top plate (which is an important aspect of stability esp. as regards torsion stresses) and the larger diameter legs make it not nearly as comfortable to transport.

When I used to shoot large format cameras (4x5 to 8x10) I found that wind was a real pain - and it was the camera that was being vibrated, not the tripod much if at all. I tried the umbrella approach and one time after a gust of wind blew it inside out and a corner of it into my eye I decided I just didn't want to deal with it any more. Sometimes there just is no 100% solution :-)
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: erpman on August 02, 2014, 06:18:53 pm
Yeah, there is only so much the equipment can do for you. Ive been using an umbrella to shield the head/camera, which has worked well in moderate winds. I hope I wont have to share your experience with it though ;) But the decision to get a new tripod actually started when I realized that an umbrella did not prevent wind vibration in my current tripod, even when weighing it down.

I do however like the weight of the aluminum, it feels very safe. But there is something about how the tripod hangs on the outside of the backpack - a small difference in weight makes a big impact on how the pack carries. 

The Gitzo 4-series, with a good system to attach weights on the ground could be a solution. As I understand, the 4 series has beefier legs but the same apex size as the 3-series, making it more portable. The GT4542LS, although not as high as I wanted, seems to be the best size and weight (5.1 lbs).

It guess that the 4-series would be more stable than the RRS TVC-33L (Since a 3-series beat it in the test that I linked to, which seemed pretty thorough).
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: erpman on August 04, 2014, 06:59:19 am
I landed on a Gitzo GT4542LS, which I think is a good balance between size and stability. Im on my way down to the camera store now, so if you think Im about to make a totally wrong desicion please speak now  :o
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: malikknows on September 26, 2014, 12:18:10 pm
Hi Erpman: In the market for a new tripod myself and noticed your desire for one without a center-post.  Why so?  I notice that most of the RRS tripods do not have this feature.  I've got a gitzo traveller with one and I have to say I love that I can adjust for height very easily. 
Yours,
Malik
Title: Re: The new Induro CF- tripods vs RSS
Post by: allegretto on September 26, 2014, 01:23:56 pm
If you're a guy who shoots heavy rig in windy/inhospitable climes, and shoots just about anything else... you need a couple of good tripods.

Strong tripods are not light, regardless of what material they are made from, and light tripods seem not to be for your money shots

I use an RRS 34L w/BH-40 for difficult circumstances, but a Gitzo Traveler with a BH-30 for everything else. BTW, I also use a center post for small adjustments. I realize that tripod purists eschew them, but unless it's bad out there I'd rather the option of a few cm of lift. Not sure it ha a big effect on vibratory modes.. Fully extended is of course a different story

Not sure why anyone would want a metal tripod. The resonant frequencies are in the wrong place. COLD...!!! Probably the "Original Carbon Fiber" (wood) is best, but sooo heavy