Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Pro Business Discussion => Topic started by: trevarthan on July 21, 2014, 01:53:37 pm
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I assume some of you must be making money shooting landscapes. Indeed, some of you may do it full time for a living. The general opinion seems to be that making money shooting landscapes is too hard or impossible today, due to market saturation.
How do you do it? Where do you sell your work? Do you see it as sustainable?
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In my case there are three keys to selling my landscapes. First is to have really good prints in the popular sizes. Second is to have plenty of local interest (mine is Southwest locations in general, Superstition Mountain Arizona area in particular). Third is to have a gallery/outlet with exceptionally good traffic that will display at least 25 -50 of your scenes. In the last full season my best outlet sold around 550 framed prints and canvasses in a mix of sizes from 8x10 to 24x84.
I'd have to say that, of the three necessities, LOCAL content is the most important. But lack of the other two will degrade total sales considerably.
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Hi,
Is that location where you sold 550 prints in Phoenix? I used to live in Sedona and it is an excellent location for galleries but at a price!
Mike
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Mike, that outlet I cited is one of several hundred vendors in Mesa Market. The location at one time was an open-air venue (flea market style) with folks selling stuff from their car trunks. It has morphed into roofed buildings and concrete floors and can have tens of thousands of people going through it every day. My outlet is a high-volume framer with a nearby factory that mats and frames art and photo prints and sells directly to the public. A retail price point example: 24 x 30 Epson print with triple mats, glass, and wide, wood-like moulding, for $195.
If you have anyplace like Mesa Market Place near you, it may pay you to take a look. http://www.yelp.com/biz/mesa-market-place-swap-meet-mesa
This is definitely not like the galleries in Sedona! This is closer to being in an ant hill. It's not an "artsy" crowd, but an amazingly high income group for the plain-Jane trappings. What sells here, art-wise, is LOCAL scenics.
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Wow this looks like a nice deal! The problem with a regular gallery location is the amount of time one would have to spend running it which would take away from being able to go out and do photography. If I understand this correctly you don`t need to be there at all and someone else does the framing? If you don`t mind saying what percent of the selling price is profit?
Mike
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I set my print prices to them at 2 to 5 times my printing (Epson 9900) and other costs. For this type of outlet volume trumps higher markups every time.
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A retail price point example: 24 x 30 Epson print with triple mats, glass, and wide, wood-like moulding, for $195.
OMG that's inexpensive. Around here (southern Ontario) it would be at least that cost just for the triple matting and framing alone. If you're making good money from those prices, that's great!
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What print size and type do you sell the most? Any canvas prints?
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OMG that's inexpensive. Around here (southern Ontario) it would be at least that cost just for the triple matting and framing alone. If you're making good money from those prices, that's great!
When I first saw the pictures they were selling at Mesa Market my first thought was that I could pay them the full retail price, tear out the art, and slap my own images into it--and still be paying less than 1/2 the price that any other local framer would charge. That led to asking if they (the owners) had any requests for local scenes, which they had lots of. I ended up supplying them dozens of local scenes and dozens of other Southwest scenes.
It's amazing how low those supplies cost when buying in large volumes. They can produce several hundred matted and framed pieces per week.
Sizes range from 8x10 paper prints to 24x84 canvas prints. The most popular large canvas (mountain scene) is 18x62 and sells, on average, every 4 to 6 days during the winter season.
This arrangement also channels many special size orders direct to me with my higher profit margins. In most cases the outlet ends up with the custom framing job.
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OMG that's inexpensive. Around here (southern Ontario) it would be at least that cost just for the triple matting and framing alone. If you're making good money from those prices, that's great!
In Canada, you get hit with a double whammy. Not only the manufacturing costs are higher, but also the discretional spending is lower.
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In Canada, you get hit with a double whammy. Not only the manufacturing costs are higher, but also the discretional spending is lower.
An artist friend of mine here in SW Ontario who makes a living selling prints of his artwork found the only real way to handle this situation was to both make his own prints and do his own matting and framing. I forget what epson printer model he has, but it is litterally bigger than the stove in his kitchen. :) Also, the workshop he has for matting and framing would put most framing stores to shame.
But the downside is the large amount of money and space and time he has invested in computers, software, inks & maintainence for his printer, supplies for his framing, etc, etc. It is just incredible. From a strickly business point of view, I would estimate that the costs of his actual art supplies - paints (oil and water), his brushes, canvases, etc, etc, is less than 20% of his whole overall business overhead. If anyone is thinking of going the route, bear that in mind.
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Printing and matting I do as a matter of course just to ensure my photographs are properly "contained" for shipping and for framing. Framing I don't do unless a client specifically asks me to as making frames is a pain for someone like me whose carpentry skills leave much to be desired!
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I have an Canon ipf8400 that I use to print on canvas. I make my own stretcher bars (cut and router them), most common size is 1.5". The cost of canvas per print is $15, wood is $5 and it takes me an hour to make them. They sell for $200 for a ~18x27".
I would like to get into framing and matting though. In my dream I would like to buy a Chromira printer so i can print on Fujiflex, eventually making Peter Lik style prints.
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In Canada, you get hit with a double whammy. Not only the manufacturing costs are higher, but also the discretional spending is lower.
There is also, at least in rural Western Canada, little recognition that photography is an art form.
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Why not try shooting landscapes for those that need landscape images for their marketing?
Country clubs would need great images of their golf courses. Ski resorts need images of their slopes. Resorts need images of their lands.
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Speaking of the Cromira This spring I missed out on a government surplus auction for a Cromira that sold for about $2,500! I would have bid on it had I known in time.
Mike
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In my case there are three keys to selling my landscapes. First is to have really good prints in the popular sizes. Second is to have plenty of local interest (mine is Southwest locations in general, Superstition Mountain Arizona area in particular). Third is to have a gallery/outlet with exceptionally good traffic that will display at least 25 -50 of your scenes. In the last full season my best outlet sold around 550 framed prints and canvasses in a mix of sizes from 8x10 to 24x84.
I'd have to say that, of the three necessities, LOCAL content is the most important. But lack of the other two will degrade total sales considerably.
I'v been just starting to try and get into this market over the last few months(after doing it more casually previously) and so far I'd agree with this.
I guess the natural assumption many have(certainly what I had) is that most interest would be in amazing exotic locations but as you say its local interest that's really sold with probably 70% very local and 95% regional with the 5% more exotic generally being not obviously "of" a location. Actually a very positive surprise for me since it means that the cost of getting to locations is minimal and I can be out shooting whenever the weather is agreeable(to good photography).
I spose the kind of sales depend a lot on the kind of outlet, I'v got a bit or work in some small shops and a local hotel(none of which really idea for sales) but my main sales are though a quite well attended farm/craft market every Saturday within a few mins of my house. In that outlet I'v found the real business isn't actually framed prints but mounted ones backed with card and wrapped in plastic, transport is a big issue here as most people at the market won't want to carry a big frame around with them.
Getting really good locations beyond this has been the main sticking point in expanding things further. I'v found pretty much all markets/shows that might do good business near me happen on a Saturday so not an option as my present market needs both weekly attendance and benefits a lot from it(a lot of sales come from customers making 2-3 visits). The area I live in is actually quite an active art market but its had the upshot that rented gallery space is generally prohibitively expensive, 40-45% commission is common. Sadly I'v found that in artist co-ops that seemed like they might be the answer(spreading rental costs and manning) photographers especially seem VERY adverse to competition, two well known local ones I'v applied to so far(who both had multiple members selling similar arts/crafts to each other) and were generally positive about my work ended up refusing me based on an existing photographer member not wanting any competition.
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I think if you want to focus on selling prints then you have to cater to the market in every possible way, and probably also spend much of your time marketing your work.
If you want to spend your time exploring your creativity and producing prints as an artist, then you should be happy if someone else connects or finds inspiration in your work and buys something.
Although not exclusive, the two often don't coincide for most of us.
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There is plenty of money to be made as a landscape photographer and the more you diversify your business to include multiple revenue streams, the better you'll do. We own a gallery in Moab where we sell a couple hundred prints each year. Some are just small matted prints at a low cost and others are large, ready to hang prints, and everything in between. I also market my work for stock which is just another revenue stream coming from landscapes. This income is hardly enough to sustain a business but when it is added on to other income sources it's a nice supplement.
I've heard lots of people say that you can't make a living as a landscape photographer. Bull! You can, but you need to be a good businessperson as well as a talented photographer. There's a lot more to it than this but the short answer to your question is: YES, you can make money selling landscapes.
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Hi Bret,
I see from your blog that you use a Canon 5DIII. Is there a reason that you are not using medium format digital?
Mike
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Hi Bret,
I see from your blog that you use a Canon 5DIII. Is there a reason that you are not using medium format digital?
Mike
Yes. Quite simply, I can't afford it.
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What medium format would you go with if you were to switch? Do you use the Canon tilt shift lenses a lot? I don`t think there is a medium format lineup with the same range of T/S lenses?
Mike
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What medium format would you go with if you were to switch? Do you use the Canon tilt shift lenses a lot? I don`t think there is a medium format lineup with the same range of T/S lenses?
Mike
I would use the Pentax 645Z. I know several people who have been using the 645D and I've seen very large prints they've made from those files. They're gorgeous. Just gorgeous. And so rich with detail it's astounding. I've worked with quite a few photographers at my workshops who use Phase One, Hasselblad and some of the other medium format digital cameras and I'm not impressed. Sure, the image quality is very high but the whole interface is clunky. Pentax nailed it. The digital 645's UI is slick and the camera just feels good in hand. Well balanced, fully integrated system that has been nicely engineered. Of course, I'm opening myself up to all the fans of the other systems but the bottom line is, Pentax is what would work for ME and that's all that matters to ME.
Also, realistically, I'd have two systems: a Sony a6000 for adventure photography and the Pentax for landscapes. I need super fast auto-focus and frame rates for mountain biking and trail running, both of which are traits not associated with any medium format digital.
I don't currently use any Canon t/s lenses although I'm budgeting to pick up the 17mm model next year.
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I would use the Pentax 645Z. I know several people who have been using the 645D and I've seen very large prints they've made from those files. They're gorgeous. Just gorgeous. And so rich with detail it's astounding. I've worked with quite a few photographers at my workshops who use Phase One, Hasselblad and some of the other medium format digital cameras and I'm not impressed. Sure, the image quality is very high but the whole interface is clunky. Pentax nailed it. The digital 645's UI is slick and the camera just feels good in hand. Well balanced, fully integrated system that has been nicely engineered. Of course, I'm opening myself up to all the fans of the other systems but the bottom line is, Pentax is what would work for ME and that's all that matters to ME.
Also, realistically, I'd have two systems: a Sony a7 for all adventure photography I do and the Pentax for landscapes. I need super fast auto-focus and frame rates for mountain biking and trail running, both of which are traits not associated with any medium format digital.
I don't currently use any Canon t/s lenses although I'm budgeting to pick up the 17mm model next year.
How big of prints are we talking about here that would need medium format? And how often do you sell a print that size? I just printed out one of my d810 focus stacked photos 60x40" on canvas just to get a feel for how large I can go. I don't think I've hit the wall yet at that size. It looks like I can go larger. But frankly, I'm not sure if anyone will ever buy anything that large. I paid $430 for the print. I have no idea how much I'd charge to sell it, but at least 2x that amount. Someone would need deep pockets indeed and have to really love that photo to order it that big.
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How big of prints are we talking about here that would need medium format? And how often do you sell a print that size? I just printed out one of my d810 focus stacked photos 60x40" on canvas just to get a feel for how large I can go. I don't think I've hit the wall yet at that size. It looks like I can go larger. But frankly, I'm not sure if anyone will ever buy anything that large. I paid $430 for the print. I have no idea how much I'd charge to sell it, but at least 2x that amount. Someone would need deep pockets indeed and have to really love that photo to order it that big.
The largest size I offer now is 32" x 48" and we sell more of that size than any other. I've made a handful of 40" x 60" prints which is definitely the limit for files from the 5DII and even then, you've got to start with a dead perfect image file. I've had requests for larger, primarily for commercial spaces. I've seen 40" x 60" D800 prints and when compared to those from the 645D, there is a discernible difference in quality. The D800 and D810 are certainly exceptional cameras but the larger sensor of medium format definitely records more information and detail, and the resultant prints are just better.
I'm in no way bashing the D800 or D810. They're damn fine cameras and they produce crazy good prints.
With regard to who buys prints at that size, there are really two types of clients: those who need huge prints for commercial spaces and those who are affluent and have big houses with big walls. Both are very good clients. :-)
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The largest size I offer now is 32" x 48" and we sell more of that size than any other. I've made a handful of 40" x 60" prints which is definitely the limit for files from the 5DII and even then, you've got to start with a dead perfect image file. I've had requests for larger, primarily for commercial spaces. I've seen 40" x 60" D800 prints and when compared to those from the 645D, there is a discernible difference in quality. The D800 and D810 are certainly exceptional cameras but the larger sensor of medium format definitely records more information and detail, and the resultant prints are just better.
I'm in no way bashing the D800 or D810. They're damn fine cameras and they produce crazy good prints.
With regard to who buys prints at that size, there are really two types of clients: those who need huge prints for commercial spaces and those who are affluent and have big houses with big walls. Both are very good clients. :-)
That makes sense. I completely forgot about commercial spaces. I guess those are normally framed prints too, which lowers cost a bit (if you ignore the frame price).
I'd like to see a 645D print at 60x40" for comparison. That would be something. I've found my lens choice makes a huge difference on the d810. Photos taken with zooms are visibly lower quality than the fast primes. My understanding is that medium format lenses tend to blow away 35mm lenses, but I've just never had an opportunity to compare first hand.
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How big of prints are we talking about here that would need medium format? And how often do you sell a print that size? I just printed out one of my d810 focus stacked photos 60x40" on canvas just to get a feel for how large I can go. I don't think I've hit the wall yet at that size. It looks like I can go larger...
Canvas tolerates rather well 100 ppi, so you can go up to 50"x75" without interpolation. With a proper interpolation, you can easily go 2-3x that on canvas.
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I like what I have read about the Pentax 645 but my first choice is the Leica S2. The price for a used one is coming down to the $8,000 level so it would be tough to choose between the two for me.
Mike
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I assume some of you must be making money shooting landscapes. Indeed, some of you may do it full time for a living. The general opinion seems to be that making money shooting landscapes is too hard or impossible today, due to market saturation.
How do you do it? Where do you sell your work? Do you see it as sustainable?
I can't say about landscapes. But let me tell you about my field....social documentary photography.
One of my latest artists' books was on cutters that practice self harm / self mutilation. It is the ONLY photo book of its kind in the world as far as I can tell. (Nothing under its genre on WorldCat or anywhere I can find.) I had printed it as a limited edition of 30 hand printed books as bound archival pigment prints and offered it as a free donation to special collection libraries and museums. The books are spiral bound with artisan made marbled end sheets and frosted clear plastic covers. I don't want to put a photo of the book here, but the book in question is similar to this one.
http://twentysixroadkills.tumblr.com/
The rejection rate was 85% to 90% for placements of a free donation of the self mutilation book. When all is said and done I had spent about $3500 on this public service donation project. I was able to place 29 out of 30 copies of the book. I'm not some newcomer either. My work is in close to 100 museums and public collections around the world. I am also a leader in hand printed photo book art. Now with other less controversial topics the rejection rate may only be 60% - 70%. But sometimes the rejection rate is 95% for a donation. Anyway you slice it, the going is tough.
My philosophy is 'don't shit where you eat.' I do something else for $ and do photography for love of freezing time. if you want $ I'd suggest you do something else. There are lots easier ways to make $. Then again you have the likes of Cindy Sherman and Eggleston that can get millions for garbage. So don't let me burst your dream photo bubble. You give it a try. Either you can or can't. Maybe you do much better work than Sherman and Eggleston combined and can get 10 million a print! With my line of photography I am happy if I can place my work as donations to large institutions.
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Hi Mike,
I've been selling prints for years and have wanted to open my own gallery but there never seems to be the right situation. It needs to have great lighting, needs to be cheap to rent and have high volume. Full markup is 400%, then you can discount if you want.
Since I live in a small town, I'm near Cortez, Co. the volume is a little low and places to rent are old, and over priced.
I sell 24x30's mainly framed and matted, do my own framing but can't sell them for $195. I use Tru-Vue non-glare glass and Larsen-Jule frames selling for $750.00
I hang in a restaurant in Cortez, not great but big enough to show 30 pieces, which I rotate out throughout the year.
I've gone to canvas which I can sell for about half the framed ones and don't have to worry about glass problems but do have to worry about wafting grease. I do have to clean glass occasionally, which worries me about the canvas being somewhat unprotected.
Doing shows can be a big secondary revenue generator but you have to want to travel with all the necessary equipment. Big truck or van and trailer, tent, tables etc. I figured I'd need a double 10x10 space to show larger pieces. Then you need to print more sizes to have multiple price points.
And then I'd be divorced cause my wife doesn't think that is a life style she wants.
It's a tough nut to crack. Good luck.
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... Then again you have the likes of Cindy Sherman and Eggleston that can get millions for garbage.
It shows the lack of understanding of photography as an art form, clearly.
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It shows the lack of understanding of photography as an art form, clearly.
Or just lack an understanding of photography as a business. Millions = well done, in my book.