Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: dgillilan on June 15, 2014, 08:01:32 pm
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Hello,
I am seeing lots of various descriptions of paper by paper mfrs. and I want to see if I am interpreting these correctly.
If a paper company states "100 % cotton", or "cotton linters", or "all cotton", then that is the finest quality, right?
If a paper is stated as "internally buffered", what does that mean? (crane museo max)
What does "chemically treated woodpulp" do to a paper"(Innova Soft textured Natural white IFA-12(not IFA 22) ?
What does "velina finish" mean ?(Crane museo max) ?
If a paper is acid-free, it still may not be 100 % cotton, right?
Canson Infinity BFK Rives states "100 % rag" - this is also another way of stating 100 % cotton, right?
Thanks for any clarifications,
Debra
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If a paper company states "100 % cotton", or "cotton linters", or "all cotton", then that is the finest quality, right?
'Cotton linters' could simply imply some cotton content, the other two are fairly obviously 100% cotton, but with no implication of quality, just that the paper base is cotton.
If a paper is stated as "internally buffered", what does that mean? (crane museo max)
It means that an alkaili has been added to the pulp, usually calcium carbonate.
What does "chemically treated woodpulp" do to a paper"(Innova Soft textured Natural white IFA-12(not IFA 22) ?
By itself, it doesn't mean much. There are all sorts of chemical processes used in pulping wood.
What does "velina finish" mean ?(Crane museo max) ?
The term comes from vellum (qv). It is a relatively smooth velvety surface.
If a paper is acid-free, it still may not be 100 % cotton, right?
Correct. I can't think of a inkjet paper from a major manufacturer, such as Canson or Hahnemuhle, that isn't acid free. BUt Hahnemuhle German Etching (an excellent paer by the way) is made from wood pulp. Paper makers are prone to using the term '100% alpha-cellulose' for wood pulp based papers, but but cotton is essentially ninety something percent cellulose.
Canson Infinity BFK Rives states "100 % rag" - this is also another way of stating 100 % cotton, right?
Yep. They don't make paper for cotton or linen rags any more, but the term persists.
When I was much younger, a guy would come round the streets with a hand cart once a month or so shouting 'rags and bones'. He paid small sums for both: the rags destined for paper pulp, the bones for glue and fertilizer production. An early form of recycling.
The cloth production industry is still often referred to as the 'rag trade'.
Brian A
Brian A
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Thank you for the reply, I think I will try to use those papers that state the 100 % cotton or rag designation. I try to get the best quality that I can.
Thanks, Debra
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Thank you for the reply, I think I will try to use those papers that state the 100 % cotton or rag designation. I try to get the best quality that I can.
100% cotton is no guarantee of quality, and there are surfaces that can’t be achieved with an all cotton base. Other materials have their place.
You will never get as smooth a surface with cotton as you can with wood pulp. There are textures, such as German Etching, which I have never seen in a cotton base. There are also other fine materials: such as mulberry, Kenaf, sugar cane (bagasse), and bamboo.
If you want to try papers, buy sample packs. I would particularly recomend those from Hahnemühle and Canson-Infinity.
Brian A
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There are textures, such as German Etching, which I have never seen in a cotton base.
Brian A
I agree with most of what you wrote.
HM William Turner comes close to GE though, turn samples 90 degr to one another too. Also be aware that there are variations in texture from batch to batch or within the batch for the first meters paper produced to the last, the felt getting filled with paper lint at the end of the production run. Used to be worse for GE in the past.
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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
April 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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Thank you Brian and Ernst; I did not realize that some surfaces are impossible with all cotton, nor that variations in texture can occur, I do have some William Turner and German Etching, I'll check to see if I observe that,
Thank you, Debra
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Thank you for the reply, I think I will try to use those papers that state the 100 % cotton or rag designation. I try to get the best quality that I can.
Thanks, Debra
It's not just the paper stock that's important but also the coating with regard to durability and color fastness (which is also dependent on the type of printer your are using and it's ink set). You should go to the Aardenburg site (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/index.html) and read about and study some of the test results that are posted there. For example, Museo Portfolio Rag is a wonderful paper in terms of stock and surface but performs somewhat badly on light fast testing. In addition, 100% cotton does not imply that it's the best available paper. Appropriately buffered and manufactured 100% alpha-cellulose papers are just as good. The other important factor is whether there are any Optical Brightening Agents (usually fluorescent dyes) in the paper as these can degrade quickly leaving a yellow cast to the paper (best example here is Epson Exhibition Fiber). You can look at Ernst Dinkla's data base to see which papers have high OBA.
There's more than meets the eye in terms of picking a paper. :D
Alan
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It's not just the paper stock that's important but also the coating with regard to durability and color fastness (which is also dependent on the type of printer your are using and it's ink set). You should go to the Aardenburg site (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/index.html) and read about and study some of the test results that are posted there. For example, Museo Portfolio Rag is a wonderful paper in terms of stock and surface but performs somewhat badly on light fast testing. In addition, 100% cotton does not imply that it's the best available paper. Appropriately buffered and manufactured 100% alpha-cellulose papers are just as good. The other important factor is whether there are any Optical Brightening Agents (usually fluorescent dyes) in the paper as these can degrade quickly leaving a yellow cast to the paper (best example here is Epson Exhibition Fiber). You can look at Ernst Dinkla's data base to see which papers have high OBA.
There's more than meets the eye in terms of picking a paper. :D
Alan
This is why I love pure carbon inks for black-and-white images. You can choose a paper purely for its physical characteristics and appearance and completely ignore lightfastness, since carbon is fadeproof anyway. You can't do that with any other inkset as yet.
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This is why I love pure carbon inks for black-and-white images. You can choose a paper purely for its physical characteristics and appearance and completely ignore lightfastness, since carbon is fadeproof anyway. You can't do that with any other inkset as yet.
Check out ID# 146 in the Ardenburg light fade database. Pure carbon ink, yes...but totally undermined by a paper that is sold with all the right touchstone words "like 100% cotton, acid-fee, archival, etc.". The artist also needs to be aware of media durability factors which often cannot be observed by simple inspection of initial media texture, color, etc. Hence, pure carbon image particles alone, although a step in the right direction, are no guarantee for excellent print durability over time. More knowledge about total system compatibility is needed if longevity is of genuine concern to the artist. Unfortunately, the industry isn't very supportive of or forthcoming about conducting and publishing this type of product information which leaves the job of gathering that knowledge to the printmaking community itself.
cheers,
mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Check out ID# 146 in the Ardenburg light fade database. Pure carbon ink, yes...but totally undermined by a paper that is sold with all the right touchstone words "like 100% cotton, acid-fee, archival, etc.". The artist also needs to be aware of media durability factors which often cannot be observed by simple inspection of initial media texture, color, etc. Hence, pure carbon image particles alone, although a step in the right direction, are no guarantee for excellent print durability over time. More knowledge about total system compatibility is needed if longevity is of genuine concern to the artist. Unfortunately, the industry isn't very supportive of or forthcoming about conducting and publishing this type of product information which leaves the job of gathering that knowledge to the printmaking community itself.
cheers,
mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Seems like #146 shows very rapid OBA burnout, causing the change in colour early on in the test. But the pigments themselves were more-or-less permanent, and, once the OBAs burned out, there wasn't any further colour shift - the results at 140Mlux-hrs are much the same as those at 40 Mlux-hrs.
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Seems like #146 shows very rapid OBA burnout, causing the change in colour early on in the test. But the pigments themselves were more-or-less permanent, and, once the OBAs burned out, there wasn't any further colour shift - the results at 140Mlux-hrs are much the same as those at 40 Mlux-hrs.
All true, the fading curve of the ink/media combination displays a bifurcated response due to the two different component behaviors (ink versus OBAs). The degradation rate slows down dramatically after the OBAs burn out, and the image therefore doesn't fade dramatically as it might if the ink was also fade prone. Nevertheless, from a fine art perspective, the artist's original intent in terms of delicate print hues throughout the tonal scale is compromised early on by this ink/media combination. This unintended consequence would be unwelcome to many collectors and museum curators while others might rationalize it's an acceptable "patina" of the aging process. Doesn't change the reality that the artist had more durable media choices available for no more money.
OBAs aren't the only components that can exhibit a bifurcated fading curve. Other examples are manifested with blended monochrome ink sets such as the Piezography Selenium/Neutral shades, or other dye-pigment hybrid ink sets (Claria yellow exhibits a bit of this hybrid ink behavior). In these situations the high stability pigments remain fade resistant longer while the blended pigment or dye components (magenta, for example) drops out early thus causing a shift in color balance.
Also, not included in the Aardenburg fading studies (or any others to my knowledge), regrettably, are the additional light induced discoloration that can show up only after the light fade testing has ceased and the samples are then retired to dark storage. OBA's don't always remain colorless after being removed from the light sources that render them colorless notwithstanding conventional wisdom that the paper is merely reverting to it's "natural color" when the OBAs give out.
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Does anyone know why pigment whiteners are not used in any of the best gloss fiber media? Really it seems like this is the only thing holding them back from being as stable as the Canson matte papers that do have pigment brighteners that are doing so well? Isn't this the next area for innovation in inkjet media, not to mention the Ilford gelatin silver papers they are selling now?
john
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Mark-
I want to confirm the test that I am viewing is your ID 146 and is the test that you refer to:
Printer: Epson Stylus Pro 7000
Ink: Cone Piezography Carbon Sepia K6
Paper: PremierArt™ Alise Bright White
Sample # AaI_20100202_SN003
Is this correct?
I am familiar with Cone inks but have not used them and do not know much about them. I also have not used PremierArt papers.
Is this the correct test? I am a member of your site, I am trying to understand all of the replies and will read the test once I see if I have the right one.
Thank you, Debra
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That's correct. That was the test that I sent in years ago. There was talk about how great looking this relatively inexpensive new rag paper was so I printed and sent in a sample for Mark.
This is a perfect example of how a particular inkset that is super stable can be undermined by a poor paper coating. If you look at that same inkset tested on Hahnemuhle Photorag the difference is day and night. We didn't have to wait long to see that Premier bright white paper fall apart fast. The Premier natural without dye brighteners didn't flake out like that one.
john
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Mark-
I want to confirm the test that I am viewing is your ID 146 and is the test that you refer to:
Printer: Epson Stylus Pro 7000
Ink: Cone Piezography Carbon Sepia K6
Paper: PremierArt™ Alise Bright White
Sample # AaI_20100202_SN003
Is this correct?
I am familiar with Cone inks but have not used them and do not know much about them. I also have not used PremierArt papers.
Is this the correct test? I am a member of your site, I am trying to understand all of the replies and will read the test once I see if I have the right one.
Thank you, Debra
Hi Debra,
Yes, that's the sample I spoke about. John (i.e Deanwork) filled in some more details about this sample. It's one of many instructive samples in the database showing how both inks and media are very important in determining final product longevity. Printers and drivers (e.g., the way the ink channels are blended) can also play a role, but ink and media usually dominate. Anyway, I'm in the process of converting all the AaI&A reports to a newer report style that adds graphs like whitepoint stability, I* tone and color versus exposure, and Delta E versus exposure. The newer report style would illustrate this sample's issues much better. Unfortunately, the conversion process is time consuming, so I'm working my way from newer tests back to the older ones. The batch that ID# 146 is in has yet to be done, but the Conservation Display rating this sample received pretty much says it all. If you want a closer look at why, just pay attention to the measurements for patch A1, the media whitepoint patch, as the testing progressed.
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Thank you Dean and John for your replies; you confirmed that I have the right test. I will print this and study it tonight, my homework. :)
Trying hard to become better educated on papers, inks, etc. I am aware about some items and others need more reading on to understand better.
Thanks again, Debra
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Does anyone know why pigment whiteners are not used in any of the best gloss fiber media? Really it seems like this is the only thing holding them back from being as stable as the Canson matte papers that do have pigment brighteners that are doing so well? Isn't this the next area for innovation in inkjet media, not to mention the Ilford gelatin silver papers they are selling now?
john
Maybe I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you referring to barium sulfate or titanium dioxide? Certainly the former has been used by a number of manufacturers (both ink jet and silver gelatin papers) to improve paper brightness.
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The only two manufactures that I am aware of that only use pigments as whiteners in certain inkjet media are - Canson ( Rag Photographique, Edition Etching ) and Breathing Color Optima, and they are all matt papers.
IF Hahnemuhle, Canson, and others are using some pigments in their brighteners for any of their gloss fiber media it would be nice to know that. I do know that Hahnemuhle Photorag hold up quite well in all the fade tests. I have always seen their paper descriptions as containing OBAs.
Maybe Mark knows more about this. I do know that there are obvious differences in the super bluish brighteners in some of the cheaper papers compared to the better ones. I don't know if that is because of the amount of brighteners or their chemical composition. Also including the brighteners in the manufacture of the paper itself can give you a quite different result than putting them in the coatings when the receptor coating is added, which is bad.
Using inferior oba brighteners in art papers is certainly not limited to inkjet media either. Look at the poor results of the Ilford Gallerie silver print papers that are turning gray in no time.
John
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The only two manufactures that I am aware of that only use pigments as whiteners in certain inkjet media are - Canson ( Rag Photographique, Edition Etching ) and Breathing Color Optima, and they are all matt papers.
You didn't answer my first question above and I think you are mixing up whiteners and Optical Brightening Agents. The former are pigments such as barium sulfate (baryta, used by a number of inkjet paper manufacturers) and Optical Brightening Agents which are fluorescent dyes. The pigments also have a long history of use by the paint and coatings industry and are chemically pretty darn stable. The dyes are of more recent use are not stable.
Maybe Mark knows more about this. I do know that there are obvious differences in the super bluish brighteners in some of the cheaper papers compared to the better ones. I don't know if that is because of the amount of brighteners or their chemical composition. Also including the brighteners in the manufacture of the paper itself can give you a quite different result than putting them in the coatings when the receptor coating is added, which is bad.
I'm not Mark but the type of OBA, the amount and the location are pretty much trade secrets. You can do the type of studies that Ernst Dinkla has on his website and see pretty much which papers have OBAs in them. From my perspective using both Ernst's and Mark's Aardenburg data sets allows one to make an intelligent selection in terms of what paper to print on. One also need not automatically reject a paper because it has OBAs in it as the NLA Ilford Gold Fiber Silk does very well under testing. I was back at my former employer's office a week ago and took a look at some of my images printed on IGFS that have been hanging there for five years now. Lighting is not flattering as it's traditional office lighting but it was very difficult to see any fading of the colors or change in the paper white.
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You are not telling me anything that I don't know. Also many papers are bleached prior to coating with anything.
My point was Canson is using pigment brighteners in Place of OBAS in their matt rag papers. By all fade tests they are outperforming all the other matte media that do use modest amounts of oba like Hahnemuhle, Ilford, etc, which themselves are not bad and Canson is just as bright as those papers. And yes it is all proprietary and if they say they don't use any dye brighteners in Rag Photographique etc, I believe them unless I have some reason not to.
My question was why isn't Canson or someone else using these same pigment brighteners in gloss fiber inkjet media?
I've been very aware that there all kinds of oba formulations out there. We've been talking about this since the burnout days 15 years ago with Epson "Archival" Matte and now with their "Exhibiton" Fine Art stuff. Same old same old.
As far as Ilford Gallerie goes, it is odd that their inkjet Gold media is holding up better in the paper base than their Gallerie silver paper which is dreadful - two completely different companies I assume. The problem I always have had with the Gallerie Gold is that is scratches so easily that it is useless to me, that, and the gloss differential and bronzing as well are about the worst I've seen on the HP and Canon machines. Apparently it works better with Epson inks. Maybe they have improved it in recent years but I doubt it. I used to buy boxes of 13x19 sheets as well big rolls and even the sheets were scratched before I took them out of the box. I wasted a lot of that material trying to find decent sheets and then spray them before they did get scratched.
j
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You are not telling me anything that I don't know. Also many papers are bleached prior to coating with anything.
My point was Canson is using pigment brighteners in Place of OBAS in their matt rag papers. By all fade tests they are outperforming all the other matte media that do use modest amounts of oba like Hahnemuhle, Ilford, etc, which themselves are not bad and Canson is just as bright as those papers. And yes it is all proprietary and if they say they don't use any dye brighteners in Rag Photographique etc, I believe them unless I have some reason not to.
My question was why isn't Canson or someone else using these same pigment brighteners in gloss fiber inkjet media?
They are - every baryta paper uses pigment brighteners (in the form of a baryta layer), while some non-baryta papers (e.g. Canson Platine Rag) also use pigment brighteners, as a layer behind the inkjet receptive layer.
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Maybe some of the various fiber gloss papers have titanium white or something in the baryta ( clay ) layer. If they do it's not much. IF so this is the first I've heard of it and Canson never mentions it in their literature. However, regardless if they do or don't, they are still using dye obas as the primary brightening agent of the paper. If you don't believe me look at them under a black light, they will glow. Canson matte rag papers and Breathing Color Lyve canvas both do not glow because there are no dye brighteners in them, yet they are plenty bright for most purposes.
j
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Cotton linters does not mean "some" cotton. They are an industrial byproduct of the cotton manufacturing process, made of the short fibers that are unsuitable for making your wife beater or tighty whitey underwear. Fine art paper does not need long fibers like those required for garment manufacture. I think that it is actually a good selling point, in that the paper is using a material that would otherwise be considered waste, much like the bamboo and (formerly) sugar cane pulp that Hahnemuhle uses or used. As long as the end product, the paper, is not compromised by their use (which I understand it is not), it's a green and a good thing.
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My question was why isn't Canson or someone else using these same pigment brighteners in gloss fiber inkjet media?
That depends on what you mean by 'gloss fiber'. Canson Platine, for example, uses white carbon black as a whitening agent, and the spectral reflectance plots of several papers show the possible use of titanium dioxide.
In general, I would imagine is less expensive and easier to use fluorescing dyes than minerals, which in the add mix could have effects on the structural integrity of the paper or surface coating.
Brian A
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In general, I would imagine is less expensive and easier to use fluorescing dyes than minerals, which in the add mix could have effects on the structural integrity of the paper or surface coating.
....and we have a winner of the quiz! Dyes are much cheaper to use to get maximum brightness. It's why they are commonly used in the manufacture of inexpensive Xerox and other office print paper (usually marketed as bright white). It's easier to formulate compared to inorganic brightening agents.
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Yes of course it's cheaper and easier to formulate. And that is why they have used them in practically all silver papers since the 50s. However, Canson has done very well marketing and selling their expensive matte papers, and I for one has spent a fortune on them.
It is very true that there are all kinds of the silver print clone attempts out there with various properties and some work better with certain inks than others.
I've tried them all and have settled on the Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl and sometimes the oba free Hahnemuhle Photorag Pearl. I would prefer to use the photorag pearl for most things but my clients just find it too warm. These surfaces work ideally with the inks I use.
....and we have a winner of the quiz! Dyes are much cheaper to use to get maximum brightness. It's why they are commonly used in the manufacture of inexpensive Xerox and other office print paper (usually marketed as bright white). It's easier to formulate compared to inorganic brightening agents.
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Alan,
I also have decided on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl as my go-to "glossy" paper. I made this decision based on no obas used and is 100% cotton paper, and I love the texture. I have done testing and developed custom icc profiles for it and am truly happy with my results.
I have decided to go with Innova IFA22 Soft Texture Art 315 gsm (100% cotton paper) as my go to matte paper for texture and will use Crane Museo Max 250gsm for my lower weight matte paper, still has texture but less thickness. Have NOT been able to determine whether the Museo Max has wood pulp or lignin in it, the literature from Crane is somewhat vague and evasive on this. Not sure it is 100% cotton.
Thanks, Debra
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Have NOT been able to determine whether the Museo Max has wood pulp or lignin in it, the literature from Crane is somewhat vague and evasive on this. Not sure it is 100% cotton.
Thanks, Debra
Crane no longer manufacture the paper stock for Museo. Museo Max is all cotton as are all their papers. Problem with Museo Portfolio Rag which is the heavier weight of Museo Max is that it performs poorly in the Aardenburg light fastness studies. It's too bad as it is really a nice matte paper. I've pretty much switched over to Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth which has I did a number of different prints for the Aardenburg study on the Epson ABW print driver.
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Thanks Alan, I will do some further reading on the Museo tests in Mark's database. Thanks for the update on Museo's papers being all 100% cotton, was not sure of that. I have not used the portfolio rag papers by them and think I'll avoid them due to your experience. I enjoy that paper test site of Mark with the great database of tests. I just need to gain a better understanding of those L values (Andrew updated me that it increases in value due to lightness of paper increasing over time), and the a and b values representations(which decrease).
Thanks again, Debra
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In older threads I have seen the "White Carbon Black" described as a fine white sand which makes me wonder why it should have the Carbon association. More likely an alumina, silicon or titanium relation then. I see Silicon Dioxide powder mentioned as WCB in ads. Kaolin is a cheaper and a more complex mineral based on alumina + silicon. There are more. The main true carbon component in an inkjet paper is the cellulose paper base which can be very white depending on its purity.
Whatever paper components are used there are more OBA free papers with a high white reflectivity and less than Lab b 2 warmth. For example in the Cotton Smooth Fine art category: Bergger, Canson, Moab, Museo, Premier. Small differences there too, the Moab more likely using a TiO2 whitening agent that absorbs UV more. Could be as subtle as the TiO2 anatase versus rutile crystal form or the SiO2 addition in other papers next to TiO2, the SiO2 UV absorption is shifted more to shorter wavelengths, higher frequencies.
Without scientific spectrometers it will be very difficult to check exactly which whitening agents or blends of them are used in inkjet papers. The crystal forms can be different too. If a paper has to have a neutral or cold white reflection it can not really be done without an OBA. Adding blue colorants or changing the spectral distribution otherwise to achieve a similar effect decreases the total white reflection. In some cases you can see in SpectrumViz that OBA free papers with the same spectral reflectivity at the blue/shorter wavelength side differ on the warmer side of the spectral distribution which gives them a near neutral white but also a slight drop in total reflection.
On satin, gloss, fiber/baryta cotton papers with high white reflection, OBA free: if you check the Jon Cone Type 5 spectral plot the total white reflection exceeds that of the matte Canson Rag Photographique, Lab 98.1 -0.1 2.6 versus Lab 97.6 0.1 1.8 and the last suits my spectrometer better than the glossier Type 5 so the difference should be higher in practice. Indicates to me mineral whitening agents added. The Canson slightly more neutral as its warm side reflection is lower. That applies even more to the Canson Platine compared to the Type 5.
RC papers without OBA are rare, they all have a polyethylene barrier with TiO2 whitening agent. The proofing papers usually have less OBA and the Epson Proofing White Semi-Matte is among the best then with still a high white reflection. Warm white though but with a big gamut. No wonder the Epson ads praise the gamut of the x900 printer models based on prints with that paper. Ideal for an image with strawberries in a basket. Which has been a favorite image at the introduction of any new color imaging technology if I have to believe the history books. Off topic now.
--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
April 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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Thank you Mr. Dinkla, for more information on the OBAs and types of them. I have studied your site with the spectral plots and will continue to study your site and Mark's site and others that help me to understand more technical aspects of print papers and specs,
Debra