Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: Peter McLennan on September 16, 2005, 08:26:36 pm
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Margulis' earlier works changed my use of Photoshop for the better.
Anybody working with this new book? It focuses on LAB mode, (the "Most Powerful Colorspace) he says.
Peter
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Dan's book is at:
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0321356780/ref=ase_sterlingledet/104-8321124-2127140>
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Margulis' earlier works changed my use of Photoshop for the better.
Anybody working with this new book? It focuses on LAB mode, (the "Most Powerful Colorspace) he says.
Peter
There are several threads about his book and some examples at a website called Digital Grin:
Ken (http://www.dgrin.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10)
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I've had the new book for a couple of weeks now, and consider it to be the most revolutionary book on digital imaging ever written. It's going to be a book that will take several readings at the very least. Even in the first few chapters, there have been many eye opening revelations, and while I have used Lab for years, this book shows you not only what and how to accomplish corrections and improvement you never thought possible, it also attempts to help you sort out just when and when not to use these techniques. I knew that I would be buying it as soon as it became available, but I had no idea just how "out of the box" it really was. For anyone interested in taking their imaging process to the next level, there is no better book - anywhere.
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It's an excellent book. I've been a big fan of his previous books and the LAB book has opened up my eyes to some new and very useful techniques using LAB mode. The preface is totally over the top and I don't agree with his 8/16bit arguements but the techniques for improving colour separation, saturation and image repair are very very useful.
This wouldn't be your first PS book by any means but if you're proficient in PS already then this genuinely adds new approaches and ideas plus some easy to follow examples. It's been fun revisiting some of my less visually exciting images (lacking that Velvia presentation) and being able to significantly add more punch yet with subtlety to them.
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Thanks for the notes and references, guys. I've placed my order.
Peter
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Peter - this book is excellent. There is alot of stuff here you simply won't find anywhere else. This is much more than a "how to improve your pictures with LAB" book - it really delves into what Photoshop does in a way that gets your mind in sync with how the program "thinks" and works. A real eye and mind opener.
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It would be interesting to hear what Jonathan and the Digital Dog has to say concerning the book. A few weeks ago the Digital Dog wondered about what Dan could fill the book- or words to that effect-with concerning Lab I fully endorse the praise stated in this thread concerning the publication
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I haven't read Dan's book, so I'll reserve judgment until I have.
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I'm reluctant about this one. Anyone who is adamant against 48-bit editing when the benefits re so plainly obvious... well lets just say it makes me skeptical.
I keep a open mind but would like to browse through the book before buying. Unfortunately no bookstore in my town carries it.
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I'm reluctant about this one. Anyone who is adamant against 48-bit editing when the benefits re so plainly obvious... well lets just say it makes me skeptical.
I keep a open mind but would like to browse through the book before buying. Unfortunately no bookstore in my town carries it.
I share your scepticism Daniel, but I ordered it anyway.
There are 2 sample chapters availbale from:
http://www.ledet.com/margulis/articles.html (http://www.ledet.com/margulis/articles.html)
By the way, this is Uwe Steinmueller's (www.outbackphoto.com) comment on the book:
"We hardly like any of the sample images (talking about their aesthetics) in this book which makes normally reading for us difficult (we think quite in visuals). But then this book caught us by surprise. We found it very inspiring to read about the interesting and different options to edit images in LAB mode. When Margulis finally pointed out that we can use the Photoshop plugin Curvemeister (now in Version 2.0) to use many of his LAB techniques without leaving RGB we were hooked and had to read more. Overall we recommend this book as LAB allows a different way to improve problem areas in your images. Tuning colors (especially saturation) is very powerful using LAB."
Herman
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I'm reluctant about this one. Anyone who is adamant against 48-bit editing when the benefits re so plainly obvious... well lets just say it makes me skeptical.
I keep a open mind but would like to browse through the book before buying. Unfortunately no bookstore in my town carries it.
Margulis is opiniated to the extreme not only on 48-bit editing, but also on the current color management concept in general. His books and writing styles are not for everyone, in particular not the PS beginners. If you can get over these, you will find many gems not found in any other PS books. I have read his previous book many times over, and can still only digest a few chapters and put them to good use.
Margulis' background seems to be in pre-press printing, and NOT desktop inkjet printing. In his previous book, he failed to separate these two topics explicitly, making it very difficult for the uninitiated to decide whether his writing applies to one, or both of these topics. He also failed to discuss desktop printing in any amount of details, such as on printer media profiles, etc..
As you can see, I have a love/hate thing with his books. BTW, Margulis is the first inductee into the PS Hall of Fame.
http://www.photoshophalloffame.com/winners/dmargulis.html (http://www.photoshophalloffame.com/winners/dmargulis.html)
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I think it is important to recognize the distinction between "colour management" and "adjusting colour images". Dan writes mainly about the latter and little about the former. His pre-press background makes him exceptionally aware of how colour works and how you use photoshop to work it. I also find he distinguishes quite carefully between what colour adjustment issues are more particular to pre-press as opposed to inkjet printing. If you think you may want this book, I would suggest not to dither too long about ordering it, because if you go to Amazon.com you will already see yourself on a two week wait list. When I bought mine it was just out in the first printing. I believe that printing must have sold out within a couple of weeks. The book is very deep. I think it is a very important book for those who want added depth and insight into the relative strengths and weaknesses of various approaches for adjusting images in Photoshop - LAB or otherwise.
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Daniel, the fact is that in most typical situations the benefits of editing in 48 bit simply are not obvious - many professionals acknowledge this. (Nonetheless I still edit in 16 bit - no harm done, as Dan himself says.) Of course up to you to be skeptical, but you're being skeptical about 360 pages of material because of one side-issue (8 versus 16 bit) discussed on page 133 - where, by the way, he has a qualifier in a highlighted text box explaining those situations in which 16 bit is preferable!
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Like I said, I have not read the book or any of his other works yet. I have only have what I've heard via commentary.
If the book has good info, it has good info. I don't like buying things unseen and that is the primary thing keeping my from this book. I'll be looking at those sample chapters when I have time to do so and perhaps that will sway me.
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A detailed synopsis, with full examples, of the first three chapters of the book starts here (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=18308). I have found it exceptionally helpful.
Dan
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Out of interest,
does the book mention the "blue turns purple" problem with Lab?
Said exciting new technique to steepen the contrast on both a & b channels should be right the same as to use the Hue&Sat.-saturation slider in Lab mode .
Peter
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Dan, I visited that site you pointed to and was disappointed. I'm reading the book very carefully and found that discussion thread lacking in both substance and understanding.
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"Photoshop LAB Color: The Canyon Conundrum and Other Adventures in the Most Powerful Colorspace" by Dan Margulis is definitely worth reading and is most entertaining. I don't agree that it is "the most revolutionary book on digital imaging ever written" and it is certainly not a comprehensive look at Photoshop CS2. If you want comprehensive, get the gold standard: "Real World Photoshop CS2.
But there are some interesting gems buried in here that might improve your digital output. To me the biggest discovery was the idea of using curves in LAB color space to increase color variability. We are not just talking saturation here, but rather color separation. His explanation for why we want this is that cameras lack the sense of simultaneous contrast common to most human beings. When we see a lot of similar colors in close proximity, we break them apart. He shows how we can do that in Photoshop. It makes a big difference on some images.
His writing style is quirky, intelligent and often funny. That helps for such complex ideas. I think this book should only by used by advanced readers.
He relishes taking positions that are against the mainstream. For example, he argues that for photographic images high-bit editing is worthless. Likewise, he does not illustrate the use of Adjustment Layers or Layer Masks which are part of the standard workflow for most advanced users.
What is so wonderful about all his ideas, which go against the current accepted wisdom, is that he makes you question what you are doing. He presents his arguments using concise logic. It made me frequently pause and question my workflow.
Bottom line: This book should be at the top of the reading stack for Advanced Photoshop users. Learning how to increase color variability alone makes it worthwhile.
Henry Domke
Henry Domke Fine Art (http://www.henrydomke.com)
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PeterLange, I'm a good way into the book and I haven't come accross any mention yet of blue turning purple - but perhaps it may surface later on in the context of something more important - I'll see by the time I'm finished.
There is discussion and demonstration within the first half of the book comparing movements of Lab curves in Lab mode versus using HSB sliders in RGB mode. I've not seen yet a comparison of using Lab curves versus HSB sliders in Lab mode. That may be there also in parts I haven't read yet. But on this point, for a good many purposes you'll find professionals relying more generally on curves as an adjustment tool rather than HSB sliders because of the refined control one can exercise over luminosity, contrast and hue with curves. However, put the HSB commands in the hands of someone like Ben Willmore (see his DVD "Mastering Color" , published by KW Computer Training and available through NAPP), and one sees the remarkable utility of the HSB box FOR COLOUR ADJUSTMENTS in RGB mode. What one uses all depends on the image and the purpose of course.
You sound like a very bright fellow, but there really is no substitute to reading the book before raising issues about whether or not it addresses, confirms or debunks your own particular insights.
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PeterLange, I'm a good way into the book and I haven't come accross any mention yet of blue turning purple - but perhaps it may surface later on in the context of something more important - I'll see by the time I'm finished.
.... You sound like a very bright fellow, but there really is no substitute to reading the book before raising issues about whether or not it addresses, confirms or debunks your own particular insights.
Mark,
1+1= 2, 2+2=4, and changing color saturation on Lab basis is prone to change the perceived hue (see Real World Color Management p.71, or Bruce Lindbloom’s concept for a Uniform Perceptual Lab). Just try said chapter 1 technique to boost both a & b channels simultaneously, and compare HSB hue before / after (in particular relevant for blue to magenta hues).
If the principles of Lab edits are once understood on a 3D basis, it’s hard to call Lab the most powerful color space (anymore). Otherwise, we would have to ask why all other known color gurus did not recognize this, yet.
If Dan’s book only provides a cheerleading perspective on Lab, I’d downgrade it to about point 42 on my reading list. If it also provides a critical review on Lab including strength & weakness analysis, I’d place it among the top ten. Awareness of a problem is the first step to overcome it … imo.
Aren’t we all here to gain (& share) some knowledge and to save some time on this way.
Cheers! Peter
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Peter - yes I've seen page 71 of Real World Color Management and it simply confirms the obvious fact that nothing in this world is perfect - including LAB - but as they also say in the "Real World" in this case it hardly matters. That's why I discounted the importance of the blue/purple issue in my previous post.
And I agree with you - we engage in these discussions to be helpful to eachother - that is why I recommended that you read the book. One of its serious qualities is that it very carefully distinguishes the kinds of situations where Lab is preferable for doing certain things and those where RGB or CMYK would be preferable (much of which sails clear over the heads of many people - on other websites of course, it wouldn't happen here, heavens forbid - who have been blabbering alot of stuff they haven't properly digested). So by your criterion, I think the book goes from 42 to 8 (or somewhere else between 1 and 10 - I don't know what else is vying for high priority on your list - I've lost track of mine there is so much - a very bad thing indeed ). :D Cheers.
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Just spent this am playing the the basic technique in Chapter 1. Even with just this one chapter (actually only the first half) I consider the $ well spent. I re-processed some of my shots from Dead Horse Point and Canyonlands (ideal candidates) and while the end results were not necessarily any better than my previous processing efforts, they were significanly faster and less painful. I also processed a city skyline night shot and the subtle pop of color was something I would not have likely achieved in my normal workflow. Margulis makes it clear that not all shots benefit from a LAB treatment, but a number do.
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One thing I found after using LAB for image optimization was that I'm missing a feature in PS to allow me to keep layers reflecting the application of curves in LAB mode and my other manipulations using RGB.
I like to keep my PSD files with all adjustments as adjustment layers so that I can always go back and tweek images as I become aware of new/better techniques, my PS skills get better or just to revisit and try something new. With RGB/LAB mode conversions I have to flatten the image when I change modes so to keep a full history I have to save a LAB mode file & adjustments and then copy the RGB result back into a new layer in my RGB master.
Not a big deal but something that might be a nice feature for Photoshop 11/12 etc.
I've found that some of the LAB techniques combined with blending modes & masks have eliminated in one step some RGB adjustments that took multiple adjustment layers to achieve a similar result.
Ultimately Dan's book (and his previous adjustment by numbers book) provide additional tools to add to your Photoshop arsenal. Use them when you need them, or don't.