Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: dreed on May 30, 2014, 01:14:03 pm
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Sony confirm silent-mode in A7s (http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2014/05/30/sony-confirm-silent-mode-in-a7s/)
Firmware upgrade to boost DR? Does that make sense?
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Sony confirm silent-mode in A7s (http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2014/05/30/sony-confirm-silent-mode-in-a7s/)
Firmware upgrade to boost DR? Does that make sense?
for example firmware controls what is the max value you will record in raw data... to avoid some ill effects near sensel saturation (at its H/W full well capacity, which may vary between individual sensels) you can clip at different values... you can clip loower or higher... and so lower or increase nominal DR somewhat... that's just one and simple example
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I'm really astonished. The Canon 5D mark III has only about 11 stops of dynamic range.
How are these differences possible?
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I'm really astonished. The Canon 5D mark III has only about 11 stops of dynamic range.
How are these differences possible?
Read the article.
Physically a 14 bit camera can only record 14 stops of linear data. It is an applied gamma curve or it is doing multishot.
With a completely electronic pixel shutter (Im not saying the camera is doing this, just a possibility)you can store a portion of the data, drain the pixel charge, record more. If the camera metering system says 1/100 second it could record it in 2 1/200th chunks. or 5 smaller chunks. The potential is there for the end of blown highlights. The camera just records then adds the data. If a pixel blows out on the sum it can be recorded as a fraction then the software modifies the image.
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True. If you manage to create a sensor in which sensels stop collecting photons at the beginning of the clipping the highlights , it would be a matter of just a short bracketing in order to get the perfect shadows. Better yet, if the sensor can also de-clip de shadows by increasing the collection of a few more photons in those pixels, then you got your perfect capture every time, every day, always. Flavor at will in post! -The Lytro of exposure, not of focus.
We are not there yet. But we will.
Eduardo
Read the article.
Physically a 14 bit camera can only record 14 stops of linear data. It is an applied gamma curve or it is doing multishot.
With a completely electronic pixel shutter (Im not saying the camera is doing this, just a possibility)you can store a portion of the data, drain the pixel charge, record more. If the camera metering system says 1/100 second it could record it in 2 1/200th chunks. or 5 smaller chunks. The potential is there for the end of blown highlights. The camera just records then adds the data. If a pixel blows out on the sum it can be recorded as a fraction then the software modifies the image.
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I'm really astonished. The Canon 5D mark III has only about 11 stops of dynamic range.
How are these differences possible?
The main practical reason is that Sony decided to invest in better still sensor technology.
Why did Canon not do it (yet)? There are probably several reasons, but one of them must be the continued claims by many vocal Canon users that the 5DIII already has enough DR for practical applications? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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my feeling is Canon are transitioning to some entirely new tech.
there has been talk of some sort of cooperation with Fuji.
Edmund
The main practical reason is that Sony decided to invest in better still sensor technology.
Why did Canon not do it? There are probably several reasons, but one of them must be the continued claims by many vocal Canon users that the 5DIII already has enough DR for practical applications? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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my feeling is Canon are transitioning to some entirely new tech.
there has been talk of some sort of cooperation with Fuji.
That would be a great news.
My lenses would be usable with an adapter, I'd be the first to buy if they push the enveloppe in a significant way.
Cheers,
Bernard
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This is how I feel things are for Canon. They were getting ready to start developing something truly evolutionary, even perhaps revolutionary when Sony surprised the world with the Exmor technolgy. They were late at this because they were too busy converting the company's imaging branch to still/video/cine manufacturing. Mistake? Only time will tell.
They will finally release it buy not after losing some customers and getting their corp image hurt.
I expect this to happen no later than this year. That's one reason I'm waiting before I get something like the A7 series. Besides, I rather wait for the second generation A7's.
I understand my expectations for Canon are possibly wishful thinking, as I rather stay Canon than changing to Sony. I already own 2 Sonys. A Nex 6 and a A6000. So Canon, you better get your act together! Now?
Eduardo
my feeling is Canon are transitioning to some entirely new tech.
there has been talk of some sort of cooperation with Fuji.
Edmund
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I understand my expectations for Canon are possibly wishful thinking, as I rather stay Canon than changing to Sony. I already own 2 Sonys. A Nex 6 and a A6000. So Canon, you better get your act together! Now?
Eduardo
I can understand that, feel the same way. Numbers are not everything, I still think my Canon files are very decent. For work, I still prefer Canon for speed and battery life. But anytime I can, I use the A7R.
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I can understand that, feel the same way. Numbers are not everything, I still think my Canon files are very decent.
above deep shadows indeed and numbers (from the same DxOMark) will show that - there it is all about die size... but in deep shadows - no and again the numbers will show that...
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above deep shadows indeed and numbers (from the same DxOMark) will show that - there it is all about die size... but in deep shadows - no and again the numbers will show that...
When you need to get 10-15 scenes done within a certain amount of time, speed and accuracy is key. Shadow details are the least of my worries for a correctly lid scene, working with models and a client on location. When time and speed is not an issue, I pick the A7R every time.
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This is how I feel things are for Canon. They were getting ready to start developing something truly evolutionary, even perhaps revolutionary when Sony surprised the world with the Exmor technolgy. They were late at this because they were too busy converting the company's imaging branch to still/video/cine manufacturing. Mistake? Only time will tell.
...
There is little doubt that Canon lags behind the competition on one specific parameter - both visibly and measurably, namely shadow noise at low ISO settings.
This does not necessarily make Canon a bad choice, nor does it make Canon incompetent. They are making decent amount of profits, while their competitors are in worse shape. So perhaps using their own sensor manufacture line allows them to reduce cost, while limiting them from using some cutting-edge technologies. Or perhaps their video implementation means some compromises on image quality. Or perhaps they simply have found that very few photographers really need or can appreciate 14 Ev of DR, and even those that do can (often) get by using exposure bracketing.
I'd dare to guess that a wide selection of good quality/value/versatility lenses and flashes is more important to most users. To many, ergonomy/AF/AE/gui plays an important role in getting the right pictures.
There is an economy side to this as well as an enthusiast side. As an enthusiast, I want "my" brand to be as good as or better than the competition on every parameter that counts (to me). Taking a step back, I realize that their only obligation is to make stuff that generates profit.
-h
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For still photographers, at the moment, the only thing Canon bodies do better than Nikon is take Canon lenses. For everything else, either the D800e or D4s will do it better.
With the advent of the A7r, you can now put Canon lenses in front of an Exmor sensor if you don't care about AF.
Many of my studio and wedding photographer friends dumped Canon for Nikon when it became clear there would be no answer to the D800. I ditched Canon for the A7r, since I shoot landscapes and like the Canon tilt-shifts (otherwise I'd have gone for the D800e too).
Unless you're a sports photographer shooting long telephotos at super-high ISO all the time, there's just very little reason for a still photographer buying a new system from scratch to go for Canon at the moment.
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The main practical reason is that Sony decided to invest in better still sensor technology.
Why did Canon not do it (yet)? There are probably several reasons, but one of them must be the continued claims by many vocal Canon users that the 5DIII already has enough DR for practical applications? ;)
If "practical applications" means "profitability", that might be the case: Canon may have judged that even though improvements in DR beyond about 12 stops and in pixel count beyond 22MP would deliver some benefits to some customers, they would not (at least for now) generate sufficient extra revenue to cover the costs of hurrying to implement a substantially new sensor technology, such as the on-sensor column parallel ADC that every other ILC maker is now using.
But I am more optimistic: my money is on the idea that Canon is taking its time to develop a next-generation sensor technology, which it can afford to do since it is still the most profitable ILC maker, with a lot of its "high-roller" customers locked in by things like the lens system, high speed AF and the good video capabilities of its DLSRs. For example, maybe integration of the best possible on-sensor AF system for both stills and video is part of Canon's long game.
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I definetely concur with you. However, I think Canon has to show this new technology rather sooner than later, say Fotokina this year. Photogs are slowly transitioning. I already own two 2 apsc Sonys and thing is that nobody has unlimited resources and the money spent on other brands is money not spent on Canon.
Eduardo
But I am more optimistic: my money is on the idea that Canon is taking its time to develop a next-generation sensor technology, which it can afford to do since it is still the most profitable ILC maker, with a lot of its "high-roller" customers locked in by things like the lens system, high speed AF and the good video capabilities of its DLSRs. For example, maybe integration of the best possible on-sensor AF system for both stills and video is part of Canon's long game.
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Hi,
I had an interesting discussion with an experienced guy who shoots both Canon 5DIII and Nikon D800 (or D800E). He says that Nikon has the best sensor but Canon has the best camera. According to what he said the Nikon has a much better sensor, but the Canon sensor is good enough if optimally used.
To match Sony sensors, as used by Nikon, Canon needs to build a new fabrication facility, a multi billion Dollar investment. It has been said that developing a new sensor takes 3-5 years. So developing a new sensor is more related to long term strategy than short term customer requirements.
Best regards
Erik
I definetely concur with you. However, I think Canon has to show this new technology rather sooner than later, say Fotokina this year. Photogs are slowly transitioning. I already own two 2 apsc Sonys and thing is that nobody has unlimited resources and the money spent on other brands is money not spent on Canon.
Eduardo
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Sony confirm silent-mode in A7s (http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2014/05/30/sony-confirm-silent-mode-in-a7s/)
Firmware upgrade to boost DR? Does that make sense?
I was getting excited until I saw how big it is. The other Sony downfall is no shutter dial. IO shoot mainly Leica and Fuji with some M43 here and there.
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If Canon didn't start developing a new sensor technology shortly after the Nikon D800e was announced, they won't be ready to show anything truly competitive this year.
What does it mean to me? Not sure but most likely I will invest some more on Sony. As soon as they announce a A7r with global shutter, I'll order.
Eduardo
Hi,
I had an interesting discussion with an experienced guy who shoots both Canon 5DIII and Nikon D800 (or D800E). He says that Nikon has the best sensor but Canon has the best camera. According to what he said the Nikon has a much better sensor, but the Canon sensor is good enough if optimally used.
To match Sony sensors, as used by Nikon, Canon needs to build a new fabrication facility, a multi billion Dollar investment. It has been said that developing a new sensor takes 3-5 years. So developing a new sensor is more related to long term strategy than short term customer requirements.
Best regards
Erik
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I admit my dream camera would be Fuji X-T1 layout with a somewhat larger body ( put the Fuji next to a Nikon D800 and go 50% the difference). At the same time I like the idea of Sony to have the A7 family all using the same body style., actually I would go further and include a high end APS-C camera as well.
Rather than fiddle around with D7100, D610, Df and D800 bodies and inconsistencies they would have the same layout and menus. Even if neither the layout or menu is exactly to you liking it is just the one layout and menu to get used to.
Sony may still struggle to get over 10% of the market, but ask yourself how many Nikon D3100,3200 and 3300 cameras need to be sold to make the same profit as a single A7s ? Or probably even the RX10 ?
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To match Sony sensors, as used by Nikon, Canon needs to build a new fabrication facility, a multi billion Dollar investment.
or they can design (not the specific sensor, but multiple ADCs on die technology) and outsource the fabrication... it is not like anybody 'd refuse to fab for Canon... so this is not a valid argument.
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Yes,
That is a good argument, but Canon is said to build an 0.18 micron fab.
Another observation may be that Canon shooters are quite happy with the cameras, lenses and high ISO capabilities. Those needing high DR and high resolution may be a small minority. That may explain why Canon is a bit lenient on sensor development.
Best regards
Erik
or they can design (not the specific sensor, but multiple ADCs on die technology) and outsource the fabrication... it is not like anybody 'd refuse to fab for Canon... so this is not a valid argument.
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Those needing high DR and high resolution may be a small minority. That may explain why Canon is a bit lenient on sensor development.
Some of us have been correctly making that exact point for some years now, Erik.
Simple proof? Just look at which camera company sells the most cameras... If Canon wasn't making (more or less) the right cameras for the vast majority of its customers, it simply wouldn't be the market leader, and either Nikon or Sony would be.
How are they doing, financially?
Oh, yeah...
Clearly, the potential market share to be gained from courting the small-but-vociferous high DR/high res crowd isn't really worth the trouble to Canon. So if it happens (and FWIW, I imagine it will) it will be on Canon's terms, and not because of the noise and heat coming from some numerically insignificant sector of the market.
(But as an aside, can I point out that it wasn't that long ago - in "generational" terms - that the highest resolution DSLR available was the Canon 1Ds Mk III? Everything that came afterwards was in response to Canon).
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Simple proof? Just look at which camera company sells the most cameras... If Canon wasn't making (more or less) the right cameras for the vast majority of its customers, it simply wouldn't be the market leader, and either Nikon or Sony would be.
How are they doing, financially?
Oh, yeah...
I am sure that Kodak did quite well for some time as well. Doing well today is important, but it is not sufficient to guarantee success tomorrow.
Is 14+ stops of DR critical to most users? Probably not. But then, most users don't need 800mm teles, fancy tracking AF or any number of other distinguishing features of different camera/systems/vendors. Digital cameras seems to be entering a "mature" stage where night-and-day improvements are not to be expected.
(But as an aside, can I point out that it wasn't that long ago - in "generational" terms - that the highest resolution DSLR available was the Canon 1Ds Mk III? Everything that came afterwards was in response to Canon).
And I am sure that "brand-loyal" users had strong opinion about the imporance vs unimportance of resolution at that point in time.
-h
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Those needing high DR and high resolution may be a small minority.
so that constant increase in resolution in Canon cameras (till Canon hit the end of their current technological capabilities) was not feeding any minority :-)
somebody mentioned 1Ds MkIII, so why increase from 1Ds MkII - who needs those 21mp ;D ... 17mp was plenty
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so that constant increase in resolution in Canon cameras (till Canon hit the end of their current technological capabilities) was not feeding any minority :-)
somebody mentioned 1Ds MkIII, so why increase from 1Ds MkII - who needs those 21mp ;D ... 17mp was plenty
Maybe no new feature, technology or product is required until Canon make it :D
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More than the rumored DR, I would be really excited about the complete silent mode. Having shot for a couple of months on a movie with Canon bodies and lenses in a sound blimp is a serious test of stamina and just plain tough work. A small system like this with a range of lenses not requiring sound blimps would be a huge improvement. Even coming down to being able to get a couple of bodies and lenses into a small carry-on would be a huge blessing. Count me as seriously interested!
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More than the rumored DR, I would be really excited about the complete silent mode.
simple rolling shutter and most probably with further image degradation (like it is used for video - ADCs on chip in 10bit mode to facilitate the fast readout)
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The claimed and rumoured DR is not what people expect.
There will be results shortly from testing labs.
Michael
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Sony only made the announcement about 15.3 stops of DR expansion a couple of weeks ago, making it quite impossible for DXO to test the a7s with the update, as it is not available. Perhaps a bit of restraint is necessary folks...
http://presscentre.sony.eu//content/detail.aspx?ReleaseID=9810&NewsAreaID=2
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Might be in video mode with S-LOG and not yet on Stills.
Anyway, this is a nice piece of hardware especially with the electronic shutter (holly cow !!!). Might be the future brother of my D700.
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Hi,
I agree. I would expect a bit more DR at base ISO, with regard to the "fat" pixels. I think the camera is more intended for video than stills. Probably great for high ISO, but that is not my cup of tea.
No A7x camera for me. A9? Maybe, if it has a new sensor with electronic first curtain and 54 MP.
Best regards
Erik
Sony only made the announcement about 15.3 stops of DR expansion a couple of weeks ago, making it quite impossible for DXO to test the a7s with the update, as it is not available. Perhaps a bit of restraint is necessary folks...
http://presscentre.sony.eu//content/detail.aspx?ReleaseID=9810&NewsAreaID=2
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I would assume that to get up to 15.3 stops on DR, every ISO setting would get between 1-2 stops improvement with the new firmware. Considering how well it's done with just 12 MP's on an initial test using the existing firmware, I think it bodes well for Sony.
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I would assume that to get up to 15.3 stops on DR, every ISO setting would get between 1-2 stops improvement with the new firmware. Considering how well it's done with just 12 MP's on an initial test using the existing firmware, I think it bodes well for Sony.
Trying to understand this new camera. It seems it currently has 13.1 stops of DR, but is thread implying there will be a firmware upgrade that gives it 15 + stops of DR when shooting raw stills? Right now I heard to get maximum DR in video mode you need to shoot in S-log at iso 3200 which is showing up with noise ( source; prolost.com ), but the DR in video mode is impressive some folks are saying.