Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: BFoto on May 28, 2014, 10:00:14 am
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I have a canon 1d and 5d with lots of L glass. Havent needed 'new' so have only kept a glancing eye on the latest and greatest.
I have a niece wanting to start in the world of photography and has $2k to spend.
I have emphasised the need to spend more on better glass with a lower end body.
If u only had $2k, what would you buy today?
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I'd either buy a Fujifilm X100s ($1300), maybe with one of the conversion lenses, or a Fujifilm XE2 + 18-55mm ($1200) and the 55-200mm ($699)
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This is a tough question and very common. The problem, of course, is that 2 grand is the tip of the iceberg if you include Photoshop, a good tripod, etc...
I think it helps to have an end goal in sight. How serious is the person about the art of photography? And what is she interested in shooting? Is she more into wide angles or telephotos? Some folks have no interest in changing lenses and knowing that now would really save money.
I'm a Canon man, but I never suggest someone get a Canon Rebel. The problem with those cameras is that you get locked into a recreational format with few options to upgrade. And you don't get to experience good glass.
Lately I've been pointing folks to m43. I have a buddy who uses an Panasonic Lumix something with three lenses (two zooms, one fast prime). The system is versatile, affordable, and there are plenty of options to upgrade later.
If portraits were her passion, I would consider starving for a month and then splurging on a Fuji X-T1 with 56mm f/1.2.
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1. Any camera and any lens are good enough for beginners these days. Rebels and kit lenses in particular. And not just for beginners, but for us as well, except we are too vain to admit it. Stop obsessing over "better glass." Neither camera nor lens see a photograph. We do.
2. Ask your niece to show you a dozen of images that she wish she made them. That will give you an idea of what attracted her to photography. Shallow depth-of-field? Close ups? Super wide-angle distortions? Portraits? Broad vistas? Instagram-like filters? That would give you an idea in which direction to go. For instance, if shallow depth of field, get her a 50/1.8 instead of a kit lens. If (f)"art" filters, spend more on software, or cameras that already have them.
3. In contrast to the past, when a camera bought lasted a generation, today cameras are almost single-use disposables, i.e., will be obsolete in a year or even within weeks, if purchase timing is bad. Lenses can be sold on eBay. Thus start cheap and see where her interest will lead her. After a while, depending on her level of interest, she will be able herself to determine that and figure out what her next purchase should be.
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If u only had $2k, what would you buy today?
I'd buy a Canon Rebel. According to Canon the Rebel models are "compatible with Canon EF and EF-S lenses", which is every lens Canon makes. Some time ago a friend of mine who was shooting stock temporarily used a Rebel with numerous L-series lenses, including a 600mm F4. He got some amazing photos, many of which were published. Rebels don't have all the durability and features of the high end cameras, but with a little care and a decent lens they make a very respectable image file. I think it'd be hard to find anything better in the $400 range. The rest of that $2000 could be put into a lens or two, depending on what she wants to do. You may also want to consider the used lens market for a better price.
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Why not buy a $100-200 Point and Shoot? Or even a refurbished dslr camera?
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Something not discussed is ergonomics/user interface. I find cameras to be a very personal choice, so I HIGHLY recommend going to the nearest camera shop or retailer and holding them. Seriously, last time I was choosing, I really disliked the feel of the NEX 7, and really liked the feel of a gripped E-M5. If you like how a camera feels and operates, you are much more likely to use it.
That said, I say Fuji and Oly right now for feel, but that is just personal preference.
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Canon user here. Ergonomics count. She should handle a few cameras, decide whether she likes little, big, SLR, compact with viewfinder, compact without viewfinder. RAW capture should be possible. There's nothing wrong with the Rebels, they can be used as aperture priority, shutter priority, manual, as well as with the "consumer" modes. I liked the T2i I used at work, but handled a 60D and liked the ergonomics of the slightly larger camera better. Other people may like "dainty" better. A lot depends on what style she is most interested in working. If she wants to do "street" photography, a compact or bridge camera with RAW capture is the ticket.
My 60D has been a fine all-around stills camera (I haven't tried video, haven't been too interested in video). It's a little long in the tooth, at 4 years and well over the rated number of shutter actuations, and still going strong. A refurbished 60D or Rebel/SL1 and refurbished Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 or Canon EF-S17-55 f/2.8, a "student price" Lightroom license, a computer if she doesn't have one already, a tripod and head, and extra card, extra battery, polarizing filter, all ought to come in well below the target price, and if she wants a telephoto, a Canon EF 70-200 f/4 non-IS is a steal, off-brand macro extension tubes if she wants to try macro. If she wants to try video, the Canon 70D and one of the STM IS kit zooms would be the ticket.
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I have a canon 1d and 5d with lots of L glass. Havent needed 'new' so have only kept a glancing eye on the latest and greatest.
I have a niece wanting to start in the world of photography and has $2k to spend.
I have emphasised the need to spend more on better glass with a lower end body.
If u only had $2k, what would you buy today?
For some reason I kept on thinking about this question, and I think your niece doesn't need to spend $2K. Most people just getting into photography don't know what they want to do yet, or even whether it's a passing fancy or something they want to pursue. I think it's most important to get a kit that will allow the most versatility and exerimentation. There are Canon Rebel T5 kits with two zooms covering 18mm to 300mm for $550 at B&H. She could do a LOT with that. If her interests go in a certain direction there will be plenty of money left over to pick up some appropriate accessories or specialized lenses later on. It's a lot better than the Minolta SRT 201 and a couple of crappy primes I started out with. Sure, the kit lenses aren't stellar, but she's probably not making 20x30 inch prints right out of the gate, and you can fix vignettng and color fringing in post processing.
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Your niece should not be concerned with "glass" and all that pixel-peeper crap. She should get a manually adjustable camera and learn composition, lighting, timing, exposure, shutter speeds, depth of field, and the other aspects that are the heart of good photography.
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I have a canon 1d and 5d with lots of L glass. Havent needed 'new' so have only kept a glancing eye on the latest and greatest.
I have a niece wanting to start in the world of photography and has $2k to spend.
I have emphasised the need to spend more on better glass with a lower end body.
If u only had $2k, what would you buy today?
I'd buy a Sony A7 and a few Rokkor or Zuiko primes and in fact that's what I have, I ditched my 5D and some nice lenses to go another way.
If the budget allows I'd also but a Panasonic G1 and a manual macro lens and I have that set up too :D actually I also have a GX7 and some AF lenses too but that'd blow the budget.
As for your niece, is video important? If it is that could influence the choice.
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I'd get a used 3 year old Rebel with its kit lens, and a 50/1.8 used too, maybe $300 total and take it from there. Rest of the money could finance a nice holiday for a young person, or some courses.
The Rebel, new or old is a really good camera when used with primes, and sharp with plenty of depth of field with the kit zoom.
Edmund
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She might like to join a photography club at her school or in the community. She could see what other people are doing, make friends, go on group outings, learn the basics. She can start her photography journey for 0$ with her phone, then branch out. An introduction to post-processing class would be a nice gift item. If she wanted to try film, there are a zillion options for B+W photography out there. 4 x 5 pinhole camera and direct positive paper? I am an old fart, and remember how fascinated I was as a kid by the chemical development process (still am). Does anyone in her family have old manual focus manual aperture legacy lenses that could be adapted to a MILC format camera (or for that matter a standard DSLR, I am using some of my film-days lenses on my new full frame DSLR).
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Very much agree with Slobodan Blagojevic.
I cannot even begin to tell you how many published photos I have shot with the Canon 50 1.4. Get one of the new Canon Rebels and even the kit lens and go shoot photos. People spend way too much time and effort on gear for most photography.
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Slobodan, your second suggestion is one of the best I've seen for the OP's request for advice. As for the issue of obsolescence, unless a current camera gets worn out, it will still do the same things a year or two from now: the distraction for all of us is, whatever cameras are like then will probably have surpassed the current technology. The other good points are about budgeting for the "hidden" expenses: batteries, cards, software, etc. Start with the concept of self-expression and pleasure. Good advice.
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Let your niece use some of your gear for a while, then she can decide.
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I am Nikon man. Got the D3300 with the kit lense a couple of months ago. Total cost in India less than $600. This is a perfect camera for beginners. It has all the idiot proof modes, so if you want you use it as a point and shoot. It also has the conventional modes - manual, aperture priority and shutter priority. I normally shoot aperture priority.
With the superb 24MP sensor and a high DR, as long as you do not overly blow the highlights you can always recover shadows to get reasonable exposed images, with time as expertise grows, nailing exposure will be a routine affair. The provide View NX-2 software is fine for normal picture adjustments and if you want more, download the free Capture NX-D beta. I process all my images in it.
Once your niece gets an idea of what a DSLR is and whether it is her cup of tea, she can always acquire more lenses initially and a more sophisticated body later. The thing is that with a $600 outlay she will be all set. The balance can either be banked for future or as others have advised spent better on a Photographic holiday or classes.
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She should get a manually adjustable camera and learn composition, lighting, timing, exposure, shutter speeds, depth of field, and the other aspects that are the heart of good photography.
and a 50/1.8 used too, maybe $300 total and take it from there.
+1
to both the above comments. If MILC perhaps add a $100 for a Metabones adapter to allow the use of legacy lenses without having to spend a fortune on auto this, zoom that.
As an alternative suggestion, the FujiFilm X-E1 has just been discontinued and you should be able to find excellent 'deals' at a minimal cost. In the UK they were offered at both a heavily discounted price and a choice of a free lens ( including the excellent 35/1.4 Fujinon).
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Sony A7 is a killer deal right now. That and the kit zoom with pretty much any legacy 50mm.
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Slobodan, your second suggestion is one of the best I've seen for the OP's request for advice. [ ... ] The other good points are about budgeting for the "hidden" expenses: batteries, cards, software, etc. Start with the concept of self-expression and pleasure. Good advice.
+1. What does the budding photographer like? "Start with self-expression and pleasure." Don't discount the _high_ costs of things other than the camera and lenses: computer, monitor, printer, paper, etc.
Personally, I tell people to _record data_ with a camera, and _make pictures_ with a computer. But I'm favor hang-on-the-wall pictures, which may be a bias the person in question does not share.
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Used Canon 1D Mk II N for $600 and a used 24-70 f/2.8 L.
The camera is a great starter - forces you to learn manual; fantastic AF, enough MP, between FF and APS-C, takes SD and CF, weather proof.
She could turn around and sell it and recoup 80%+ of her $$$ on a better body.
The downsides are weight and high ISO performance. Otherwise, it's a solid kit. And, she could live with that lens for a long time.
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Yeah, I'd really want to know what kind of personality she has, and specifically, what sort of photos entrance her right now. I started out as a St. Ansel disciple, but I know others who were excited by streets, sports, or portraits (and of course a few adolescent boys who just wanted to get chicks naked - see electric guitar web sites for further detail).
I she sticks with it, she could try any or all those paths, but if she already has some inclination in a particular direction, she should get what makes sense for that type of shooting. That will encourage her to persevere.
For example, if I came across a kid who wanted to make huge B&W landscape prints, I'd have them get a Sigma DPX Merrill. If they seemed really interested in sports, it would be a mainstream DSLR. If they had no idea at all, I'd be tempted to recommend M43.
I love reading about the way this question was answered 50 years ago. Pretty often, you'd hand a kid a Speed Graphic and a single film holder, and just say "F8 and be there."
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Used Canon 1D Mk II N for $600 and a used 24-70 f/2.8 L.
The camera is a great starter - forces you to learn manual; fantastic AF, enough MP, between FF and APS-C, takes SD and CF, weather proof.
She could turn around and sell it and recoup 80%+ of her $$$ on a better body.
The downsides are weight and high ISO performance. Otherwise, it's a solid kit. And, she could live with that lens for a long time.
I think the weight combination of the 1d2n and 24-70 will be a big turnoff for a newbe. I'd go the mirrorless route as I did with my daughter.
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Having taught classes for youth and adults, I'd keep everything as simple as possible. Spending the entire $2K right away is neither necessary nor advisable.
My recommendation would be a Fuji X-E1 plus a 35mm f1.4 lens and socking the rest of the budget away for later. The camera has easy to set aperture and shutter speed, is light and compact and offers good image quality. It would be a good learning tool and right now is priced right. If your niece decides she needs something wider or longer or a zoom, those options are all available in the system. If she later decides a tripod or a studio light would be useful there's room left in the budget for that, too. I'm basing this on the assumption that your niece is young, doesn't have a clear photographic need in mind and isn't looking to turn photography into a profession. Keeping everything simple means keeping it fun, too.
-m
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I recently spent $350 for a used Nikon D5100 (16MP/supporting 14-bit RAW) that had about 1000 shutter clicks along with the kit lens 18-55VR and two batteries for a ten-year-old. Later added a used Nikon 35 1.8G DX prime lens and SB-600 speedlight for another $250. For $600, that's a bargain because the combo - the camera and the kit lens - produces superb image quality and its small size and light weight are perfect for a young boy. I am really impressed.
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I 'd get a Sony a7 or a Nikon D7100.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I 'd get a Sony a7 or a Nikon D7100.
Cheers,
Bernard
I would get a D610.
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I would get a D610.
Hum... this leaves very little money for the lens(es), doesn't it?
Cheers,
Bernard
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If anyone else intends to start their post with "I'd get...," I suggest they address it to Santa Claus. North Pole. ;)
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I have a niece wanting to start in the world of photography and has $2k to spend.
There is not a photographer alive that wouldn't improve their art and commerce by NOT upgrading their equipment at every turn.
These forums, all camera forums and blogs have a lot of good useful content, but are essentially advertising carriers for the camera equipment industry and are usually gear centric in content and readership.
To learn photography in any genre, means putting the most interesting subject possible in front of your lens and the latest 36mpx camera won't change a boring subject, ugly lighting, or simple composition.
Knowing this, all you niece needs is three things, a camera, a lens and a tripod and the largest (not in megapixels but format) sensor you can afford.
Maybe a fourth, a decent flash that will mount off camera, or a continuous light like a 500 watt fresnel.
A larger format sensor like a FF canon gives you the opportunity to learn to move depth of field in the learning process.
I'd Canon like the original 5d or a 1ds because they're very inexpensive and the files will open in 6 year old software and those bodies can be bought for $500 to $600.
(FF Nikons came on the scene later, so a D3 or D700 is twice the price, so that's why I mention Canon).
In regards to lenses, most modern lenses, even on the low end are excellent. A 50mm 1.8 will cover most of what anyone would shoot and sells for $200.
If she buys a zoom, treat it as a prime. survey the scene, then think what lens you would need, say a 35 or a 75 and then set the lens at that focal length and gaffer tape it down so you don't start hunting.
This should put the total outlay to $1200 and allow for less stress, more thought and maybe even time to think about the image . . . and learn.
To me the tripod is the most important as it forces the novice to learn to previsualize the photograph rather than just shoot and hope.
Also producing sharp images with a tripod is much easier and an in focus 11 mpx photograph has twice the visual detail of a out of focus 40mpx camera.
Once the image is based out, you can always remove the camera from the tripod and find more interesting angles, but there is a difference between making a photograph and taking a photograph.
If taking a photograph is a goal, then a mobile phone is fine, if making a photograph is the plan then a older ff 35mm camera, a lens a tripod and a light will go a long way to learning how to really produce a photograph.
Study the masters as photography really is a new art, so what was produced 60 years ago is viable today.
Avedon, Art Kane, Bert Stern, Ansel Adams, Weston, the list is long, will go a long way to giving an aspiring student a base.
But don't discount mobile phone photography. Some beautiful work is being produced by the camera in a pocket, and the camera you have at the best moment, is the best camera.
IMO
BC
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are used cameras ok?
canon 5d mkii or canon 6d with 50/1.4.
fuji x100s
fuji x-pro1 or fuji x-t1 with 35/1.4.
sony rx10
sony a6000 with 35/1.8.
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Sorry, been away a while. I did read this briefly a week or so ago and found all perspectives to be quite valid. I share everyone's different point of view, in fact that why I asked.
I certainly can't respond to all the differing of opinions, actually i'de rather not incite more debate, suffice to say after she felt the weight on my 5D and associated lenses, size was an issue. Then I lent her my Panasonic GF1 with 20mm pancake and she loved it.
So, she went something in between the 2 and has a new Fuji XE2 + 18-55 mm lens, good lightweight tripod and is off exploring the Melbourne streets.
I appreciate the advice and have still encouraged her to join the forums - knowing that not all of you are industry lobbyists!
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Sorry, been away a while. I did read this briefly a week or so ago and found all perspectives to be quite valid. I share everyone's different point of view, in fact that why I asked.
I certainly can't respond to all the differing of opinions, actually i'de rather not incite more debate, suffice to say after she felt the weight on my 5D and associated lenses, size was an issue. Then I lent her my Panasonic GF1 with 20mm pancake and she loved it.
So, she went something in between the 2 and has a new Fuji XE2 + 18-55 mm lens, good lightweight tripod and is off exploring the Melbourne streets.
I appreciate the advice and have still encouraged her to join the forums - knowing that not all of you are industry lobbyists!
Seems like a nice set up to start and. Fuji is quality equipment and there is a decent range of lenses available. So, this is not only beginner equipment. It could very well serve for long term use.
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I would buy a used 5d2 and a 50 1.4 and whatever speedlight i could get with the change.
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One really needs to know more about the photographic likes, desires and goals of the camera's owner.
If she is anything like my wife then the best advice I can give is buy something in purple or fuschia ;D
For the wife I'd suggest a $100 P&S with a $1900 Louis Vuitton camera case.
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One really needs to know more about the photographic likes, desires and goals of the camera's owner.
If she is anything like my wife then the best advice I can give is buy something in purple or fuschia ;D
For the wife I'd suggest a $100 P&S with a $1900 Louis Vuitton camera case.
This was the best advice in the lot...
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I'd buy a nice f1.4 50mm prime full frame lens ($500 new). I'd also buy a cheap f2.8 24mm prime. Buy a cheap body and tripod and Lightroom. Whatever is left goes toward whatever.
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There is not a photographer alive that wouldn't improve their art and commerce by NOT upgrading their equipment at every turn.
J,
I am going to frame this and post it in my office.
Edmund
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I am going to frame this and post it in my office.
I guess it will have come too late for the DP3m... ;D
Cheers,
Bernard
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I have a canon 1d and 5d with lots of L glass. Havent needed 'new' so have only kept a glancing eye on the latest and greatest.
I have a niece wanting to start in the world of photography and has $2k to spend.
I have emphasised the need to spend more on better glass with a lower end body.
If u only had $2k, what would you buy today?
Older (used) full-frame stuff and basic lenses.
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A Rolleiflex TLR 2.8 with film
I don't shoot film basically because it's too expensive
The more it goes, the more i think about selling my ricoh GR, using my phone for daily snaps and moving back to film
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There is not a photographer alive that wouldn't improve their art and commerce by NOT upgrading their equipment at every turn.
You know, I really don't understand this mentality. This is like saying that a professional commercial lawn service company should use $200 push mowers for every job. That's just crazy. Top quality photos are made with top quality equipment.
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The concept is that we take up too much time and brain space with equipment matters relative to the benefits achieved. Yes, being a geek can be fun, but it doesn't make you a better photographer if you neglect the artistic skills. One can start blaming lack of planning or poor execution of photo plan on outdated equipment instead of one's own bad habits. Truth to tell, my 4 year old digital beginner's DSLR Canon 60D is a miracle of engineering that enables me to do things that I never dreamed of in my film-shooting days. I have a ton of fun with the camera, and as I am not trying to sell huge prints, careful technique and a decent tripod will do very well.
Yes, I am considering getting the upcoming Canon action APS-C DSLR ("7D2"), and the prospect is occupying way too much brain space at the moment. What will this get me? Faster frame rate and better AF relative to the 60D, presumably resulting in a higher "keeper" rate - but it won't improve my ability to find the birds and position myself to get good light and a clear view of the birds.
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The concept is that we take up too much time and brain space with equipment matters relative to the benefits achieved. Yes, being a geek can be fun, but it doesn't make you a better photographer if you neglect the artistic skills. One can start blaming lack of planning or poor execution of photo plan on outdated equipment instead of one's own bad habits. Truth to tell, my 4 year old digital beginner's DSLR Canon 60D is a miracle of engineering that enables me to do things that I never dreamed of in my film-shooting days. I have a ton of fun with the camera, and as I am not trying to sell huge prints, careful technique and a decent tripod will do very well.
Yes, I am considering getting the upcoming Canon action APS-C DSLR ("7D2"), and the prospect is occupying way too much brain space at the moment. What will this get me? Faster frame rate and better AF relative to the 60D, presumably resulting in a higher "keeper" rate - but it won't improve my ability to find the birds and position myself to get good light and a clear view of the birds.
Precisely. It all depends on what you want to accomplish. If you're a wedding photographer, you probably need a fast camera, because your business is capturing moments.
If you want to make giant prints, you care about resolution and want to buy a camera with high resolution.
If you photograph portraits, you need at least a few good portrait lenses.
The quality of your equipment is only a piece of the overall equation. Ultimately, the photographer is responsible for the end result. However, it IS a piece. Without the equipment, you can't take a photograph.
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...Top quality photos are made with top quality equipment.
That is usually correct, though definitely not always. However, the opposite is not true: top quality equipment does not produce top quality photos... top quality photographers do (like James Russel - aka bcooter - they guy you quoted). By the way, I think you missed the crucial part of what he was saying: "at every turn."
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That is usually correct, though definitely not always. However, the opposite is not true: top quality equipment does not produce top quality photos... top quality photographers do (like James Russel - aka bcooter - they guy you quoted). By the way, I think you missed the crucial part of what he was saying: "at every turn."
People who say that you don't need the best lenses etc. to make great photos are only half right. Better lenses do provide better potential quality, but you have to be a good craftsman. All things being equal, a good craftsman with better equipment will produce better images.
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Hi,
Starting with a clean sheet I would buy either a decent camera with a kit lens or a decent camera with a premium zoom. I would add a short or long zoom to fit my budget.
Most of my best images were shot using a Sony Alpha 700 with 16-80/3.5-4.5 zoom lens (a premium zoom). The Alpha 700 has been replaced with a Sony Alpha 77 SLT, but I still use that zoom. The Alpha 77/16-80/3.5-4.5 combo is my favoured street shooting equipment.
For landscape I use a full frame or even MFD, but I honestly would say that an APS-C system, optimally used is a pretty good tool for almost any task.
Subject selection, composition, processing, proper technique are all more important than the technical quality of the image.
Best regards
Erik
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Stock in Apple.
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Sony a7.