Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Computers & Peripherals => Topic started by: armand on May 02, 2014, 03:26:34 pm
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My current computer will probably die and I'm contemplating building it myself (again) as I can save at least 2-300 on a similar build by a smaller builder. I could make it cheaper than my build if I buy from HP or maybe Dell but I risk losing upgradeability.
For future proof I would like Thunderbolt support.
Although the Thunderbolt is out for quite a while there are very few motherboards on the market that support it. The few on Newegg are out of stock or just not available anymore and it seems they had issues.
Even fewer that support Thunderbolt 2.
Is it worth it in Windows or not yet?
I also found this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813995027 which looks very interesting, It would make the decision easier. Any experiences with this?
PS. I guess I could buy a Macbook Pro with maxed proc and RAM but will get me at 3000 vs 2000 or less and most importantly I'm not in a mood to learn another OS and get new programs unless the Windows part is subpar. A Macpro it's just not worth it for me.
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It hasn't taken off for PCs because it's not needed, like it is with Macs. We don't need to live off external devices, and already have fast formats like eSATA.
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"We don't need to live off external devices"
You might not, but I'm sure there are many, many more PC users who do use external RAID , JBOD, and Drobo storage devices.
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True - but it's a choice. No choice with Macs, which is my point.
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True - but it's a choice. No choice with Macs, which is my point.
I am not clear what you are talking about. The same USB devices work on Macs, but people prefer 20Gb/S to 5Gb/s. It's true that disk speed may slow that but disks get faster, especially if you stripe them. You can also daisy chain which you can't do with USB.
I am sure PC users will eventually get Thunderbolt, the same way they eventually got the mouse, whatever that was. :)
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No one said anything about usb. PCs can use large internal builds is the point. Or fast external if we choose. As I said we don't NEED to live off externals so thunderbolt has never been important or a big feature. I never said anything about which is better so no need for defensive fanboyism I'm just telling you why the PC industry doesn't have to care about one of the needs of macs.
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You can't just pop open an iMac and put in more drives if you need to expand. That's the point.
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Thank you D Fosse for a professional explanation of the apparent issue.
No you can't pop open an iMac and put in extra disks easily but the same is also true of a lot of PCs unless you have one of those giant boxes that people used to have under their desk. You certainly could put extra drives in the previous Mac Pros but these days the world is moving to external drives because they are so easy to replace as the need for more capacity increases. My latest iMac I just went for a 500G SSD and everything other than the OS and apps is external. A pile of Drobos and you are away for ever.
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My current computer will probably die and I'm contemplating building it myself (again) as I can save at least 2-300 on a similar build by a smaller builder. I could make it cheaper than my build if I buy from HP or maybe Dell but I risk losing upgradeability.
For future proof I would like Thunderbolt support.
Although the Thunderbolt is out for quite a while there are very few motherboards on the market that support it. The few on Newegg are out of stock or just not available anymore and it seems they had issues.
Even fewer that support Thunderbolt 2.
Is it worth it in Windows or not yet?
I also found this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813995027 which looks very interesting, It would make the decision easier. Any experiences with this?
PS. I guess I could buy a Macbook Pro with maxed proc and RAM but will get me at 3000 vs 2000 or less and most importantly I'm not in a mood to learn another OS and get new programs unless the Windows part is subpar. A Macpro it's just not worth it for me.
If you really like to build a machine for yourself and like to select the specific components then that's a good choice. I did that years back, but since I also travel a lot I later changed to a MacBook Pro and this is my only machine now for 5 years. The new MBP retina is a marvelous, although expensive, piece of machine. It's fast, it is relatively light, nice retina screen, 1TB SSD. It can run OS X and also Windows. Supports up to two external 2560x1600 displays simultaneous with the built-in display. Thunderbolt and USB3. It's quiet and the fan only comes on with heavy CPU work like preview generation in Lightroom, otherwise completely silent which I really like. For normal editing in Lightroom or Photoshop the fan does not make any noise. The top end model with Quad Core i7, 1TB SSD, 16GB ram with an external big display, mouse and keyboard is a nice desktop as well.
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Thank you D Fosse for a professional explanation of the apparent issue.
You're welcome ;)
Sorry, not trying to be smart. But there is a real case at the bottom of this. Win users don't have to rely on external devices to the same extent, and that means the market isn't there. That's just a fact, deny it all you wish.
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You're welcome ;)
Sorry, not trying to be smart. But there is a real case at the bottom of this. Win users don't have to rely on external devices to the same extent, and that means the market isn't there. That's just a fact, deny it all you wish.
Win "desktop" users don't have to rely on external devices to the same extent....
There, I fixed it.
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Point taken :)
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My current computer will probably die and I'm contemplating building it myself (again) as I can save at least 2-300 on a similar build by a smaller builder. I could make it cheaper than my build if I buy from HP or maybe Dell but I risk losing upgradeability.
For future proof I would like Thunderbolt support.
Although the Thunderbolt is out for quite a while there are very few motherboards on the market that support it. The few on Newegg are out of stock or just not available anymore and it seems they had issues.
Even fewer that support Thunderbolt 2.
Is it worth it in Windows or not yet?
I also found this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813995027 which looks very interesting, It would make the decision easier. Any experiences with this?
PS. I guess I could buy a Macbook Pro with maxed proc and RAM but will get me at 3000 vs 2000 or less and most importantly I'm not in a mood to learn another OS and get new programs unless the Windows part is subpar. A Macpro it's just not worth it for me.
Last year I built a system using this thunderbolt board:
http://www.gigabyte.us/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4279#ov
It has been flawless. That said I've not used the Thunderbolt. But then again I don't use the Thunderbolt on my Macs either for external storage. (2-Mac minis, a 13 Retina, 13 Macbook Air and 2 15 Macbooks) I do use it for external video connections and connection to my network with the 13 Retina and Macbook Air.
Don't be afraid of going to OSX, it was an easy switch and I was a windows guy forever.
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"We don't need to live off external devices"
You might not, but I'm sure there are many, many more PC users who do use external RAID , JBOD, and Drobo storage devices.
so do you have an external device that can saturate even USB 3.0 port in a real life (not theoretical multiplications) ? and enterprising PC owner can always get couple of infiniband cards and use DIY storage device from his old tower.
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Win "desktop" users don't have to rely on external devices to the same extent....
There, I fixed it.
Actually, you can buy dual HD or add extra internal HDs to many Windows laptops if you want to. Unlike with all Macs, where you only get one paltry drive and no way of adding another, so you have no option but to use Thunderbolt for extra storage.
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Actually, you can buy dual HD or add extra internal HDs to many Windows laptops if you want to. Unlike with all Macs, where you only get one paltry drive and no way of adding another, so you have no option but to use Thunderbolt for extra storage.
Wrong. Both of my 15 inch MacBook Pro laptops have two drives, an sdd and a standard hard drive.
And let's also not forget the wonderful invention called USB. Or Ethernet. Or in the case of my 15 inch MBP's, FireWire.
Even worse, I have 4 different windows laptops as well and not a one allows for a second drive internally...
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There are always exceptions to prove any case, but the reality (r e a l i t y) is that PCs are in general more easily expandable internally than Macs, be it desktop, tower, server or notebook, than Macs. For that reason, there has been less impetus for Thunderbolt on Windows and so we don't see as many options or as much uptake.
USB, Firewire, Ethernet, etc - are all very slow compared to SATA3 or PCI-e.
That doesn't make Mac bad or PC good or vice versa - it just "is".
In time, the market may change, but not yet.
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There are always exceptions to prove any case, but the reality (r e a l i t y) is that PCs are in general more easily expandable internally than Macs, be it desktop, tower, server or notebook, than Macs. For that reason, there has been less impetus for Thunderbolt on Windows and so we don't see as many options or as much uptake.
USB, Firewire, Ethernet, etc - are all very slow compared to SATA3 or PCI-e.
That doesn't make Mac bad or PC good or vice versa - it just "is".
In time, the market may change, but not yet.
I just love " generally"....
The r e a l i t y is that if consumers want thunderbolt on a PC they can find it. The other r e a l I t y is like the vast majority of Mac buyers, the vast majority of PC buyers will never even attempt to crack open their PC to try and upgrade it. I SUSPECT that the R E A L I T Y for the lack of thunderbolt on mass market PC's is purely price point related.
That is neither good or bad, it just. "is".
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Generally is an important concept to master as it gives you an understanding of what is happening in the majority of cases.
I believe you are wrong. The price point isn't the issue. Many PC users pick up new gear regardless of prices, sometimes because they want the latest, sometimes because they're uninformed, plus many other reasons. Of course a higher price will limit the uptake. However, demand is lower because there is less need. It's still easier and cheaper to do an internal upgrade (not to mention "full" speed performance) on a PC than a Mac. As such, there's less driving force for an alternative at this point.
So, you can employ sarcasm by all means, but it doesn't alter the strength of your arguement, which is low.
I also don't understand your agressive attitude, but perhaps you've decided to externalise other things that are best left internal?
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Generally is an important concept to master as it gives you an understanding of what is happening in the majority of cases.
I believe you are wrong. The price point isn't the issue. Many PC users pick up new gear regardless of prices, sometimes because they want the latest, sometimes because they're uninformed, plus many other reasons. Of course a higher price will limit the uptake. However, demand is lower because there is less need. It's still easier and cheaper to do an internal upgrade (not to mention "full" speed performance) on a PC than a Mac. As such, there's less driving force for an alternative at this point.
So, you can employ sarcasm by all means, but it doesn't alter the strength of your arguement, which is low.
I also don't understand your agressive attitude, but perhaps you've decided to externalise other things that are best left internal?
Who is being aggressive? Oh wait that might have been Farmer? Gosh. Is that R E A L I T Y?
Easier and cheaper? Really? Let's review? Is a memory upgrade on a Mac mini for example, easier or cheaper on a similar PC? How about a upgrade from a standard hard drive to an sdd on a non retina MBPS and most any PC laptop?
Generalization...ya just gotta love it.
My argument is doing just fine, too bad it seems to be beyond your ken.
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You are being aggressive, Craig - it started before you decided to try your hand at sarcasm on me - you do it frequently. It's unnecessary. You love using the word "ken" and suggesting that you're the intellectual superior of anyone who disagrees with you (that would be a lot of people, I guess) and you become aggressive as soon as someone doesn't immediately bend down and kiss your paradigm.
I grok your meaning perfectly well, but for anyone reasonably versed in IT it's a very, very simple argument - the lack of demand is because of the lack of need (perceived or otherwise). You seem to take that a personal affront to your choices. That's fine - that's your problem. It's not an attack on your or anything at all, it's just experienced analysis.
As for your examples, well, you don't really understand what generalisation means, do you?
Have a generally nice day, Craig, and feel free to have the last word (you know you want to) - I won't make the mistake of trying to discuss something with you in the future.
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You are being aggressive, Craig - it started before you decided to try your hand at sarcasm on me - you do it frequently. It's unnecessary. You love using the word "ken" and suggesting that you're the intellectual superior of anyone who disagrees with you (that would be a lot of people, I guess) and you become aggressive as soon as someone doesn't immediately bend down and kiss your paradigm.
I'm not suggesting I'm anything but right. My argument can be supported by fact, yours not so much. Thats R E A L I T Y.
I grok your meaning perfectly well, but for anyone reasonably versed in IT it's a very, very simple argument - the lack of demand is because of the lack of need (perceived or otherwise). You seem to take that a personal affront to your choices. That's fine - that's your problem. It's not an attack on your or anything at all, it's just experienced analysis.
Yes it is a very simple argument, Thunderbolt for example is expensive it implement and like it or not PC's are price point products. Funny how it finds it way to high end products, "need" or not....
As for your examples, well, you don't really understand what generalisation means, do you?
Have a generally nice day, Craig, and feel free to have the last word (you know you want to) - I won't make the mistake of trying to discuss something with you in the future.
My examples are SPECIFIC...For a reason. Making GENERAL statements is foolish in this context simply because those statements are meaningless. This thread was very specific, and then someone tried to "generalize" it. But hey, generalize to your hearts content.
I'd say I'll generally miss you...but...
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Wrong. Both of my 15 inch MacBook Pro laptops have two drives, an sdd and a standard hard drive.
I have two disk drives in my MBP as it happens, but try buying an Apple computer and fitting a second drive today.
Even worse, I have 4 different windows laptops as well and not a one allows for a second drive internally...
Strange as my MBP doesn't either, yet I managed to fit one in it as have you. Don't ever recall a Mac laptop having the option of a second drive, yet it is an option with some PC laptops. And if the option is not there then do the same hack as you did with your MBPs.
This image sums up the shit design paradigm that Apple are forcing us to go down. Making products fractionally narrower/smaller so Apple can bleat about 'x' being very slightly thinner than it's previous version because they removed the contents that now take up more space by being on the outside.
.
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I have two disk drives in my MBP as it happens, but try buying an Apple computer and fitting a second drive today.
Strange as my MBP doesn't either, yet I managed to fit one in it as have you. Don't ever recall a Mac laptop having the option of a second drive, yet it is an option with some PC laptops. And if the option is not there then do the same hack as you did with your MBPs.
This image sums up the shit design paradigm that Apple are forcing us to go down. Making products fractionally narrower/smaller so Apple can bleat about 'x' being very slightly thinner than it's previous version because they removed the contents that now take up more space by being on the outside.
So why not just man up and admit you made a mistake? You don't like Apple. Got it. So don't buy one.
Btw, you can still buy a non retina MBP and add that second drive if you wish. Same with the Mac mini.
I seriously love the form factor of my Air and an even smaller 13 inch Air would be perfect. YMMV
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So why not just man up and admit you made a mistake? You don't like Apple. Got it. So don't buy one.
Didn't say I don't dislike Apple, that's your assumption. Macolytes yes, they're tedious pains in the arse. I'm brand agnostic myself. I simply use whatever is the best tool I can afford. Never understood why people get so attached to brands, that they take umbrage that someone dares to point out flaws in their products. And Apple stuff is certainly flawed, led more and more by looks than functionality as the picture above, which ironically leads to a less attractive setup.
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Didn't say I don't dislike Apple, that's your assumption. Macolytes yes, they're tedious pains in the arse. I'm brand agnostic myself. I simply use whatever is the best tool I can afford. Never understood why people get so attached to brands, that they take umbrage that someone dares to point out flaws in their products. And Apple stuff is certainly flawed, led more and more by looks than functionality as the picture above, which ironically leads to a less attractive setup.
Oh come on. You rag on Apple all the time. Let me try and remember your last Apple Rant...oh yes I think it was about power cords...
I'm not a big fan of the lack of internal space in the new Mac Pro and I've said so. It's the reason I don't own one.
So man up...
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Wow.
With data requirements doubling every 12-24 months it is obvious that internal drives are going to become obsolete, unless of course your computer only lasts a very short time.
All of my windows computers in the last 20 years have lasted only 3 years. My macs have lasted over 5 years. So internal drives have traditioanlly been the limiting factor on the Macs, hence I think the reason they are moving external. Eventually PCs will do the same.
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It hasn't taken off for PCs because it's not needed, like it is with Macs. We don't need to live off external devices, and already have fast formats like eSATA.
I like to say (been in tech myself):
If Mds were like some "tech gurus" most patients will die because the physician will give them the medicine he or she needs (the doctor, that is) and not the medicine the patient actually needs. Besides, about 30% of the Mds will actually have hypochondria. :)
The reality is:
1. Most people use laptops. That includes many professionals. Most people using desktops use standard desktops that do not include esata ports. (after USB3 become mainstream)
2. Most people that work (professionally) in video (HD) and even Photography already have external boxes. Is needed for bandwidth and/or capacity. High level professionals that work for organizations use fibre channel (or similar) shared storage.
3. eSATA started as a hack for most machines. I am sure most people using external boxes are using USB3 (fast enough, multiple uses). That's the reason for the limited sales of Thunderbolt. USB3 is very good, and low price. Also USB is mandatory for some handheld devices in Europe. Have you notice how esata is no longer as popular? .Check HP and Dell by example: The laptops and desktops that have esata are designed for people that will pay extra for it. In few words: esata was a great idea in the USB2 /firewire800 era. Today is an anachronism.
4. The external boxes are easier to check and update (for expantion or because a drive failure). It also easier to migrate and to grow with external boxes (you can also daisy with thunderbolt, with USB you can add a new one or just remove the old one).
Managing storage is easier . If you need to go to location you can leave the drives secured on your office.
Just to clarify: It's not that I don't believe in big boxes. Some times they are the best option. (please notice that nowadays even most servers sold are not big boxes with a lot of internal expansion any more). Building your own box is this days more about Status, price (if we don't count time or if you are expert) and pretty especial needs.
Best regards,
J Duncan
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Oh come on. You rag on Apple all the time. Let me try and remember your last Apple Rant...oh yes I think it was about power cords...
So man up...
No, as I said above I can't stand Macolytes, there's a difference. I use Macs but give a real world view that isn't rose tinted as I don't suffer from choice supportive bias. Which gets more pronounced the more expensive the product. So Apple users tend to be in particularly severe denial about anything possible negative. I'm contrary as the more expensive the product, the more critical I am of it's failings, as pricier kit should be better than cheaper items.
And yes their cables are still [expensive] crap. My MBP power block is now about to visit the Apple store as it reached silly high temperatures the other day. The half that connects to the computer has already been replaced through a product recall and the damage it [or now maybe the power block] did to laptop also needed fixing.
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I am not clear what you are talking about. The same USB devices work on Macs, but people prefer 20Gb/S to 5Gb/s. It's true that disk speed may slow that but disks get faster, especially if you stripe them. You can also daisy chain which you can't do with USB.
I am sure PC users will eventually get Thunderbolt, the same way they eventually got the mouse, whatever that was. :)
I am not clear what you are talking about. The same USB devices work on Macs, but people prefer 20Gb/S to 5Gb/s. It's true that disk speed may slow that but disks get faster, especially if you stripe them. You can also daisy chain which you can't do with USB.
I am sure PC users will eventually get Thunderbolt, the same way they eventually got the mouse, whatever that was. :)
Bob it was not just the Mouse. I am old enough to remember that they:
1. Opposed the GUI (graphical user interface) as an interface designed for stupids by idiots.
2. Opposing machines with no serial and parallel ports.
3. Opposed LCD displays.
4. Opposed Javascript.
5. Defended the netbook when arrived and years down the road, but opposed laptops when they started to become popular (I already posted elsewhere my experience that end up with the question to the users: What pcie cards have you buy in the last 10 years?, so why do you care?).
6. Opposed cellular phones with touch screens (people need a keyboard{they should have say: I want a keyboard} ).
The other side of the coin is that today, they are using all or most of the technologies they decried at the moment. Also they were calling people
that were willing to evaluate needs and prices "fanbois" in the best of the cases (remember the users are stupid mantra).
I have been on TI most of my life (before I worked as a Math and Physics profesor) I have worked from programing to databases and from support to server administration and as a consultant. It is pretty common to have to face the "We are better" actitud of my colleagues. It's tiresome.
I don't want to come up as harsh, but the technical people needs to understand that knowing how to use or assemble a computer don't make them smarter than a Lawyer or a Medical Dr, nor better than anyone. They also need to remember that their track record discriminating good technologies is abismal.
The TI people that properly select technologies, are the ones that are willing to listen to needs of the users. The ones willing to read actual specs before rushing conclusions. The ones that combine that rationality with a humble approach.
Best regards,
J. Duncan
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I like to say (been in tech myself):
If Mds were like some "tech gurus" most patients will die because the physician will give them the medicine he or she needs (the doctor, that is) and not the medicine the patient actually needs. Besides, about 30% of the Mds will actually have hypochondria. :)
Yup.
With tech/camera gear etc, find out what the person wants, don't try and sell them kit for your needs.
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No, as I said above I can't stand Macolytes, there's a difference. I use Macs but give a real world view that isn't rose tinted as I don't suffer from choice supportive bias. Which gets more pronounced the more expensive the product. So Apple users tend to be in particularly severe denial about anything possible negative. I'm contrary as the more expensive the product, the more critical I am of it's failings, as pricier kit should be better than cheaper items.
And yes their cables are still [expensive] crap. My MBP power block is now about to visit the Apple store as it reached silly high temperatures the other day. The half that connects to the computer has already been replaced through a product recall and the damage it [or now maybe the power block] did to laptop also needed fixing.
Sure...
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Yup.
With tech/camera gear etc, find out what the person wants, don't try and sell them kit for your needs.
Apple doesn't do market research. As Steve Jobs said, "people don't know what they want until you give it to them."
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........and most importantly I'm not in a mood to learn another OS and get new programs unless the Windows part is subpar. A Macpro it's just not worth it for me.
I can Imagine...
learning how a computer system works is learning a lot of bullshit and little facts you just need to know to keep the machine running. ( it is useful to know at that moment, but i would not call it knowledge; i would like to fill my brain with real knowledge) ( the worst things to learn are video recorders manuals)
Im my case i am used to OSX and everytime i need to work on a windows (7) computer i think.. I don't want to know this !... and also... what is Windows ugly ! ( graphic design)
(the latter is perhaps not important to everyone...)
Anyway it seems you can make a Windows with thunderbolt... The good thing of Apple is there machines are advanced so they will be longer up to date..
the bad thing is they are advanced so you cannot buy anything connecting to thunderbolt up until now, and it is still way too expensive...
But if you want to do 4K video i would like a macpro..
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Apple doesn't do market research. As Steve Jobs said, "people don't know what they want until you give it to them."
I don't think it was a direct comment on Apple, but 'tech gurus' in general.
But even so, Apple give you want they want. Which may not be what we all need or is useful. Take highly reflective monitors, no-one needs to see themselves and their surroundings whilst using a computer. One size earbuds simply shows complete ignorance of human beings and how they vary, so I open phone packaging and chuck them in bin. Being unable to connect my iPad to things because 18months after purchase, the proprietary connector is still obscure and you need to bodge connections with adaptors.
I tend to have to buy things that are the least annoying/crap, when I would much rather prefer to buy things that are positively good.
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Lots of locales have small boutique computer builders who can build and configure a Win PC if you don't want to do it yourself. My Fractal Design Arc Midi case has room for eight drives in two separate cages and two more small SSDs beneath the motherboard for a total of 10. This case is not a behemouth and fits conveniently on my desk top. Now I built it myself and can upgrade as desired. I don't do photography for a living and don't have a huge LR database to manage but that's not the point. As Phil notes internal SATA drives are really fast these days and one doesn't need a Thunderbolt port to take advantage of it.
Personally I don't like paying a premium for overpriced equipment so I'm obviously not a Mac user. I also do at home consulting and don't need a laptop so for me the choice is pretty simple. I don't hold any animus towards Mac users as their computers can do exactly the same things that mine can.
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How full does this pool have to get before you guys stop pissing on each other?