Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: William Walker on April 24, 2014, 06:18:40 am
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Hi
I have bought a used Epson 3880 that I want to dedicate solely to Piezography.
To be honest, I am a little frustrated by the Inkjetmall Site. In order to register for the forum, a "Customer Number" is required. I signed up to purchase ink etc. thinking that a customer number would then be allocated/generated. Nothing.
I sent off an e-mail - no reply!
All I want to know is this: What do I need to get started? Shipping to South Africa is expensive so I don't want to find out that I need this or that after the fact. I cannot find any information on their site that mentions "Start-up Kit for Epson 3880" or similar. It seems as though there is a presumption that everyone knows what they should be doing, sorry! I don't! If this information is available then I apologise, I just cannot find it.
Can anyone help?
Thanks
William
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First time buyers should look here for information about Piezography. Users can hone their skills here.
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/sc.15/category.27707/.f
I have not used their product yet but have been considering. Hope this helps
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First time buyers should look here for information about Piezography. Users can hone their skills here.
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/sc.15/category.27707/.f
I have not used their product yet but have been considering. Hope this helps
Hi Walter
Thanks - I have been on that page and many other too!
Specifically, I need someone to tell me the required products needed to get started - a shopping list. There are a whole lot of options and products on sale, but I have no clue which of those products are vital, optional, "good to have" etc. etc.
William
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The hardest part about piezography is deciding on the inkset that you like best. I went with the Selenium K7 MPS gloss and matte on an Epson 9890.
On the Inkjetmall site, find the printer you are converting. In a nutshell, you'll need the empty refillable cartridge set and and your desired inkset. Depending on your printer, the cartridge set may include syringes and funnels. You'll need the chip re-setter for refilling the cartridges as well. I've found that it is a good idea to keep an extra set of the user-replaceable chips for the cartridges on the shelf. If a chip does go bad, you won't have to wait for Inkjet Mall to send out a replacement before finishing your print job! Once the printer is converted, you'll basically just need to buy your inkset for refills.
You'll also need the QTR software (use Cone's manual for QTR not Roy's when printing for piezography) and the downloadable curves for your printer and papers.
Under "Free Tech Support" on the Inkjetmall site, you'll find a helpful user forum: http://www.inkjetmall.com/tech/content.php Also see, www.piezography.com
:) ken
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Hi Ken
I also like the Selenium.
I have moved a step forward in that I was able to work out how to join the forum!
I will direct all my questions over there!
Thanks for the help.
William
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You will love the Piezography system. I've have a split tone set but will be modifing it shortly. One other thing you should consider is getting a set of empty carts for piezoflush which is a cleaning solution for inkjet printers. The printer I converted was a used 4800 that I got off ebay. The company I got it from had gotten from another company as payment for some work. It had been used very little and the company just wanted to get it off it's hands as they had no use for it. When it arrived (it shipped to MN from Kansas) it still had the original carts in it(but WELL past the experation date). I knew what the condition would be in when I got it and knew that it needed to be cleaned out. Two power flushes with the piezoflush produced a perfect nozzle check(the stuff is pink so it's easy to see). That was over a year ago and I haven't had an issue yet with the inkset. The system using QTR is almost turnkey in it's simplicity and the results are breathtaking. One thing to keep in mind is that sometimes the tone can be influenced by the paper you use so plan on trying a few to find what works best for you and the images you print. The people at IJM are really nice to deal with and they do try to be as helpful as they can, but they are are a small company by choice. You might also want to check out the Yahoo group as well Piezograhy Group 3000.
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William,
The InkjetMall Technical Support forum is a forum for registered customers who require technical support with products they have purchased - so we keep the participation on that forum strictly to customers who have already purchased. What you are looking for is pre-sales help and you can simply write us at InkjetMall for that... you can reach us at sales (at) inkjetmall (dot) com or write me directly at jon (at) inkjetmall (dot) com I am known to be on email 24 hours a day and very accessible. Let me know by email if you need more help.
For the 3880 you need a set of cartridges and you need a set of inks. We have five Piezography ink sets and sample prints are available on the Store site.
For the 3880 the options in each of these five ink sets are matte/glossy printing ink set (because you want to do both)....or there are slightly less expensive ink sets that print matte only or gloss only (because you prefer only to print one or the other).
There is nothing else you need to print Piezography other than paper.
Although you are required to download and use QuadTone RIP - you do not need to make your own curves. We provide all of these K7 curves to Roy Harrington who includes them in the download. We make other K7 curves available from our websites. You would need to download and read our Piezography Manual (in technical support section of www.piezography.com) because while Piezography uses the QuadTone RIP driver - it does not use QTR workflow. You need to follow our workflow.
Best regards,
Jon Cone
InkjetMall / Piezography
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Hi Jon
Thanks for the reply - Dana has made contact with me and I am waiting for a reply. I'm sure it will all get sorted out and I look forward to working with your products!
Regards
William
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MIS Eboni inks are also an option.
Their pure carbon inks are more neutral than Piezography inks, which are a sepia hue. Can't print on glossy, though (although matte paper plus spray coating equals glossy anyway).
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I purchased a 3880 last year for piezography and it has worked perfectly. Jon and Dana were very helpful in getting me launched. Be sure to view Dana's video which you can find on their shopping website in the Piezography B/W inks drop-down menu/Empty refillable cartridge systems/Epson 3880.
For the 3880, in addition to the empty refillable cart set from Inkjetmall, you have to already have or purchase a set of 3880 chips. Installation instructions are enclosed with the cart sets. I bought an additional set from Inkjetmall so I could keep my new OEM color set intact with its original chips, but the extra chips are expensive. If the person you bought the printer from still has used carts that he didn't throw out, it would be valuable to get those so you can use the chips in a second set of the refillable carts which you may want for piezoflush, for split toning, or a for a second set of different inks. Installing a second cart set without the extra chips requires moving the chips back and forth and too much of that could mess them up.
With two dedicated piezography printers I've have tried all the Cone matte and glossy ink sets. IMHO the MPS glossy selenium is the closest to a classic chemical darkroom print and is a good choice if you stay with one ink set. Warm neutral and Special Edition are ideal for certain subjects, and carbon is very beautiful. To see if you like an ink set, you can send them a favorite file and get a sample print mailed to you.
Lynn
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I purchased a 3880 last year for piezography and it has worked perfectly. Jon and Dana were very helpful in getting me launched. Be sure to view Dana's video which you can find on their shopping website in the Piezography B/W inks drop-down menu/Empty refillable cartridge systems/Epson 3880.
For the 3880, in addition to the empty refillable cart set from Inkjetmall, you have to already have or purchase a set of 3880 chips. Installation instructions are enclosed with the cart sets. I bought an additional set from Inkjetmall so I could keep my new OEM color set intact with its original chips, but the extra chips are expensive. If the person you bought the printer from still has used carts that he didn't throw out, it would be valuable to get those so you can use the chips in a second set of the refillable carts which you may want for piezoflush, for split toning, or a for a second set of different inks. Installing a second cart set without the extra chips requires moving the chips back and forth and too much of that could mess them up.
With two dedicated piezography printers I've have tried all the Cone matte and glossy ink sets. IMHO the MPS glossy selenium is the closest to a classic chemical darkroom print and is a good choice if you stay with one ink set. Warm neutral and Special Edition are ideal for certain subjects, and carbon is very beautiful. To see if you like an ink set, you can send them a favorite file and get a sample print mailed to you.
Lynn
Hi Lynn
Thanks for your reply. As I said, in my above post to Jon, Inkjetmall have made contact with me and have given me an estimate of what I need. They have made no mention of chips and chips are not shown in the pro-forma invoice I have received. I presume these are included with the refillable cartridges? Are you saying that if I have old Epson carts I would then need to purchase chips for them?
I am pleased to see what you say about the selenium inks - that classic look is what I am going for! It seems that sending your favourite file option is no longer available - I will double check.
Thanks again
William
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William - I'd just like to add a few observations and a voice of support for the folks at InkjetMall.
Like yourself, I just purchased a 3880 (yesterday) with the intent of converting to piezography. I'm in Canada - have limited access to resources and in my case, limited experience in the world of wide format fine art printing.
I can't say enough for the support I got from Cathy when I called their toll-free number. Joining the forums as a customer only took purchasing some inexpensive printed ink/paper samples and something that I think any new user should do anyway. From that, it only took a day or so to get the forum registration. Again, I appreciate the contact from Jon and Dana. On top of that, Wells got back to me and saved me $20 on shipping my order - what could be better?
In any event, I'm realizing that the world of wide format fine art printing is a challenging one - frustrating with expensive mistakes. I don't think that the printer manufacturers are interested in making it easy for users like me - in today's world I know they can make this more intuitive. I read a tech rep response on this forum that said their product is designed for constant use and anybody who isn't printing regularly should expect problems and use a service instead - not very reassuring. Before anybody gets too defensive, I do realize that there are a lot of satisfied users out there. I also know that the learning curve can be very frustrating for newbies like me. I suspect that there will be days when I'll need a virgin, four goats and a full moon to get a print but I think that's just the nature of the beast - not piezography. I appreciate that Mr. Cone and his staff are there to help me through it.
Anyway, all the best and keep posting how you make out.
Dave
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William, you do need the chips off some older 3880 ink carts to use on the refillables. Those chips do not come with the refillable ones. The only chip on the refillable is the chip that sits on top of your older ink cart's chip. It's a piggyback affair with the Epson chip under the refillable tank's chip that fools the printer into thinking the cart is always full.
The Epson chips have to go on the right ink cart too. Can't mix them. Epson magenta's chip goes under the magenta refillable tanks chip, etc. They will always show as full too on the computer or the LCD on the printer so that's normal. I pull mine once a month and shake them up and check the levels.
The old chips need to have the little spot welded plastic nub cut off with a razor blade, then pried off the old tanks to use on the new ones. Cone may have them for sale if he has stock. They can be expensive for an entire set if you don't have some older used ones handy. Might find some used carts on eBay too, but there is something about if the ink was too low, they might not be acceptable or readable again once placed under the refillable's chip too. Those chips have a notch in them that aligns with the one in the ink cart's well they drop into too. It's possible to put them in backwards if you don't watch for it (Done that!).
Another tip is to put some wide clear tape over that seam where the outside chip's cover snaps down - and tightly too. For some reason, that seam might catch inside the printer sliding it in and then you have an issue. The tape covers most all of the top chip covers area (I used 2" wide clear thin packing tape.) except the area around the gold contact pads on the outer chip. Makes it a lot easier - and safer - sliding the things in and out of the printer. If it binds without the tape, you're snagging the printer and maybe the contacts, not good.
Good luck.
SG
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All the carts that I have recieved from IJM had chips already attached(for 4800), but it never hurts to have spares and IJM sell them for about $5@ IIRC.
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The two previous posts by Some Guy and KeithR illustrate the reason for my frustration - Some Guy says I need them, Keith says, in his case, he did not.
Jon Cone in his post here said all I needed was the carts and the ink, so, either I am to assume that I do not require the chips, or, he assumes that I know about having to use the old chips (which I do not have).
Dave, I am on the other side of the world, so phoning is not an option. I sent Dana a detailed e-mail asking, point-for-point, to address some of my uncertainties. The e-mail was forwarded to Wells who sent me a pro-forma invoice/estimate for carts and ink without one of my queries being answered. Unfortunately my experience of their helpfulness has not been the same as yours.
The reason I am being such a pain in the ass is that I would hate for them to ship my order out here to South Africa, only to find that a) I can't get started immediately because I need something they assumed I had or thought I knew, and b) the cost of having to ship something out to me because of "a".
A simple "Getting Started" or similar section on their website explaining precisely what one needs to purchase, what one is expected to have, what is absolutely necessary, what options are recommended and so on - all in one single document - would, I am sure, be a good idea.
Honestly, if I had not already bought the printer, I am pretty sure I would have given up by now! I have sent Wells another e-mail asking specifically about the chips and look forward to a reply soon.
Hopefully I can get my order finalised and start printing!
Thanks for all the information!
William
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William, here is the link to the refill carts on Cone's site: http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/it.A/id.5665/.f?sc=15&category=39494 (http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/it.A/id.5665/.f?sc=15&category=39494)
Read the right sidebar or the tab "Brief description" and the need for the OEM chip. You can see the green colored "pirate chip" circuit board snap-on thing sitting on the tanks in the photo, but the OEM chip off an used (or new) cart is needed and it slips under that "pirate chip" one. There are some small springs that push down onto the OEM chip from the "pirate" one (Which also pushes the affair up needing the tape mentioned already to hold it down so it slips into the printer easier.).
At one time Cone had the OEM chips for $5-$20 each (Price went up due to scarcity no doubt.). I got a few at one time, and had to bug my local IT department at a university who gave me some old ones they had and were tossing out. I even bought a set of refillables out of eBay (China) for a second 3880 and are identical to Cone's for half the price, but they too needed the OEM cart's chip. Would be interesting if he was including the OEM chip with the refillables now, but I doubt if that's going on.
It would be best if you could get it all from Cone just for shipping alone, plus if one goes south for whatever reason, it will be easier to sort it out since he sold both to you (Cart and OEM chip.). Otherwise, you might have to buy a whole new set out of China if one doesn't work or read right, or hunt down another OEM chip too.
SG
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William, just to clarify, the carts on my 4800 only need the one chip that is each designated for that cart.
Epson threw in a monkey wrench with the 3880 to make it more difficult for people to use third party inks and carts and thus the need for the chips dedicated to your printer. The post from SomeGuy is a good one and once you get everything from IJM it will become very clear. If you go to the link that SomeGuy supplied, just below the image of the carts, you will see a link to a YouTube Video that shows Dana explaining the chips and how to attach them to the refil carts and also the refill procedure itself.
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Williiam:
For sure in the 3880 you need OEM Epson chips to fit in with the Cone refillable carts which come from Inkjetmall without the required additional chips, as explained by Some Guy in his post above. If your used printer has an old set of Epson carts installed with it, you can use those chips for your piezography conversion and you don't need to buy others unless you want them for a second refillable cart set.
The confusion arises because different Epson printers have different cart installation designs. I don't have a 4800 or 9890 as cited in the other posts, but their design may be different from the 3880 which does require OEM chips in addition to the refillable cart set.
Many 3880 owners or buyers who convert to piezography cut the OEM chips from the Epson ink carts they got with the printer. (Dana's video mentioned in my previous post demonstrates how to do this and is easy to follow.) In my case I bought the 3880 new and wanted to keep the full Epson color ink set intact for possible future use, so I bought a full set of OEM chips from Inkjetmall. Unfortunately the price has gone up on these. Doesn't your used printer have a set of the carts that were last in use still in the printer? Were you able to see it make prints before buying? Perhaps your seller has the used carts still on hand. If not, you might email Jon again to clarify what you need.
If Inkjetmall does't have them and you are stuck, you might a "wanted to buy" post on LuLa or GetDPI.com. for a set of used 3880 carts. I've never tried to purchase them on ebay.
Let us know how it works out for you.
Lynn
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Thank you all for making me finally see the picture! So, I don't only need the ink and the refillable carts...
The problem I have with the website is that all the information is there - it just seems to be scattered around and is difficult to follow in - to me anyway - in a logical sequence.
I have two 3880's and was hoping to use the inks from the "new" one once I'd finished the ink on the "old" one. What I am going to do is print like mad on whichever one has the least ink so I can recover the chips from those carts.
I will proceed with my Inkjetmall order and look forward to a new learning curve and some good printing.
Thanks to all!
William
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do the OEM chips (in my case, 3800/3880) have a lower limit on what makes them usable?
In other words, do the chips need to come from carts that were something like >15% full or could they be from
carts that were drawn down to as empty as possible? I have a set of carts that will very soon be completely empty.
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+1
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do the OEM chips (in my case, 3800/3880) have a lower limit on what makes them usable?
In other words, do the chips need to come from carts that were something like >15% full or could they be from
carts that were drawn down to as empty as possible? I have a set of carts that will very soon be completely empty.
If I understand your question correctly Howard, it shouldn't matter. You "reset" the chip with every time you refill the ink cartridges. As long as the chips remain in working condition, you should be good to go.
William---your first B&W printer conversion may at times seem to be difficult or confusing. There is room for some better website organization of information from IJM. But the resources are there, and the customer service from IJM is top-notch. Once you've completed the B&W Piezography conversion, it'll seem pretty simple from there! It isn't as hard as it appears, and the workflow isn't difficult either.
:) ken
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Thanks Ken
Yes, it appears that once you have got yourself organised with the correct items, the information regarding printing seems much easier to follow.
I placed my order this morning!
Thanks again to everyone who helped me!
William
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do the OEM chips (in my case, 3800/3880) have a lower limit on what makes them usable?
In other words, do the chips need to come from carts that were something like >15% full or could they be from
carts that were drawn down to as empty as possible? I have a set of carts that will very soon be completely empty.
I've read that stuff too.
However, I have used chips off discards that were empty. Most of the empties still have about 10-15ml of ink in them too. I'm guessing IJM sold the chips off used ones too. How much empty is the question. So far I haven't had any issues with the OEM chip off empties other than one time I managed to install it the wrong way under that snap-on chip. I thought it was maybe too low for the cart, but just flipped around 180 degrees.
For the 3880 specifically, I believe Jose (Toolman) got a resetter tool (Hard to find, Alibaba I think is where he found it?) for the OEM carts. He did come up with a way to fill the OEM carts as well, but it takes a bit of mechanical work to defeat the valve and bag inside the OEM ink cart. The resetter he got made the chip operate like it was a normal cart, and not always showing full like the pirate chip cart does with the OEM chip under it. Would be nice if some refillable carts had that snap-in thing replaced with the OEM chip and a resetter tool both like the Canon's are capable of. With those, it shows normal full to empty in the printer's maintenance/driver window. Epson 3880 is always indicating full so I check and shake the carts once a month.
Oh. The bottles Cone supplies with some ink has a soft pointy nozzle that you can just press into the refillable cart's hole and not use the syringe again after the initial filling and sucking out the ink for the priming part on a brand new cart. Saves some clean-up time of the syringe and needle doing it that way too. It's easier to pull the nozzle off the bottle the first time with the syringe to fill it too (vacuum sucks ink back into the bottle otherwise.).
SG
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Any idea if the refillable carts at Inkjetmall for the 7900 come with the right chips already installed? Or do you need to buy the chips separately?
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The carts that I got from IJM(when I 1st ordered Piezography inks), for my 4800, had the chips already installed. I had ordered another set of carts(exact same design as what I got from IJM) from the internet(from Canada) and those also came with chips that all read 100% whan I put them in the ink bays.
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I have used Piezo many years ago on a Mac with great success and recently on a Windows PC and went back to Epson ABW.
The big difference is the driver. On the PC it is the poorly (if at all) maintained QTR-Gui. That produced posterization in some pictures withgradients in bright highlights. In ABW, the same pictures printed flawlessly.
I never had that problem with the Mac-based QTR software.
It didn't make me switch back to a Mac, though, because today I find the results from Epson ABW plenty good enough, especially with B&W ICC profiles.
All this on an R3000. On the Mac, at the time, I used piezo with Epson 1280 and R2400.
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... today I find the results from Epson ABW plenty good enough, especially with B&W ICC profiles.
Good for PC users but it is no longer possible to use B&W ICC profiles with Epson ABW on the Mac. PC only.
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I thought QTR was the same on both PC and Mac..
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It may well be, it's been a long time since I looked at it.
The 'PC only' was in regard to StephaneB's post on combining ICC profiles and Epson ABW (not QTR), under OS X
Edit:
In the OS X|Lightroom Print tab, under Colour management, you need to set it to 'Managed by Printer' in order to access the Epson ABW settings. There is , AFAIK, no workaround to allow you to use, for example, Eric Chan's 3800 ABW B&W ICC profiles.
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Thanks Ken
Yes, it appears that once you have got yourself organised with the correct items, the information regarding printing seems much easier to follow.
I placed my order this morning!
Thanks again to everyone who helped me!
William
Will,
As you've already found, getting started is tough due to unclear information from the Cone site. What you need to know, what you need to buy is scattered all about, mixed in with old information to boot. You'll also find that it doesn't get much better. For example, you may find that you want to use a printer profile that for a paper that inkjetmall recommends--and the link to it is broken. Then they suggest a different profile, made for a different printer. Then, a few months later, suggest a profile for a different paper for the same printer. A little confusing.
But once you get it working it seems to work well. I've been using it for less than six months and I'm o.k.
My discovery today--something worth noting--is that the inkjetmall inks don't seem to clog as much as OEM from sitting idle but will sometimes, inexplicably, sort of clog all at once. I'm starting to clean the heads more often, even mid-printing session. (This on a 3880).
--Darin