Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Computers & Peripherals => Topic started by: Chiotas on April 23, 2014, 08:05:39 am
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Hello guys!
I'm going to replace my Apple LED Cinema Display (old one, not thunderbolt) that I use for photo editing.
After some research, I narrowed down the choices to two products:
- LG's 27EA83: http://www.lg.com/uk/monitors/lg-27EA83
- ASUS's PA279Q: https://www.asus.com/Monitors_Projectors/PA279Q/
What do you think about those two monitors?
Do you have any other suggestion? (my budget is around 800/900 €)
Thank you so much!
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My general recommendation if you're on a budget (aren't we all?) is to go down in size and features, rather than compromise on general quality. Some manufacturers cut corners there, to be able to offer maximum features at minimum price. Panel uniformity is usually the first to go.
There are currently only two manufacturers who consistently and reliably deliver top quality: NEC and Eizo.
With that budget you could get an NEC PA242 with SpectraviewII hardware calibration, if you ordered it from B&H in New York (not counting shipping and VAT, though). I'm not saying that's the only option, just a possibility.
Whatever you choose, research calibration options and factor that in. That's crucial. Hardware calibration, adjusting directly to the monitor's high-bit internal LUT, is vastly better than the standard 8-bit calibration to the video card.
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Dear Fosse,
thank you so much for such useful reply.
In my research I honestly didn't consider NEC as an option..my fault!
The only problem is that I think it is not so easy to find available in Italy, or at least in Europe.
Anyway, just two (probably stupid) questions:
- Am I wrong or also the mentioned ASUS and LG have an hardware calibration?
- I have a Spyder4 Elite calibration tool..is it garbage?
Thank you!
Francesco
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From what I can see it seems the LG does. But I can't speak for the quality of LG's software. I think I heard that Asus has it too, but I don't see any mention of it on the site you linked to.
No, the Spyder isn't garbage. It used to be (hence the bad reputation), but the 3 and 4 edition sensors are very good. Just make sure that the sensor is supported in the Asus/LG(?) software.
See if you can stretch the budget a little for an NEC or Eizo. It hurts now, yes, but pays off in the long run...
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Just make sure that the sensor is supported in the Asus/LG(?) software.
See if you can stretch the budget a little for an NEC or Eizo. It hurts now, yes, but pays off in the long run...
The monitors must have an addressable LUT, that's not software. Software comes with the sensor or you can use ArgyllCMS which is freeware to calibrate the monitor. Agree that if the OP can get a NEC, that's the way to go. Base colors in a NEC are outstanding.
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In my research I honestly didn't consider NEC as an option..my fault!
You really should. The display is so important in the digital darkroom. I agree that going smaller but better is the best approach if you are on a budget (just ask my wife :o).
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Dear friends,
thank you so much for your very useful suggestions!!
Fosse, you were right. After a research I found that AUSUS don't have hardware calibration as a feature.
ANyway now I'm seriously considering to buy a NEC! THANK YOU!
The only point is that I'm not able to find a good reseller. Do you have any suggestion for purchasing it in Europe?
NEC website too allows purchases only from US :(
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It's true, NEC have made themselves thoroughly aloof and inaccessible in Europe - they can be bought, but you have to look for them. I just complained about this in another thread (and ended up with an Eizo instead).
One option is B&H in New York. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_NEC&ci=6559&N=4042375307+4291324108 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_NEC&ci=6559&N=4042375307+4291324108) They ship around the world and prices are good, but you have to allow for shipping cost, customs and VAT, so it'll probably end up at the same price as locally. However the most excellent Spectraview II calibration software is only available in the US (for some incomprehensible reason), so you'd have to get it there anyway.
The Spectraview software available in Europe isn't nearly as good, and only sold bundled with a special line of Spectraview-branded displays, at a 50% price markup. That's a very expensive solution that I wouldn't recommend, you'd get more value with an Eizo.
So there are complications, which is too bad, because a NEC PA coupled with Spectraview II software is an unbeatable combination in terms of price/performance.
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As for the size / quality ratio: A while ago I bought an NEC P232 locally (Norway), and the SVII software from B&H. That's a 23 inch standard gamut model, nothing fancy. For that money I could have bought a 27 inch wide gamut Dell U2714H, but there was never a doubt in my mind what I wanted. I've had a Dell U-series in my house before, and the thing was such a piece of cr*p that I just returned it immediately and demanded my money back. Which they wouldn't do, even though there was about 1000K difference in color temperature from one side of the screen to the other. That's what you risk with the cheaper brands.
The little NEC has served me well, until now I finally had the opportunity to get a bigger Eizo (but only because the money was suddenly available).
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Colour confidence (http://shop.colourconfidence.com/section.php/10172/1/nec) a retailer in the UK carry NEC monitors . Might be worth checking them out.
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You are right Fosse!
I found the official retailer in Italy...for the PA272 SV (so the 27" with SpectraViewII) they ask for $ 2.830,00
If I buy the same product on B&H, considering 250& of shipping and 300$ of taxes, it will cost around $1,800,00
THIS IS MADNESS.
Now I'll chek the link provided by David (thank you!)..if the price range is similar to Italy, I'll open a B&H account :D
EDIT: In Italy I'm able to find at the same price an Eizo CX 270 (probably due to the 500 $ of shipping and taxes). Do you believe that I shoud move to this one? Ok, now I'm extremely confused ;)
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Welcome to the crazy world of NEC Display Solutions ;)
In US you can buy NEC PA272W and a calibration kit which includes a NEC Spectrasensor, and NEC Spectraview II software. There's no NEC Spectraview Reference 272 version, which is european "invention".
In EU you can buy NEC PA272W, NEC Spectraview 272 and NEC Spectraview Reference 272 ;D Spectraview has internal license that allows hardware calibration with european NEC Spectraview Profiler software, Spectraview Reference has the same license, a hood, additional certificate of awesomeness, and better warranty.
My advise is to get PA272W (http://shop.colourconfidence.com/product.php/5013/nec-pa272w-black-led-monitor) and use NEC Multiprofiler software to calibrate it without external sensor.
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Multiprofiler should work well, I never really got into it. But the most important part, measuring the primaries, is already done at the factory and written to a chip in the monitor, which Multiprofiler reads. So that gets you a long way.
Anyway, with all the European NEC idiosyncrasies, Eizo is certainly a more hassle-free option. And between SV <> SV Reference not much more expensive. But if you can get the SV II software from US, and a display from, well, anywhere, the combo is great.
Now if you'll all excuse me, my CG246 just arrived (that was fast) and is still sitting in its box. Now I'm dying to find out if it's any good ;D (and how ColorNavigator works compared to SV II).
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Thank you so much Czornyj!
I finally understood why I wasn't able to find the US model in EU! (thank you NEC... :-\)
Anyway, it is quite clear that the price of a NEC PA272 + SpectraViewII in Europe is quite hight compared to US, and so now I found that the Eizo CX270 is cheaper than NEC PA272 + SpectraViewII!
Is NEC PA272 really a better choice that an Eizo CX270?
Sorry foir this messy post guys, but thank you so much because without you I would have already spent a lot of money for a mediocre product.
Enjoy your CG246 Fosse!! :D
THANK YOU!
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Actually, you can't buy Spectraview II in EU - it's only available in US ;) Question is if you really need calibration solution - Multiprofiler works very well with PA-series display.
CX270 is an old WG CCFL backlight technology with heavy matt diffuser, so I strongly recommend PA272W which features GBr LED backlight with 2D brightness control (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=83820.msg699341#msg699341) and satin diffuser. The equivalent of NEC PA272W is EIZO CX271/CG277.
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Thanks for the CX advice!
Ok, so I bleieve that the best solution is tu buy directly from US and importing the NEC in US version:
http://www.amazon.com/PA272W-BK-SV-2560-1440-1000-SpectraViewII/dp/B00FLTTLQ4/ref=lh_ni_t?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A17MC6HOH9AVE6
The price is more convenient than the EU version even if I add taxes and custom duties :D
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Ok, so I bleieve that the best solution is tu buy directly from US and importing the NEC in US version
That is the simplest way, yes. The unit will probably be on Italian soil within a day or two, and then probably a couple of days through customs. After delivery you'll get an invoice for customs and VAT, no fuss.
Anyway, the Eizo is up and running. This display means business, that's for sure. So far I can't find anything that is less than absolute perfection. ColorNavigator is intuitive, fast and with all the options I could need. Not sure I can ever bring myself to trust that little...thingie...that pops up from the bezel with a little whirring sound, though, but I still have my i1 Display 3 sensor and have been using that for now.
Is it worth the price? As things stand, absolutely. But if PA242 was available here, with the SV II software, and at a price level corresponding with the US price level, I might reconsider.
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Welcome to the crazy world of NEC Display Solutions ;)
Indeed and it's such a mess we the community need to find a way to get the big, big shots at NEC to look at this and fix it. I know for a fact the US folks at NEC are equally frustrated by these limitations. This is a company that makes some great products but apparently hasn't a clue how to get the product to their audience. For example, years ago, you could not even buy an electronic download of SpectraView in the US. You had to buy then wait on a physical CD. Then they ran out and people were waiting awhile for stinkin software as NEC pressed CDs. This wasn't that long ago, not in the 90's when downloading software was a novel idea. WTF were they thinking? Fortunately we can now purchase and download the software. Why not in Europe? Insanity. They could up their sales.
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Well, you can't say they're not up to date now ;D
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Dear friends, last crazy question before ordering my NEC PA272W :D
Do you thin that is possible to use together a NEC PA272W European version (NEITHER SpectraView NOR Spectraview Reference...the "standard one") and the purchasing the US kit for SpectraviewII to use with it?
I read some conflicting opinions on the net..and I would not be so surprised if not possible as NEC consider EU and US two different planets..
I'm wondering that because I found that the warranty for US version in valid ONLY in North America ( :-X ) so I believe that is not so convenient to purchase the monitor outside Europe..
I really hope that this NEC is epic as you say guys, it is making me really suffer :D
Thanks again!
Francesco
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Do you thin that is possible to use together a NEC PA272W European version (NEITHER SpectraView NOR Spectraview Reference...the "standard one") and the purchasing the US kit for SpectraviewII to use with it?
Sure, that what many european NEC users do - as you can see in the above example of D Fosse BTW.
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Indeed and it's such a mess we the community need to find a way to get the big, big shots at NEC to look at this and fix it. I know for a fact the US folks at NEC are equally frustrated by these limitations.
That's not a bad idea - EU users are frustrated by the fact they have to pay more for inferior software, and have no upgrade option of PA series (other than getting the Spectraview II software from US).
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I really hope that this NEC is epic as you say guys, it is making me really suffer :D
The pain will go away, but the reward is lasting. Do it.
I'm a case in point. I've spent the last couple of years buying reasonably good monitors - but was never entirely happy with any of them. No more. Now I want the real deal.
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So, the EU version of Spectraview II is different from the US one????
I really want to purchase the PA272 EU version, but I would like to be sure there is not any "block" on the Spectraview II US edition
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Again - there's european "Spectraview Profiler v5.3" software, and US "Spectraview II v1.1.16.2" software.
European PA-series have blocked full hardware calibration option in european Spectraview Profiler software, which only works with NEC Spectraview and Spectraview Reference series displays. US Spectraview II supports all PA-series display, no matter where they came from. Quite insane - isn't it? ;D
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Not sure I can ever bring myself to trust that little...thingie...that pops up from the bezel with a little whirring sound, though, but I still have my i1 Display 3 sensor and have been using that for now.
This "little thingie" is Konica-Minolta colorimeter. Chances are it's more accurate than i1D3 on CG246.
In Spectraview II there's a very precise spectral calibration of NEC PA242W done by X-Rite for i1D3 with Konica-Minolta CS-1000 spectroradiometer, but CG246's ColorNavigator works only with generic "RG Phosphor" i1D3 calibration, which was taken from infamous Dell U2413 and doesn't necessarily match EIZO PLS G-Br backlight spectra. Samsung cheaped out of PLS backlight, and only covered B LED with R phosphor, so the display spectra is a bit different and gamut is a tiny bit smaller than in case of LG AH-IPS GBr LED in NEC PAxx2 series. That's probably the reason why they had to put a fan inside ;)
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OK, I'll try to digest that overnight. Might try the thingie tomorrow.
Do you know for a fact that they use a PLS panel? According to a prad.de review I read Eizo won't say. But I notice that it doesn't have the IPS white glow that I notice on the P232, it's really black from even extreme angles.
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CG246 has Samsung LTM240CL02-N01 panel - PLS with G-Br backlight, satin diffuser, without 2D brightness control (as far as my measurements were correct). It features OCF, so the light leaking is significantly reduced - unless it has edge bleeding issues, usually in the right upper corner:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19059944/CX240vsPA242W.jpg)
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I have the PA242W with Spectraview II (SVII) and live in the US. "Powered by X-rite" is stamped on the sensor and on the instruction manual that came with the SVII. Not sure who produced the software that drive the NEC monitor. Maybe there's some agreement between NEC and X-rite about distributing competing systems in Europe. That may be why there are different models for the US and Europe.
In any case, why don't you put your mind to rest and phone NEC here in the US and confirm all your concerns. Ask them what's up and what will happen. I've spoken to their tech people about other things. They seem to be very up front with their answers.
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Well, you can't say they're not up to date now ;D
Never used the SVII software memory that came with the software. I had called NEC to check some things with their techs regarding cables and installing the software and setting it up. They gave me the link to their latest SVII software which I downloaded and installed. I still needed the product code though to make it work.
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Again - there's european "Spectraview Profiler v5.3" software, and US "Spectraview II v1.1.16.2" software.
European PA-series have blocked full hardware calibration option in european Spectraview Profiler software, which only works with NEC Spectraview and Spectraview Reference series displays. US Spectraview II supports all PA-series display, no matter where they came from. Quite insane - isn't it? ;D
EPIC!
Ok, I'll place my order for the PA272W from a locale EU vendor and the SpecraviewII from B&H!
Thank you guys!
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CG246 has Samsung LTM240CL02-N01 panel - PLS with G-Br backlight, satin diffuser, without 2D brightness control (as far as my measurements were correct). It features OCF, so the light leaking is significantly reduced - unless it has edge bleeding issues, usually in the right upper corner
What's OCF?
I've done a few calibration runs with the internal sensor vs. the i1D3, and there is a barely perceptible difference in overall gray balance. I can't say that one is more "correct" than the other, just different shades of neutral. But the beauty is that if I should decide to prefer the external sensor, the internal one can be correlated to match. Nice.
All in all I'm very impressed with ColorNavigator. It's very logically structured and well thought out, every bit as good as SVII.
About the display itself there really isn't anything to say. It simply disappears - poof - from the whole equation. Only the fan is left, like the Cheshire cat grin... ;)
...just kidding. On my machine, right next to it, the motherboard alone has six fans, each of which makes more noise than the one in the Eizo. The CPU is water-cooled, but it wouldn't make any difference if it wasn't.
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OCF stands for Optical Compensation Film, which in case of CG246 is retardation film.
i1D3 has dichroic filters with near perfect CIE colour matching functions, so even if the spectral calibration is not perfect it's not a tragedy - the visual effect shouldn't vary too much. You'd need a reference spectroradiometer to check which one works better (it doesn't really matter in real world applications). If you're inquisitive, you may search for ISF certified calibrator in your area and ask him if has some JETI Specbos, Photo Research 6xx-7xx or Konica-Minolta CS spectroradiometer, they tend to have such (expensive) toys.
As for ColorNavigator - check Preferences>Measurement device>Compensation table: Multiple monitor matching function. CG246 backlight is prone to observer metamerism, so after calibration you may perceive it as "greenish", but you may get rid of that by changing the default compensation table (that changes CMF from CIE 1931 2° to CIE 1964 10°).
Note that CN creates LUT TRC with measured black value reflected in the shape of curve. If it will cause some problems, you may change it while creating calibration target (Customize profile>Profile policy> change Tone curve: from LUT (recommended) to gamma value (http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/gamma.html)
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Ok, I'll place my order for the PA272W from a locale EU vendor and the SpecraviewII from B&H!
Very wise choice, you'll gonna love PA272W ;)
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OCF stands for Optical Compensation Film, which in case of CG246 is retardation film.
Ah, that makes sense. Aside from gamut, the most striking aspect of the CG246 versus the P232 (yes, I know that's an unfair comparison), is the total absence of the IPS off-angle white glow - which, truth be told, is very pronounced on the P232.
As for ColorNavigator - check Preferences>Measurement device>Compensation table: Multiple monitor matching function. CG246 backlight is prone to observer metamerism, so after calibration you may perceive it as "greenish", but you may get rid of that by changing the default compensation table (that changes CMF from CIE 1931 2° to CIE 1964 10°).
I'll try that. If pressed to describe the difference between the two sensors, greenish is the word I'd use for the internal sensor, but as I said it's only a slight hint, nothing dramatic.
Actually I saw the very same thing with my old EasyPix-calibrated Flexscan, using the Eizo-branded Spyder3 sensor. I just compensated by moving the white point a tad towards magenta and didn't think much more of it. In practice it doesn't matter much and color reproduction as such isn't really affected.
Maybe Eizo's idea of neutral just happens to be a little greener than mine? That's almost how it looks. Come to think of it I also have an Eizo Foris (that I haven't used for a while), and I think that was a little greenish too. I used the same EasyPix/EX-1 calibration for that.
Anyway, thanks for the tips -
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In case of Spyder3 it's impossible to draw any conclusions. It's too imprecise and there's too much inter instrument variation, as an effect it's more or less a lottery.
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/MonitorCalibrationHardware.html
Apart from that, it's definitely not Eizo's "idea of neutrality" - it's a more common problem:
http://mysite.verizon.net/rajeevramanath/Research/observerMetamerism-CRA-09.pdf
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No argument, just puzzling. Anyway I've never seen it with the i1D3, with any display or any calibrator.
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Dear friends,
I finally placed my order for the PA272W from a local reseller and for the SpectraViewII from B&H :)
I really can't wait to receive everything :D
I started to study both PA272W and SpecraviewII manuals, and I have those two (stupid) question:
- Is there any difference (resolution/quality) connecting the monitor to my computer (MacBook Pro retina) through miniDisplay instead of HDMI?
- Is there a "right" way to calibrate the monitor through SpectraViewII? After reading the manual, it seems that everything is automated and the only thing to do is to press "Calibrate" button after selecting a "Target" from the list..(is that an Hardware calibration??)
Honestly, I'm not sure to getting the difference between hardware and software calibration. I mean, I know that hardware calibration should act on the LTU, but it is not clear if I do that pressin "calibration" button or I have to do with the "Update Internal Calibration window"
As far as I understand, "Calibration" button do the software calibration and create de ICC profile, the with the "Update Internal Calibration window" I load the created ICC in the LTU..is it correct.
Sorry if I wrote any blasphemy :D
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Hardware calibration means adjusting the monitor in its internal circuitry, in high-bit precision. For this to work the software needs to communicate directly with the monitor.
Software calibration means doing the same adjustments in the video card. This is an 8-bit pipeline with restricted precision, and the net result is often color/luminance banding, and other artifacts.
The icc profile is independent of this. That's a complete and detailed description of the monitor's response in its now calibrated state. The profile doesn't adjust anything, it just describes - but it can describe many more parameters than what can be corrected during calibration, so it takes accuracy to a higher level. The profile is only used in a color managed environment, however.
When you calibrate you need to set the targets - white point temperature and luminance, contrast range and gamma. The main purpose is to match screen to output. For instance, you want monitor white to be a visual equivalent to paper white. You need to experiment a little to find the right values, but start out with 6500K, 120 cd/m2, and contrast 350:1 (or thereabouts). Gamma should just be close to native (2.2). It'll be remapped in a color managed environment and you won't see any difference with different gamma values - outside color management you will see a difference and 2.2 is the general standard.
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Thanks for the great info in this thread, it's cleared up a lot of questions I had.
Chiotas, how did you get on with your NEC PA272W and SpectraViewII calibration pack?
I'm in the UK and was going for either a NEC SpectraView 272 (Part Number 60003546) or an Eizo CX271 but am very interested to hear how the NEC PA272W and SpectraViewII pack performs.
NEC really do need to sort out their model line-up. I was really confused why I couldn't get certain products in Europe.
Thanks,
Mark.
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but am very interested to hear how the NEC PA272W and SpectraViewII pack performs.
To make long story short - go for it!
SpectraView II performs better with PAxx2 series than SpectraView Profiler - it makes better use of internal SpectraView engine and has more precise spectral calibration for X-Rite i1Display Pro and NEC SpectraSensor Pro.
Another advantage of SpectraView II is that it copes well with excellent NEC Multiprofiler software, that might be very useful in many cases. Last but not least - you can use SpectraView II to calibrate virtually all newer NEC EA-series panels, which are more affordable, and as such might be appealing for multiple monitor setup, where - for example - you use PA272W as a main, colour critical workhorse, and EA274WMi as additional display, etc.
Lately I've found this shop in DE who has SpectraView II in offer - seems like it's getting popular in EU:
http://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/MainSearchProductCategory.html?q=spectraview+II
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Hi Mark,
I finally bought the NEC PA272W "European Version" and I bought the Spectraview II software (the "USA software") that I use with my Spyder4.
Everything works perfectly!
I sugest you to buy the 272W..I'm more than happy!
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Hi Chiotas,
First, congratulation for the website! it is simply amazing! :)
I'm going to follow your road, i'll buy the Pa272W locally (UK) and the spectraview2 software from BH USA. DO you have any update on this combo?
Thanks again
Giorgio
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Ciao Giorgio!
the combo 272 EU + SW2 USA is working PERFECTLY.
I coul not be more happy and satisfied.
Now the calibration is extremely accurate, and my print too!
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Hello guys!
I'm going to replace my Apple LED Cinema Display (old one, not thunderbolt) that I use for photo editing.
After some research, I narrowed down the choices to two products:
- LG's 27EA83: http://www.lg.com/uk/monitors/lg-27EA83
- ASUS's PA279Q: https://www.asus.com/Monitors_Projectors/PA279Q/
What do you think about those two monitors?
Do you have any other suggestion? (my budget is around 800/900 €)
Thank you so much!
I agree with most of the people here 4K not ready for prime time. Eizo will have a CG (the do have 4K medical and aviation monitors this is a CG)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3aVavJ8op4
Best regards,
J. Duncan