Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: uintaangler on March 30, 2014, 01:17:49 am
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I have seen some stunning Landscape images in galleries that are printed on metal and I am wondering how the heck can somebody make a print on metal?
Is this done with special printers or can anybody make a metal print using a high-end wide format printer?
Thanks.
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I have a friend who does this. I haven't got around to quizzing him on the process but it looks very good. Apparently archival ink on aluminium: http://www.gregorrohrig.com/aluminium (http://www.gregorrohrig.com/aluminium)
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Scroll down a bit and you'll see a couple of long threads about this.
Although some people do print directly on metal, most of the prints are made with dye sublimation inks. You replace your regular ink set with dye sub inks and then hot press the image onto the metal. I'm currently converting an Epson 4880 for this purpose.
The expensive part of this process isn't the printer, it's the heat press. Large heat presses are around $10,000.
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The most common method of "printing" on metal is actually a 2 step process. The image is first printed using special inks call sublimation dye inks. The image is printed on a special type of paper known as heat transfer paper. Once the image is printed on this paper, the paper is applied to a sheet of metal that has a polyester coating on it that allows the ink to absorb into the metal substrate using a heat press at around 360 - 400 degrees fahrenheit.
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So it sounds to me that if I want to see one of my images printed on metal - I'll be sending it out to a specialty printer.
Any recommendations?
Thanks,
Bob
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Bay Photo (West Coast near Santa Cruz, CA) is the one I send stuff too for metals. They even frame them up for you a lot cheaper than local framers do too. Their shipping carton is pretty nice too with the framed ones. You do need to use their ROES online (Downloadable software) to send them the images.
SG
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Bob I own a metal printing lab here in South Florida. If you want I can send you one free of charge. Just pm me your address and a link to your file.
Will
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Will,
The 12 x 18 arrived today and it looks great!
Thanks,
Bob
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I have a friend who does this. I haven't got around to quizzing him on the process but it looks very good. Apparently archival ink on aluminium: http://www.gregorrohrig.com/aluminium (http://www.gregorrohrig.com/aluminium)
Not sure dye sub inks for this process can be labeled “archival”. They are not the same inks, and longevity, while better than silver halide processes, are not long lasting in the same sense that we normally rate current pigment inkjet processes.
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I also have a lab that prints on metal and I will tell you that it is not as easy as you might think. I personally have not been able to use a canned profile from any of the distributors and the metal manufacture is not handing out profiles either. The biggest issue is whether the company printing can reproduce the colors you are expecting, with the hardest colors to reproduce being yellows and greens.
Something to keep in mind if you are printing to the clear coated metal or having somebody produce a print for you on the clear metal is not to expect a high level of saturation. The aluminum reflecting through the ink saps a lot of the saturation out of the print.
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bgphoto. Where are you getting your ink from? I know sawgrass does provide profiles when you order from them.
Your are spot on about the clear aluminum. Also, taking a picture of it is impossible for me. Its way too reflective. Its something that your customer needs to know what they are ordering otherwise I can see some being disappointed.
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I printing on an Epson 9800 with JTech ink.
Any company that is doing large format Aluminum has there own profiles built because they are generally using a commercial grade RIP instead of the Sawgrass Power Driver.
Setting up to print on metal has been very rewarding and at times very challenging.
Ben
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.... The biggest issue is whether the company printing can reproduce the colors you are expecting, with the hardest colors to reproduce being yellows and greens.
I find this true coming from BayPhoto who uses the Chromalux dye-transfer method (I believe?). Yellowish/orange skin tones can be a bit problematic and maybe due to the CMYK inkset used in the dye-transfer?
I wasn't keen on the pure aluminum showing through as it did appear to desaturate the image as mentioned elsewhere. The Gloss White seems to be best for the process (They do 4 different metal surfaces: Two satins, and two whites. Only difference is the white sub-layer or not.
Might be able to get a wider and better gamut if one were to print directly on the gloss white pre-prepped metal from a 8-12 ink printer, but that is an expensive plate to try too.
SG
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I went from a straight cmyk inkset to a cmky plus light inks and it improved my output tremendously. I can for certain say that my skin tones are pretty good. The key is to remember this metal has a slight warm tone in the white coating. If you compare it to an Epson Premium Luster paper you will see the slight warmth in the coating.
I also have found that the best prints come from the Glossy White product. People just find the image to have a look of no other medium on the market right now. Colors pop off the surface and the print almost looks three dimensional.
I don't think printing directly on the metal would give the same result. I have seen direct printed metal and it just does not have the depth or pop. Almost everyone who sees the white gloss prints have the same reaction: WOW!
Ben
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I went from a straight cmyk inkset to a cmky plus light inks and it improved my output tremendously. I can for certain say that my skin tones are pretty good. The key is to remember this metal has a slight warm tone in the white coating. If you compare it to an Epson Premium Luster paper you will see the slight warmth in the coating.
I also have found that the best prints come from the Glossy White product. People just find the image to have a look of no other medium on the market right now. Colors pop off the surface and the print almost looks three dimensional.
I don't think printing directly on the metal would give the same result. I have seen direct printed metal and it just does not have the depth or pop. Almost everyone who sees the white gloss prints have the same reaction: WOW!
Ben
Have you tried printing directly on metal (or any other ultra-smooth surface), then coating it with a high-gloss coating? If coated properly (e.g. with polyurethane-based car lacquer) it should be just as glossy as a dye-sub print, with a better colour gamut.
It's not the metal that gives metal prints their appearance - it's the ultra-smooth surface and the high gloss finish.
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I can't say that I have tried a direct print and then coating with any form of car lacquer. It seems that the problem with the lacquer would be consistency, drying time and fumes. Of course dye sublimation has fumes but I don't think they would be anything like lacquer.
I may be off base because I have not ever used lacquer.
One other point, in order to print directly on a metal surface you would require either a white coating before printing or a printer that has white ink, unless you are looking for a metal look like the clear that we do.
Finally, as far as I know a profile cannot be properly created for the clear metal.
Ben
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I can't say that I have tried a direct print and then coating with any form of car lacquer. It seems that the problem with the lacquer would be consistency, drying time and fumes. Of course dye sublimation has fumes but I don't think they would be anything like lacquer.
I may be off base because I have not ever used lacquer.
One other point, in order to print directly on a metal surface you would require either a white coating before printing or a printer that has white ink, unless you are looking for a metal look like the clear that we do.
Finally, as far as I know a profile cannot be properly created for the clear metal.
Ben
Or you could use a sheet of white 'anodised' aluminium or titanium as the base (not really 'anodised', but a different process that produces the same kind of surface, since it's not actually possible to achieve white by anodising).
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I am wondering how the heck can somebody make a print on metal?
I just posted a blog post with a short video that shows a UV Curable printer printing on white aluminum dibond you might find interesting. http://www.on-sight.com/what-my-days-look-like-as-a-consultant/
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One other point, in order to print directly on a metal surface you would require either a white coating before printing or a printer that has white ink, unless you are looking for a metal look like the clear that we do.
Ben
Booksmart has a half dozen different metal finishes white being one of them.
You can also coat your own metal with Inkaids Iridescent gloss pre coat colors, the pearl being my favorite.
Be careful of your solvent topcoat or you will end up with a crackled finish like this.
Unless the ink is absolutely dry that is what can happen. Black inks are the slowest to dry and can take 2 to 3 days before they are really dry to topcoat.
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When I first got into this industry I wanted to have the absolute best setup for producing the highest quality metal prints.
I knew my 2 options were either a sublimation setup or a UV flatbed printer.
What I did was I ordered metal prints from all the top online companies that offer sublimation prints and UV Flatbed prints. I honestly wanted to go with the flatbed option and was ready to invest close to $200k on one.
I liked the ability to be able to print on just about any surface and it didnt require a special coating. Where with sublimation, the metal needs to have a polyester based coating to absorb the ink.
When I received the prints, the sublimation metal prints were by far better than the UV printed prints. I ordered both clear finish and white gloss finish from a half dozen companies in total.
There is a reason why the top metal print companies all use sublimation for their prints. The results are superior.
If you're going to get into a business you owe it to yourself to do it the right way.
The very first method I read about was the booksmart blanks and using inkaid. I discovered that from finding LL in my google searches and from what I read on here, its extremely difficult, time consuming and expensive to go down that path. I didnt try it myself, but based on what I read up on these very forums, the inkaid option just doesnt cut it for professional metal prints.
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There is a reason why the top metal print companies all use sublimation for their prints. The results are superior.
If you're going to get into a business you owe it to yourself to do it the right way.
The very first method I read about was the booksmart blanks and using inkaid. I discovered that from finding LL in my google searches and from what I read on here, its extremely difficult, time consuming and expensive to go down that path. I didnt try it myself, but based on what I read up on these very forums, the inkaid option just doesnt cut it for professional metal prints.
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There is a reason why the top metal print companies all use sublimation for their prints. The results are superior.
That may have been the case back when you did your tests but UV tech has come a long way just in the last two years. I wouldn't have considered UV for artwork 2+ years ago. Believe me, I work the top companies with start of the art equipment - did you follow the link I posted earlier? A $900,000 Vutek HS100Pro makes really nice prints on metal - gotta see it to believe it. And the Evo 33 DS makes the best sublimation prints I've seen as well. HPI has these printers side-by-side and I've calibrated them both and I like them both. When it comes to prints larger than 30x40 I like the stiff flat materials we can run though the UV machine.
I guess it's not fair to say one is better than the other. They each have a unique look to them. But most places use sublimation on metal because they can't afford the best UV printers out there. Very few people have seen top notch UV prints with super sharp 2 point type.
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Scott what you say may very well be true. I dont doubt the fact that a million dollar machine can produce the absolute best results, as it should. The thing is, I dont think there are many companies that have the means to invest in a million dollar printer.
Even if you can afford a million dollar printer, that is only a part of the equation. You have to factor in the price of the inks (I assume a million dollar printer is going to use mighty expensive inks) and the metal you use. The most popular and by far best metal substrate is gloss white coated aluminum, You will still have to pay a premium for a premium substrate.
Combine all of those things together and you will not be able to be competitive in the metal printing business. You simply will not be able to offer prints at a reasonable enough cost to compete with all the other companies that offer high quality metal prints.
While I believe that there is always something better out there....right now that kind of cost and ongoing expense doesn't make sense in this market.
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I have a hard time understanding this.
The most popular and by far best metal substrate is gloss white coated aluminum, You will still have to pay a premium for a premium substrate.
If the surface to be printed is finish in white gloss, and therefore the color of the metal is not visible anymore, why does it make a difference if it is metal, or wood or any other kind of hard board?
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(I assume a million dollar printer is going to use mighty expensive inks) and the metal you use.
No! UV Curable inks are several orders of magnitude more affordable than aqueous, latex, solvent and especially sublimation inks.
The most popular and by far best metal substrate is gloss white coated aluminum, You will still have to pay a premium for a premium substrate.
It's not bad in bulk and there's a one sided version that shockingly affordable. 4x8 and 5x10 foot sheets only.
Combine all of those things together and you will not be able to be competitive in the metal printing business.
Actually, the insane speed and low cost of the ink is what makes UV Curable printing so competitive, when the volume is there to support it. You might instead ask how one can use expensive sublimation inks on a slow printer and compete?
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I have a hard time understanding this.
The most popular and by far best metal substrate is gloss white coated aluminum, You will still have to pay a premium for a premium substrate.
If the surface to be printed is finish in white gloss, and therefore the color of the metal is not visible anymore, why does it make a difference if it is metal, or wood or any other kind of hard board?
To answer your question it doesn't except the white Chromaluxe metal beats the other clear aluminum coated products by a long shot. You can only buy certain products with the dye sub coating.
We are talking dye sub metal here.(I think.) You can also buy Unisub wood panels coated with the same polyester white coating.
In my opinion the coated wood does not have the same look as the white metal. (Not as smooth.)
We also do Dye Sub Metals and the Chromaluxe clear metals are very nice with the right image but still do not have the pop that the white has.
Have you ever seen these?
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When talking about Inkjet [or UV Flatbed] direct to metal. Both will work.
With UV Vutek, the ink will sit on top of and cover the shine of reflective surfaces. Defeating the point.
But MOST importantly the Gamut of Sublimation trumps them all. And that is what I believe to be the Big Wow Factor of Sublimation printing.
Now if you add the smooth gloss white metal surface under that extreme gamut; that's a double WOW!
In a Grand Format Printing environment, it's the Gamut and Saturation of the sublimation prints that always gets the heads turning... Nothing else looks like it. All the others are LARGE, SUPER LARGE and Wonderful in all of their splendor. But the color range is so far exceeded with Sublimation, it stands out as unique over all others
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When talking about Inkjet [or UV Flatbed] direct to metal. Both will work.
With UV Vutek, the ink will sit on top of and cover the shine of reflective surfaces. Defeating the point.
That's what UV-curable laminates are for. You can make them as glossy as you like.
But MOST importantly the Gamut of Sublimation trumps them all. And that is what I believe to be the Big Wow Factor of Sublimation printing.
Actually, the gamut of aqueous inkjet significantly exceeds that of dye-sub transfer to metal. If you don't believe me, print an image containing lots of red, green or blue on inkjet and on dye-sub, then compare them.
Dye-sub metal's big advantage is the Cibachrome-like smooth surface and ultra-high gloss, which allows for very deep blacks. But inkjet can print a greater gamut and, so long as you have a smooth surface to print on and a high-gloss laminate, can create an image with just as much impact.
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I have to say that the gamut for sublimating on Chromaluxe brand metal is extremely good. What seems to make a tremendous amount of difference is the Profile used to create the transfer along with whether the company printing these panels uses a 4 or 8 ink process.
As far as UV printing, the barrier for entry is cost of the machine not the inks. If you purchase a million dollar machine and the manufacturer gives you the ink for free you still have a long hard road to pay for the equipment and start making a profit. On the other hand if they were to give you the machine and you had to pay for the inks, think how much that ink would cost! And you still have to laminate the product in order to get the extremely high gloss of Chromaluxe panels.
Ben
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I have to say that the gamut for sublimating on Chromaluxe brand metal is extremely good. What seems to make a tremendous amount of difference is the Profile used to create the transfer...
Yes, the calibration and profile is huge and the quality of the profiles out there varies.
As far as UV printing, the barrier for entry is cost of the machine not the inks. If you purchase a million dollar machine and the manufacturer gives you the ink for free you still have a long hard road to pay for the equipment and start making a profit.
If the volume is there you know UV is the way to maximize the profits. And if your buying a million dollar machine you're probably just upgrading from a $700K machine that was a nice upgrade from the $400K machine you had before that. If you're in this cycle you've been making big bucks for a long time, managing monthly payments and know how a single, super fast, high quality machine can save you a lot of real estate and hassle over having tons of slower printers and how having the latest greatest machine gives you a quality edge over your competitors.
And you still have to laminate the product in order to get the extremely high gloss of Chromaluxe panels.
Yeah, the lamination is needed to get a decent DMax with UV. Chromaluxe is great. They are two different processes each with their own advantages and disadvantages. Chromalux is really nice in small to medium sizes and in a fine gallery context where the print will be cared for and you won't need to worry about surface scratching and the like. UV curable advantages become more present when you go really big (4x8 feet and larger) and/or present work in spaces where durability and extreme lastfastness are more of an issue. Touching a UV print and 'feeling' the image can be a really fun aspect to UV prints that people aren't accustomed to. That Chromaluxe/ Cibachome high gloss look sure can be nice!
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Scott I dont know. The very fact that the largest labs in America that could afford a multi million dollar machine all use sublimation tells me that sublimation is just the best way to do Metal Prints.
I mean look at BayPhoto. They make a killing on metal prints. There could easily afford any kind of equipment and what they offer are sublimated metal prints.
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I mean look at BayPhoto. They make a killing on metal prints.
I know! I've ordered a number of prints from BayPhoto and exhibited a number of Bay Photo prints in galleries. Their prints have flatness issues at 20x30 and larger sizes. And there are inconsistencies in smooth areas like skies that they admit is a weakness. Again, there are advantages and weaknesses to each process. I'm not saying one is better than another. I'm just saying that there's a world of possibilities beyond the common sublimation that so many here are familiar with.
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I wanted to join in on this talk.
I have a wall full of metal prints and made many of them myself.
I started making my own metal and wood prints back in 2009.
As a wedding and portrait photographer at the time i included a 11x14 metal print with each wedding package and then we would sell more after they got to see one of themselves in person.
After almost 15 years as a working photographer we sold the business and as part of moving my inks dried up in my back then Ricoh printer.
I have now got back into it and have a 13 inch Epson with Cobra ink that works great and i am about to buy a Epson 36 inch printer the T5000.
Metal prints i can say for sure they last and still look 100% like new from prints i have from 2009 and 2010. no fading no flaking or anything except i did bend one in moving.
I Printed my own up to 11x14 and i ordered out for larger sizes.
I have a few 16x20s, a 18x25 and a 24x36 and i have made and still have some on the wall square tiles in frames.
I used to love the glossy look of the metal prints but now i like the metal matte prints better i think the gloss is to much to shinny and the matte versions just look great with no extra shine.
I also printed T Shirts, towels and many other items.
I have been spending many days and hours doing testing on some new products i am working on and getting my colors right but i will be buying a RIP with my new system soon.
Why am i picking the T5000 printer
I have a 44 inch canon and i never print anything larger then 36 inch wide most of the time i print 24x36 prints using 24 inch paper so for the new printer for dye sub i can not see even using or needing a 44 inch wide printer.
So the T5000 is just right at 36 inch wide so i can gang print many small items when needed.
Price right now the T5000 is on sale for almost the same price of the T3000 24 inch printer so the T5000 is the better deal right now.
Also i would never want a 9890 as it uses a new pressure ink feed system so fitting it for a bulk ink system is much harder and harder to keep it running right any loss in pressure and it wont work right.
Print quality. The T5000 has 4 main colors but has a 5th extra photo black cart. You can load in a lighter dye sub black in that 5th area and using a rip make the printer print using the 5th color to be able to produce all the extra lighter brighter colors a 4 color system has problems with but with less cost vs a 6 or 8 color system.
The extra years of service plans cost less on the T5000 you can get 2 extra years for less then one year on the F series and using different inks you can save a lot.
In the end you could buy two T5000s for the price of one F series or replace a few print heads over time.
Dye sub ink i would stay away from Sawmill ink it is over priced and just not as good as other much less expensive brands.
The high price of dye sub inks and many things will end later this year when the patent runs out in Oct that Sawgrass has.
Soon after that we should expect to see a lot of new products come out all at a better price making dye sub items even current products i would expect to see a drop in price.
I have made some darn amazing looking Dye sub items over the years it is a fun thing to get into and customers love the end results..