Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: SeanLa on March 15, 2014, 10:38:12 pm
-
I had read that this display was near perfect from the factory and thought I could put off SVII and i1 Display Pro purchase for a bit.
My prints (Epson 3880) appear desaturated relative to the monitor in it's Adobe RGB mode. It's not even close.
Print result is the same for both Canson Baryta Photog. and Epson Premium Luster.
Has anyone had this experience with this monitor and found the SVII software resulting in a good print to display match that they could not get initially?
I've printed quite a bit with this printer without issue using other monitors.
-
Hi Sean welcome to LuLa.
There are a lot of potential gotcha's that can cause issues:
1. You do need to calibrate and profile your printer.
2. Most people do not adjust the luminance of the monitor appropriately - darker and flatter images result.
3. Are you softproofing - every paper has a Dmax that is much less than a monitor i.e. it cannot reflect the dynamic range of the projected image. almost every image needs a tweak in contrast prior to printing and some images need a lot more work in softproofing.
Your post doesn't give much detail so feel free to fill in the blanks.
Tony Jay
-
If you make a lot of changes in soft-proofing? What happens the when you change paper?..
Elo
-
Thanks Tony and elolaugesen.
Have used this printer prior to the NEC PA242W display very effectively.
@Tony
1. I'm using the canned profiles, Canson and Epson for the respective papers/printer. I found them to be very good and matched the display in the past.
2. Display lum is adj down to 105 cd/m2.
3. Softproofing in PS with paper simulation. Image is adj during softproofing in PS, file printed from LR.
Interested to hear if people found that SpectraView II software made the difference with this PA242W or a PA241W display in terms of print matching the display.
@elolaugesen - changed paper and see same result; desaturated.
-
Hi SeanLa
I haven't done the A-B test you asked for: I used SV s/w and the i1DisplayPro on my PA241W right from the start. I get what I consider to be an excellent match with my 3880 prints. The reputation of the NEC/Spectraview system was what drew me to it. It never occurred to me to use the monitor without using SV to profile it.
FWIW
Tim
-
Thanks Tim.
I'll post here whether SVII/i1Display Pro makes up the difference with this PA242W.
-
I use the nec 27 inch, with the spectraview software and idisplay everything is of course automated so you shouldn't need to worry about luminance etc
-
I had read that this display was near perfect from the factory and thought I could put off SVII and i1 Display Pro purchase for a bit.
My prints (Epson 3880) appear desaturated relative to the monitor in it's Adobe RGB mode. It's not even close.
It's all about setting the correct calibration targets for a visual match: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml
You need the software to do this precisely. You can try Multiprofiler first and might hit a match, if not, it's software and instrument time.
-
I use the nec 27 inch, with the spectraview software and idisplay everything is of course automated so you shouldn't need to worry about luminance etc
Hi Rob,
You are correct that good profiling software (with supported displays) will automatically adjust the luminance automatically but you still need to tell the software which luminance value you want it set to calibrate to for your editing/viewing environment.
Cheers,
Jay
-
From memory, you choose a setting at the start of setup to cover luminance - there's a generic recommended level for photography.
Apart from that though, the attraction of the nec system is that all further calibration is automatic ie. no need to change any settings on the monitor manually.
-
From memory, you choose a setting at the start of setup to cover luminance - there's a generic recommended level for photography.
Apart from that though, the attraction of the nec system is that all further calibration is automatic ie. no need to change any settings on the monitor manually.
Hi Rob,
The only issue I have with your post is the word "automatic", since you still have to open the software, set up the hardware and start the calibration. I assume what you mean is that the previous calibration "settings" will be displayed, so it's not necessary to do all of that each time. I usually run two calibrations each time, one at 5500K and another at 6500K. 5500K is used for printing and 6500K for viewing new files when necessary to see if they have been properly managed. I often use this to show customers how badly their display is set up, usually resulting in dark images due to a high Lum Level. I calibrate at 100cd/m2 and it's a good level for my printing workflow. I have older NEC 2690, a PA241 and a PA 271, all of which are calibrated. I also use the "lock out" setting in SV so that the display cannot be adjusted with the OSD. Generally I'm the only one using the display, but I take no chances. Since I do calibrate I of course have no use for the MultiProfiler.
Gary
-
From memory, you choose a setting at the start of setup to cover luminance - there's a generic recommended level for photography.
Apart from that though, the attraction of the nec system is that all further calibration is automatic ie. no need to change any settings on the monitor manually.
Hi Rob,
I think by default in the SpectraView II software is 140 cd/m2 for the recommended photo editing luminance. There are some that calibrate to this level and a lot that don't. The setting is ultimately determined by how bright your environment/viewing light is.
I do agree that the NEC system is wonderful. :)
Cheers,
Jay
-
I usually run two calibrations each time, one at 5500K and another at 6500K. 5500K is used for printing and 6500K for viewing new files when necessary to see if they have been properly managed.
I also use the "lock out" setting in SV so that the display cannot be adjusted with the OSD. Generally I'm the only one using the display, but I take no chances. Since I do calibrate I of course have no use for the MultiProfiler.
Gary
Gary,
Do you also create calibrations for the various papers you are using via the custom white target or just using the 5,500 (which from what I gather a lot of people prefer as a more accurate paper white)? Since it's so convenient to switch calibrations on the fly, it really can't hurt to create them since it's relatively quick to do. However, I also create calibrations with different contrast ratios for matte vs glossy so I suppose they all add up and recalibration time increases a little.
And yes. It's amazing what settings can get changed without notice during late night post processing or ummmm perhaps a cluttered desk? :)
Cheers,
Jay
-
Just make sure that if you change calibration, you have to quit and relaunch Photoshop / Lightroom. They need to load the correct profile at startup, the one that corresponds to the calibration targets. They won't do it on the fly.
-
Just make sure that if you change calibration, you have to quit and relaunch Photoshop / Lightroom. They need to load the correct profile at startup, the one that corresponds to the calibration targets. They won't do it on the fly.
Hey D,
Thanks for that tip, good to know! :)
Cheers,
Jay
-
I just installed a NEC PA242W and ran the SVII automatically to set up sRGB. It shows Maximum for Intensity; color gamut sRGB. I then switched to Photo Editing thinking that was Adobe RGB. It calibrated it to 140cd/m2 Specific setting. However, the color gamut says Native (Full) and the selection called Adobe RGB was not selected.
1. How do I set up for Adobe RGB?
2. What's my next step in getting to start printing? I have a Canon ip4600 inkjet. Frankly, I have no idea what's my next move.
3. Ambient measurement: it's recommended that it be around a certain amount. You can use the reverse cover on the puck to measure it? Where should it be when you edit your picture so they print OK, not light or dark? what about colors?
4. Can anyone recommend a link, or book, anything, that tells you what to do? Simply?
-
Alan, if you select Photo Editing then what you want, and get, is the full native gamut that the monitor is capable of.
As far as I am aware (I use NEC monitors and Spectraview software) while the gamut of these monitors approach the gamut of the AdobeRGB colourspace it is not identical to it.
As for the luminance set at 140 cd/m2 that is a factory default and may or may not be the right luminance for your editing environment.
My Luminance is set to 95 cd/m2 but my environment is a bit gloomy.
In general the biggest beginner printers mistake I know of is to have the luminance set way too high.
Try Andrew Rodney's website for lots of information about colour management.
(Use his name as a Google search term.)
Also this site is very useful as well: http://www.imagescience.com.au/pages/Colour-Management.html
Tony Jay
-
Tony: ok thanks. I read some of the linked site's papers. So if I understand this correctly, I should calibrate the colors and contrast and lighting based on the paper and printer I intend to use.
1. Is there a place I can get recommended settings for my Epson ip4600printer? Do you plug in its ICC in Lightroom LR5?
2. Which gamut should I select in SV2 when I edit the photo in LR5 for printing?
3. Should I use sRGB gamut when adjusting for posting on the internet?
4. Is there a easy way of adjusting for both printing and internet posting? Or do you have to start from scratch with different luminance settings?
-
1. Beats me, I don't use that printer. You need to setup the driver as you would in Photoshop or elsewhere for color management.
2. The largest gamut (native).
3. Soft proof to sRGB in LR, no need to futz with the display.
4. Yes, build more than one calibration target and switch when you need to.
Also, RTFM it's pretty good ;D
-
Andrew: I don't understand 3 and 4; they seem contradictory. 3. says soft proof to sRGB in LR, forget the display. But 4 says I should use a different calibration target. I'm confused.
-
Andrew: I don't understand 3 and 4; they seem contradictory. 3. says soft proof to sRGB in LR, forget the display. But 4 says I should use a different calibration target. I'm confused.
Soft proof shows you the output to either a print or sRGB (if the data isn't in sRGB). The soft proof only works correctly IF calibration is produced to result in a match. That's why SpectraView allows differing calibration targets that can be switched on-the-fly. And just because you soft proof or view sRGB data for the net, doesn't mean anyone else out there will see what you are viewing!
-
Hi Rob,
The only issue I have with your post is the word "automatic", since you still have to open the software, set up the hardware and start the calibration. I assume what you mean is that the previous calibration "settings" will be displayed, so it's not necessary to do all of that each time.
Gary
Hi Gary,
I'm just making the point for those who haven't played with one that with the NEC system the hardware/software calibration automatically adjusts the monitor ie. no user adjustments of monitor settings is required.
I've been using a calibrated system since my days with a 19inch Mitsubishi, but not with any particularly flash gear (Spyder Pro etc from 10 years plus ago) - so I'm used to having to change a lot of monitor settings as part of the calibration process.
NEC is pretty slick with the right Spyder/software calibration. The Eizo users out there I'm sure have it pretty easy as well.
Cheers,
Rob
P.S. Some interesting info in this thread that i personally still need to digest... :)
-
Off topic, but has anyone wearing glasses noticed an issue with this model PA242W?
When I turn my head slightly I see bright red/orange vertical lines or blue/green vertical lines on areas of the screen where there is a white to dark vertical (such as the edge of a browser window). It looks much like chromatic aberration.
Can see it without glasses on, but then it is very subtle.
Checking a Dell display now I see something similar with glasses on which is far more subtle (never noticed it before).
Wondering now if this is typical or a result of this particular panel being out of spec?
-
Off topic, but has anyone wearing glasses noticed an issue with this model PA242W?
Not seeing with or without glasses. I've got a special prescription just for viewing the display. Running a PA272W but don't recall seeing anything like you describe on the older PA271 or 3090.
-
Thanks Andrew.
May I ask if your special prescription is glass or polycarbonate optical plastic?
Sean
-
May I ask if your special prescription is glass or polycarbonate optical plastic?
Pretty sure plastic.
-
When I turn my head slightly I see bright red/orange vertical lines or blue/green vertical lines on areas of the screen where there is a white to dark vertical (such as the edge of a browser window). It looks much like chromatic aberration.
Do you have astigmatism?
-
I just got new glasses and notice similar stuff. The lens is smaller so the I'm guessing that the change in magnification is greater more quickly. I see the aberration you mention at the top and bottom of the lens but they disappear when I look directly at them in the middle of the glasses. I have an astigmatism and use polycarninate lenses but my last lenses only give this effect to a minor degree. I also saw it at the edge of a bank of snow against a darker background. Again, it's at the top and bottom of the lens not in the middle. The lens I breaking up the white light into a rainbow effect.
-
It's related to glasses for astigmatism, they cause chromatic aberration you're describing.
-
It's related to glasses for astigmatism, they cause chromatic aberration you're describing.
Odd, I suffer from astigmatism, maybe not much as I don't see this effect. When you say glasses for astigmatism, it means glass not plastic?
-
Odd, I suffer from astigmatism, maybe not much as I don't see this effect. When you say glasses for astigmatism, it means glass not plastic?
I'm not sure if the glasses were from glass or plastic, but here's the story.
My friend who also suffer from astigmatism bought PA272W and reported me it's completely broken, and has terrible chromatic aberrations in the corners, that make him sick after a couple of minutes of work. I was very intrigued, so went to check it - the problematic PA272W was perfect, overall all PAxx2 displays I saw are surprisingly flawless. Then I took his glasses and took a look at thru them from a certain distance (as I have no vision defects) - and I could easily observe the chromatic aberrations he and the others described, so the problem is 100% astigmatism related.
The strange thing was that he didn't have any similar problems with 27" W-LED iMac, nor WG-CCFL displays like NEC PA271W or EIZO CG, so it also has something to do with GBr-LED backlight of PAxx2 series. It's also possible that the issue occurs with specific type of glasses, as it was already mentioned in previous post.
-
It occurs with my PA242W also. You can see either red or blue along the line where black meets white - anywhere on the screen. However, it's only noticeable for me anyway when I look through the top or bottom of my glasses. It doesn't create that effect when I look through the middle of the lens where the distance for a computer screen is in focus. I'm using a variable focus lens so the top is for distance and the bottom is for reading. So the aberrations and coloring effect are in those areas. My lenses are polycarbonate not actual glass but I don't think that matters.
-
What I've been able to find out is that this isn't about astigmatism, but rather the eyeglass lens material. Lenses made of these materials for astigmatism may result in even more chromatic aberration - which may explain Czornyj's observation. There are a number of materials used that result in varying amounts of chromatic dispersion. If there is enough dispersion it is seen as chromatic aberration by the wearer.
The material with high CA is polycarbonate which is used because it can be made the thinnest. Some other plastics and types of glass produce less CA, but are thicker/less stylish.
The other part of this is the GBr-LED technology which seems to make the effect worse.
Here's a table of lens materials and 'ABBE values':
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/abbevalues.html
Interesting to see that CR-39 (Lee filters are made from) has a high ABBE value.