Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: SethDAugust on February 18, 2014, 12:48:06 pm
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Hello all, name is Seth and I am a commercial photog about to jump into the MF world. There is a lot of info out there, unfortunately that makes it hard to sift through to find answers so I am coming here for some more direct answers to questions and suggestions to help me find what I need.
I've looked through several "newbie" thread here and elsewhere to tell you to first go rent or test out the various camera systems and then make an informed decision based upon that. I have shot a few MF bodies previously and I am leaning towards a Hasselblad system because of comfort - to be honest pretty much anything will be higher IQ than my 5DmkII at this point. MP count isn't entirely important but I would like to make a step upward from where I am working at currently, so something in the 30-40MP range would be perfect. I realize it's not everything but I do want to leave some room to grow in the next few years as (hopefully) my work gets used in larger sizes.
I shoot almost everything - portrait, fashion/glamour, landscapes for art sales, product and food, automotive, weddings... I am looking for something I can also possibly start to attach onto a large format 4x5 Cambo system for some of the product/food studio work I do (and hopefully get more of). I realize I need an adapter for that but want to make sure I am buying the right back for it as well. From what I have seen mostly everything has an adapter for this use. However, what about if I wanted to try an older film camera like a Rollei 6008 or Mamiya 645 AF with a digital back. I am wondering how something like an H4D-31 (what I am leaning towards buying both out of liking the feel/images and budget) would be able to fit on one of those. Looking around there are different mounts obviously and I am confused as to what can be converted to fit other backs. Even though my first priority is to upgrade to deliver great images, I think it would be fun to use an older, less expensive MF camera system as a back up body too.
Anyway, that's where I will start. I do have more questions/recommendations I will need to address once I get over this first hump but I very much appreciate everyone's help.
Thanks
-Seth
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You'll probably have more luck with a Phase back on some of those cameras - eg the mamiya 645 af. But bodies are not that expensive, go a generation newer and get a Mamiya/Phase DF - about 3K.
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And what back would you suggest that would be comparable to that of the one on an H4D-31?
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And what back would you suggest that would be comparable to that of the one on an H4D-31?
P30+ is the closest direct comparison.
P21, P21+, P30, P40+, IQ140, Credo 40 are also in the same general ballpark. At a different range of pricing, features, resolution etc.
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P30+ is the closest direct comparison.
P21, P21+, P30, P40+, IQ140, Credo 40 are also in the same general ballpark. At a different range of pricing, features, resolution etc.
I have looked around a bit at P30+ and P40+
Question is if I do opt for this route and am inclined to stick with the Hasselblad H body as my main, what would be the downside of going with an H3D or even H2D? It seems H4D and H3DII body only without the Hasselblad back units are harder to come by.
Obviously if I just when with a 645DF then the issue of using other systems with a P30/40+ back is solved but I now I'm not buying the camera I felt most comfortable using.
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I suggest to prefer an H2 than an H3 since one is an "open" camera while the other is "closed". If using the back on a view camera is among your aims, I would highly recommend the Aptus 7II… Larger sensor from the earlier suggested too…
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I suggest to prefer an H2 than an H3 since one is an "open" camera while the other is "closed". If using the back on a view camera is among your aims, I would highly recommend the Aptus 7II… Larger sensor from the earlier suggested too…
So you're saying more options to be had with an H2 than the H3 system. Interesting, I would have almost thought the opposite.
The Aptus ii 7 was initially among my choices but it's just too far out of the price range I need to keep in when adding bodies and lenses into the system.
I would consider an Aptus 65 or 75 but not sure how those compare to the newer ones other than in similar MP range.
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So you're saying more options to be had with an H2 than the H3 system. Interesting, I would have almost thought the opposite.
The Aptus ii 7 was initially among my choices but it's just too far out of the price range I need to keep in when adding bodies and lenses into the system.
I would consider an Aptus 65 or 75 but not sure how those compare to the newer ones other than in similar MP range.
Aptus 75 is great…. IQ difference from 7 is nothing worth considering… I doubt you'll ever change the back if you get one of these…. Larger image area than 65.
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Aptus 75 is great…. IQ difference from 7 is nothing worth considering… I doubt you'll ever change the back if you get one of these…. Larger image area than 65.
great thanks for that info.
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You can't put a phase body on the H3/4/5, you can on the H1/H2 though, and (only) if you have an H1 or H2, can trade them in for a H4X, which will also take a phase back, but you can't buy them direct retail. I'm in a similar boat as you, I loved the Hassy ergonomics and feel, and recently bought an H1 with p25+.
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you can on the H1/H2 though, and (only) if you have an H1 or H2, can trade them in for a H4X
Working with a good dealer means you do not need to own an H1 or H2 to purchase an H4X. We sell P1 kits with H4X bodies to customers without such onerous ownership requirements.
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Please note that the Leaf Aptus II backs do not work with the H4x.
I have never heard of there being any issues with the Leaf Aptus 75 but it is definitely recommended to double-check before buying.
I also cannot find the H4X page anymore on the Hasselblad USA website. It makes me wonder whether the H4X is still being offered as an upgrade.
Perhaps one of the dealers can confirm whether it is still available or not.
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You can't put a phase body on the H3/4/5, you can on the H1/H2 though, and (only) if you have an H1 or H2, can trade them in for a H4X, which will also take a phase back, but you can't buy them direct retail. I'm in a similar boat as you, I loved the Hassy ergonomics and feel, and recently bought an H1 with p25+.
The same applies for all backs… not for Phase One only...
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I am not a pro, but I got an H3D-31 some time ago so maybe I can answer some of your questions.
First: as far as pixel count or sharpness is, the 31 mpix backs are not much better than a D800e. The H lenses are better than the Nikon lenses, not necessarily on pure sharpness but rather on the way they "draw" the subject. The differences are relatively small, though. If you want to make a difference, I would choose a 40 or 50 mpix back.
Second: all this only makes sense if you want to print big.
Third: 31 and 40 mpix backs (all brands) are not adapted to view or technical cameras but are twice as sensitive than other ccd backs. 31 and 40 mpix backs also use a smaller sensor than the rest.
Fourth: I don't think that mounting a H back on a Rollei 6008 or Mamiya 645 is possible (I am not sure), because the physical mount is different. But it does not make sense anyway, because the H is a better camera. Phase backs mount natively on Mamiya 645 cameras.
Five: For product photography, the Hasselblad HTS is probably more convenient than the Cambo. But you can use the H back on the Cambo, tethered.
Feel free to ask more questions as they come.
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Hi Seth
I have a 5D2 a D800 and H3d31 and and H4d40. They are all great cameras but I would say the Canon is the weakest of the three for image quality.
I suggest you get in touch with Steve at Capture Integration (I bought my H4D40 -Factory refurb- from them) and their service is excellent.
https://captureintegration.com
Happy to answer any questions you might have here.
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I am not a pro, but I got an H3D-31 some time ago so maybe I can answer some of your questions.
All of Jerome's info is legit. Don't waste your time trying to put a Hasselblad back on a Mamiya or Rollie - it's not designed to work. It comes down to what you are trying to do. I would consider heavily what your output is going to be. Lots of clients are all about the MP at this point, so you should consider what a A7r with the Metabones adapter will give you (plus native lenses) or the D800e. If you're going to look at a Cambo setup, make sure you have a non-microlens back - the rule of thumb I heard on LL was a base ISO of 100 means microlenses (and limited tilt/shift ability).
If you can't up your pricing and have to do this out of pocket, don't half ass it with a less than 40MP size. Consider a used Pentax 645D as the cheapest way to get to 40MP, with the rumors on the v2 being a 50MP product. That should get you going for under $10k, while a used -40, -50 or a P40+/45+/IQ140 will be closer to $15-20k.
Welcome to club, choose your product and dealer wisely. Changing them can be extremely expensive.
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Thanks for the info everyone.
Very much appreciated. After talking with Doug I am going to test drive an Mamiya DF+ and see how that goes. I loved the feel of the Hasselblad in my hand but maybe if the Mamiya grows on me it will be a better choice financially and also to be able to use on multiple systems down the road.
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Thanks for the info everyone.
Very much appreciated. After talking with Doug I am going to test drive an Mamiya DF+ and see how that goes. I loved the feel of the Hasselblad in my hand but maybe if the Mamiya grows on me it will be a better choice financially and also to be able to use on multiple systems down the road.
The DF+ pleasantly surprised me. I am not a fan of the older Mamiya bodies, but there are some subtle, but very effective tweaks made to the DF+ that makes it a very useful body. Not to say that it's miles better than a a Hassy body or anything. Everyone has their own preferences.
One thing the Phase IQ/ Leaf Credo backs have that the Hassy backs don't is an amazing display. It makes life a lot easier when shooting untethered.
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Hello all, name is Seth and I am a commercial photog about to jump into the MF world. There is a lot of info out there, unfortunately that makes it hard to sift through to find answers so I am coming here for some more direct answers to questions and suggestions to help me find what I need.
I've looked through several "newbie" thread here and elsewhere to tell you to first go rent or test out the various camera systems and then make an informed decision based upon that. I have shot a few MF bodies previously and I am leaning towards a Hasselblad system because of comfort - to be honest pretty much anything will be higher IQ than my 5DmkII at this point. MP count isn't entirely important but I would like to make a step upward from where I am working at currently, so something in the 30-40MP range would be perfect. I realize it's not everything but I do want to leave some room to grow in the next few years as (hopefully) my work gets used in larger sizes.
I shoot almost everything - portrait, fashion/glamour, landscapes for art sales, product and food, automotive, weddings... I am looking for something I can also possibly start to attach onto a large format 4x5 Cambo system for some of the product/food studio work I do (and hopefully get more of). I realize I need an adapter for that but want to make sure I am buying the right back for it as well. From what I have seen mostly everything has an adapter for this use. However, what about if I wanted to try an older film camera like a Rollei 6008 or Mamiya 645 AF with a digital back. I am wondering how something like an H4D-31 (what I am leaning towards buying both out of liking the feel/images and budget) would be able to fit on one of those. Looking around there are different mounts obviously and I am confused as to what can be converted to fit other backs. Even though my first priority is to upgrade to deliver great images, I think it would be fun to use an older, less expensive MF camera system as a back up body too.
Anyway, that's where I will start. I do have more questions/recommendations I will need to address once I get over this first hump but I very much appreciate everyone's help.
Thanks
-Seth
Hi, I highly recommend the PhaseOne IQ1/2 series. (The Credo also, it only lacks a few features but the outstanding chassis and screen are the same as the IQ). I own an IQ160 and is an extremely versatile piece of equipment. I use it mainly on a technical camera (Arca Swiss Rm3Di) but also mount it on a Hasselblad H1 on occasion to make portraits (the Medium Format Viewfinders are awesome, much larger than any in 35mm). The Sensor + feature on the IQ backs works great for higher volume shoots where you want the flexibility to use higher iso and the lower file size is an asset (but it is still a RAW file, just smaller) while still having the same look of the full medium format sensor. The tethering ease and performance/reliability is also superb. Great for supervised shoots. I did not enjoy the expense but after the fact I forgot about it and just enjoy using the system. Just a superb photographic tool. I have done quite a bit of paid work with it and have made some amazing prints. I sell them at a premium over the ones made with 35mm digital gear for a reason. At 30x40in sizes and larger the print from the 60MP back and Rodenstock HR lenses is just a cut above, way above. Working with the files is truly a joy. Very very malleable.
The most important thing is that you get a system that is right for the way you work and what you want it to use it for. Medium Format Digital is a great alternative. It has a different look and feel. I love it.
Yes, the Sony A7R and D800E have great sensor (a similar one is available in larger form on the new Phase1 IQ250) but they are still 35mm full frame CMOS camera systems. The A7R does allow the use of a wide range of lenses through adapters which is great though and although it lacks an optical viewfinder the EVF it has is nice. Still, working with medium format is a much different experience and digital backs are extremely versatile in that you can use them in a wide range of systems.
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Great info, thanks Ken!
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Great info, thanks Ken!
No Prob!
Also, it is best to work with a dealer. It is a significant expense and a dealer (in my case Digital Transitions in NYC) helped in getting me the right kit for me (Lance and Doug answered all my questions and showed me several options). Also a Dealer is a must for getting great support should anything go wrong or if you have any issues getting the most out of your gear.
It is one of the reasons I sold my 645D, the lack of all that, even though it was a very nice camera.
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Please note that the Leaf Aptus II backs do not work with the H4x.
I have never heard of there being any issues with the Leaf Aptus 75 but it is definitely recommended to double-check before buying.
I also cannot find the H4X page anymore on the Hasselblad USA website. It makes me wonder whether the H4X is still being offered as an upgrade.
Perhaps one of the dealers can confirm whether it is still available or not.
The H4X is indeed being offered still. However, there is no requirement to provide an H1 or H2 trade in any longer. It is now a stand alone order-ready camera body.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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It seems that everyone is advising to get a PhaseOne back. I am not really sure why, but Hasselblad does not appear to be popular on this forum. PhaseOne certainly makes very nice backs, but plenty of pro photographers use Hasselblad cameras and are happy with the results.
Basically, you said you want to shoot portrait, fashion/glamour, landscapes for art sales, product and food, automotive and weddings. You also want to use a 4x5 Cambo for product/food and try a Rollei 6008 or Mamiya 645AF.
What can I tell you?
First, I would forget about the 6008 and 645AF. If you want to try an older film camera, get yourself a RB 67 and don't connect it to a digital back. Or use your 4x5.
Second, I would also forget about the Cambo with a digital back. Using a camera designed for 4x5 with a digital back is not productive. If you need movements for shooting products on a digital back, the Hasselblad HTS is a better solution.
Third: as with anything photography, the real question is not the camera but the lenses. Hasselblad lenses are very, very good and their line-up covers all what one would do with a MF camera.
Now let us see your intended uses:
-portrait or fashion/glamour: any MF can do that, but you need lenses which have a nice rendering and may appreciate a leaf shutter for outdoor flash photography. Advantage Hasselblad here.
-landscapes for art sales: MF is spectacular when printed big (any brand), a leaf shutter avoids vibrations (only on H cameras, PhaseOne still operates the focal plane shutter), which is a big deal. OTOH, prepare yourself for cameras and lenses which weight double what you are used to. Do you want to carry that much weight or rather use the 5D / buy a Sony 7R and 35mm?
-product and food: movements are a big plus and the HTS is simply a very convenient and productive solution when shooting tethered in the studio with Phocus. Phocus automatically computes fall-off and other defects, taking tilt and shift values into account. Use the standard 80mm on extension rings (very good results) or the new 50mm with the specially designed macro adapter (incredibly good results).
-automotive: any MF camera can do that. Save money for the strobes.
-weddings: use your Canon, unless it is for portraits. MF cameras can shoot up to iso400 (50 mpix backs and more) or iso800-1600 (31 or 40 mpix backs) with good results, but the AF system is not as good as what your 5D does. AND the 5D has more convenient zooms.
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What Jerome said.
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Hi,
As someone noted, many people like Phase One on these forums. I think that there are a couple of reasons for that:
- Phase One makes good stuff and may be the leader in MF digital.
- Hasselblad made the very unwise decision to lock everyone else out from their system.
- Most MFD owners related to LuLa are shooting Phase One
- A lot of knowledgable Phase One distributors chiming in
So, I guess that it is quite natural that this site is a bit oriented towards Phase and it is a bit out of phase with Hasselblad.
I may be a bit pity. I feel that Hasselblad makes great cameras.
Best regards
Erik
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- Hasselblad made the very unwise decision to lock everyone else out from their system.
So can I take the back off one of my Hasselblads and put it on the DF1 or whatever it's called?
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- Hasselblad made the very unwise decision to lock everyone else out from their system.
I am not so sure that this decision was "unwise". It seems that PhaseOne was actually manufacturing H backs at the time (mine sure says "Made in Denmark". I don't think that Hasselblad could have survived without that decision.
Just as an exercise: let me check one little thing with you. How many digital MF brands existed at the time? Which one of them survive today?
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I am not so sure that this decision was "unwise". It seems that PhaseOne was actually manufacturing H backs at the time (mine sure says "Made in Denmark". I don't think that Hasselblad could have survived without that decision.
That's because at the time Hasselblad was making backs in Denmark.
They've since closed that facility and the backs are made in Sweden.
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I am not so sure that this decision was "unwise". It seems that PhaseOne was actually manufacturing H backs at the time (mine sure says "Made in Denmark". I don't think that Hasselblad could have survived without that decision.
Just as an exercise: let me check one little thing with you. How many digital MF brands existed at the time? Which one of them survive today?
The Hasselblad system is a VERY good MF SLR system. It is well integrated, has a wide range of excellent lenses and performs very well from what I have seen. In my case I wanted to use a technical camera as my main platform for medium format digital and PhaseOne makes the best product for that (untethered work out in the field under a wide range of weather conditions). Yes, the Hasselblad Backs can be made to work on a tech camera but it is not their forte. Like I mentioned I even have a H1 body to use with my IQ160 back on certain occasions. Works great.
Todays MF Digital offerings are superb. It is awesome to have so many good choices. It is better than it has ever been. Can the products be better. Of course they can. The main shortcomings are speed, AF performance, High ISO image quality and Live View. All should be improved in the coming products. In fact a few of those wants have been addressed by the PhaseOne IQ250 already and the upcoming Hasselblad H5D-50C and the Pentax 645D II very soon.
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I am not so sure that this decision was "unwise". It seems that PhaseOne was actually manufacturing H backs at the time (mine sure says "Made in Denmark". I don't think that Hasselblad could have survived without that decision.
Just as an exercise: let me check one little thing with you. How many digital MF brands existed at the time? Which one of them survive today?
Actually, they changed hands twice (or was it three times ?) and production shrunk enough to shut down the Denmark facilities (ex-Imacon), because of the decision to "close" the system… Then, they had another stupid decision (their marketing dpt seems to be run by "bright" people), they replaced the CF backs with the CFV backs… so that users of other cameras couldn't buy a Hasselblad back anymore (real marketing Einsteins these guys !! ;))…., now they have a third bright decision… :o the lunar/solar system that will sell… 50000 cameras annually :P (or maybe it will be 2,000,000) ::). The end is near unless they wake up! Leica/Sinar & Phamyia will have them for breakfast… ??? :'(
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One remark considering the closed H system bodies (H3+), Hasselblad decided to make new lenses (all HCD labeled AFAIK) to only work on the closed bodies. So you cannot put all available lenses on an H1/H2 body. I think H4X is the only body compatible with all the lenses and non-hasselblad backs.
So if you plan on using any of the HCD lenses, your only option is to go all Hasselblad.
(better informed people please correct me if that's no longer true :-))
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The H4X is indeed being offered still. However, there is no requirement to provide an H1 or H2 trade in any longer. It is now a stand alone order-ready camera body.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Thanks for confirming Steve!
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Hasselblad lenses are very, very good and their line-up covers all what one would do with a MF camera.
+1. Hasselblad still has the most complete lens line-up. No other manufacturer has 12 autofocus leaf shutter lenses.
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One remark considering the closed H system bodies (H3+), Hasselblad decided to make new lenses (all HCD labeled AFAIK) to only work on the closed bodies. So you cannot put all available lenses on an H1/H2 body. I think H4X is the only body compatible with all the lenses and non-hasselblad backs.
So if you plan on using any of the HCD lenses, your only option is to go all Hasselblad.
(better informed people please correct me if that's no longer true :-))
Just the modest tweak, if you don't mind - If you plan on using any of the HCD lenses and you also want to shoot with a Leaf or Phase One digital back, then your only option is to purchase a Hasselblad H4X body. Otherwise, your option is to go all Hasselblad, as you stated.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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I think H4X is the only body compatible with all the lenses and non-hasselblad backs.
You can use the HCD lenses on a H4X body but you don't get the DAC lens corrections as you are not using Phocus.
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Thanks Steve. As said before I'm looking away from Hasselblad now because of the immense amount of other options I would have shooting a phase one body.
Right now my biggest choice would be to learn towards a new Credo 40, a new Aptus II 8 or a pre owned P40+ for the 645DF+ body.
Anyone have a preference in that group?
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Thanks Steve. As said before I'm looking away from Hasselblad now because of the immense amount of other options I would have shooting a phase one body.
Right now my biggest choice would be to learn towards a new Credo 40, a new Aptus II 8 or a pre owned P40+ for the 645DF+ body.
Anyone have a preference in that group?
I tested a credo and aptus II side by side and instantly made my mind to get the credo. The screen is better, overall operation is faster and it exudes better quality overall.
there are some good deals on the p backs, but the screen was a deal breaker for me. May not be a factor for others though...
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Thanks Steve. As said before I'm looking away from Hasselblad now because of the immense amount of other options I would have shooting a phase one body.
Right now my biggest choice would be to learn towards a new Credo 40, a new Aptus II 8 or a pre owned P40+ for the 645DF+ body.
Anyone have a preference in that group?
Between those 3 the Leaf Credo 40 for sure.
The P40+ has the same sensor and it has sensor + but the screen of the P40+ is horrible.
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Thanks Steve. As said before I'm looking away from Hasselblad now because of the immense amount of other options I would have shooting a phase one body.
Right now my biggest choice would be to learn towards a new Credo 40, a new Aptus II 8 or a pre owned P40+ for the 645DF+ body.
Anyone have a preference in that group?
Like others, I would have to say Credo 40. But the cost will be higher, so it is important to quantify the advantages as they would impact you and your work. Same CCD Sensor in all 3 backs (but color and out of the box rendering different with all 3). There are many unique advantages for each. That said - a Credo 40/DF+ kit is a great buy right now, considering it is about $6,000 less than it was in December.
https://captureintegration.com/mamiya-leaf-40-promotion/
And only $2,000 more than an Aptus-II 8, and thousands less than a new P40+ (and not too far off refurbished P40+ units). Ok, I've talked myself into it. Your budget has to be pretty tight if it is in that range to not go for the Credo!
Re-reading your initial post, with regard to backup, options will be limited to DF/DF+ bodies if you opt for the Schneider lenses.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Yeah I feel myself leaning for either going all out on the Credo or going more budget friendly on the pre owned P40+.
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Can you still buy a P40+ new? I thought it was replaced by the IQ140.
P40+ is the same generation as the P65+. Terrible LCD, not good for any type of feedback. Credo screen and all go the other features, would push me to a credo 40.
Paul C
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Can you still buy a P40+ new? I thought it was replaced by the IQ140.
P40+ is the same generation as the P65+. Terrible LCD, not good for any type of feedback. Credo screen and all go the other features, would push me to a credo 40.
Paul C
Yes, P40+ units can still be purchased new ($13,990). But since we've had pre-owned units with warranty for $8,500 - $9,500, I can't remember the last time I sold a new one. For that matter, P30+ can also be purchased new ($10,990). Same story there.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Hi,
The dominant MF system would be Phasselblad and not Phamiya. Phase One would never dream of acquiring Mamiya.
Best regards
Erik
I am not so sure that this decision was "unwise". It seems that PhaseOne was actually manufacturing H backs at the time (mine sure says "Made in Denmark". I don't think that Hasselblad could have survived without that decision.
Just as an exercise: let me check one little thing with you. How many digital MF brands existed at the time? Which one of them survive today?
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Steve,
Shooting tethered via a P1 back, can I microstep (focus) the H lenses on an H4X via live view in C1 v7.x ?
Thanks
Just the modest tweak, if you don't mind - If you plan on using any of the HCD lenses and you also want to shoot with a Leaf or Phase One digital back, then your only option is to purchase a Hasselblad H4X body. Otherwise, your option is to go all Hasselblad, as you stated.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Thanks Steve. As said before I'm looking away from Hasselblad now because of the immense amount of other options I would have shooting a phase one body.
And you decide that from just a few messages on an Internet forum?
I mean: I have no commercial interest in Hasselblad or Phase One. I don't own any of their stock for example. What you chose does not matter to me. But what matters to me is the new phenomenon I see everywhere on the Internet where forums, which used to be places where one could find independent help, are slowly turning into something a lot less useful.
If you had asked your question in an ideal world, you would have had answers listing the advantages and disadvantages of the two competing systems. Then you would have chosen the system which is best suited to your particular needs. What you got in this thread was markedly different. Go back and read the thread from day one.
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Seth, first of all welcome aboard!
Second, as others suggested, there's a number of camera shops and dealers in your area that can help by letting you try or play with the kit, either a Credo DF+ combo, an Aptus-II 7/ 8, a P40+ or a Hasselblad. You should also have a go at each product's software to get a feel of the workflow (tethered and/ or untethered).
The internet is a great tool for many things and is loaded with useful information, but as Jerome says, forums are often subject to bias (naturally) and a small number of posters might not represent the real world.
Good hunting!
Yair
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Steve,
Shooting tethered via a P1 back, can I microstep (focus) the H lenses on an H4X via live view in C1 v7.x ?
Thanks
No, that is only a capability that Phocus currently provides via H4D/H5D cameras. You can step focus with the Phase One IXR camera and C1 v7.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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I am not so sure that this decision was "unwise". It seems that PhaseOne was actually manufacturing H backs at the time (mine sure says "Made in Denmark". I don't think that Hasselblad could have survived without that decision.
Just as an exercise: let me check one little thing with you. How many digital MF brands existed at the time? Which one of them survive today?
That 'Made in Denmark' is because of Imacon, not Phase One.
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Well to be fair, I did say "looking" not "choosing".
I have been speaking with a few sales people at 2 companies who are giving me more info on the Phase/Mamiya 645 systems and various backs and such. Ultimately I do need to likely narrow down which back I would like to consider and then rent a 645 and an H4D system and make my decision based upon that.
The point of me being here is to gather info and impressions in an effort to know what to look for when I do finally make a decision. If someone said the Hassleblad batteries crap out after a year of use - I wouldn't know that testing it for a few days so those are the kinds of things I'd like to be able to consider outside of which one feels like the right camera. I know I like how the Hasselblad feels - the ergonomics, and still need to test the 645DF+ to see how that feels.
No blindly buying based upon what anyone says is going to happen here - including people who sell them for a living.
Thanks.
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Then, what I can say (beyond the fact that Hasselblad batteries apparently do not crap out after a year, since the one I use are a few years old...) is that you will not test the camera only. The software is just as important, especially for tethered use. Hasselblad uses Phocus, which is somewhat confusing at first, but allows a very powerful and efficient workflow. Phase One uses Capture One, which I don't know but has a good reputation. Try to attend to an afternoon demo of each one if you want to make an opinion on the two camera systems.
As I said, my opinion of the Hasselblad system is generally positive. For my needs, there is little it cannot do. There are very few frustrations or omissions in the overall system (camera, lenses, adapters, etc...). I can see that the workflow is designed for the needs of pro photographers (i.e. mainly portrait/fashion and product photography). Obviously, it lacks the conveniences of a 35mm system (e.g. highest iso, fast AF or 16-35 and 70-200 zoom...), but you should already know that. Probably the biggest annoyance for a pro is that all repairs happen in Sweden, so if your camera break it will take 3 weeks to be repaired, but I am not sure that Phase One... or Canon are much better here.
As to the workflow... Let me give you examples:
Landscape: the 28mm lens is excellent and the leaf shutter means you only need a relatively light tripod. OTOH, checking focus is difficult on my camera (but is easier on the H5D which has a better screen).
Architecture: not really a strong point if you need movements. The HTS is not the best choice. The backs can be used on a technical camera with an adapter with battery though.
Product: very good. The 120mm macro lens is very good (and the new version even better). The HTS is well adapted to that use, particularly with the 80mm or 50mm-II and macro adapter. Shooting tethered with Phocus is very good once you are used to the interface. You can focus using a surprisingly usable sort of live view.
Portrait/fashion: the cameras produce very pleasant skin colours and the lenses, especially the 100mm, 120, 150 and 210 have very nice bokeh and in-focus to out of focus transitions. The leaf shutter allows your flash to overpower the sun (if you have a fast flash, cheap strobe heads won't do).
As I said, I am pretty sure that the competition makes good cameras as well, and people using them will probably chime in. It is a question of what you need and what you want. For example: I tried a Sinar back as well. Compared to the Hasselblad, I found very convenient that it had its own battery inside, and that it could deliver jpegs. Its screen was much better and faster as well (but my Hasselblad back is old, newer are better on that point). OTOH, Sinar software could only control the back and not the camera at all and that is a big advantage of Phocus.
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Thanks for the info.
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Compared to the Hasselblad, I found very convenient that it had its own battery inside, and that it could deliver jpegs.
Just adding that the H5D does deliver jpegs as well.
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so if your camera break it will take 3 weeks to be repaired, but I am not sure that Phase One... or Canon are much better here.
I am told by my dealer that minor repairs can be done locally.
Out of curiosity, how much better is the H5D's screen? I haven't seen one up close. Is it significantly better than the H4D screen?
One thing I really like about the Credo back is that if I shoot a portrait, zoom it at 100% on the eye and shoot another image with more or less the same framing, the next image will also show up 100% zoomed in on the same spot automatically. This saves time on the field. Do the blad backs do this?
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I am not a pro, but I got an H3D-31 some time ago so maybe I can answer some of your questions.
First: as far as pixel count or sharpness is, the 31 mpix backs are not much better than a D800e. The H lenses are better than the Nikon lenses, not necessarily on pure sharpness but rather on the way they "draw" the subject. The differences are relatively small, though. If you want to make a difference, I would choose a 40 or 50 mpix back.
Second: all this only makes sense if you want to print big.
Third: 31 and 40 mpix backs (all brands) are not adapted to view or technical cameras but are twice as sensitive than other ccd backs. 31 and 40 mpix backs also use a smaller sensor than the rest.
Fourth: I don't think that mounting a H back on a Rollei 6008 or Mamiya 645 is possible (I am not sure), because the physical mount is different. But it does not make sense anyway, because the H is a better camera. Phase backs mount natively on Mamiya 645 cameras.
Five: For product photography, the Hasselblad HTS is probably more convenient than the Cambo. But you can use the H back on the Cambo, tethered.
Feel free to ask more questions as they come.
Jerome -
One note for accuracy. For MFD solutions that offer removable digital backs, only the 40MP sensor in the Hasselblad H4D/H5D provides additional sensitivity. Phase One and Leaf offer 40 megapixel options, but these are a completely different type of CCD that is less sensitive than the 31/40 megapixel Kodak sensors. However they are better optimized for using on movement-based cameras. To summarize:
*31 Megapixel Kodak Sensor - (with enhanced microlenses). Boosts sensitivity (roughly 2 stops), not ideal for use on movement-based view or technical cameras (more impacted by difficult to correct anomalies)
- Hasselblad H3D-31
- Hasselblad H3D-II 31
- Hasselblad H4D-31
- Phase One P30
- Phase One P30+
*40 Megapixel Kodak Sensor - (with enhanced microlenses). Boosts sensitivity (at least 2 stops), not ideal for use on movement-based view or technical cameras (more impacted by difficult to correct anomalies).
- Hasselblad H4D-40
- Hasselblad H5D-40
*40 Megapixel Dalsa Sensor - Standard MFD sensitivity (conservatively ISO 50-200), works well on movement-based view or technical cameras.
- Phase One P40+
- Phase One IQ140
- Leaf Aptus-II 8
- Leaf Credo 40
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Thank you Steve, that's great stuff to know!
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Out of curiosity, how much better is the H5D's screen? I haven't seen one up close. Is it significantly better than the H4D screen?
I haven't seen a H5D screen close, but I suppose that they are similar. I know that the H5D is significantly faster when displaying pictures (zooming in or moving in a zoomed picture). The H3DII screens are poorer and the H3D screens are very small and quite bad.
One thing I really like about the Credo back is that if I shoot a portrait, zoom it at 100% on the eye and shoot another image with more or less the same framing, the next image will also show up 100% zoomed in on the same spot automatically. This saves time on the field. Do the blad backs do this?
I have been told that they do it slightly differently: because they know where you focussed from the true focus system, they will show you that part first. So it works even if you change the framing. (H4D and H5D only, the 3 do not have true focus).
Phase One and Leaf offer 40 megapixel options, but these are a completely different type of CCD that is less sensitive than the 31/40 megapixel Kodak sensors. However they are better optimized for using on movement-based cameras.
Thanks, I did not know that.
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My usual summary:
Phase has wonderful backs with the exceptionally good software C1, so the combination is especially powerful if you stay with their software. The Phase body is based on the old focal-plane shutter Mamiya 645, and not so modern in concept although there are now some leaf-shutter lenses. The focus points are very close to the center of the field, and the focus ability cannot match a dSLR.
Hasselblad have a more recently designed body, that has been improved again with a novel focus system (True Focus) that allows you to do accurate focus and recompose. Also they provide the ability to use a vertical finder eyepiece. All the Hassy lenses have leaf shutters. There is a perception that Hasselblad do not quite squeeze the last bit out of the sensor like Phase.
After this the differences depend on the back you are using and your exact application. Both of these manufacturers allow you to use the back independently on a tech camera. If you don't need that flexibility, then you might also look at the Leica S which is closer to a 35mm dSLR in ergonomics, and the Pentax 645D which is now being sold well under $10K, with a new model on the way.
Edmund
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Well to be fair, I did say "looking" not "choosing".
I have been speaking with a few sales people at 2 companies who are giving me more info on the Phase/Mamiya 645 systems and various backs and such. Ultimately I do need to likely narrow down which back I would like to consider and then rent a 645 and an H4D system and make my decision based upon that.
The point of me being here is to gather info and impressions in an effort to know what to look for when I do finally make a decision. If someone said the Hassleblad batteries crap out after a year of use - I wouldn't know that testing it for a few days so those are the kinds of things I'd like to be able to consider outside of which one feels like the right camera. I know I like how the Hasselblad feels - the ergonomics, and still need to test the 645DF+ to see how that feels.
No blindly buying based upon what anyone says is going to happen here - including people who sell them for a living.
Thanks.
As far as ergonomics, I have no experience with Hasselblad H. I did handle a V body, Contax 645 and a Mamiya 645 DF. Both 645 bodies don't sit well in my hands. I hate the side dial on the Mamiya. While using only the main dial, the handling is fine. Nice huge thumb indent for supporting the body. However once the rear/side dial is needed, you have to shift your thumb out of the indent and the body starts to slip out of hand since it's heavy.
Viewfinders are nice and huge/bright, no complaints there. Also the controls are well mostly well placed.
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Again, thanks for those replies. Still soaking up the info.
I have put my considerations into a spreadsheet and scored them based upon some important areas such as cost, level of newer technology, post processing ability and ergonomics.
Out of the 4 I am considering (H4D40 or 645DF+ with P40+, Leaf Credo 40 or Leaf Aptus II 8) I think I am only able to say I don't believe the Aptus II 8 is in the running anymore with the cost/benefit ratio being the lowest on the list. A P40+ would be my value buy and the Credo 40 would be my big spender investment buy with the Hass right in the middle.
I never thought picking a camera would be so damn hard. It just really seems like these cameras and systems are great in so many areas that the others lack that they make up for it in the end and it's a tie so just just flip a coin. If I was solely a product shooter, maybe the 645 options would be better but it seems like the Hass is better suited for portrait/fashion which is a good amount of what I do. I need a jack of all trades!
Hoping to have some time this weekend to really sit down and make a decision on at least a system to go with and then choose a back if that's necessary.
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If I was solely a product shooter, maybe the 645 options would be better but it seems like the Hass is better suited for portrait/fashion which is a good amount of what I do. I need a jack of all trades!
Not sure what your criteria for making that statement is, but gear from both brands do really well for product and portraiture shooting.
Check out the gallery sections in the Hass site and the P1 & Mamiyaleaf sites. You'll see a healthy mix of great samples across genres.
My personal belief is that it all comes down to personal preferences. Not very unlike the Canon/ Nikon choice.
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Hi,
I would say that sitting down and think may be a good option. You may also consider sticking with what you have? Perhaps spending some time on testing different colour profile options? Or just wait to see where present generation CMOS lands in the MF digital world?
Best regards
Erik
Again, thanks for those replies. Still soaking up the info.
I have put my considerations into a spreadsheet and scored them based upon some important areas such as cost, level of newer technology, post processing ability and ergonomics.
Out of the 4 I am considering (H4D40 or 645DF+ with P40+, Leaf Credo 40 or Leaf Aptus II 8) I think I am only able to say I don't believe the Aptus II 8 is in the running anymore with the cost/benefit ratio being the lowest on the list. A P40+ would be my value buy and the Credo 40 would be my big spender investment buy with the Hass right in the middle.
I never thought picking a camera would be so damn hard. It just really seems like these cameras and systems are great in so many areas that the others lack that they make up for it in the end and it's a tie so just just flip a coin. If I was solely a product shooter, maybe the 645 options would be better but it seems like the Hass is better suited for portrait/fashion which is a good amount of what I do. I need a jack of all trades!
Hoping to have some time this weekend to really sit down and make a decision on at least a system to go with and then choose a back if that's necessary.
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Seth,
I don't know the gap, between the new P40+ and the Credo 40, but I would strongly weigh the credo over the P40+ mainly due to the screen and if you are tethered shooter the USB3.
The screen on the older Phase Backs, like the P45+ and P40+ basically were good for general info, i.e histogram, exposure, but not good for determining good focus. I use the P45+ for almost 3 years on several different Mamiya 645 cameras, then ended up with the DF. With the older Mamiya wides, and even the mid telephotos, you can be fooled by the AF drive and miss by just enough to be out of critical focus. For me, attempting to manually focus with the optical finder on the DF is next to impossible, even with the Mamiya magnifier. In the field I found that I often times needed to use manual focus and the only real way to tell was viewing the LCD on the P45+.
This is a cumbersome process to being with, requires several different combination of buttons to get to 100% and then to move around. However the screen's feedback at 100% tended to fool me and often what I thought was in focus was not.
The IQ, Credo screen really has no comparison on the market currently from what I have seen. The feedback you get is very impressive. The Credo doesn't offer focus mask, but it still have the same clear sharp resolution similar to an iphone screen. Viewing images on this screen at 100%, you know instantly if you are are in focus or not and it's worth more than a P40+, but as I don't know the current gap, between the two I don't know if the screen alone is enough. In my work I am 100% dependent on the IQ LCD as I don't shoot tethered. If you are in a studio/tethered, then I realize this may not be anywhere as big a consideration.
Paul C
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Thanks for the info Paul.
I can tether into my MacBook Pro pretty easily via thunderbolt or USB but at places like at the beach or other locations its probably my preference to just work off the back of the camera if I am shooting along or with a single assistant. Also when doing a few weddings I will not be tethered.
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When shooting tethered the IQ and Credo allow you to review the last 10 shots, including histogram and exposure warning, both of which are shown without interrupting the view of the main image (allowed by using the wide aspect ratio screen with the 4:3 image) and the ability to double tap to 100% on any part of the image.
You should do your own testing to see what practical effect this has for you. For me it's huge - it allows me to quickly check a sequence of shots without breaking my connection/rhythm to the model. It's faster for me to vet the image than it is with Canon or Nikon, and feels like a more organic continuation of the shoot than turning my body/head to the large tethered monitor. This ability of the Credo and IQ has allowed me to shoot tethered, with the monitor NOT visible to either I or the model while shooting, but (even without an assistant) have confidence at a glance that the lighting, composition, focus, and tethering connection are all good.
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Good points!
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I feel like I am being swayed (by myself) towards an H4X system with a Credo40 back.
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So you get a small sensor at a high price? I would be OK if you don't need wide angles, but the sensor is not much larger than 135 format.
Best regards
Erik
I feel like I am being swayed (by myself) towards an H4X system with a Credo40 back.
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So you get a small sensor at a high price? I would be OK if you don't need wide angles, but the sensor is not much larger than 135 format.
Best regards
Erik
Dear thread starter,
Please ignore silly statements like this. Try it out for yourself and see if it works for you.
It does for me and I shoot similar stuff to you.
Cheers.
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Hahaha no worries, not my first rodeo on a forum by any means.
I think it makes the most sense to me but on the other hand pricing just went up from a DF+/Credo 40 kit by a few grand and doesn't include any lenses with this option. Might need to look at an H2 (for now) as I don't think I want to settle for the Mamiya system. Once I build up a few lenses in the bag and H4X's become more available on the used market and prices drop a bit more I will likely jump up for the true focus.
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In that vein...from those who have used it, how well does True Focus work in real world applications?
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I am told it's nice to have but not totally necessary to get good AF.
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I am told it's nice to have but not totally necessary to get good AF.
I use a Hasselblad H1 with my Phase IQ160 and I get very good AF performance even wide open. AF is off a hair from time to time so true focus might help making it more consistent.
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I was one of the original testers for TF and it does indeed help with focus accuracy when using focus re-compose.
The H system AF is indeed very good, certainly more accurate than me these days albeit with only one focus point.
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Well just to update everyone. I went with a Hasselblad H3Dii 39 kit that I found. The entire kit is under 2500 clicks and I got a pretty smokin' deal on it so I am happy.
The reasoning behind this was laid out by my wife for me yesterday in pretty simple terms - Spend as little capital as possible to get the best gear/results as you can, that money can go elsewhere to help the new business succeed in other areas (I'm opening a studio instead of just freelancing). The jump into medium format will be enough of an upgrade for the infancy of the business.
I knew I married her for a reason, I have to agree with the logic, it's very easy to get swept up into new fancy technology.
Don't get me wrong though, I would have loved that Credo 40 deal... it just wasn't the right time and this system with body, back lens and viewfinder less than half the cost as the H4x with the Credo 40 would have been and maybe 1/3 less than an H2/Credo 40 system (also, neither included any type of glass at those prices given to me).
With this kit I get the Hasselblad system I felt most comfortable with, the 645DF+ just felt "cheap" and while it's a great capable camera it wasn't as comfortable to shoot with. I also get the 40mp image and regardless of if the back is a little older or not, it's a big jump from a 21mp DSLR.
The plan is to shoot with it for a few years, collect some nice Hass glass over time and then look at upgrading the body/back. I did consider the downsides of 1. Using Phocus instead of Capture One and 2. The H3Dii does not have true focus, however, I think it's a very acceptable place to start with MF and if either of those becomes an issue, I will look to swap the kit sooner rather than later.
The strange thing is the kit I purchased was actually the 1st one I looked at when starting all of this 2 weeks ago.
Thanks for all the help everyone. ;D
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Well just to update everyone. I went with a Hasselblad H3Dii 39 kit that I found. The entire kit is under 2500 clicks and I got a pretty smokin' deal on it so I am happy.
The reasoning behind this was laid out by my wife for me yesterday in pretty simple terms - Spend as little capital as possible to get the best gear/results as you can, that money can go elsewhere to help the new business succeed in other areas (I'm opening a studio instead of just freelancing). The jump into medium format will be enough of an upgrade for the infancy of the business.
I knew I married her for a reason, I have to agree with the logic, it's very easy to get swept up into new fancy technology.
Don't get me wrong though, I would have loved that Credo 40 deal... it just wasn't the right time and this system with body, back lens and viewfinder less than half the cost as the H4x with the Credo 40 would have been and maybe 1/3 less than an H2/Credo 40 system (also, neither included any type of glass at those prices given to me).
With this kit I get the Hasselblad system I felt most comfortable with, the 645DF+ just felt "cheap" and while it's a great capable camera it wasn't as comfortable to shoot with. I also get the 40mp image and regardless of if the back is a little older or not, it's a big jump from a 21mp DSLR.
The plan is to shoot with it for a few years, collect some nice Hass glass over time and then look at upgrading the body/back. I did consider the downsides of 1. Using Phocus instead of Capture One and 2. The H3Dii does not have true focus, however, I think it's a very acceptable place to start with MF and if either of those becomes an issue, I will look to swap the kit sooner rather than later.
The strange thing is the kit I purchased was actually the 1st one I looked at when starting all of this 2 weeks ago.
Thanks for all the help everyone. ;D
Congrats!
Post some images soon!! :)
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Will do thanks
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+1 & +1
Erik
Congrats!
Post some images soon!! :)