Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: PaulSchneider on February 15, 2014, 05:17:29 pm
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Hi guys,
multi-billion japanese conglomerate decides to strike back in the MF arena: revolutionary specs (movie mode, ISO 100-200k!!!) for medium format at less than a third of the price of just announced P1:
http://photorumors.com/2014/02/15/pentax-645d-ii-specifications-and-price-report-from-cp/
Only remaining advantage seems to be the ability to use P1 / Hassy on tech cams and such stuff as wifi tethering.
But seriously: same sensor, less than a third of the price.
How will market reaction be?
Exciting times!
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If that price holds, yes, it could possibly be a game changer. Hopefully Pentax/Ricoh will setup their dealer support in the US. They also could use a few more lenses, at least sell more in the U.S. Example the 35mm FA, has not been available in the U.S for year, but appears to still be sold in Japan. Pentax has a real game changer here for sure, if they get it to market on time and update/ship some newer lenses. I have not yet seen anything official that states it's the same chip as the Phase One 250 has, just talk. However the 250 has already show just how much DR the Sony chip has.
Love the look of the new body and the tilting LCD.
Paul C.
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These specs are still only rumors and speculation, taken from an interview with famous Japanese photographer, not from a Ricoh-Pentax rep. One give-away is that the resolution is not specified exactly, but only as "40-50 MP".
But I am hopeful that this will be a interesting camera -- in the more affordable "medium medium format" (44x33mm) sector, as opposed to the yet far more expensive "large medium format" of about 54x40mm.
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The poll is an excellent example of what loaded questions are.
The Pentax is a fine camera and if that price is true, it will indeed be excellent value for money, but that doesn't mean it will appeal to everyone. There are still several factors about it that puts it out of contention for several photographers (Like me, for instance). Things like lack of Leaf shutter lenses, lack of proper tethering support, inability to process the files in Capture One, non-removable back, etc.
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Pentax should come with a mirrorless 645 ASAP. Sony's A7's success is partly because the camera can be used with about any lens in existence. Pentax should do the same with a body with the shortest lens mount distance to sensor and really shake the world! In practice it could work as a digital back but with controls built-in. Eduardo
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The poll is an excellent example of what loaded questions are.
The Pentax is a fine camera and if that price is true, it will indeed be excellent value for money, but that doesn't mean it will appeal to everyone. There are still several factors about it that puts it out of contention for several photographers (Like me, for instance). Things like lack of Leaf shutter lenses, lack of proper tethering support, inability to process the files in Capture One, non-removable back, etc.
The problem with a Pentax is that it is not supported by software from Phase?
I see you have a sense of humor :)
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The problem with a Pentax is that it is not supported by software from Phase?
I see you have a sense of humor :)
The problem with the Pentax *for my usage* is that it doesn't fit into my workflow.
I see that you lack comprehension skills.
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I don't think the pentax is any game changer at all in MF space in the short term. The price difference was there even before we started to get CMOS.
I think it's more likely to "steal" DSLR users than to steal users from hassy and phase. As synn points out it's not only about the camera, it's about the workflow.
Oh well, it could be a game changer in the longer term, new photographers don't start with MF, the good ones will know how to produce great results with DLSRs already, and the price/performance of Phase and Hassy does not look better after this which may mean that it's less likely that people will upgrade to MF in the future. I think that was already happening though. Turning into making it a luxury and status product (where high price is an advantage) may be the solution, Hassy is already trying that path.
Pentax is right there with the flagship 135 DSLRs in pricing so any 135 user that wants a fatter camera I think the Pentax will look quite good. With CMOS functionality you don't need to sacrifice as many 135 features either so I think more 135 users may be interested in upgrading now than before when it was CCD based.
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The problem with the Pentax
Don't see any problem with the Pentax today as long as it will tether and with usb 3 I assume they have plans for that.
I looked at the original, got very close, but the tethering, small buffer and they were just bought by Ricoh and got very quiet made me hold off.
But when you look at it the price two pentax is the cost of one phase backand with the pentax you get the complete camera.
With the same sensor should be quite close in quality. In regards to lens prices, they're equal to all medium format lenses, so they're not off the scale or too high.
It looks like a good deal.
IMO
BC
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Don't see any problem with the Pentax
I was only responding to the snarky post with that remark. I don't see any "problem" with the Pentax, just pointing out that it is not a universal solution.
My thoughts on it are in the original post.
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Nice idea, but I'm not interested, and neither I suspect will most MF users who buy in to a system, not just a camera body. Where the Pentax might be more successful is in attracting some DSLR users from the higher end amateur market.
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im interested if it tethers. I'm looking at various 36-40 mp options and the pentax will probably be in the running once the specs/price gets officially announced.
in fact buying 2 of the options i'm looking at would be on budget.
not seen any knock on for prices of h4d-40/iq-140 kit yet due to the new backs/cameras from phamiyablad but i expect that will happen soon.
the fact is all the options are flawed in some way and nothing is screaming 'buy me' which is why i'm thinking 2 cheaper systems are going to be better than 1.
be interested to see if the rental/dealers in london pick the pentax up or steer clear to protect their profits on leaf/HB/phase
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im interested if it tethers. I'm looking at various 36-40 mp options and the pentax will probably be in the running once the specs/price gets officially announced.
in fact buying 2 of the options i'm looking at would be on budget.
not seen any knock on for prices of h4d-40/iq-140 kit yet due to the new backs/cameras from phamiyablad but i expect that will happen soon.
the fact is all the options are flawed in some way and nothing is screaming 'buy me' which is why i'm thinking 2 cheaper systems are going to be better than 1.
be interested to see if the rental/dealers in london pick the pentax up or steer clear to protect their profits on leaf/HB/phase
There's a deal on the Credo 40 at the moment.
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probably but you need to enter into some kind of dialogue with a dealer who wants to talk about the camera and build up a bit of a myth surrounding it then let you know the price. in this digital age you do not need to pay a 'web guy' £50/hour to update the 'constantly fluctuating prices' so no i will not 'call for price' just tell me on your website how much it is?
rant over, on with the discussion about the new pentax.
edit: they actually put the price on the website! £9300+vat well done peartree rental. now is that the real price?
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probably but you need to enter into some kind of dialogue with a dealer who wants to talk about the camera and build up a bit of a myth surrounding it then let you know the price. in this digital age you do not need to pay a 'web guy' £50/hour to update the 'constantly fluctuating prices' so no i will not 'call for price' just tell me on your website how much it is?
rant over, on with the discussion about the new pentax.
edit: they actually put the price on the website! £9300+vat well done peartree rental. now is that the real price?
Yeah.
That's the price everywhere. You can buy it from B&H if you wanted to and avoid any sort of dialog.
p.s. Mamiyaleaf prices have always been advertised on dealer websites. It's only Phase prices that have been "Call to ask".
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I think the Pentax 645 could be a game changer if its video is any good. That won't concern me directly, and may not concern people from this forum, but the idea that one could get a "special MF look" on movies with that camera may attract filmmakers. Some of them have large budgets.
This is what happened with the Canon 5D Mark II. It was not a very good movie camera, but crowds of filmmakers bought it nevertheless for its special look. It changed the market.
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How is the AF on Pentax ?
And does it have more than one af-point?
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Seen from my eyes, Pentax has at least one problem called Otus.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Seen from my eyes, Pentax has at least one problem called Otus.
Cheers,
Bernard
You're right.
It has an even worse problem which is the cheaper Zeiss 50 on cheap Sony bodies, present and upcoming.
It's time medium format went back to 6x6 or 6x7, 35mm lenses are getting too good compâred to the legacy MF stuff out there.
Edmund
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I've thought the same thing but a set of 3 Otus , WA, Norm and Tele would add easily $12k. In my point of view and personal shooting modes, it may be better to me to buy a 645DII and a wide and use my CF V lenses with an adapter. However, I'll wait for Kina to make any decision and that includes also anything about the A7R. In the meantime I'll fantasize about a mirrorless Pentax 645. Eduardo.
Seen from my eyes, Pentax has at least one problem called Otus.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I think the Pentax will become the workhorse "marriage" camera in Japan and Korea within a year, which means thousands of sales. Phase are an entertaining brand, but ultimately something needs to replace the ubiquituous Hassy, and $80K systems (two bodies, lenses) are not going to cut it in the current economy.
Edmund
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The 645D was not a big hit for several reasons. The main one being that it just did not have much (if any) Image Quality advantages over the D800E. Resolution was about the same and Dynamic Range a touch less on the Pentax. The 645D II changes that (from the info available so far). As a camera body the 645D is just about the best one can get in Medium Format for field use. It is weather sealed, the AF works very well, it feels solid in hand and has enough features and controls that one does not feel that one is giving up a whole lot when compared to the latest DSLRs.
For wide angle Landscapes I still think that the PhaseOne 60 and 80MP backs along with tech camera lenses and bodies are untouched in regards to absolute image quality potential. The sheer amount of resolution and control is just in a whole nother level.
The IQ250 tests on tech cameras look promising but keep in mind that you give up quite a bit of angle of view when using any lens (compared to the 60/80mp with its larger sensors) so wide angle capability is quite limited.
The downsides of the Pentax 645D have been mentioned many times. Mainly very limited service and support in the US, limited tethering capability (if any), tethering reliability and functionality is also limited, lens line (current, new lenses) is also limited and new/used lenses vary in mechanical and optical quality. (although like the Mamiya, there are plenty of legacy lenses available at great prices). Also, No AF leaf shutter lenses are available for the Pentax.
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From my point of view, "what is the best camera" can be interpreted in two ways:
1. What camera produces the best images in varying and difficult conditions? Canon / Nikon
2. What camera produces the best images in ideal/controlled conditions and also tethered? Phase/Hasselblad
Pentax seem to be introducing some kind of hybrid, which will not be able to beat Phase in ideal conditions, and also will not be able to beat 1Dx in harsh conditions. I'm sure there's a segment of consumers that is waiting for it, but I would be very surprised if it turned out to be a "game changer".
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From my point of view, "what is the best camera" can be interpreted in two ways:
1. What camera produces the best images in varying and difficult conditions? Canon / Nikon
2. What camera produces the best images in ideal/controlled conditions and also tethered? Phase/Hasselblad
Pentax seem to be introducing some kind of hybrid, which will not be able to beat Phase in ideal conditions, and also will not be able to beat 1Dx in harsh conditions. I'm sure there's a segment of consumers that is waiting for it, but I would be very surprised if it turned out to be a "game changer".
The new CMOS sensor does digital output. Pentax should do as well as Phase and Hassy in any third party converter from the quality point of view, provided Pentax can get the heat dissipation issues under control.
I would be very surprised if Pentax with its huge resources and experience cannot put some stellar lenses out there. And there is one thing we all know: As soon as there are buyers, there is supply.
Let's be clear about one thing: Pentax have real MF experience, internal lens design teams, production teams, existing distribution channels, working 35mm camera software that has given them image processing experience, and a very respected name. Oh, and yes they even already have one "tryout" camera out there which has been well received.
These are not lightweights, amateurs or idiots, with a "good enough mentality" like all the Phase groupies here portray them. They are serious business people with staying power, and ability to invest. And if that weren't enough, they have the support of Samsung who know a thing or two about electronics.
I think that Leica has demonstrated quite well that expertise in camera design can rapidly translate into a competitive MF product; there is no reason that Pentax should not be able to put out a lens line if Leica has done so.
Edmund
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Camera building is a very complicate business that takes many years to perfect into market leadership.
Pentax, for sure, have excellent skills in building camera bodies.
Regarding lenses, the game now is different than what it used to be, and their good past does not guarantee that they would be able to compete against the best in class of today. Their MF lens line have been severely lacking for years - what is the reason for that I do not know, but I am also not completely sure they will be able to roll out a full range of the highest quality lenses. I don't know how much that costs and how much it takes, but judging by how other companies do it, it sounds excruciating.
As far as sensors, making a sensor that produces the best possible picture is a very special game.
Still to this day, with all of their resources, Canon and Nikon are still not able to match Phase and leaf in image quality.
Only some of it is because they are using smaller sensors - the colors I get from my 5D3 are much worse than what I get from my Credo.
It was the same with all my past Canons and Leafs.
Nobody is saying that Pentax is not a serious company - but I think it is very hard to say that for sure they will be able to produce a system that will give equal or better image quality than Phase.
Regarding Leica, it took them many years to roll out their S lenses line.
In the first 2-3 years their system was not viable for most professionals because the lens line was incomplete.
For me their macro lens today is insufficient and I will not use that system because of that (1:2, f/22).
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Camera building is a very complicate business that takes many years to perfect into market leadership.
Pentax, for sure, have excellent skills in building camera bodies.
Regarding lenses, the game now is different than what it used to be, and their good past does not guarantee that they would be able to compete against the best in class of today. Their MF lens line have been severely lacking for years - what is the reason for that I do not know, but I am also not completely sure they will be able to roll out a full range of the highest quality lenses. I don't know how much that costs and how much it takes, but judging by how other companies do it, it sounds excruciating.
As far as sensors, making a sensor that produces the best possible picture is a very special game.
Still to this day, with all of their resources, Canon and Nikon are still not able to match Phase and leaf in image quality.
Only some of it is because they are using smaller sensors - the colors I get from my 5D3 are much worse than what I get from my Credo.
It was the same with all my past Canons and Leafs.
Nobody is saying that Pentax is not a serious company - but I think it is very hard to say that for sure they will be able to produce a system that will give equal or better image quality than Phase.
The best argument Phase will have going for it is inertia, and its software. What you are preaching is called "Fear, Uncertainty Doubt" in the computer industry, and was invented by IBM and reused with good results by Microsoft until the day they became unable with Vista to produce even a remotely usable product.
I had a Phase back. It had no decent lenses (Schneiders were not yet out), a bad body (Mamiya AFDII), and remarkably beautiful files on the days there was enough light to focus. Phase have since improved their product, but I am sure Pentax will be able to do at least as well; the sensor is not going to be an issue - Pentax have extensive experience in integrating electronic cameras.
Edmund
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"Camera building is a very complicate business that takes many years to perfect into market leadership.
Pentax, for sure, have excellent skills in building camera bodies."
So did mamiya yet Phase are still flogging a dead horse.
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I had a Phase back. It had no decent lenses (Schneiders were not yet out), a bad body (Mamiya AFDII), and very nice files on the days there was enough light to focus.
Exactly, Otus is not only Pentax's problem... This is not anymore about DSLRs catching up, it is about the superior look and technical qualities of the best 35mm recent lenses compared to MF SLR lenses as a whole. Sigma is there already as well.
MF players have a hard time building a lens line up in the first place. Keeping up with the pace of improvement defined by large volume players is simply impossible. Their small volume/high prices model is hurting badly in the lens area too.
It is already mostly the case with the D800 and will be even more clear with the next generation of bodies.
Cheers,
Bernard
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You should have offered your colorimeter at $120, that was your mistake, not the dealer's.
If your Phase experience is from the days of AFD II, then the system you remember is totally diffent than what is offered today.
You didn't address the point of why should we think that Pentax can do what Canon can't do.
I'm not such a big fan of Phase, the company does a lot of things wrong. But their image quality under best conditions is the best (not in low light like you said), and their lenses are for sure far ahead of anything in 35mm - even the ones before Schneider.
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"I'm not such a big fan of Phase, the company does a lot of things wrong. But their image quality under best conditions is the best (not in low light like you said), and their lenses are for sure far ahead of anything in 35mm - even the ones before Schneider."
I don't agree on this. I would say the best lenses for Canon/Nikon now are at least as good as the new
Schneider-lenses for Phase one. Some are better in most ways.
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I love the Phase One and Leaf backs, but I am afraid the only real advantage they will have
over Pentax in the future will be that the backs can be put on tecnical cameras.
If pentax wants, what will just a 50 mp cmos-back cost from them? 5.000$???
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I love the Phase One and Leaf backs, but I am afraid the only real advantage they will have
over Pentax in the future will be that the backs can be put on tecnical cameras.
If pentax wants, what will just a 50 mp cmos-back cost from them? 5.000$???
Probably no more than 1,000 US$.
Thanks to Pentax.
Cheers,
Bernard
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You didn't address the point of why should we think that Pentax can do what Canon can't do.
As far as Canon goes, it clearly seems that someone very influential inside the company has decisive opinions about 3 things:
- growth is in video,
- the 5DIII/6D sensor is good enough for photographers,
- Canon's sensors will remain an in house thing.
So their current failure in the high end is the result of some executive decisions/mental blocks.
Just like some people inside Nikon used to think that high iso image quality was good enough with their ridiculous D2H.
So Pentax can mostly because they want to.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I'm not sure canon are failing in the high end at all.
1Dx sales have been crazy , its the sports camera to go for.
5d3 sales have been crazy. OK its not a 14 stop 36mp camera but for 98% of people it is the best all round shooting machine this side of $10k. FPS, af, build ergonomics its a complete tool and a great wedding/pj/sports tog camera.
6d must be selling like mad too (this is really a 5dmk3 to be fair, the 5d3 is more like a mythical 3d).
70d again must be selling like mad.
And canon is trucking glass out like its candy.
The 645D mkII will eat some canon high end sales in limited areas, those that used 1dsmkIII and want more resolution and havnt gone to nikon.
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I'm not sure canon are failing in the high end at all.
1Dx sales have been crazy , its the sports camera to go for.
5d3 sales have been crazy. OK its not a 14 stop 36mp camera but for 98% of people it is the best all round shooting machine this side of $10k. FPS, af, build ergonomics its a complete tool and a great wedding/pj/sports tog camera.
The high end I meant is the 2% you are talking about here (although I think it is more like 10% but we'll never know for sure). My guess is that ~75% of the contributors at LL fit in those 2%. Sports cameras are a draw between the 1Dx and the D4s and I don't see that changing. That's a stable niche interesting about 0.2% of the DSLR market. ;)
Besides, the 5DIII is the best all round camera for only one category of people, those already owning Canon glass. For the rest of the market, that best all round camera is the D800. The hordes of Canon shooters investing in the Sony a7r are a clear confirmation of this.
But anyway, great if you are happy about Canon's line up. I would clearly not if I had Canon glass and this view has nothing to do with the fact that I own many Nikon F lenses.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard,
Canon probably accounts for half the full-frame sensors sold, maybe for half of all SLRs. They have customised fabs of their own for sensors, so it makes sense for them to design their own. CMOS imagers are Canon's core competence. It will be interesting to see what process they move to for the next generation, and whether they make their own steppers for that.
Edmund
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1Dx sales have been crazy , its the sports camera to go for.5d3 sales have been crazy
6d must be selling like mad too
70d again must be selling like mad.
And canon is trucking glass out like its candy.
Meanwhile in the real world:
For the year, DSLR sales were off about 15% to 13.8m units.
The results in Canon's Imaging group were not good. The first year-to-year decline in interchangeable lens cameras, for instance (-7% in shipments, with a further -1% decline predicted for the coming year)
Operating profit for the group was down slightly year-to-year for the Canon Imaging Group
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/camera-company-financials.html
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This reflects the reduction of disposable of a significant fraction of their customers. In the west, there are more very rich people who can and do buy Phase and Ferrari; fewer well of people who can afford to buy a new TV or an SLR.
Canon will still keep its CMOS tech because chips are one of their core competences; lenses are another.
Edmund
Meanwhile in the real world:
For the year, DSLR sales were off about 15% to 13.8m units.
The results in Canon's Imaging group were not good. The first year-to-year decline in interchangeable lens cameras, for instance (-7% in shipments, with a further -1% decline predicted for the coming year)
Operating profit for the group was down slightly year-to-year for the Canon Imaging Group
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/camera-company-financials.html
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As a few people said, Canon is not failing to make a high end camera, they are just not interested.
Their 1Dx and 5D3 are dominating their segments, and by Canon's calculations the segment above that is not worth the effort of R&D and setting up production lines.
Phase is targeting the segment of absolutely best quality price doesn't matter - a totally different market segment with different behaviours.
They are benefiting from people with too much money on their hands who will buy anything as long as it is the best.
Pentax MF is trying to lodge itself in between those two segments - how much of a demand is there really for it, and would the revenues return the investment - IMO it is not a very clear yes.
To those who say Pentax will deliver a system of higher or equal quality than Phase - I would be very interested to see that come to pass, but also surprised.
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[quote author=sbernthal link=topic=87281.msg710679#msg710679
To those who say Pentax will deliver a system of higher or equal quality than Phase - I would be very interested to see that come to pass, but also surprised.
[/quote]
My impression is that most of the heavy lifting is born by Sony's new digital sensor so I don't think file quality is an unknown at all, provided the sensor is fed clean power and heat is adequately dissipated.
The role of the backend in the new cameras seems to be basically limited to setting up the sensor, cycling it for capture and spooling the data to file. Pentax already have a working MF camera which is respected, and a line of 35mm devices, so they know how to handle the data streams.
On the other hand, tethering is a multitasking problem that Phase have solved but Pentax have not previously addressed, and I would assume that for tethered use Phase will still lead by a fair distance.
The real headache for Phase will come from the movie use of these sensors, as at some point people will get the idea that if the movie can be streamed out it may become easier to do nonstrobe imaging and simply isolate still frames on a computer - with the additional ability of going to super-resolution.
Edmund
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I believe software is also quite significant in determining final image quality. I believe Pentax MFD image quality today is not quite as good as Phase.
To the best of my knowledge, movie recording can be done right now at a max of 4K resolution, which is not satisfactory for commercial stills. I think it would be very difficult to create a machine that would record movies whose frames are comparable In quality to stills. I believe this goals will be attained at some point, and will have critical effects on photography, but we are a few years away from it. If Pentax would have cracked that nut, it would have been all over the news already.
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I believe software is also quite significant in determining final image quality. I believe Pentax MFD image quality today is not quite as good as Phase.
To the best of my knowledge, movie recording can be done right now at a max of 4K resolution, which is not satisfactory for commercial stills. I think it would be very difficult to create a machine that would record movies whose frames are comparable In quality to stills. I believe this goals will be attained at some point, and will have critical effects on photography, but we are a few years away from it. If Pentax would have cracked that nut, it would have been all over the news already.
This is the big breakthrough with the Sony CMOS sensor: It is digital, and outputs image data directly, where a CCD sensor needs the camera manufacturer to implement very carefully designed read circuitry.
As for movies, one reason for Sony's creation of this sensor may be precisely that they wish to have a test bed for very high rez experimental TV programming which could then justify the new highrez displays which Japanese and Korean manufacturers want to sell.
Whatever you believe, the 50MP Sony sensor with its 24 frame/sec movie abilities is *real* and in fact has been real for a couple of years now it would seem. I don't know how one can get that data off the chip and store it, but probably Sony hopes to sell you the device which can do it.
I think we'll see a revolution in fashion shooting with people picking frames from hi-rez movies. Tethering as we know it is going to die.
Edmund
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Does it exist? Not on the Pentax site.
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Whatever you believe, the 50MP Sony sensor with its 24 frame/sec movie abilities is *real* and in fact has been real for a couple of years now it would seem. I don't know how one can get that data off the chip and store it, but probably Sony hopes to sell you the device which can do it.
What are it's movie abilities though?
What resolutions can it pull off 24 frames/second at?
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What are it's movie abilities though?
What resolutions can it pull off 24 frames/second at?
That is the interesting question which we are all waiting to see answered :)
Depends on the electronics around the sensor, I guess, the cooling and whether or not you've paid the "movie fee".
As someone pointed out, the only difference between a Canon 1Dx and a 1Dc seems to be a better heatsink and the price.
Edmund
Edmund
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Whatever you believe, the 50MP Sony sensor with its 24 frame/sec movie abilities is *real* and in fact has been real for a couple of years now it would seem.
The only 24fps capability I have read about is for live view, which could be massively sub-sampled to produce an image adequate for live view, but not much good for movie recording. For example, reading just every fifth pixel of every fifth line would give about 1600x1200, which is more than any current EVF can display AFAIK.
Aside on EVF resolution counting: EVFs described as "2.36MP" have XGA resolution of 1024 x 768 or a bit under 1MP, using the magical counting of 1024 wide x 768 high x 3 colors displayed at each location, as with the Epson model L3F04X-8x that is probably used in the Olympus E-M1 and the accessory EVF model VF-4:
http://global.epson.com/newsroom/2013/news_20130122.html
http://global.epson.com/products/htps/products/pdf/f04x8.pdf
http://global.epson.com/products/htps/products/index.html
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As a few people said, Canon is not failing to make a high end camera, they are just not interested.
Their 1Dx and 5D3 are dominating their segments, and by Canon's calculations the segment above that is not worth the effort of R&D and setting up production lines.
Sony is selling a LOT of A7R's thx to Canon's failure to improve their full frame sensor image quality. Same with Nikon's D800 and D800E. Quite a few people switched to Nikon because of that product. Yes, it is a niche (of people that require higher MP and Dynamic range) but it is not by any means irrelevant and the photography market is made of up a bunch of niches isn't it?
Canon is not innovating much. Look at what a company like fuji has done. And Sony. Mirrorless is the future in high end interchangeable lens cameras, well, in fact, it is the present. Check out THIS (http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/02/17/cp-2014-nikon-interview-our-cameras-need-to-evolve?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=news-list&utm_medium=text&ref=title_0_1) interview of Nikon Execs.
"Why do you think that mirrorless has been relatively slow to gain popularity in Europe and America?
Let’s talk about North America because that’s one of the worst geographies when it comes to the mirrorless camera market. The market for our mirrorless cameras is not growing there. We’re still studying the reasons but we believe that North American customers believe that if they want image quality they’re supposed to buy DSLRs, not mirrorless. In reality, mirrorless can offer high image quality, it’s just a smaller system, but the American customers don’t view it in that way."
Well, looking at Canon's and Nikon's mirror less offerings might answer that question better. They are simply subpar and people are not willing to take a huge downgrade in image quality from a DSLR. Imagine a Nikon or Canon branded Fuji XT1-like camera with a full frame 24mp or 36mp sensor and excellent AF performance.
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Canon is not innovating much. Look at what a company like fuji has done.
and what fuji done exactly ? xtrans layout ? which is not really capable to compete w/ regular CFA layouts ... so all the "advatage" from getting rid of AA filter is killed then by demosaick ;D ...
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. Imagine a Nikon or Canon branded Fuji XT1-like camera with a full frame 24mp or 36mp sensor and excellent AF performance.
you mean E-M1 or GH4 like camera, because those run circles around Kaisen-ridden (translation - we can't get anything right from the first 10 attempts, so may be 10 more) Fuji.
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Fuji is making some outstanding camera bodies and some very nice lenses. They could certainly use a better sensor like the one in the Pentax K3 which I believe is made by Toshiba. So the Fuji XT1 is basically a camera looking for a sensor although the one they have is more than acceptable for many users. But it certain isn't class leading (APS-C size class).
The Oly EM1 is an outstanding body with a good sensor (not great) and the GH4 should be even better.
Also, I am talking in regards to still image quality and still image capture functionality (and all my previous comments in regards to lack of Canon innovation)
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Pentax wil hold its stake and expand with the new 645d CMOS.
Phase will probably not be much influenced by this.
What may finally rise price discussions will be the release of the new Leica S(3?) with cmos when they stick with their actual pricepoint around 20k $
(which I suspect heavily).
I wish Phase all the best, but I hope they may not come into a situation like Sigma with the SD1.
The back definitely is good, the CMOS decision is right, just the pricing should have been done a bit more mixed calculation with lenses and bodies total turnaround.
As it is now the customer number will probably stay constant, with some raise on existing customers who will buy an additional body to complete their portfolio
on existing lenses and bodies, for them the 30000 (?) $ will make sense.
For a complete new buyer I have doubts about that.
The CMOS could have been a new entry for fresh customers from the fashion and people scene. Right now I think the positioning on the market is not "helpful".
So I hope I am wrong, because I´m sure this CMOS is a big investment for a small company and it also takes resources to devellop which are not infinite.
It is doomed to be successful, if not......
Greetings from Germany
Stefan
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Is there a Mamiya lens to Pentax 645d camera adapter? I thought about replacing D800E with new Pentax (one day), but keeping DF and IQ back. It would be nice to use existing Mamiya/Phase One lenses on Pentax. I don't need infinity, just macro work (Phase One 120mm lens).
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and what fuji done exactly ? xtrans layout ? which is not really capable to compete w/ regular CFA layouts ... so all the "advatage" from getting rid of AA filter is killed then by demosaick ;D ...
Layout from x-trans can be challenging, but with the right raw converter, results from it can be very impressive. See Capture One, 7.x or the Iridient raw developer.
Paul C.
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Is there a Mamiya lens to Pentax 645d camera adapter? I thought about replacing D800E with new Pentax (one day), but keeping DF and IQ back. It would be nice to use existing Mamiya/Phase One lenses on Pentax. I don't need infinity, just macro work (Phase One 120mm lens).
I looked into this back early days of the 645D. As I recell the focal flange distance between the two cameras is the same and an adapter pushes you past infinity, however as you mentioned Macro you should be OK. SK grimes may be able to make a custom adapter for you.
Paul C.
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I looked into this back early days of the 645D. As I recell the focal flange distance between the two cameras is the same and an adapter pushes you past infinity, however as you mentioned Macro you should be OK. SK grimes may be able to make a custom adapter for you.
Paul C.
Thanks Paul!
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I think we'll see a revolution in fashion shooting with people picking frames from hi-rez movies. Tethering as we know it is going to die.
Edmund
Edmund,
Next you'll be dreaming of flying cars and free energy.
I wouldn't hold your breath for a combined still and motion camera that every frame would work in both still and motion content.
Compared to the movie camera industry, still cameras, heck all still equipment is consumer priced.
There is this scream that a $35,000 Phase back is expensive (it is ), but in the cinema world $35,000 is just a semi fast zoom and prime lens.
Sure you can buy a RED for the same price, until you add fans, rails, boxes, basic stands and a decent fluid head and your into $80,000 before you ever strike a lamp, or mount a lens.
A 2k Arri is 80 grand just for a body and capture media for motion can be $20,000 just for a basic shoot.
We have a project in house that's motion and stills and the equipment we put into the room is about $380,000 and that's not a huge project.
In the cinema world, that's just scratching the surface.
So my point . . . If Pentax or phase or Hasselblad came out with a 8k camera that shot stills and motion at the same time I would be surprised, actually shocked, especially at the Pentax price of 10k.
For one the data collection would be overwhelming. Even with compression, 24 fps of a 50mpx compressed to 1/2 and run in a three minute session would be shocking.
Not including how hot a 50mpx camera would get pushing out that volume of data. A RED that runs for an hour is hot, real hot and you know to turn it off when you can, regardless of the fans.
How something like Panasonic's gh4 can push 200mbs out of that small package and not melt is probably a wonder of science and yes we've retouched video files into stills if everything falls right, like your shooting waist up and your willing to put many hours into post work,
but to think you just turn it on, set it at 2,000 iso, shoot all day and have stills and motion just isn't reasonable today.
We should be amazed that C-1 or Lightroom can take 2,000 raw files, debayer them make previews and allow for correction on a simple desktop or laptop computer, with a software suite that costs $300
When I put my first 4k red project into an 8 core desktop the first clip at 1/2 debayer took 6 hours to process out to 2k. Two hours later i bought two RED rockets and at $4,500 each.
Imagine if Phase one required a $4,500 graphic card to run c-1?
The difference between high end motion and high end stills is few client's would care if you shot with a d800, some acute heads a few softboxes and c stands, running to a laptop.
You can do the same with a phase back, Briese lights, Matthews rollers, and up the equipment price 30 fold, but most still clients wouldn't notice the difference as long as they got the look they wanted.
In motion setting up a gh3 (or Canon 1dc) on a small tripod and some 500 watt tungsten lights might produce a great look (if your careful) but for a high end motion project there would be some serious discussion on where the money went.
Then somebody has to view it. I have clients that can't view a 2k prorezz without restarting their I-macs, and that's at 4:2:2. I had one european agency ask for an uncompressed 3 minute video with produced at 2k 4:4:4 and yes we could conform it out but they never could view it.
Sure there are third party graphic cards, breakout boxes, ways to view high end motion, but how many print art directors working on a two year old I mac are going to have that equipment?
There may come a time where one camera does all, but i seriously doubt it. I don't think even one still camera can do it all, but as still photographers we're somewhat spoiled.
So $35,000 for a digital back seems like a lot, $10,000 for the Pentax seems like a bargain, a d800 seems like a miracle.
Now like Stefen, I think the phase $35,000 back is a huge bite into a photographer's budget, regardless of their billing, considering what everything in production costs today.
Also you need to tack on a new computer to run C1 7, so your really at $39,000 plus body and lenses and that is getting into high territory given the fact we all know that the electronic mantra is to up the mpx in 18 months time, especially when Nikon or Canon comes out with 40 mpx for $5,000.
Pentax could find an opening if they built a tethering suite and got more and a little less costly lenses out in the market, but Pentax seems to be a company that dribbles out information at a very slow rate.
I must admit I'm a little surprised that with adding cmos that none of the camera makers has offered a mirrorless solution, but maybe I'm dreaming of flying cars.
IMO
BC
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Hi BC,
Being expensive is not really an advantage. There are advantage worth paying for and that can come expensive.
Now, if you can add an algorithm that can record 4K video at low cost you will add it, because it costs little.
One reason that DSLR video is bad is that they use line skipping. The OLP filter is intended for around 4000 pixel vertical resolution, so to get 1080P you skip 3 lines of four. So you either get massive moiré or a soft images. Mostly you get both.
Now, you can sample the full sensor, but you need to downscale to 1080P in real time, it can be done, the Sony 10RX does it and I guess the Panasonic cameras have done it for a long time.
Now, with an 8K image you can probably downsample to 4K video with very little effort. Once the technology is at hand, you can as well implement it.
So I guess it is very well possible that we see Edmunds ideas implemented, because the technology is around the corner and you can implement it almost free.
Best regards
Erik
Edmund,
Next you'll be dreaming of flying cars and free energy.
I wouldn't hold your breath for a combined still and motion camera that every frame would work in both still and motion content.
Compared to the movie camera industry, still cameras, heck all still equipment is consumer priced.
There is this scream that a $35,000 Phase back is expensive (it is ), but in the cinema world $35,000 is just a semi fast zoom and prime lens.
Sure you can buy a RED for the same price, until you add fans, rails, boxes, basic stands and a decent fluid head and your into $80,000 before you ever strike a lamp, or mount a lens.
A 2k Arri is 80 grand just for a body and capture media for motion can be $20,000 just for a basic shoot.
We have a project in house that's motion and stills and the equipment we put into the room is about $380,000 and that's not a huge project.
In the cinema world, that's just scratching the surface.
So my point . . . If Pentax or phase or Hasselblad came out with a 8k camera that shot stills and motion at the same time I would be surprised, actually shocked, especially at the Pentax price of 10k.
For one the data collection would be overwhelming. Even with compression, 24 fps of a 50mpx compressed to 1/2 and run in a three minute session would be shocking.
Not including how hot a 50mpx camera would get pushing out that volume of data. A RED that runs for an hour is hot, real hot and you know to turn it off when you can, regardless of the fans.
How something like Panasonic's gh4 can push 200mbs out of that small package and not melt is probably a wonder of science and yes we've retouched video files into stills if everything falls right, like your shooting waist up and your willing to put many hours into post work,
but to think you just turn it on, set it at 2,000 iso, shoot all day and have stills and motion just isn't reasonable today.
We should be amazed that C-1 or Lightroom can take 2,000 raw files, debayer them make previews and allow for correction on a simple desktop or laptop computer, with a software suite that costs $300
When I put my first 4k red project into an 8 core desktop the first clip at 1/2 debayer took 6 hours to process out to 2k. Two hours later i bought two RED rockets and at $4,500 each.
Imagine if Phase one required a $4,500 graphic card to run c-1?
The difference between high end motion and high end stills is few client's would care if you shot with a d800, some acute heads a few softboxes and c stands, running to a laptop.
You can do the same with a phase back, Briese lights, Matthews rollers, and up the equipment price 30 fold, but most still clients wouldn't notice the difference as long as they got the look they wanted.
In motion setting up a gh3 (or Canon 1dc) on a small tripod and some 500 watt tungsten lights might produce a great look (if your careful) but for a high end motion project there would be some serious discussion on where the money went.
Then somebody has to view it. I have clients that can't view a 2k prorezz without restarting their I-macs, and that's at 4:2:2. I had one european agency ask for an uncompressed 3 minute video with produced at 2k 4:4:4 and yes we could conform it out but they never could view it.
Sure there are third party graphic cards, breakout boxes, ways to view high end motion, but how many print art directors working on a two year old I mac are going to have that equipment?
There may come a time where one camera does all, but i seriously doubt it. I don't think even one still camera can do it all, but as still photographers we're somewhat spoiled.
So $35,000 for a digital back seems like a lot, $10,000 for the Pentax seems like a bargain, a d800 seems like a miracle.
Now like Stefen, I think the phase $35,000 back is a huge bite into a photographer's budget, regardless of their billing, considering what everything in production costs today.
Also you need to tack on a new computer to run C1 7, so your really at $39,000 plus body and lenses and that is getting into high territory given the fact we all know that the electronic mantra is to up the mpx in 18 months time, especially when Nikon or Canon comes out with 40 mpx for $5,000.
Pentax could find an opening if they built a tethering suite and got more and a little less costly lenses out in the market, but Pentax seems to be a company that dribbles out information at a very slow rate.
I must admit I'm a little surprised that with adding cmos that none of the camera makers has offered a mirrorless solution, but maybe I'm dreaming of flying cars.
IMO
BC
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See Capture One, 7.x or the Iridient raw developer.
I saw - not impressed... neither vs E-M1 (w/o AA) nor vs A7 (with AA)... now granted Fuji has experience in color second only to Kodak and X-A1 shows that xtrans was/is really a marketing trick... and not that successfull either... hopefull Fuji will trop that when they migrate to 24mp sensors
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James,
This stuff is coming; I'm sure that Sony have the hardware up and running at full video rate in their labs. I can read the signs. How long it will take to come to market is anybody's guess.
I really don't know about usability - but don't expect progress to stand still: Remember how the 5D2 came from nowhere overnight, a stealth "feature" embedded in a vanilla prosumer dSLR, that changed the face of the whole video/small budget film/TV industry.
You and I know that print is dying. But hi-rez video content is just being born.
Edmund
PS. BTW, I used to be a computer *scientist*. That means I and my friends would routinely run computations on farms of workstations for thousands of hours. The expense didn't frighten us - it was what we were supposed to do. And the methods we previewed would then a few years later run on a telephone or a games console. Such is progress, the extraordinarily expensive experience of jet flying reduced in just a few years to the banale aspects of getting one's colostomy bag inspected :)
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Such is progress, the extraordinarily expensive experience of jet flying reduced in just a few years to the banale aspects of getting one's colostomy bag inspected :)
LOL
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi,
Technical cameras like the Hartblei HCam and the Alpa FPS are actually mirrorless, both can take Canon lenses with automatic aperture control.
Initially the HCam was on my shopping list, right now I don't know.
Best regards
Erik
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I must admit I'm a little surprised that with adding cmos that none of the camera makers has offered a mirrorless solution, but maybe I'm dreaming of flying cars.
IMO
BC
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Not sure why anyone thinks the 645DII will shoot anything other than 1080? That's the spec to expect. Still, done right, that could be huge. With the right codec, audio inputs, etc, Pentax could find itself selling a *lot* of cameras to people who think $10K is a tad expensive.....for lunch, but not for a video camera.
And it sure doesn't sound like Phase of Blad will be stealing any of those sales.
- N.
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As far as Canon goes, it clearly seems that someone very influential inside the company has decisive opinions about 3 things:
- growth is in video,
- the 5DIII/6D sensor is good enough for photographers,
- Canon's sensors will remain an in house thing.
So their current failure in the high end is the result of some executive decisions/mental blocks.
Just like some people inside Nikon used to think that high iso image quality was good enough with their ridiculous D2H.
So Pentax can mostly because they want to.
Cheers,
Bernard
Their current high end works just fine. I could of switched to a 800 for the price of the X. In practical terms the only thing a 800 gave me was more pixels, which is both a blessing and a hinderance. I shot briefly the D4, 800 and X side by side, all very good cameras, I went with the X and it's been a stunningly good camera. That 12fps is really useful for handheld aerial stitching/compositing and it's very good at the low light shooting. If all the other stuff was really necessary to getting commercially saleable results I would had to have been shooting a Phaseone years ago.
I'm waiting to see what those new Sigma cameras produce, regardless of pixel count DR etc if the image has something the others do not I'll add a couple to the bag. Sony, Nikon, Olympus don't really offer anything to me that's worth the switch, they all give you pretty much the same. Come to think of it my old Kodak SLR/n files still look as good as anything about today.
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Come to think of it my old Kodak SLR/n files still look as good as anything about today.
ISO6 was good, that's about the only thing I liked about the SLR/n...
Cheers,
Bernard
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This thread is finally turning in my direction. I loved the files from my slr/c (which was beyond repair and long gone) and continue to use my Hasselblad V gear and v96c back. If I read between the lines of many of the comments here, it looks like we are heading towards a world where the files from every camera will look exactly the same and only elaborate processing recipes will give our work any sort of personal character.
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If I read between the lines of many of the comments here, it looks like we are heading towards a world where the files from every camera will look exactly the same and only elaborate processing recipes will give our work any sort of personal character.
Which is precisely why some of us still shoot film...
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Which is precisely why some of us still shoot film...
Spot on, the further digital goes the down the road the better film looks to me, if only I could make film commercially viable!
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Other than this thread I can't find any reference to this camera being a real obtainable camera, the entire spec and price comes from a site based on rumours. I've not found it on the Pentax site, the spec is to good to be true, if it exists I doubt the spec is half correct.
So other than a rumour site is there any information to be believed on this camera?
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Other than this thread I can't find any reference to this camera being a real obtainable camera, the entire spec and price comes from a site based on rumours. I've not found it on the Pentax site, the spec is to good to be true, if it exists I doubt the spec is half correct.
So other than a rumour site is there any information to be believed on this camera?
There is a lot of speculation getting misrepresented as fact, so it might help to look at the few solid facts that we have so far.
First, an official press release from Ricoh:
http://www.us.ricoh-imaging.com/about/press/324/RICOH_IMAGING_to_Exhibit_Four_Reference_Products_at__CP+_2014_Camera_and_Photo_Imaging_Show which includes:
DENVER, CO, February 5, 2014 – RICOH IMAGING COMPANY, LTD. is pleased to announce the exhibition of four reference products at CP+ 2014, taking place February 13-16 at the Pacifico Yokohama convention center in Japan. Included in these reference products are a medium-format digital SLR camera, interchangeable lenses and camera accessories which are currently under development.
...
1. Medium-format digital SLR camera
Model name (tentative): PENTAX 645D 2014
• Latest, super-high-resolution CMOS image sensor
• High-speed response in a variety of photographic applications
• Tilt-type LCD monitor
• Market launch scheduled for Spring 2014
However, all that happened at CP+ was the display of a prototype under glass. There are some photos of that at places like http://www.pentaxforums.com/news/cp-2014-in-pictures.html, some linked below.
People are debating the new red-dot button, a few pieces of black tape concealing details like the label for that red dot button,
and a few small holes on the front not present in current model, which to some suggest a built-in microphone.
(http://www.pentaxforums.com/content/uploads/files/1/p1171/_IMG1571.JPG)
(http://www.pentaxforums.com/content/uploads/files/1/p1171/_IMG1570.JPG)
(http://www.pentaxforums.com/content/uploads/files/1/p1171/_IMG1572.JPG)
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Only remaining advantage seems to be the ability to use P1 / Hassy on tech cams and such stuff as wifi tethering.
But seriously: same sensor, less than a third of the price.
You may have the same sensor and I heavily considered the Pentax 645D when I was looking but implementations are different. And there is one big advantage to Hasselblad, Phase, Leaf, all those...
Leaf Shutters
Sync Speed as spec on the 645D is 1/125sec. On the Hasselblad bodies it is 1/800sec and on PhaseOne up to 1/1600sec
This makes a big difference for killing ambient light when using strobes.
I LOVE the pricing and the specs on the 645D. I love that lenses aren't likely to be up as much as my HC lenses ($3.5k - $5k+). When I get one in hand and see if for outdoor stuff some ND on there will suffice I may look at moving over. But this is one advantage that I still see with Hassy and PhaseOne. Also some features like True Focus on Hassy I use like crazy. May be less of an issue with the multiple focus points on the 645D, have to see.
Bill
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There are several Pentax leaf shutter lenses which work with the 645N (and by my understanding the 645D) including 75mm, 90mm (via Pentax 67 adapter), 135mm and 165mm (67 adapter again). These are all manual focus. With the AB-82 splitscreen in my 645N I find no problem with focusing, however.
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Hey Dag -
So when you do that is the focal plane shutter open and you get the advantage of higher sync speeds (like how the phase body is). I had thought this may be a possibility.
Do you know what the max shutter speed of those LS lenses are?
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Hey Dag -
So when you do that is the focal plane shutter open and you get the advantage of higher sync speeds (like how the phase body is). I had thought this may be a possibility.
Do you know what the max shutter speed of those LS lenses are?
For the 645 135mm it's 1/500s; the 645D also recognizes the lens.
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I looked into this back early days of the 645D. As I recell the focal flange distance between the two cameras is the same and an adapter pushes you past infinity, however as you mentioned Macro you should be OK. SK grimes may be able to make a custom adapter for you.
Paul C.
This isn't quite right, the Pentax 645 flange distance is 70.87mm and Mamiya 645 is 63.30mm.
I have an adapter plate to allow me to use Pentax lenses on a Mirex tilt/shift adapter for Mamiya 645 to EOS.
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This isn't quite right, the Pentax 645 flange distance is 70.87mm and Mamiya 645 is 63.30mm.
I have an adapter plate to allow me to use Pentax lenses on a Mirex tilt/shift adapter for Mamiya 645 to EOS.
:o where did you get that kind of an adaptor? ? I would love to have one!
Or are you talking about Pentax 67 to Mamiya 645?
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Sorry, just saw your question, the email notification isn't working. Mirex made it for me. This was before they started making the dedicated P645 to EOS tilt/shift adapter. I noticed that there should be enough space so I asked if they could make a P645 to M645 adapter so that I could use both Mamiya and Pentax 645 lenses on the EOS with their tilt/shift adapter. They made one for me but then decided to offer the dedicated P645 to EOS T/S adapter. It goes for a higher price so I guess that is their reasoning. They may be prepared to make another one though, I suggest you email Markus.