Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: wlemann on February 10, 2014, 01:51:22 pm
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So here is the scenario:
If you crop and spot a file, then create a VC does that include the cropping and spotting or does the VC only apply to the underlying Raw image?
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The VC should take on the attributes of the master prior to it's creation. If you want a VC that's untouched, you'd go back in History then make the VC.
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So that's good.
If I understand correctly, changes I want applied to all subsequent iterations, like spotting, can be done on the so called Master which now becomes the new Master and from which VC's can be made to do things from Basic adjustments to B+W conversions.
Do I have it correctly?
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If I understand correctly, changes I want applied to all subsequent iterations, like spotting, can be done on the so called Master which now becomes the new Master and from which VC's can be made to do things from Basic adjustments to B+W conversions.
Do I have it correctly?
Yes. The VC is 'stored' in the database. The 'master' is the source raw. All the edits are of course in the database too. I point this out as often, I'll work on various VC's to get a feel for what I want, then I'll end up with a hero. Since I'm paranoid about backing everything up, I'll save the hero VC as a DNG. Those edits and another 'copy' of the raw data so to speak is now self contained. So think of the Master as just the first set of instructions for editing that are associated with the raw. Raw is raw, it's never really touched in Adobe's products. The raw plus the instructions (sidecar, within the database) are what could be rendered to an image (TIFF, JPEG etc).
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Therein lies the question. Is this a hub and spoke model or a daisy chain model.
If the former, then the spotted image is really just the Raw data plus the Spotting "instructions" in which case it would seem that the VC is the Raw data only w/o the Spotting "instructions".
If the latter, then the spotted image, admittedly still the Raw plus the accompanying Spotting "instructions" becomes the basis for the VC.
Is my thinking correct or off base?
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Therein lies the question. Is this a hub and spoke model or a daisy chain model.
If the former, then the spotted image is really just the Raw data plus the Spotting "instructions" in which case it would seem that the VC is the Raw data only w/o the Spotting "instructions".
If the latter, then the spotted image, admittedly still the Raw plus the accompanying Spotting "instructions" becomes the basis for the VC.
Is my thinking correct or off base?
The raw is just the raw. It is read only. The instructions are just the instructions which can be used with the raw to produce a final rendered image.
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So maybe this is a better way to frame the question. Is it true that, until you have rendered a file to TIFF etc., the instructions are just one set of instructions. But if that is true how can you have multiple versions--one more contrasty, one B+W etc?
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So maybe this is a better way to frame the question. Is it true that, until you have rendered a file to TIFF etc., the instructions are just one set of instructions. But if that is true how can you have multiple versions--one more contrasty, one B+W etc?
There can be multiple instructions. VC 1 is one set, VC 2 is another. Master as you call it is the first set. You select VC 2 and ask for a TIFF. LR takes those specific instructions and the raw and renders that to produce your TIFF.
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Wieman, Andrew has given a pretty good synopsis.
To emphasize, one can create as many virtual copies from a single RAW image as one wants.
A virtual copy is an extra copy of develop instructions that are separate from the the develop instructions of the original image.
When a virtual copy is created it exactly copies the develop instructions that are extant at the time of its creation - and so, to start with it will look exactly the same as the image it was derived from.
However, any changes subsequently made to the virtual copy are confined to that virtual copy and any changes subsequently made to the original RAW image will be confined to that image and will not be reflected in the virtual copy.
Tony Jay
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One additional point, you can use the Reset button in Develop mode to reset the changes to the VC. This removes all settings you've applied since import, back to where you first saw it, after the default settings were applied.
Alan
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Yes, but...
The VC must "contain" all the edits leading up to it, but you can't see or use them. In other words the VC appears similar to a fresh import, with the earlier edit steps baked in. Cannot see why this is desirable. Can anyone suggest why it is implemented in this way?
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Yes, but...
The VC must "contain" all the edits leading up to it, but you can't see or use them. In other words the VC appears similar to a fresh import, with the earlier edit steps baked in. Cannot see why this is desirable. Can anyone suggest why it is implemented in this way?
Again, you can have it both ways depending on when/where in History you ask for the VC. The VC now draws a line in the sand by not showing you the previous history, that's all in the previous Master/VC. I suppose there could be an option to either work as it does now, OR make a VC that has all the history in it, but it might confuse a lot of users and as I said, you can have it such that the VC reflects where in the previous iteration you want to draw a line in the sand and make a new iteration. As such, why is the previous history important?
There is no duplicate command. But you could force the issue and easily with a DNG. Then you'd have the "VC" (sort of, it's got the original raw data overhead) with the history as well.
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Yes, but...
The VC must "contain" all the edits leading up to it, but you can't see or use them. In other words the VC appears similar to a fresh import, with the earlier edit steps baked in. Cannot see why this is desirable. Can anyone suggest why it is implemented in this way?
It isn't a bad question - but I think Adobe should be the one's to answer the question.
For what it is worth I have never seen the lack of a Develop history as a big problem with a newly created VC.
I can still manipulate it any way I want to without "hurting" the image - obviously the the same parametric editing paradigm still applies.
Tony Jay
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Also, if you end up with a VC that you like best of all, in the Library module you can go to Photo/Set Copy as Master.
Mike.
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Or simply create a new Snapshot...which will be added not only to the VC (all VC's) but also to the original master. Really, if you are gonna use VC's, it behooves you to learn how to use them. Note: ACR is limited to only Snapshots–LR has both VC's but also Snapshots...
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Yes, but...
The VC must "contain" all the edits leading up to it, but you can't see or use them. In other words the VC appears similar to a fresh import, with the earlier edit steps baked in.
That is simply incorrect.
If you process an image in Lightroom's Develop module and then make a Virtual Copy, the VC shows the Develop Module slider positions at the point where you created the VC. For example, if in your original edit you moved the Clarity slider to +40, then if you make a VC, it will start with the Clarity slider at +40. You can then adjust from that position as you wish.
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If you make changes to the original image and make a VC, the VC inherits those changes. But if you subsequently GO BACK to the original and make further changes, those changes DO NOT automaticaly propagate to any already existing VCs. I think that was the OPs original question.
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If you make changes to the original image and make a VC, the VC inherits those changes. But if you subsequently GO BACK to the original and make further changes, those changes DO NOT automaticaly propagate to any already existing VCs. I think that was the OPs original question.
I thought I made that crystal clear in my post.
But there you go!
Tony Jay
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Final summary; maybe:
RAW data, if this is "edited" without first making a VC, those edits will NOT appear in any subsequent VC's made from the RAW data.
If you want the first "edits", e.g. spotting to stick for subsequent VC's you first need to make a VC (#1) with the spotting edits. Subsequent VC's made from VC #1 will contain the spotting plus whatever, e.g., Hue VC #2 (with spotting) VC going back to VC #1 (with spotting edits) plus Tone Curve VC #3 (but without Hue). If you want spotting plus Tone Curve plus Contraast you take VC #3, make VC#4 and then make Contrast edits.
So how do you get spotting plus Hue plus Tone Curve plus Contrast?
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Yes, but...
The VC must "contain" all the edits leading up to it, but you can't see or use them. In other words the VC appears similar to a fresh import, with the earlier edit steps baked in.
That is simply incorrect.
If you process an image in Lightroom's Develop module and then make a Virtual Copy, the VC shows the Develop Module slider positions at the point where you created the VC. For example, if in your original edit you moved the Clarity slider to +40, then if you make a VC, it will start with the Clarity slider at +40. You can then adjust from that position as you wish.
True enough, but you could make much the same observation of the master copy.
It's no big deal, though it surprised when first I saw it. My reason for wanting it as an option is, if I think the current edit has started to wrong about "here" then I'll create a VC from that point in the history and carry on. I would prefer to be then working exactly as if I were working the original image. Just seems more logical, at least to me.
Dave
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Final summary; maybe:
RAW data, if this is "edited" without first making a VC, those edits will NOT appear in any subsequent VC's made from the RAW data.
If you want the first "edits", e.g. spotting to stick for subsequent VC's you first need to make a VC (#1) with the spotting edits. Subsequent VC's made from VC #1 will contain the spotting plus whatever, e.g., Hue VC #2 (with spotting) VC going back to VC #1 (with spotting edits) plus Tone Curve VC #3 (but without Hue). If you want spotting plus Tone Curve plus Contraast you take VC #3, make VC#4 and then make Contrast edits.
So how do you get spotting plus Hue plus Tone Curve plus Contrast?
No no
When you 'edit' the raw file in LR the file itself is not changed but rather an entry describing the edits is created in the database. When you create a virtual copy, a copy of the edit instructions is copied into another 'slot' in the database. Now there are two database records pointing to the original master raw file. You don't need 4 VC to get what you're asking for, only one. On the raw file 'master' do your spotting, adjust the hue, adjust the curve, and tweak the contrast. Now make your first VC. That VC will inherit all of the changes you have made to the master up to this point in time. Now go to your master, change its curve again and covert it to monochrome. THOSE changes will not affect the existing VC; it will still be in colour with the curve that it had when the VC was created. If your intended end result is just one image with a bunch of edits applied to it you don't need any VC at all, you just do all your editing with the original. (Since it's non-destructive you don't to worry about screwing up the raw file - if you don't like the result simply reset and start over, the actual file itself is never touched as long as you stay in LR.) VCs are for when you want to produce multiple versions of the image, like say one in colour and the other in monochrome, so you would make a VC, then edit the master for the colour version and edit the VC to make the monochrome version.
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So here is the scenario:
If you crop and spot a file, then create a VC does that include the cropping and spotting or does the VC only apply to the underlying Raw image?
You have already received several correct answers. Here is the short summary:
Once you create a VC it is completely independent of the Master. They are then just two image files in your Library.
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Here is the short summary:
Once you create a VC it is completely independent of the Master. They are then just two image files in your Library.
Except for the ability to create snapshots which ARE exchanged and exists in both records...which was the point I was trying to make, you CAN share settings between a master and a VC via snapshots.
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I know this horse is dead and ready to come back but one more whack. Let's take this to one case-the one I really meant at the beginning. I want to spot and not not have to do it over whether with a low contast version, high contrast version or b+w version. so what i am talking about is branching from the spot corrected point.
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Except for the ability to create snapshots which ARE exchanged and exists in both records...which was the point I was trying to make, you CAN share settings between a master and a VC via snapshots.
Thanks for the clarification; I did not know this. It is not in the Adobe LR 5 pdf manual (or I can't find it). Also, the same manual is missing the paragraph on making virtual copies (Create Virtual Copies). It should be on page 71.
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I want to spot and not not have to do it over whether with a low contast version, high contrast version or b+w version. so what i am talking about is branching from the spot corrected point.
You can always copy and paste those spot repairs from one image to the other. You don't have to start from scratch. Or spot the master, then make VC's. Workflow, timing important!
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Final summary; maybe:
RAW data, if this is "edited" without first making a VC, those edits will NOT appear in any subsequent VC's made from the RAW data.
If you want the first "edits", e.g. spotting to stick for subsequent VC's you first need to make a VC (#1) with the spotting edits. Subsequent VC's made from VC #1 will contain the spotting plus whatever, e.g., Hue VC #2 (with spotting) VC going back to VC #1 (with spotting edits) plus Tone Curve VC #3 (but without Hue). If you want spotting plus Tone Curve plus Contraast you take VC #3, make VC#4 and then make Contrast edits.
So how do you get spotting plus Hue plus Tone Curve plus Contrast?
Sounds like you are trying to make VC work like snapshots. I use VC more to try variations. I can always go back in history to get past basic edits before a new VCR. U may want to read up on snapshots.
I guess I'm not quite seeing your workflow goals.
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No no
When you 'edit' the raw file in LR the file itself is not changed but rather an entry describing the edits is created in the database. When you create a virtual copy, a copy of the edit instructions is copied into another 'slot' in the database. Now there are two database records pointing to the original master raw file. You don't need 4 VC to get what you're asking for, only one. On the raw file 'master' do your spotting, adjust the hue, adjust the curve, and tweak the contrast. Now make your first VC. That VC will inherit all of the changes you have made to the master up to this point in time. Now go to your master, change its curve again and covert it to monochrome. THOSE changes will not affect the existing VC; it will still be in colour with the curve that it had when the VC was created. If your intended end result is just one image with a bunch of edits applied to it you don't need any VC at all, you just do all your editing with the original. (Since it's non-destructive you don't to worry about screwing up the raw file - if you don't like the result simply reset and start over, the actual file itself is never touched as long as you stay in LR.) VCs are for when you want to produce multiple versions of the image, like say one in colour and the other in monochrome, so you would make a VC, then edit the master for the colour version and edit the VC to make the monochrome version.
I just don't think the OP has a basic understanding of how Lightroom works. Steve's explanation above is about as clear as it can be expressed (except that I would not use the term "master").